Re: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all
Wind and wave energy are the result of the conversion of solar energy into kinetic energy, i.e. the motion of molecules. Once converted into kinetic energy it's a use it or lose it proposition. Extracting kinetic energy from the atmosphere or the ocean doesn't mean it won't be replaced by more energy from sunlight. Planting more trees will also intercept winds, albeit without the electricity generation. Who funded this research? The same people who want to prevent contact with alien civilizations? I note that the Royal Society was also a party to that one too. Note to Royal Society. When you actually find something under the bed I should be afraid of, wake me up. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lockley To: geoengineering Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 8:10 Subject: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all a.. 30 March 2011 by Mark Buchanan b.. Magazine issue 2806. Subscribe and save c.. For similar stories, visit the Energy and Fuels and Climate Change Topic Guides Editorial: The sun is our only truly renewable energy source Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels and we could do as much damage to the climate as greenhouse global warming WITNESS a howling gale or an ocean storm, and it's hard to believe that humans could make a dent in the awesome natural forces that created them. Yet that is the provocative suggestion of one physicist who has done the sums. He concludes that it is a mistake to assume that energy sources like wind and waves are truly renewable. Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels, he says, and we could seriously deplete the energy available in the atmosphere, with consequences as dire as severe climate change. Axel Kleidon of the Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry in Jena, Germany, says that efforts to satisfy a large proportion of our energy needs from the wind and waves will sap a significant proportion of the usable energy available from the sun. In effect, he says, we will be depleting green energy sources. His logic rests on the laws of thermodynamics, which point inescapably to the fact that only a fraction of the solar energy reaching Earth can be exploited to generate energy we can use. When energy from the sun reaches our atmosphere, some of it drives the winds and ocean currents, and evaporates water from the ground, raising it high into the air. Much of the rest is dissipated as heat, which we cannot harness. At present, humans use only about 1 part in 10,000 of the total energy that comes to Earth from the sun. But this ratio is misleading, Kleidon says. Instead, we should be looking at how much useful energy - called free energy in the parlance of thermodynamics - is available from the global system, and our impact on that. Humans currently use energy at the rate of 47 terawatts (TW) or trillions of watts, mostly by burning fossil fuels and harvesting farmed plants, Kleidon calculates in a paper to be published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. This corresponds to roughly 5 to 10 per cent of the free energy generated by the global system. It's hard to put a precise number on the fraction, he says, but we certainly use more of the free energy than [is used by] all geological processes. In other words, we have a greater effect on Earth's energy balance than all the earthquakes, volcanoes and tectonic plate movements put together. Radical as his thesis sounds, it is being taken seriously. Kleidon is at the forefront of a new wave of research, and the potential prize is huge, says Peter Cox, who studies climate system dynamics at the University of Exeter, UK. A theory of the thermodynamics of the Earth system could help us understand the constraints on humankind's sustainable use of resources. Indeed, Kleidon's calculations have profound implications for attempts to transform our energy supply. Of the 47 TW of energy that we use, about 17 TW comes from burning fossil fuels. So to replace this, we would need to build enough sustainable energy installations to generate at least 17 TW. And because no technology can ever be perfectly efficient, some of the free energy harnessed by wind and wave generators will be lost as heat. So by setting up wind and wave farms, we convert part of the sun's useful energy into unusable heat. Large-scale exploitation of wind energy will inevitably leave an imprint in the atmosphere, says Kleidon. Because we use so much free energy, and more every year, we'll deplete the reservoir of energy. He says this would probably show up first in wind farms themselves, where the gains expected from massive facilities just won't pan out as the energy of the Earth system is depleted. Using a model of global circulation, Kleidon found that the amount of energy which we can expect to harness from the wind is reduced by a
[geo] Re: Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all
Since one of the issues w/ warming is that the atmosphere can hold more energy-- more precip, storms wilder weather-- i suppose removing some excess could be considered a form of geoengineering... The magnitude of the changes was comparable to the changes to the climate caused by doubling atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide Similar magnitude maybe, but opposite sign. As always, the answer is that we need a portfolio. Duh. BTW... isn't this an old story? Heard people talking about this a couple years ago. D On Apr 2, 6:15 am, Alvia Gaskill agask...@nc.rr.com wrote: Wind and wave energy are the result of the conversion of solar energy into kinetic energy, i.e. the motion of molecules. Once converted into kinetic energy it's a use it or lose it proposition. Extracting kinetic energy from the atmosphere or the ocean doesn't mean it won't be replaced by more energy from sunlight. Planting more trees will also intercept winds, albeit without the electricity generation. Who funded this research? The same people who want to prevent contact with alien civilizations? I note that the Royal Society was also a party to that one too. Note to Royal Society. When you actually find something under the bed I should be afraid of, wake me up. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lockley To: geoengineering Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 8:10 Subject: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all a.. 30 March 2011 by Mark Buchanan b.. Magazine issue 2806. Subscribe and save c.. For similar stories, visit the Energy and Fuels and Climate Change Topic Guides Editorial: The sun is our only truly renewable energy source Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels and we could do as much damage to the climate as greenhouse global warming WITNESS a howling gale or an ocean storm, and it's hard to believe that humans could make a dent in the awesome natural forces that created them. Yet that is the provocative suggestion of one physicist who has done the sums. He concludes that it is a mistake to assume that energy sources like wind and waves are truly renewable. Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels, he says, and we could seriously deplete the energy available in the atmosphere, with consequences as dire as severe climate change. Axel Kleidon of the Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry in Jena, Germany, says that efforts to satisfy a large proportion of our energy needs from the wind and waves will sap a significant proportion of the usable energy available from the sun. In effect, he says, we will be depleting green energy sources. His logic rests on the laws of thermodynamics, which point inescapably to the fact that only a fraction of the solar energy reaching Earth can be exploited to generate energy we can use. When energy from the sun reaches our atmosphere, some of it drives the winds and ocean currents, and evaporates water from the ground, raising it high into the air. Much of the rest is dissipated as heat, which we cannot harness. At present, humans use only about 1 part in 10,000 of the total energy that comes to Earth from the sun. But this ratio is misleading, Kleidon says. Instead, we should be looking at how much useful energy - called free energy in the parlance of thermodynamics - is available from the global system, and our impact on that. Humans currently use energy at the rate of 47 terawatts (TW) or trillions of watts, mostly by burning fossil fuels and harvesting farmed plants, Kleidon calculates in a paper to be published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. This corresponds to roughly 5 to 10 per cent of the free energy generated by the global system. It's hard to put a precise number on the fraction, he says, but we certainly use more of the free energy than [is used by] all geological processes. In other words, we have a greater effect on Earth's energy balance than all the earthquakes, volcanoes and tectonic plate movements put together. Radical as his thesis sounds, it is being taken seriously. Kleidon is at the forefront of a new wave of research, and the potential prize is huge, says Peter Cox, who studies climate system dynamics at the University of Exeter, UK. A theory of the thermodynamics of the Earth system could help us understand the constraints on humankind's sustainable use of resources. Indeed, Kleidon's calculations have profound implications for attempts to transform our energy supply. Of the 47 TW of energy that we use, about 17 TW comes from burning fossil fuels. So to replace this, we would need to build enough sustainable energy installations to generate at least 17 TW. And because no technology can ever be perfectly efficient, some of the free energy harnessed by wind and wave generators
Re: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all
Andrew Most of the energy in waves is at present dissipated as heat in water and sand at the beach. Data on the North Atlantic wave climate combined with the flow of the North Atlantic Drift suggest an increase in temperature on the beach by about 1/50 of a degree Celsius. If we built very efficient wave plant all the way along the coast we might reduce the temperature increase to 1/100 of a degree. But as we would be using the wave-generated electricity in homes and factories, most will end up warming the prevailing wind which is exchanging heat with the sea. The overall effect is a short diversion. Onshore wind turbines do produce a detectable increase in the evaporation rate of ground water leading to a lower river run-off and we should expect offshore wind turbines to increase evaporation from the sea which ought to restore run-off. It may be possible to design floating wind-driven machines which produce no electricity but put all the energy they extract into increasing the turbulence of the lower atmosphere over the sea. This should produce more rainfall down wind. Stephen Emeritus Professor of Engineering Design Institute for Energy Systems School of Engineering Mayfield Road University of Edinburgh EH9 3JL Scotland Tel +44 131 650 5704 Mobile 07795 203 195 www.see.ed.ac.uk/~shs On 02/04/2011 14:15, Alvia Gaskill wrote: Wind and wave energy are the result of the conversion of solar energy into kinetic energy, i.e. the motion of molecules. Once converted into kinetic energy it's a use it or lose it proposition. Extracting kinetic energy from the atmosphere or the ocean doesn't mean it won't be replaced by more energy from sunlight. Planting more trees will also intercept winds, albeit without the electricity generation. Who funded this research? The same people who want to prevent contact with alien civilizations? I note that the Royal Society was also a party to that one too. Note to Royal Society. When you actually find something under the bed I should be afraid of, wake me up. - Original Message - *From:* Andrew Lockley mailto:and...@andrewlockley.com *To:* geoengineering mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Friday, April 01, 2011 8:10 *Subject:* [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all * 30 March 2011 by *Mark Buchanan* http://www.newscientist.com/search?rbauthors=Mark+Buchanan * Magazine issue 2806 http://www.newscientist.com/issue/2806. *Subscribe and save* http://www.newscientist.com/subscribe?promcode=nsarttop * For similar stories, visit the *Energy and Fuels* http://www.newscientist.com/topic/energy-fuels and *Climate Change* http://www.newscientist.com/topic/climate-change Topic Guides *Editorial: *The sun is our only truly renewable energy source http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028062.500-the-sun-is-our-only-truly-renewable-energy-source.html /Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels and we could do as much damage to the climate as greenhouse global warming/ WITNESS a howling gale or an ocean storm, and it's hard to believe that humans could make a dent in the awesome natural forces that created them. Yet that is the provocative suggestion of one physicist who has done the sums. He concludes that it is a mistake to assume that energy sources like wind and waves are truly renewable. Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels, he says, and we could seriously deplete the energy available in the atmosphere, with consequences as dire as severe climate change. Axel Kleidon of the Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry in Jena, Germany, says that efforts to satisfy a large proportion of our energy needs from the wind and waves will sap a significant proportion of the usable energy available from the sun. In effect, he says, we will be depleting green energy sources. His logic rests on the laws of thermodynamics, which point inescapably to the fact that only a fraction of the solar energy reaching Earth can be exploited to generate energy we can use. When energy from the sun reaches our atmosphere, some of it drives the winds and ocean currents, and evaporates water from the ground, raising it high into the air. Much of the rest is dissipated as heat, which we cannot harness. At present, humans use only about 1 part in 10,000 of the total energy that comes to Earth from the sun. But this ratio is misleading, Kleidon says. Instead, we should be looking at how much useful energy - called free energy in the parlance of thermodynamics - is available from the global system, and our impact on that. Humans currently use energy at the rate of 47 terawatts (TW) or trillions of watts, mostly by burning
Re: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all
My reading of the article suggested that the authors of the study were principally claiming that wind has an impact on climate, so it is already being used. What wasn't clear from the article was *what type* of impact reducing the energy level of winds all over the globe through the prolific use of wind turbines might have. In a warming world, I understand we should expect stronger winds. On a simplistic generalized level that might not be relevant to local climate, slowing those stronger winds down might have an ameliorating effect on climate change. Hence the claim that *The magnitude of the changes was comparable to the changes to the climate caused by doubling atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide* might not be as bad as it is made to seem. As usually, I'm grasping at straws, but as a layman, that's what stood out for me. Nando On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Alvia Gaskill agask...@nc.rr.com wrote: Wind and wave energy are the result of the conversion of solar energy into kinetic energy, i.e. the motion of molecules. Once converted into kinetic energy it's a use it or lose it proposition. Extracting kinetic energy from the atmosphere or the ocean doesn't mean it won't be replaced by more energy from sunlight. Planting more trees will also intercept winds, albeit without the electricity generation. Who funded this research? The same people who want to prevent contact with alien civilizations? I note that the Royal Society was also a party to that one too. Note to Royal Society. When you actually find something under the bed I should be afraid of, wake me up. - Original Message - *From:* Andrew Lockley and...@andrewlockley.com *To:* geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Friday, April 01, 2011 8:10 *Subject:* [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all - 30 March 2011 by *Mark Buchanan*http://www.newscientist.com/search?rbauthors=Mark+Buchanan - Magazine issue 2806 http://www.newscientist.com/issue/2806. *Subscribe and save* http://www.newscientist.com/subscribe?promcode=nsarttop - For similar stories, visit the *Energy and Fuels*http://www.newscientist.com/topic/energy-fuels and *Climate Change*http://www.newscientist.com/topic/climate-change Topic Guides *Editorial: *The sun is our only truly renewable energy sourcehttp://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028062.500-the-sun-is-our-only-truly-renewable-energy-source.html *Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels and we could do as much damage to the climate as greenhouse global warming* WITNESS a howling gale or an ocean storm, and it's hard to believe that humans could make a dent in the awesome natural forces that created them. Yet that is the provocative suggestion of one physicist who has done the sums. He concludes that it is a mistake to assume that energy sources like wind and waves are truly renewable. Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels, he says, and we could seriously deplete the energy available in the atmosphere, with consequences as dire as severe climate change. Axel Kleidon of the Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry in Jena, Germany, says that efforts to satisfy a large proportion of our energy needs from the wind and waves will sap a significant proportion of the usable energy available from the sun. In effect, he says, we will be depleting green energy sources. His logic rests on the laws of thermodynamics, which point inescapably to the fact that only a fraction of the solar energy reaching Earth can be exploited to generate energy we can use. When energy from the sun reaches our atmosphere, some of it drives the winds and ocean currents, and evaporates water from the ground, raising it high into the air. Much of the rest is dissipated as heat, which we cannot harness. At present, humans use only about 1 part in 10,000 of the total energy that comes to Earth from the sun. But this ratio is misleading, Kleidon says. Instead, we should be looking at how much useful energy - called free energy in the parlance of thermodynamics - is available from the global system, and our impact on that. Humans currently use energy at the rate of 47 terawatts (TW) or trillions of watts, mostly by burning fossil fuels and harvesting farmed plants, Kleidon calculates in a paper to be published in *Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society* http://arxiv.org/abs/1103.2014. This corresponds to roughly 5 to 10 per cent of the free energy generated by the global system. It's hard to put a precise number on the fraction, he says, but we certainly use more of the free energy than [is used by] all geological processes. In other words, we have a greater effect on Earth's energy balance than all the earthquakes, volcanoes and tectonic plate movements put together. Radical as his thesis sounds, it is being taken seriously.
Re: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all
Indeed, the authors do not appear to understand that a watt (joule/second) is a rate of energy conversion, not a unit of energy. If energy is converted slower here, there is more to convert there. A more interesting line of inquiry is the evaporation effect of slowing down surface wind (but not upper lever wind). Also re protecting crops from extreme wind damage etcthe significant effect of wind turbines is to thicken the boundary layer. John Duke - Original Message - From: Alvia Gaskill To: andrew.lock...@gmail.com ; geoengineering Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all Wind and wave energy are the result of the conversion of solar energy into kinetic energy, i.e. the motion of molecules. Once converted into kinetic energy it's a use it or lose it proposition. Extracting kinetic energy from the atmosphere or the ocean doesn't mean it won't be replaced by more energy from sunlight. Planting more trees will also intercept winds, albeit without the electricity generation. Who funded this research? The same people who want to prevent contact with alien civilizations? I note that the Royal Society was also a party to that one too. Note to Royal Society. When you actually find something under the bed I should be afraid of, wake me up. - Original Message - From: Andrew Lockley To: geoengineering Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 8:10 Subject: [geo] Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all Wind and wave energies are not renewable after all a.. 30 March 2011 by Mark Buchanan b.. Magazine issue 2806. Subscribe and save c.. For similar stories, visit the Energy and Fuels and Climate Change Topic Guides Editorial: The sun is our only truly renewable energy source Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels and we could do as much damage to the climate as greenhouse global warming WITNESS a howling gale or an ocean storm, and it's hard to believe that humans could make a dent in the awesome natural forces that created them. Yet that is the provocative suggestion of one physicist who has done the sums. He concludes that it is a mistake to assume that energy sources like wind and waves are truly renewable. Build enough wind farms to replace fossil fuels, he says, and we could seriously deplete the energy available in the atmosphere, with consequences as dire as severe climate change. Axel Kleidon of the Max Planck Institute for Biogeochemistry in Jena, Germany, says that efforts to satisfy a large proportion of our energy needs from the wind and waves will sap a significant proportion of the usable energy available from the sun. In effect, he says, we will be depleting green energy sources. His logic rests on the laws of thermodynamics, which point inescapably to the fact that only a fraction of the solar energy reaching Earth can be exploited to generate energy we can use. When energy from the sun reaches our atmosphere, some of it drives the winds and ocean currents, and evaporates water from the ground, raising it high into the air. Much of the rest is dissipated as heat, which we cannot harness. At present, humans use only about 1 part in 10,000 of the total energy that comes to Earth from the sun. But this ratio is misleading, Kleidon says. Instead, we should be looking at how much useful energy - called free energy in the parlance of thermodynamics - is available from the global system, and our impact on that. Humans currently use energy at the rate of 47 terawatts (TW) or trillions of watts, mostly by burning fossil fuels and harvesting farmed plants, Kleidon calculates in a paper to be published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. This corresponds to roughly 5 to 10 per cent of the free energy generated by the global system. It's hard to put a precise number on the fraction, he says, but we certainly use more of the free energy than [is used by] all geological processes. In other words, we have a greater effect on Earth's energy balance than all the earthquakes, volcanoes and tectonic plate movements put together. Radical as his thesis sounds, it is being taken seriously. Kleidon is at the forefront of a new wave of research, and the potential prize is huge, says Peter Cox, who studies climate system dynamics at the University of Exeter, UK. A theory of the thermodynamics of the Earth system could help us understand the constraints on humankind's sustainable use of resources. Indeed, Kleidon's calculations have profound implications for attempts to transform our energy supply. Of the 47 TW of energy that we use, about 17 TW comes from burning fossil fuels. So to replace this, we would need to build enough sustainable energy installations to generate at least 17 TW. And because no technology can ever be perfectly efficient,
