Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-12-02 Thread Joachim Breitner
Dear James,


Am Montag, den 01.12.2014, 20:50 -0500 schrieb James Crayne:
> I am entirely new, in fact, this is my first post on this list, and I
> am not entirely sure I have picked the right spot to jump in tbh.
> 
welcome!
> 
> I tried to think of a word for this category that fits better than
> difficulty, and it seems to me that the word that best captures what I
> understand to be the intention is something like "Barrier" as in
> barrier to entry.
>
> Perhaps the barrier to entry might best be read component-wise, as in
> Compiler-{virgin,newbie,veteren} etc? And so that could be combined
> into the component tag?


The concept of the “barrier“ is a good one. But we already started using
the "newcomer" tag, and after all its just a name, so I do not think it
matters much... I say we stick what we have right now.

You are free to jump right in, of course:
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers#Fixingabug

Greetings,
Joachim



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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-12-01 Thread James Crayne
I am entirely new, in fact, this is my first post on this list, and I am
not entirely sure I have picked the right spot to jump in tbh.

I tried to think of a word for this category that fits better than
difficulty, and it seems to me that the word that best captures what I
understand to be the intention is something like "Barrier" as in barrier to
entry.

Perhaps the barrier to entry might best be read component-wise, as in
Compiler-{virgin,newbie,veteren} etc? And so that could be combined into
the component tag?


On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Simon Marlow  wrote:

> On 13/11/2014 07:43, Jan Stolarek wrote:
>
>> I believe that current difficulty field is intended to mean "the amount
>> of time required by
>> someone who already knows what to do". Obviously, that's not the metric
>> that we want to use for
>> labelling newcomer-friendly tasks. (I wonder if the difficulty field in
>> its current form is even
>> useful to us?)
>>
>> Obviously, the metric that we want is "the amount of code familiarity
>> required to fix a bug". For
>> newcommers we probably want tickets that require knowledge of <1000 lines
>> of code.
>>
>> I think the important questions are:
>>
>> 1. Do we find the current "difficulty" field useful?
>> 2. Should we have a Trac field to label accessibility for newcomers?
>>
>> My answers are:
>> 1. No.
>>
>
> We could remove the Difficulty field, given that it hasn't really been
> useful and it can be subsumed by the keywords field for the things we want
> it for.  It was originally intended to help (a) new developers find tickets
> to work on, and (b) help us find good projects for the GSoc. Both of which
> can be keywords, so I'd be happy to get rid of Difficulty.
>
> Cheers,
> Simon
>
>
>
>
>  2. Yes, we should have a filed with accessibility levels like:
>> newcomer/intermediate/advanced/rocket science.
>>
>> If we have 2) then we can have a list of tickets in the Newcomers page
>> generated dynamically.
>>
>> Janek
>>
>> Dnia czwartek, 13 listopada 2014, Richard Eisenberg napisał:
>>
>>> Forgive me if I'm repeating others' comments, but the newcomer label, to
>>> me, is independent of level of difficulty -- it has much more to do with
>>> how "messy" the work is, I think.
>>>
>>> I'll make a concrete proposal: Tag appropriate bugs/feature requests with
>>> "newcomer" and, if you want, mention that you'll mentor in a comment. I
>>> don't think there's a glaring need to be able to search by mentor, so I'm
>>> not proposing a Trac field for that.
>>>
>>> If I see here that a few others will adopt this proposal, I'll start
>>> doing
>>> it -- I already have several tickets in mind.
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Isaac Hollander McCreery <
>>> ihmccre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Glad people are excited about this,

 I like "beginner/intermediate/advanced".  I think it's more accurate
 than
 "easy/hard" and clearer than "accessible", "welcoming", etc.

 I also want to call out the "mentor" label that the Rust team is using:
 experienced devs nominate themselves as mentors on projects, then
 newcomers can tackle them with some support.  As a newcomer, that's
 *extremely* appealing to me.

 Cheers,
 Ike

 On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brandon Allbery 
 wrote: On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Joachim Breitner
  wrote: The quality that we are looking for
 is
 “tacklabe by a newcomer“, i.e. not requiring too deep knowledge of GHC.
 Is there a nice word for that? I found “accessible”, “welcoming”,
 “appealing” – anything that sounds good in native English speaker’s
 ears?
 :-)

 Various projects I'm involved with use

 difficulty: beginner (or just "beginner")
 babydev-bait (!)
 newcomer (several use "newbie" but I do not recommend that label)

 --
 brandon s allbery kf8nh   sine nomine
 associates allber...@gmail.com
 ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad
   http://sinenomine.net

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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-27 Thread Simon Marlow

On 13/11/2014 07:43, Jan Stolarek wrote:

I believe that current difficulty field is intended to mean "the amount of time 
required by
someone who already knows what to do". Obviously, that's not the metric that we 
want to use for
labelling newcomer-friendly tasks. (I wonder if the difficulty field in its 
current form is even
useful to us?)

Obviously, the metric that we want is "the amount of code familiarity required to 
fix a bug". For
newcommers we probably want tickets that require knowledge of <1000 lines of 
code.

I think the important questions are:

1. Do we find the current "difficulty" field useful?
2. Should we have a Trac field to label accessibility for newcomers?

My answers are:
1. No.


We could remove the Difficulty field, given that it hasn't really been 
useful and it can be subsumed by the keywords field for the things we 
want it for.  It was originally intended to help (a) new developers find 
tickets to work on, and (b) help us find good projects for the GSoc. 
Both of which can be keywords, so I'd be happy to get rid of Difficulty.


Cheers,
Simon




2. Yes, we should have a filed with accessibility levels like:
newcomer/intermediate/advanced/rocket science.

If we have 2) then we can have a list of tickets in the Newcomers page 
generated dynamically.

Janek

Dnia czwartek, 13 listopada 2014, Richard Eisenberg napisał:

Forgive me if I'm repeating others' comments, but the newcomer label, to
me, is independent of level of difficulty -- it has much more to do with
how "messy" the work is, I think.

I'll make a concrete proposal: Tag appropriate bugs/feature requests with
"newcomer" and, if you want, mention that you'll mentor in a comment. I
don't think there's a glaring need to be able to search by mentor, so I'm
not proposing a Trac field for that.

If I see here that a few others will adopt this proposal, I'll start doing
it -- I already have several tickets in mind.

Richard

On Nov 12, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Isaac Hollander McCreery  
wrote:

Glad people are excited about this,

I like "beginner/intermediate/advanced".  I think it's more accurate than
"easy/hard" and clearer than "accessible", "welcoming", etc.

I also want to call out the "mentor" label that the Rust team is using:
experienced devs nominate themselves as mentors on projects, then
newcomers can tackle them with some support.  As a newcomer, that's
*extremely* appealing to me.

Cheers,
Ike

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brandon Allbery 
wrote: On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Joachim Breitner
 wrote: The quality that we are looking for is
“tacklabe by a newcomer“, i.e. not requiring too deep knowledge of GHC.
Is there a nice word for that? I found “accessible”, “welcoming”,
“appealing” – anything that sounds good in native English speaker’s ears?
:-)

Various projects I'm involved with use

difficulty: beginner (or just "beginner")
babydev-bait (!)
newcomer (several use "newbie" but I do not recommend that label)

--
brandon s allbery kf8nh   sine nomine
associates allber...@gmail.com
ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad
  http://sinenomine.net

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Re: HEADS UP: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-17 Thread Austin Seipp
Thanks for doing this Jan. I think a ticket category works a lot
better than just a page alone.

Simon and I talked about this once, and another good point is that by
having a category, it's a lot easier for regular, more experienced
developers to sweep the 'newcomers' list and fix anything that needs
it, perhaps for a pending release that may be soon.

But these days we seem to have a somewhat healthy influx of developers
and patches, so maybe these tickets can just get fixed the natural
way. :)

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Joachim Breitner
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> Am Donnerstag, den 13.11.2014, 14:56 +0100 schrieb Jan Stolarek:
>> HEADS UP: if you see a ticket that is easy enough to be tackled by a 
>> newcomer please tag it
>> using "newcomer" keyword.
>>
>> I already added "newcomer" keyword to tickets that were listed on the 
>> Newcomers page and replaced
>> the static list with dynamicaly generated one. I decided to filter out 
>> tickets that have an owner
>> so that people are not redirected to tickets that are being worked on.
>
> incidentally, Debian started to use the same tag "newcomer" to tag its
> bugs of the same nature:
> http://www.donarmstrong.com/posts/newcomer_bts_tag/
>
> So our choice of tag was a good one :-)
>
> Greetings,
> Joachim
>
> --
> Joachim “nomeata” Breitner
>   m...@joachim-breitner.de • http://www.joachim-breitner.de/
>   Jabber: nome...@joachim-breitner.de  • GPG-Key: 0xF0FBF51F
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Re: HEADS UP: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-17 Thread Joachim Breitner
Hi,


Am Donnerstag, den 13.11.2014, 14:56 +0100 schrieb Jan Stolarek:
> HEADS UP: if you see a ticket that is easy enough to be tackled by a newcomer 
> please tag it 
> using "newcomer" keyword.
> 
> I already added "newcomer" keyword to tickets that were listed on the 
> Newcomers page and replaced 
> the static list with dynamicaly generated one. I decided to filter out 
> tickets that have an owner 
> so that people are not redirected to tickets that are being worked on.

incidentally, Debian started to use the same tag "newcomer" to tag its
bugs of the same nature:
http://www.donarmstrong.com/posts/newcomer_bts_tag/

So our choice of tag was a good one :-)

Greetings,
Joachim

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HEADS UP: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-13 Thread Jan Stolarek
HEADS UP: if you see a ticket that is easy enough to be tackled by a newcomer 
please tag it 
using "newcomer" keyword.

I already added "newcomer" keyword to tickets that were listed on the Newcomers 
page and replaced 
the static list with dynamicaly generated one. I decided to filter out tickets 
that have an owner 
so that people are not redirected to tickets that are being worked on.

Janek
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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-13 Thread Joachim Breitner
Hi,

Am Donnerstag, den 13.11.2014, 08:43 +0100 schrieb Jan Stolarek:
> I think the important questions are:
> 
> 1. Do we find the current "difficulty" field useful?
> 2. Should we have a Trac field to label accessibility for newcomers?
> 
> My answers are:
> 1. No.
> 2. Yes, we should have a filed with accessibility levels like: 
> newcomer/intermediate/advanced/rocket science.

No need for a new field, simply use a keyword and it will show up on a
query like

https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/query?status=infoneeded&status=merge&status=new&status=patch&status=upstream&keywords=~newcomer&order=priority

which can also be turned into a table on a wiki page easyil.


So technically, nothing new is required. All we are doing is
bikeshedding and waiting for someone to plough ahead :-)

Greetings,
Joachim

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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Jan Stolarek
I believe that current difficulty field is intended to mean "the amount of time 
required by 
someone who already knows what to do". Obviously, that's not the metric that we 
want to use for 
labelling newcomer-friendly tasks. (I wonder if the difficulty field in its 
current form is even 
useful to us?) 

Obviously, the metric that we want is "the amount of code familiarity required 
to fix a bug". For 
newcommers we probably want tickets that require knowledge of <1000 lines of 
code.

I think the important questions are:

1. Do we find the current "difficulty" field useful?
2. Should we have a Trac field to label accessibility for newcomers?

My answers are:
1. No.
2. Yes, we should have a filed with accessibility levels like: 
newcomer/intermediate/advanced/rocket science.

If we have 2) then we can have a list of tickets in the Newcomers page 
generated dynamically.

Janek

Dnia czwartek, 13 listopada 2014, Richard Eisenberg napisał:
> Forgive me if I'm repeating others' comments, but the newcomer label, to
> me, is independent of level of difficulty -- it has much more to do with
> how "messy" the work is, I think.
>
> I'll make a concrete proposal: Tag appropriate bugs/feature requests with
> "newcomer" and, if you want, mention that you'll mentor in a comment. I
> don't think there's a glaring need to be able to search by mentor, so I'm
> not proposing a Trac field for that.
>
> If I see here that a few others will adopt this proposal, I'll start doing
> it -- I already have several tickets in mind.
>
> Richard
>
> On Nov 12, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Isaac Hollander McCreery  
> wrote:
> > Glad people are excited about this,
> >
> > I like "beginner/intermediate/advanced".  I think it's more accurate than
> > "easy/hard" and clearer than "accessible", "welcoming", etc.
> >
> > I also want to call out the "mentor" label that the Rust team is using:
> > experienced devs nominate themselves as mentors on projects, then
> > newcomers can tackle them with some support.  As a newcomer, that's
> > *extremely* appealing to me.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ike
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brandon Allbery 
> > wrote: On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Joachim Breitner
> >  wrote: The quality that we are looking for is
> > “tacklabe by a newcomer“, i.e. not requiring too deep knowledge of GHC.
> > Is there a nice word for that? I found “accessible”, “welcoming”,
> > “appealing” – anything that sounds good in native English speaker’s ears?
> > :-)
> >
> > Various projects I'm involved with use
> >
> > difficulty: beginner (or just "beginner")
> > babydev-bait (!)
> > newcomer (several use "newbie" but I do not recommend that label)
> >
> > --
> > brandon s allbery kf8nh   sine nomine
> > associates allber...@gmail.com 
> > ballb...@sinenomine.net unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad  
> >  http://sinenomine.net
> >
> > ___
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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Richard Eisenberg
Forgive me if I'm repeating others' comments, but the newcomer label, to me, is 
independent of level of difficulty -- it has much more to do with how "messy" 
the work is, I think.

I'll make a concrete proposal: Tag appropriate bugs/feature requests with 
"newcomer" and, if you want, mention that you'll mentor in a comment. I don't 
think there's a glaring need to be able to search by mentor, so I'm not 
proposing a Trac field for that.

If I see here that a few others will adopt this proposal, I'll start doing it 
-- I already have several tickets in mind.

Richard

On Nov 12, 2014, at 6:27 PM, Isaac Hollander McCreery  
wrote:

> Glad people are excited about this,
> 
> I like "beginner/intermediate/advanced".  I think it's more accurate than 
> "easy/hard" and clearer than "accessible", "welcoming", etc.
> 
> I also want to call out the "mentor" label that the Rust team is using: 
> experienced devs nominate themselves as mentors on projects, then newcomers 
> can tackle them with some support.  As a newcomer, that's *extremely* 
> appealing to me.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ike
> 
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brandon Allbery  wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Joachim Breitner  
> wrote:
> The quality that we are looking for is “tacklabe by a newcomer“, i.e.
> not requiring too deep knowledge of GHC. Is there a nice word for that?
> I found “accessible”, “welcoming”, “appealing” – anything that sounds
> good in native English speaker’s ears? :-)
> 
> Various projects I'm involved with use
> 
> difficulty: beginner (or just "beginner")
> babydev-bait (!)
> newcomer (several use "newbie" but I do not recommend that label)
> 
> -- 
> brandon s allbery kf8nh   sine nomine associates
> allber...@gmail.com  ballb...@sinenomine.net
> unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net
> 
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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Isaac Hollander McCreery
Glad people are excited about this,

I like "beginner/intermediate/advanced".  I think it's more accurate than
"easy/hard" and clearer than "accessible", "welcoming", etc.

I also want to call out the "mentor" label that the Rust team is using:
experienced devs nominate themselves as mentors on projects, then newcomers
can tackle them with some support.  As a newcomer, that's *extremely*
appealing to me.

Cheers,
Ike

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Brandon Allbery 
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Joachim Breitner <
> m...@joachim-breitner.de> wrote:
>
>> The quality that we are looking for is “tacklabe by a newcomer“, i.e.
>> not requiring too deep knowledge of GHC. Is there a nice word for that?
>> I found “accessible”, “welcoming”, “appealing” – anything that sounds
>> good in native English speaker’s ears? :-)
>>
>
> Various projects I'm involved with use
>
> difficulty: beginner (or just "beginner")
> babydev-bait (!)
> newcomer (several use "newbie" but I do not recommend that label)
>
> --
> brandon s allbery kf8nh   sine nomine
> associates
> allber...@gmail.com
> ballb...@sinenomine.net
> unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonad
> http://sinenomine.net
>
> ___
> ghc-devs mailing list
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> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs
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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Brandon Allbery
On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Joachim Breitner 
wrote:

> The quality that we are looking for is “tacklabe by a newcomer“, i.e.
> not requiring too deep knowledge of GHC. Is there a nice word for that?
> I found “accessible”, “welcoming”, “appealing” – anything that sounds
> good in native English speaker’s ears? :-)
>

Various projects I'm involved with use

difficulty: beginner (or just "beginner")
babydev-bait (!)
newcomer (several use "newbie" but I do not recommend that label)

-- 
brandon s allbery kf8nh   sine nomine associates
allber...@gmail.com  ballb...@sinenomine.net
unix, openafs, kerberos, infrastructure, xmonadhttp://sinenomine.net
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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Joachim Breitner
Hi,

I was about to suggest the same thing. I also started my own list for
the last hackathon at
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/ZuriHac2014#Possibletickets
but something like
https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/query?keywords=~newcomer
would be even nicer.

Of course there is the bike-shedding question of what the keyword should
be.

“easy” is obvious, but I don’t like it a lot: These tickets are not
necessary easy, and we don’t want new contributors to think that we only
trust them to do easy stuff.

The quality that we are looking for is “tacklabe by a newcomer“, i.e.
not requiring too deep knowledge of GHC. Is there a nice word for that?
I found “accessible”, “welcoming”, “appealing” – anything that sounds
good in native English speaker’s ears? :-)


About filling the list: I suggest that if you see a new ticket on
ghc-tickets filed that you would recommend to a newcomer, simply set the
keyword. This has the side-effect that at least one developer get’s CCed
when a newcomer comes along and posts questions to the ticket.

Greetings,
Joachim



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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Richard Eisenberg
I like this idea.

Would it be a good idea to add a new "difficulty" classification for bugs that 
could flag them as newcomer-appropriate? I don't think "Easy" is this 
classification, because there are many bugs that are easy if you know exactly 
where to look but nigh impossible otherwise. If it were as easy as choosing a 
pull-down option in Trac, we might do better at keeping this list up to date.

(Yes, I know I planned to maintain the list, but that just wasn't realistic of 
me. Sorry.)

Richard

On Nov 12, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Isaac Hollander McCreery  
wrote:

> As a newcomer myself, yes, this is an important resource for me!
> 
> Actually, when I first saw that list, I assumed it was dynamically updated 
> from Trac.  I've known other projects to track tickets with tags that 
> correspond to difficulty:
> 
> 
> https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3AE-easy
> 
> I'm not familiar enough with Trac to know if this is possible, but perhaps 
> this list could be dynamically updated, or at least link to Trac so that 
> someone like me could see an up-to-date full list?
> 
> Thanks y'all,
> Ike
> 
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 4:58 AM, Jan Stolarek  wrote:
> Last year Richard created a wiki page for newcomers:
> 
>   https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers
> 
> One of assumptions was to store a list of low hanging fruits that newcomers 
> can tackle:
> 
>   https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers#Fixingabug
> 
> But that list is far from exhaustive. Here's where your help is needed. 
> Please remember that this
> page exists and whenever you report or encounter a simple bug or feature 
> request please add it to
> the list on Newcomers page. Thanks.
> 
> Janek
> ___
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Re: Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Isaac Hollander McCreery
As a newcomer myself, yes, this is an important resource for me!

Actually, when I first saw that list, I assumed it was dynamically updated
from Trac.  I've known other projects to track tickets with tags that
correspond to difficulty:


https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Aissue+label%3AE-easy

I'm not familiar enough with Trac to know if this is possible, but perhaps
this list could be dynamically updated, or at least link to Trac so that
someone like me could see an up-to-date full list?

Thanks y'all,
Ike

On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 4:58 AM, Jan Stolarek 
wrote:

> Last year Richard created a wiki page for newcomers:
>
>   https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers
>
> One of assumptions was to store a list of low hanging fruits that
> newcomers can tackle:
>
>   https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers#Fixingabug
>
> But that list is far from exhaustive. Here's where your help is needed.
> Please remember that this
> page exists and whenever you report or encounter a simple bug or feature
> request please add it to
> the list on Newcomers page. Thanks.
>
> Janek
> ___
> ghc-devs mailing list
> ghc-devs@haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs
>
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Keeping the "Newcomers" wiki page alive

2014-11-12 Thread Jan Stolarek
Last year Richard created a wiki page for newcomers:

  https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers

One of assumptions was to store a list of low hanging fruits that newcomers can 
tackle:

  https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers#Fixingabug

But that list is far from exhaustive. Here's where your help is needed. Please 
remember that this 
page exists and whenever you report or encounter a simple bug or feature 
request please add it to 
the list on Newcomers page. Thanks.

Janek
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