Re: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk.
In his 2010 book* Requiem For a Species *Clive accepts and cites the Alice Bows/Kevin Anderson view that civilization as we know it is almost certainly committed as of now to an unstable 4 degree warming this century, and that change of that magnitude threatens its existence. (Anderson explains his views here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RInrvSjW90U. Clive himself sums up his 2010 book from minute 6:45 in this video, i.e. here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mccKiZ9AfE) The surprise for me, given that Clive believes it likely that civilization has already committed itself to destruction is the fact that despite his claim to the contrary, he really does seem to oppose all research into geoE. Otherwise he would be putting forward a proposal to deal with his concerns rather than endlessly repeating his list of questions in any forum he can find. Greg Rau wrote: Clive... made a startling prediction that, given the relatively low cost, he anticipated that SRM will be done in 30-40 years by one or more developing countries desperate to counter the climate change wreaked on them by the developed world's CO2. That seems an admission that more conventional actions won't work by then, -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk.
Greg etal Thanks for the report. Three areas of questions 1. The message below yours by Vivian Warkentin only uses the term geoengineering - never SRM and CDR. How well did Hamilton and Caldeira explain the differences and only use the more specific meanings of all three? Same for audience - if questions were part of the program? 2. You use the term climate manipulation below. Was that term used and is it the same as geoengineering. Would this assembled group last night have voted to preclude RD on all CDR (and especially afforestation and biochar)? 3. Do you feel the anti-geoengineering folk had any minds changed over anything said? Ron - Original Message - From: RAU greg gh...@sbcglobal.net To: andrew lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.com, geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com, Ken Caldeira kcalde...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 11:50:52 PM Subject: Re: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk. Thanks for the warning, Andrew, but I risked going anyway without my body guards, and glad I did. The chem trail folks were indeed there and at times voiced their agitation over perceived major sky hacking already ongoing, but neither Ken nor Clive accommodated their fears. I think the debate really boiled down to whether or not humans can be trusted with researching and managing climate manipulation. Clive's view seems to be no. On the other hand, he made a startling prediction that, given the relatively low cost, he anticipated that SRM will be done in 30-40 years by one or more developing countries desperate to counter the climate change wreaked on them by the developed world's CO2. That seems an admission that more conventional actions won't work by then, and argues that in the meantime nations must come together to scientifically evaluate whether or not SRM is a viable, safe option before rogue states take matters into their own hands. Ken did a good job in arguing for a rational, open evaluation of the technology and in defusing the Dr. Strangelove persona that the chemtrailers were expecting. Anyway, I think it was an informative evening for the audience, and Earth Island Institute is to be commended for bravely hosting discussion on this important topic. It was nearly a full house; I'd say there were 90 people in attendance. Anyone else from this list? Greg From: Andrew Lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.com To: geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com; Ken Caldeira kcalde...@gmail.com Sent: Mon, May 6, 2013 12:47:46 AM Subject: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk. Poster's note : see bottom of below piece for info on rally. Suggest that any well known researchers avoid the area. May be worth asking police to attend. I would advise searching audience for concealed arms before allowing entry. http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2013-05-03/article/41048?headline=Hack-the-Sky---Vivian-Warkentin Public Comment New: Hack the Sky? Vivian Warkentin Sunday May 05, 2013 - 05:54:00 PM On May 9th, 7:00PM at the Brower Center, 2150 Allston way in Berkeley, corporate, billionaire- backed geoengineer, Ken Caldiera will be laying out the scientists' plans to mitigate global warming by blocking sunlight from the earth with chemical jet aerosols, such as sulphur dioxide and aluminum oxide dust. Earth Island Institute, the sponsor of this debate, is calling the event, Hack the Sky? An ethicist, not a scientist, has been chosen to debate Caldiera. Is the Earth Island Institute telling us there are no scientific arguments against this scheme? Arguments like: These chemical dusts will fall to earth to be absorbed and breathed by humans and all living things. The sun gives the earth life. Sunlight is necessary for plants to perform photosynthesis which takes carbon out of the atmosphere. The sun is the source of vitamin D required for human health. I for one, would like to hear from some forestry scientists, soil scientists, ocean scientists, biologists, botanists, entomologists, and non corporate atmospheric scientists. It is time for those who truly care about the environment to question blind trust in scientists and for that matter established environmental organizations. Science at our Universities is sponsored and directed by corporations now. Corporations have discovered that the best way to control environmentalists is to fund them. It seems that the neo environmentalists are running the environmental wing of the global war on terror, scaring us into all sorts of banker, developer, corporation, scientist enriching schemes ala disaster capitalism. I know there are plenty of well meaning caring people working with these groups, but has fear numbed their critical thinking? Geoengineering is massive pollution of the earth and it's inhabitants, and nothing less than the corporate scientific
Re: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk.
Answers below - Greg From: rongretlar...@comcast.net rongretlar...@comcast.net To: gh...@sbcglobal.net Cc: andrew lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.com; geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com; Ken Caldeira kcalde...@gmail.com Sent: Fri, May 10, 2013 9:47:18 AM Subject: Re: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk. Greg etal Thanks for the report. Three areas of questions 1. The message below yours by Vivian Warkentin only uses the term geoengineering - never SRM and CDR. How well did Hamilton and Caldeira explain the differences and only use the more specific meanings of all three? Same for audience - if questions were part of the program? Ken distinguished between the two and emphasize fewer issues with CDR. I'm not sure Clive believes this, instead lumping both into the potentially dangerous category when managed by humans at global scales. Private funding of RD and patenting is a big issue with him, i.e. loss of societal control of technology. 2. You use the term climate manipulation below. Was that term used and is it the same as geoengineering. Would this assembled group last night have voted to preclude RD on all CDR (and especially afforestation and biochar)? Don't remember manipulation being specifically used. No vote was taken, but my sense was that the audience in general left with opened minds on the topic. 3. Do you feel the anti-geoengineering folk had any minds changed over anything said? Not sure those folks had there minds changed, but I think those on the fence got a better understanding of the issues and why GE needs to be on the table. Ron From: RAU greg gh...@sbcglobal.net To: andrew lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.com, geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com, Ken Caldeira kcalde...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, May 9, 2013 11:50:52 PM Subject: Re: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk. Thanks for the warning, Andrew, but I risked going anyway without my body guards, and glad I did. The chem trail folks were indeed there and at times voiced their agitation over perceived major sky hacking already ongoing, but neither Ken nor Clive accommodated their fears. I think the debate really boiled down to whether or not humans can be trusted with researching and managing climate manipulation. Clive's view seems to be no. On the other hand, he made a startling prediction that, given the relatively low cost, he anticipated that SRM will be done in 30-40 years by one or more developing countries desperate to counter the climate change wreaked on them by the developed world's CO2. That seems an admission that more conventional actions won't work by then, and argues that in the meantime nations must come together to scientifically evaluate whether or not SRM is a viable, safe option before rogue states take matters into their own hands. Ken did a good job in arguing for a rational, open evaluation of the technology and in defusing the Dr. Strangelove persona that the chemtrailers were expecting. Anyway, I think it was an informative evening for the audience, and Earth Island Institute is to be commended for bravely hosting discussion on this important topic. It was nearly a full house; I'd say there were 90 people in attendance. Anyone else from this list? Greg From: Andrew Lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.com To: geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com; Ken Caldeira kcalde...@gmail.com Sent: Mon, May 6, 2013 12:47:46 AM Subject: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk. Poster's note : see bottom of below piece for info on rally. Suggest that any well known researchers avoid the area. May be worth asking police to attend. I would advise searching audience for concealed arms before allowing entry. http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2013-05-03/article/41048?headline=Hack-the-Sky---Vivian-Warkentin Public Comment New: Hack the Sky? Vivian Warkentin Sunday May 05, 2013 - 05:54:00 PM On May 9th, 7:00PM at the Brower Center, 2150 Allston way in Berkeley, corporate, billionaire- backed geoengineer, Ken Caldiera will be laying out the scientists' plans to mitigate global warming by blocking sunlight from the earth with chemical jet aerosols, such as sulphur dioxide and aluminum oxide dust. Earth Island Institute, the sponsor of this debate, is calling the event, Hack the Sky? An ethicist, not a scientist, has been chosen to debate Caldiera. Is the Earth Island Institute telling us there are no scientific arguments against this scheme? Arguments like: These chemical dusts will fall to earth to be absorbed and breathed by humans and all living things. The sun gives the earth life. Sunlight is necessary for plants to perform photosynthesis
Re: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk.
Thanks for the warning, Andrew, but I risked going anyway without my body guards, and glad I did. The chem trail folks were indeed there and at times voiced their agitation over perceived major sky hacking already ongoing, but neither Ken nor Clive accommodated their fears. I think the debate really boiled down to whether or not humans can be trusted with researching and managing climate manipulation. Clive's view seems to be no. On the other hand, he made a startling prediction that, given the relatively low cost, he anticipated that SRM will be done in 30-40 years by one or more developing countries desperate to counter the climate change wreaked on them by the developed world's CO2. That seems an admission that more conventional actions won't work by then, and argues that in the meantime nations must come together to scientifically evaluate whether or not SRM is a viable, safe option before rogue states take matters into their own hands. Ken did a good job in arguing for a rational, open evaluation of the technology and in defusing the Dr. Strangelove persona that the chemtrailers were expecting. Anyway, I think it was an informative evening for the audience, and Earth Island Institute is to be commended for bravely hosting discussion on this important topic. It was nearly a full house; I'd say there were 90 people in attendance. Anyone else from this list? Greg From: Andrew Lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.com To: geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com; Ken Caldeira kcalde...@gmail.com Sent: Mon, May 6, 2013 12:47:46 AM Subject: [geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk. Poster's note : see bottom of below piece for info on rally. Suggest that any well known researchers avoid the area. May be worth asking police to attend. I would advise searching audience for concealed arms before allowing entry. http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2013-05-03/article/41048?headline=Hack-the-Sky---Vivian-Warkentin Public Comment New: Hack the Sky? Vivian Warkentin Sunday May 05, 2013 - 05:54:00 PM On May 9th, 7:00PM at the Brower Center, 2150 Allston way in Berkeley, corporate, billionaire- backed geoengineer, Ken Caldiera will be laying out the scientists' plans to mitigate global warming by blocking sunlight from the earth with chemical jet aerosols, such as sulphur dioxide and aluminum oxide dust. Earth Island Institute, the sponsor of this debate, is calling the event, Hack the Sky? An ethicist, not a scientist, has been chosen to debate Caldiera. Is the Earth Island Institute telling us there are no scientific arguments against this scheme? Arguments like: These chemical dusts will fall to earth to be absorbed and breathed by humans and all living things. The sun gives the earth life. Sunlight is necessary for plants to perform photosynthesis which takes carbon out of the atmosphere. The sun is the source of vitamin D required for human health. I for one, would like to hear from some forestry scientists, soil scientists, ocean scientists, biologists, botanists, entomologists, and non corporate atmospheric scientists. It is time for those who truly care about the environment to question blind trust in scientists and for that matter established environmental organizations. Science at our Universities is sponsored and directed by corporations now. Corporations have discovered that the best way to control environmentalists is to fund them. It seems that the neo environmentalists are running the environmental wing of the global war on terror, scaring us into all sorts of banker, developer, corporation, scientist enriching schemes ala disaster capitalism. I know there are plenty of well meaning caring people working with these groups, but has fear numbed their critical thinking? Geoengineering is massive pollution of the earth and it's inhabitants, and nothing less than the corporate scientific takeover of our greatest commons, our sky and atmosphere, natural weather and climate. It needs to be noted that the description of geoengineering matches what many already regularly observe in our skies. Please show up for this discussion on a subject that has been mostly hidden from the public. There will be an educational rally and march opposing geoengineering beginning at 6:00pm corner of Oxford and University. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from
[geo] SECURITY UPDATE : Chemtrails/conspiracy rally planned for 'Hack the Sky' Caldeira talk.
Poster's note : see bottom of below piece for info on rally. Suggest that any well known researchers avoid the area. May be worth asking police to attend. I would advise searching audience for concealed arms before allowing entry. http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2013-05-03/article/41048?headline=Hack-the-Sky---Vivian-Warkentin Public Comment New: Hack the Sky? Vivian Warkentin Sunday May 05, 2013 - 05:54:00 PM On May 9th, 7:00PM at the Brower Center, 2150 Allston way in Berkeley, corporate, billionaire- backed geoengineer, Ken Caldiera will be laying out the scientists' plans to mitigate global warming by blocking sunlight from the earth with chemical jet aerosols, such as sulphur dioxide and aluminum oxide dust. Earth Island Institute, the sponsor of this debate, is calling the event, Hack the Sky? An ethicist, not a scientist, has been chosen to debate Caldiera. Is the Earth Island Institute telling us there are no scientific arguments against this scheme? Arguments like: These chemical dusts will fall to earth to be absorbed and breathed by humans and all living things. The sun gives the earth life. Sunlight is necessary for plants to perform photosynthesis which takes carbon out of the atmosphere. The sun is the source of vitamin D required for human health. I for one, would like to hear from some forestry scientists, soil scientists, ocean scientists, biologists, botanists, entomologists, and non corporate atmospheric scientists. It is time for those who truly care about the environment to question blind trust in scientists and for that matter established environmental organizations. Science at our Universities is sponsored and directed by corporations now. Corporations have discovered that the best way to control environmentalists is to fund them. It seems that the neo environmentalists are running the environmental wing of the global war on terror, scaring us into all sorts of banker, developer, corporation, scientist enriching schemes ala disaster capitalism. I know there are plenty of well meaning caring people working with these groups, but has fear numbed their critical thinking? Geoengineering is massive pollution of the earth and it's inhabitants, and nothing less than the corporate scientific takeover of our greatest commons, our sky and atmosphere, natural weather and climate. It needs to be noted that the description of geoengineering matches what many already regularly observe in our skies. Please show up for this discussion on a subject that has been mostly hidden from the public. There will be an educational rally and march opposing geoengineering beginning at 6:00pm corner of Oxford and University. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
