RE: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Christopher Woods]

If there is anyone on this list using an ISP or free provider account, I 
recommend getting your own package and domain. The flexibility and privacy 
is well worth it.


Go with someone like bhost.net or heartinternet.uk for their value hosting 
packages. Get an email account set up. Migrate web site accounts across. 
Sit back and relax forever because that email address is now yours until 
you stop renewing!


Nowadays it's all fairly easily done and if you buy all from the same place 
the setup is automated (or assisted by them) and managed through a web 
portal, easy peasy.


The cost really is pennies a day and you can use as you like across your 
devices. You could even get rolls-royce Hosted Exchange email for proper 
push notification and Exchange integration if you want to splash out...



I have VPS hosting (for business) with BHost (amongst other providers) and 
various domains registered with Heart. Both I endorse for their good 
customer service and value. I've not solely relied upon ISP or free email 
services for two decades! Plus having a vanity domain is cool, all the cool 
kids are doing it now.




___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Vangelis forthnet]

On Thu Apr 7 10:57:49 BST 2016, RS wrote: 

Has d4x tried setting up an account 
with one of the free email 
providers like Gmail or Yahoo?


... Thank you very much Richard for your input - 
yes, setting up a webmail account was included 
inside my list of things d4x should try, but only 
if everything else with existing ISP account fails...


It is not a good idea to be dependent solely 
on an email address provided by an ISP.


... Yes, this is true - also good are the points 
raised by Charles wrt free webmail providers, 
so thanks for those also...


The first thing that stands out for me in having 
a webmail account is the ability to use from 
any device equipped with a browser, i.e. 
no need for a dedicated mail client to be installed...


All the best, 
Vangelis.


___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Vangelis forthnet]

On Thu Apr 7 10:09:28 BST 2016, David Woodhouse wrote: 

That's a different issue. When a remote mail server attempts 
to deliver a message to us, we check whether we *could* deliver 
a bounce message to it, if we can't actually deliver their message 
to its final destination.

In this case, we discover that we couldn't.
(snip)
So we say 'no thank you' to the incoming message, 
because verifying the sender address failed.


On behalf of d4x and myself, thanks for the additional info...


Without the specific address, it's hard to diagnose further.
(snip)
Didn't he already give his consent when he posted to the list? 
It was going to be visible then...


Fair point there... However, asking for your kind tolerance, 
I have decided to forward his e-mail address directly to you 
via PM - for the record, I have no issues whatsoever receiving 
mails from that address/TalkTalk SMTP server (and they are not 
marked as spam, either by my mailer nor Security suite);  
likewise, my replies to that address reach d4x successfully...


Thank you for your patience and support.

Kind regards, 
Vangelis.




___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

RE: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[C E Macfarlane]

Please see below further OT discussion, otherwise feel free to ignore ...

www.macfh.co.uk/CEMH.html

> It is not a good idea to be dependent solely on an email
> address provided by
> an ISP.

Seconded.

By all means use one of the free providers suggested, but be aware ...

:-( At least as far as newsgroups are concerned, gmail has a reputation with
some of us of being such a spamhaus that all posts from it go straight into
our killfiles, no matter who the sender.  However, I should come clean and
admit that nevertheless I do have a couple of gmail addresses, as backups
for others.

:-( Many free providers, including both the ones suggested, really, really
want you to opt into things or click on things that enable them to gather
data about you.  These days, it is becoming very difficult to obtain a
simple free email address without strings attached.  I used to have a free
Yahoo address, but I closed it after the umpteenth update that made using
the web GUI such a pain that it really wasn't worth the hassle any more  -
I'd been forced to retrieve or completely rebuild my Yahoo home page for
about the third time in as many years.  I replaced it with a gmail address,
but even there I had to opt out of a load of google-app-crap that I had no
interest in.

:-) But there is some good news.  For little more than the cost per annum of
a few cans of beer, you used to be able to, and hopefully still can,
purchase a domain with a DIFFERENT provider from your ISP, and set up both
webhost, if relevant, and email redirection to whereever your ISP currently
happens to be.  This means that you can use a single, consistent set of
email addresses based on your own domain, so your family and friends don't
have to keep updating their address books every time you change ISP, but the
hosting is still done by your ISP, so you only have to pay the minimal cost
of the redirection service.  However, be aware that with this arrangement
you can still fall foul of the problems outlined above by RS, so you need to
be able to administer your domain by a free email independent of your ISP,
so that if necessary you can change the redirection after your ISP has
closed down the destination addresses.  This is what I did for some years
before ...

:-) ... moving on to the next step up, which is to host your email on your
own domain.  This is the best possible arrangement, but the cost of buying
seperate domain hosting, rather than simply a redirection service, may well
be prohibitive if you do not run a website and your concern is solely about
email hosting.  And you still need free email addresses for backup
administrator access, in case you need to change your web-hosting provider.


___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[RS]

If you Google "550 verification failed" you will see some possible causes of 
the error message d4x is getting.  In general it is not a fault of the 
sender's email client.  It may be that TalkTalk has not set up the address 
records correctly on its email server.  Good luck in getting TalkTalk to put 
it right.  Has d4x tried setting up an account with one of the free email 
providers like Gmail or Yahoo?


It is not a good idea to be dependent solely on an email address provided by 
an ISP.  My first ever email address was with CiX.  I carried on using it 
for a year or more after I left CiX.  It was suddenly withdrawn without 
notice, causing me huge inconvenience.  I have just moved from Plusnet to 
Virgin Media.  I got an email the day before my notice period expired 
telling me my Plusnet mailbox had been closed.  Fortunately I have never 
used it.


- Original Message - 
From: Vangelis forthnet

To: get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:11 AM
Subject: Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list



... d4x GiP user resides in the UK, his ISP is TalkTalk,
his OS is Windows XP.
In a follow-up personal exchange, he assured me that he tries
to post in plain-text format without performing thread hi-jacking
(by altering existing thread title etc).

...


Reason: The following message to get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org was 
undeliverable.The reason for the problem:  550-Verification failed for 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer 




___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[David Woodhouse]

On Thu, 2016-04-07 at 00:27 +0100, Owen Smith wrote:
> I too found the "get yourself a real computer" offensive. 

Pfft. It's a Dilbert quote. You can choose to be offended. I can choose
not to care.

> Yes some people make life hard for themselves unnecessarily, but
> others have little choice in what they run for various reasons. Why
> should someone who's XP computer does want they want spend time,
> effort and money upgrading it? OK linux is free, but maybe they're
> unable to learn to use, don't have the time, or have software they
> need to use which only runs on Windows or even just XP.

I understand there are plenty of standards-compliant mail clients which
run on Windows XP, without having to upgrade the whole system.

> I used to write email software for a living, including RFC-822 etc.
> The golden rule was "be conservative in what you originate, and
> generous in what you accept". This mailing list clearly violates the
> latter half

... and deliberately so. To avoid the problems with broken threading
and thread hijacking, all my lists are explicitly configured to require
standards-compliance in that respect.

>  and I suggest it violates the first half too the way it handles
> replies.

Hm, why so? It doesn't really *generate* anything, does it?

> I run Vista on my PC. How soon before I'm told to get a real
> computer? 

It seems to be functioning correctly. I don't see why you'd ever be
told that, until/unless it stops working and you are sending invalid
messages to the list.

-- 
dwmw2



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[David Woodhouse]

On Thu, 2016-04-07 at 02:11 +0300, Vangelis forthnet wrote:
> > Just tried posting to the list using Thunderbird 
> > but got the same bounce response as in OE6
> > 
> > <<
> > This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.  
> > 
> > Delivery to the following recipients was aborted after 25 second(s):
> > 
> >  * get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
> > 
> > Reason: The following message to get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org was 
> > undeliverable.The reason for the problem:  550-Verification failed 
> > for 
> > >>>
> > (snip)

That's a different issue. When a remote mail server attempts to deliver
a message to us, we check whether we *could* deliver a bounce message
to it, if we can't actually deliver their message to its final
destination.

In this case, we discover that we couldn't. It's a common spammer trick
to send messages from invalid non-existent addresses. So we say 'no
thank you' to the incoming message, because verifying the sender
address failed.

Without the specific address, it's hard to diagnose further. Perhaps
the sender misconfigured his address in setting up Thunderbird, or
perhaps there's another problem somewhere which means he'd never get
non-delivery notifications from further afield than his own ISP's mail
server?

> > I'm not sure if the list is the best place to sort it out, 
> > that's meant to be for discussions about the usage of GiP. 
> > If I need to, I'll sort out a different email address.
> 
> I won't post d4x's e-mail address in this public list 
> (at least not without his prior consent), but should 
> the list maintainer be inclined to debug this,

Didn't he already give his consent when he posted to the list? It was
going to be visible then...

-- 
dwmw2



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Owen Smith]

I too found the "get yourself a real computer" offensive. Yes some people make 
life hard for themselves unnecessarily, but others have little choice in what 
they run for various reasons. Why should someone who's XP computer does want 
they want spend time, effort and money upgrading it? OK linux is free, but 
maybe they're unable to learn to use, don't have the time, or have software 
they need to use which only runs on Windows or even just XP.

I used to write email software for a living, including RFC-822 etc. The golden 
rule was "be conservative in what you originate, and generous in what you 
accept". This mailing list clearly violates the latter half and I suggest it 
violates the first half too the way it handles replies.

I run Vista on my PC. How soon before I'm told to get a real computer? I need 
Windows for some software, I already have Vista, why should I spend money on 
something else?

-- 
Owen Smith 
Cambridge, UK

> On 6 Apr 2016, at 23:15, Vangelis forthnet  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed Apr 6 13:12:40 BST 2016, David Woodhouse replied:
> 
>> Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a real computer.
> 
> ... Sadly, I am no more a kid; and despite my plea,
> you couldn't resist it, could you?


___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Vangelis forthnet]

On Wed Apr 6 01:31:11 BST 2016, I wrote: 


Also, I was e-mailed in private by member "d4x"
(who has trouble sending e-mails directly to the list)

(snip)
I have advised "d4x" to try third party mail clients 
on XP to see if that fixes his issue, have yet to hear back. 


... d4x GiP user resides in the UK, his ISP is TalkTalk, 
his OS is Windows XP.
In a follow-up personal exchange, he assured me that he tries 
to post in plain-text format without performing thread hi-jacking 
(by altering existing thread title etc). 

In his most recent test, he tried Thunderbird (still supported on XP), 
he went to my following list post:

http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/get_iplayer/2016-April/008850.html
and:


I sent it using the Mailto: link at the top of your post


Read the rest in his own words:

Just tried posting to the list using Thunderbird 
but got the same bounce response as in OE6


<<
This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.  


Delivery to the following recipients was aborted after 25 second(s):

 * get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org

Reason: The following message to get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org was 
undeliverable.The reason for the problem:  550-Verification failed 
for 

>>>
(snip)
I'm not sure if the list is the best place to sort it out, 
that's meant to be for discussions about the usage of GiP. 
If I need to, I'll sort out a different email address.


I won't post d4x's e-mail address in this public list 
(at least not without his prior consent), but should 
the list maintainer be inclined to debug this, 
I'll send d4x's infringing e-mail address to him directly, 
and he could then follow this further with d4x in private...


Best regards, 
Vangelis. 


___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Vangelis forthnet]

On Wed Apr 6 01:31:11 BST 2016, I wrote:


To all list members: Please refrain from the obvious
suggestion d4x should either upgrade to a MS supported
Windows version or change to an Open Source OS;
this is not the intent of my post!


On Wed Apr 6 13:12:40 BST 2016, David Woodhouse replied:


Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a real computer.


... Sadly, I am no more a kid; and despite my plea,
you couldn't resist it, could you?
... And I have to agree with C E Macfarlane that I found
your tone there slightly offending...
 I try my best to be civil in my list posts, I do
acknowledge I may have had my bad moments
during the five years I frequent this list, but in
general I try not to offend the other person...
Remember, I started this thread as a service
to a fellow user of GiP (in the UK) who,
for some reason, can't access this list...

To the issue at hand now - you wrote:


Your message of Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:45:59 +0300 was rejected
because of missing/broken threading headers -
you were attempting to reply to a list message,
but your own message lacked the required In-Reply-To: /
References: headers which contain the threading information.


Well, that was exactly what I was trying to do -
I may be at fault here, but you were so quick to
jail me without parole. The way I attempted to do that
in my (now decommissioned) WinXP box was the
same way I have always done it in my Vista laptop,
and it always worked! But some background is
needed - it can be found in this Apr 2011 thread:

http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/get_iplayer/2011-April/001240.html

I wrote:

(2011-04-02)

I am basically reading the mailing list from the archive (it comes in two
incarnations, i.e.
http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/get_iplayer/2011-April/date.html &
http://www.mail-archive.com/get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org/maillist.html),
I have both formats arranged by "date")
(snip)
I am using Windows Mail, which is the native e-mail client of my OS
(WinVista SP2 x86), when I send an e-mail to 
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org

my mail starts a new thread...
(snip)
For this specific mail, I selected the e-mail & thread Shevek started from
within the archive (version 1) & clicked on the e-mail address on top,
underneath the subject...


... and you replied:

(2011-04-02)

This time it was correct; I suspect you used *my* archive. If you go to
http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/get_iplayer/2011-March/001193.html
and let your mouse hover over the address at the top, you'll see that
the mailto: url contains '...= clicking the mailto: link
of a posted message in the infradead archive
(opened in Firefox) does not seem to work -
starting a new thread does.

Windows Mail on Windows Vista=> clicking
the mailto: link of a posted message in the infradead
archive (opened in Firefox) works as expected.

In the end, yes, you are probably right -
Microsoft appears to be at fault here!

Many thanks to Richard Cole & C E Macfarlane
for taking the time to test/post.

BTW, d4x has replied back with more info
related to his inability to access the list -
details will be posted inside a separate mail...

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Roger Bell_West]

On Wed, Apr 06, 2016 at 01:18:25PM +0100, David Woodhouse wrote:
>The only thing we have is basic email hygiene. Use a proper email
>client which doesn't screw up the *basics*, and use it properly.

In-Reply-To has only been a standard since 1977. I'm sure Microsoft
will catch up eventually, when they write an email system for the
Internet.

R

___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2016-04-06 at 13:12 +0100, Richard Cole wrote:
> 
> At the time I thought the subject line might have been embargoed.  It
> was --p option.  I have since see a comment that discussion of
> that option is banned.

I don't believe there are any such topic-specific filters in place.

The only thing we have is basic email hygiene. Use a proper email
client which doesn't screw up the *basics*, and use it properly.

In particular, your replies should actually have the right threading
headers to mark them as replies. And when you *aren't* trying to reply
to an exiting thread, your message *shouldn't* have those headers.

Both failure modes happen. The former because of broken mail clients,
the latter because of broken users (who lazily hit 'reply' to an
existing thread and then just change the subject. This is called
"thread hijacking" as their message ends up *in* the original thread as
a complete digression from it.

-- 
dwmw2



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[Richard Cole]

I have had the message saying my post was being held for list moderator 
review.  I also have a laptop running XP, which I am now using to post this 
message.  I have checked, and the offending message was not sent from the XP 
machine, which I am using to send this message.  I think it was sent from a 
laptop running Windows 7 Professional and Windows Mail (the Vista email 
client).  It has since been upgraded to Windows 10, which has meant I have 
had to move to Windows Live Mail.  It seems the Sent items have not been 
imported.


At the time I thought the subject line might have been embargoed.  It 
was --p option.  I have since see a comment that discussion of that 
option is banned.


Another possible cause was where I was when I sent it.  I'll email you with 
details.  If that was the cause, I can't reproduce it until I go back there.



- Original Message - 
From: "Vangelis forthnet" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2016 1:31 AM
Subject: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list



On Tue Apr 5 16:36:40 BST 2016, I wrote:

Also, I was e-mailed in private by member "d4x"
(who has trouble sending e-mails directly to the list)


Hi - it has since emerged that GiP user "d4x" employs Microsoft Outlook 
Express 6.00.2900.5931 as his e-mail client, which is the built-in e-mail 
client of Windows XP.


"d4x" had recently another Windows XP related issue that was posted on the 
support forum: 
https://squarepenguin.co.uk/forums/thread-686-post-3740.html
and was quickly acted upon by dinkypumpkin, but it appears his EOL'd OS is 
causing him extra grief when trying to subscribe/post to this very list.
Registration/Subscription appears successful, but no confirmation e-mail 
is received, nor any other list traffic.
Trying to post directly to the list (in plain-text format) results in an 
immediate bounce by the list.
I was intrigued by his issue so today I brought my WinXP (SP2) desktop out 
of retirement (been there since November 2015) and did some tests:
When I myself tried to post to the list using MSOE 6.00, the test mail 
instantly bounced back:

Your mail to 'get_iplayer' with the subject

  Re: Total failure for tv this morning - 9.30am BST

Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.

The reason it is being held:

 Message has a suspicious header

Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive
notification of the moderator's decision.  If you would like to cancel
this posting, please visit the following URL:


I have advised "d4x" to try third party mail clients on XP to see if that 
fixes his issue, have yet to hear back.
I recall some list members are still on XP - can any of you replicate 
reported issue?


Since the deprecation of SHA-1 Hashing Algorithm by Microsoft on Jan 1st 
2016, I now find many SSL (https) URLs simply won't load in XP's IE8, the 
same goes for other functions using OS modules to access the net - I 
believe this is the reason behind d4x's "zeranoe" issue...


To all list members: Please refrain from the obvious suggestion d4x should 
either upgrade to a MS supported Windows version or change to an Open 
Source OS; this is not the intent of my post!


To the list maintainer (David Woodhouse): Have you purposely blocked 
traffic originating from MSOE 6.00 / WinXP as being an insecure client/OS?


Many thanks for any additional detail/insight on this...

Kind regards, Vangelis.

___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer 




___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer

Re: Outlook Express 6 on WinXP and this list

[David Woodhouse]

On Wed, 2016-04-06 at 03:31 +0300, Vangelis forthnet wrote:
> 
> To the list maintainer (David Woodhouse): 
> Have you purposely blocked traffic originating from 
> MSOE 6.00 / WinXP as being an insecure client/OS?

No. Your message of Tue, 5 Apr 2016 23:45:59 +0300 was rejected because
of missing/broken threading headers — you were attempting to reply to a
list message, but your own message lacked the required In-Reply-To: /
References: headers which contain the threading information.

Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a real computer.

-- 
dwmw2



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
___
get_iplayer mailing list
get_iplayer@lists.infradead.org
http://lists.infradead.org/mailman/listinfo/get_iplayer