RE: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News
Re: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News North Atlantic Deep Water (NADW) is thought to primarily form in the open ocean and does not originate from the brine coming off the bottom of sea ice. Peter Peter Flynn, P. Eng., Ph. D. Emeritus Professor and Poole Chair in Management for Engineers Department of Mechanical Engineering University of Alberta peter.fl...@ualberta.ca cell: 928 451 4455 *From:* geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto: geoengineering@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike MacCracken *Sent:* September-23-14 6:32 PM *To:* Ken Caldeira; Greg Rau *Cc:* Andrew Lockley; Geoengineering; soeren.rysga...@ad.umanitoba.ca *Subject:* Re: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News In my reading, the wording was very confusing. Reading more carefully, it seemed to me that they were saying that there will be less CO2 in the ocean as a result of melting back of the sea ice. An open Arctic with no sea ice formation would imply less down-welling due to not forming dense brine pockets, so one mechanism would be a consequence of that, and another might be due to the greater stability of the ocean in the warm season. I did not read the paper, but, once I got past some unclear wording, the sign sort of made sense. Mike On 9/23/14 1:52 PM, Ken Caldeira kcalde...@carnegiescience.edu wrote: Agree with Greg. If there is any net effect of this process at all (relative to the no-ice situation) then quantitatively it must be tiny tiny tiny. If the alkalinity represented by the Ca2+ in the CaCO3 was in the surface ocean with no ice, that would tend to draw CO2 into the ocean. ___ Ken Caldeira Carnegie Institution for Science Dept of Global Ecology 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA +1 650 704 7212 kcalde...@carnegiescience.edu http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab https://twitter.com/KenCaldeira Assistant: Dawn Ross dr...@carnegiescience.edu On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:45 AM, Rau, Greg r...@llnl.gov wrote: A new study has revealed that Arctic Sea ice helps remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and its depletion would result in an increase of atmospheric concentration of the gas. [?!] How does removing CO2 from air increase air CO2 concentrations? Anyway, can believe that CaCO3 precipitates and CO2 is generated as seawater freezes and brine is formed: Ca(HCO3)2aq --- CaCO3s + CO2g + H2O. But whether the CO2 is then subducted with the sinking brine or degasses to the atmosphere would seem critical to the air/ocean CO2 budget. That some CaCO3s is entrained in the the ice seems logical, but how the preceding reaction is reversed to consume this carbonate and CO2 is unclear. There would need to be a way to concentrate CO2 to generate H2CO3 to then consume the CaCO3s to (re)make Ca(HCO3)2aq. How does that happen? Anyway, if it does happen this would seem to offer a new explanation for glacial/ interglacial CO2 variations, not to mention a new method of modern day CDR - bomb sea ice sheets with limestone particles. Beneficial chemtrails on ice ;-) Greg -- *From:* geoengineering@googlegroups.com [geoengineering@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Andrew Lockley [andrew.lock...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:56 AM *To:* geoengineering *Subject:* [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News http://zeenews.india.com/news/eco-news/arctic-sea-ice-depletion-to-result-in-rise-of-co2-in-atmosphere_1474406.html Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere Last Updated: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 12:38 Washington: A new study has revealed that Arctic Sea ice helps remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and its depletion would result in an increase of atmospheric concentration of the gas. Dorte Haubjerg Sogaard, PhD Fellow, Nordic Center for Earth Evolution, University of Southern Denmark and the Greenland Institute of Natural Resources, Nuuk, said that if their results are representative, then sea ice plays a greater role than expected, and we should take this into account in future global CO2 budgets. The researchers said that they have long known that the Earth's oceans are able to absorb huge amounts of CO2. But they also thought that this did not apply to ocean areas covered by ice, because the ice was considered impenetrable. However, this is not true, as the new research shows that sea ice in the Arctic draws large amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere into the ocean. Sogaard said that the chemical removal of CO2 in sea ice occurs in two phases. First crystals of calcium carbonate are formed in sea ice in winter. During this formation CO2 splits off and is dissolved in a heavy cold brine, which gets squeezed out of the ice and sinks into the deeper parts of the ocean. Calcium carbonate cannot move as freely as CO2 and therefore it stays in the sea ice. In summer, when the sea ice
Re: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News
However, briny water does increase vertical mixing (and sea ice forms not only in the Arctic, but in the far northern Atlantic, etc.), countering the effects of stratification that would limit vertical exchange of CO2. Mike On 9/23/14 7:34 PM, Peter Flynn peter.fl...@ualberta.ca wrote: North Atlantic Deep Water (NADW) is thought to primarily form in the open ocean and does not originate from the brine coming off the bottom of sea ice. Peter Peter Flynn, P. Eng., Ph. D. Emeritus Professor and Poole Chair in Management for Engineers Department of Mechanical Engineering University of Alberta peter.fl...@ualberta.ca mailto:peter.fl...@ualberta.ca cell: 928 451 4455 From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike MacCracken Sent: September-23-14 6:32 PM To: Ken Caldeira; Greg Rau Cc: Andrew Lockley; Geoengineering; soeren.rysga...@ad.umanitoba.ca Subject: Re: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News In my reading, the wording was very confusing. Reading more carefully, it seemed to me that they were saying that there will be less CO2 in the ocean as a result of melting back of the sea ice. An open Arctic with no sea ice formation would imply less down-welling due to not forming dense brine pockets, so one mechanism would be a consequence of that, and another might be due to the greater stability of the ocean in the warm season. I did not read the paper, but, once I got past some unclear wording, the sign sort of made sense. Mike On 9/23/14 1:52 PM, Ken Caldeira kcalde...@carnegiescience.edu wrote: Agree with Greg. If there is any net effect of this process at all (relative to the no-ice situation) then quantitatively it must be tiny tiny tiny. If the alkalinity represented by the Ca2+ in the CaCO3 was in the surface ocean with no ice, that would tend to draw CO2 into the ocean. ___ Ken Caldeira Carnegie Institution for Science Dept of Global Ecology 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA +1 650 704 7212 kcalde...@carnegiescience.edu http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab https://twitter.com/KenCaldeira Assistant: Dawn Ross dr...@carnegiescience.edu On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:45 AM, Rau, Greg r...@llnl.gov wrote: A new study has revealed that Arctic Sea ice helps remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and its depletion would result in an increase of atmospheric concentration of the gas. [?!] How does removing CO2 from air increase air CO2 concentrations? Anyway, can believe that CaCO3 precipitates and CO2 is generated as seawater freezes and brine is formed: Ca(HCO3)2aq --- CaCO3s + CO2g + H2O. But whether the CO2 is then subducted with the sinking brine or degasses to the atmosphere would seem critical to the air/ocean CO2 budget. That some CaCO3s is entrained in the the ice seems logical, but how the preceding reaction is reversed to consume this carbonate and CO2 is unclear. There would need to be a way to concentrate CO2 to generate H2CO3 to then consume the CaCO3s to (re)make Ca(HCO3)2aq. How does that happen? Anyway, if it does happen this would seem to offer a new explanation for glacial/ interglacial CO2 variations, not to mention a new method of modern day CDR - bomb sea ice sheets with limestone particles. Beneficial chemtrails on ice ;-) Greg From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com [geoengineering@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Andrew Lockley [andrew.lock...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:56 AM To: geoengineering Subject: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News http://zeenews.india.com/news/eco-news/arctic-sea-ice-depletion-to-result-in-r ise-of-co2-in-atmosphere_1474406.html Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere Last Updated: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 12:38 Washington: A new study has revealed that Arctic Sea ice helps remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and its depletion would result in an increase of atmospheric concentration of the gas. Dorte Haubjerg Sogaard, PhD Fellow, Nordic Center for Earth Evolution, University of Southern Denmark and the Greenland Institute of Natural Resources, Nuuk, said that if their results are representative, then sea ice plays a greater role than expected, and we should take this into account in future global CO2 budgets. The researchers said that they have long known that the Earth's oceans are able to absorb huge amounts of CO2. But they also thought that this did not apply to ocean areas covered by ice, because the ice was considered impenetrable. However, this is not true, as the new research shows that sea ice in the Arctic draws large amounts of CO2 from the atmosphere into the ocean. Sogaard said that the chemical removal of CO2 in sea ice occurs in two phases. First crystals of calcium carbonate are formed in
RE: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News
If you have discovered a widespread, natural surface ocean process that causes supersaturation with respect to air CO2 to the point of forcing CaCO3aq undersaturation, and hence CaCO3s dissolution and CO2 conversion to Ca(HCO3)2aq, that is quite an observation. However, I'd need to see a full carbon chemistry workup of the affected seawater/brine/ice to be convinced. Greg From: Soeren Rysgaard [soeren.rysga...@umanitoba.ca] Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2014 5:44 AM To: Peter Flynn Cc: mmacc...@comcast.net; Ken Caldeira; Rau, Greg; Andrew Lockley; Geoengineering Subject: Re: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News Hi all We have evidence that brine rejected in NE Greenland on the shelf enters the intermediate and sometimes deeper water layers. We are currently investigating if they carry with them CO2 rich water. We have more papers coming up, but attached are some previous ones. best Søren On Sep 24, 2014, at 4:34 AM, Peter Flynn peter.fl...@ualberta.camailto:peter.fl...@ualberta.ca wrote: North Atlantic Deep Water (NADW) is thought to primarily form in the open ocean and does not originate from the brine coming off the bottom of sea ice. Peter Peter Flynn, P. Eng., Ph. D. Emeritus Professor and Poole Chair in Management for Engineers Department of Mechanical Engineering University of Alberta peter.fl...@ualberta.camailto:peter.fl...@ualberta.ca cell: 928 451 4455 From: geoengineering@googlegroups.commailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.commailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike MacCracken Sent: September-23-14 6:32 PM To: Ken Caldeira; Greg Rau Cc: Andrew Lockley; Geoengineering; soeren.rysga...@ad.umanitoba.camailto:soeren.rysga...@ad.umanitoba.ca Subject: Re: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News In my reading, the wording was very confusing. Reading more carefully, it seemed to me that they were saying that there will be less CO2 in the ocean as a result of melting back of the sea ice. An open Arctic with no sea ice formation would imply less down-welling due to not forming dense brine pockets, so one mechanism would be a consequence of that, and another might be due to the greater stability of the ocean in the warm season. I did not read the paper, but, once I got past some unclear wording, the sign sort of made sense. Mike On 9/23/14 1:52 PM, Ken Caldeira kcalde...@carnegiescience.eduUrlBlockedError.aspx wrote: Agree with Greg. If there is any net effect of this process at all (relative to the no-ice situation) then quantitatively it must be tiny tiny tiny. If the alkalinity represented by the Ca2+ in the CaCO3 was in the surface ocean with no ice, that would tend to draw CO2 into the ocean. ___ Ken Caldeira Carnegie Institution for Science Dept of Global Ecology 260 Panama Street, Stanford, CA 94305 USA +1 650 704 7212 kcalde...@carnegiescience.eduUrlBlockedError.aspx http://dge.stanford.edu/labs/caldeiralab https://twitter.com/KenCaldeira Assistant: Dawn Ross dr...@carnegiescience.eduUrlBlockedError.aspx On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:45 AM, Rau, Greg r...@llnl.govUrlBlockedError.aspx wrote: A new study has revealed that Arctic Sea ice helps remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and its depletion would result in an increase of atmospheric concentration of the gas. [?!] How does removing CO2 from air increase air CO2 concentrations? Anyway, can believe that CaCO3 precipitates and CO2 is generated as seawater freezes and brine is formed: Ca(HCO3)2aq --- CaCO3s + CO2g + H2O. But whether the CO2 is then subducted with the sinking brine or degasses to the atmosphere would seem critical to the air/ocean CO2 budget. That some CaCO3s is entrained in the the ice seems logical, but how the preceding reaction is reversed to consume this carbonate and CO2 is unclear. There would need to be a way to concentrate CO2 to generate H2CO3 to then consume the CaCO3s to (re)make Ca(HCO3)2aq. How does that happen? Anyway, if it does happen this would seem to offer a new explanation for glacial/ interglacial CO2 variations, not to mention a new method of modern day CDR - bomb sea ice sheets with limestone particles. Beneficial chemtrails on ice ;-) Greg From: geoengineering@googlegroups.comUrlBlockedError.aspx [geoengineering@googlegroups.comUrlBlockedError.aspx] on behalf of Andrew Lockley [andrew.lock...@gmail.comUrlBlockedError.aspx] Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:56 AM To: geoengineering Subject: [geo] Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere | Zee News http://zeenews.india.com/news/eco-news/arctic-sea-ice-depletion-to-result-in-rise-of-co2-in-atmosphere_1474406.html Arctic sea ice depletion to result in rise of CO2 in atmosphere Last Updated: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 - 12:38 Washington:
