Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Arnar == Arnar Birgisson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Arnar To clarify - most of modern fonts do in deed have Arnar latin-greek-cyrillic (including the U+03BB lambda), but I Arnar was referring to the specific math symbols such as the Arnar U+1D6CC bold lam(b)da, which reside in the Supplementary Arnar Multilingual Plane (SMP). Those are indeed not present in Arnar my fonts, including Lucida Math and Adobe Mathematical Pi). I tackled David Carlisle about this too: David On windows there's cambria math (unfortunately with a restrictive licence that restricts it to that platform, though you can get it for free by getting (for example) the free powerpoint viewer from microsoft) for a free font with a full range of characters best bet is stix font which has been 10 years in the making and is currently between beta and full release (but late again) the stix site removed the fonts after the beata test but you can get them from mozilla, and you need them if reading mathml in FF3. http://www.stixfonts.org/ http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/fonts/ Colin echo $(uc 1D6cc) - doesn't print anything recognizable David That would require not only fonts with glyphs in that slot but also that the software (xterm here) understands plane 1 not just the 16bit unicode 2 support. I don't know whether xterm does or not. I downloaded the fonts, but xterm still doesn't display the character concerned. Nor does Firefox, although I haven't tried it with MathML yet. -- Colin Adams Preston Lancashire ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On 2008 Nov 22, at 12:12, Colin Paul Adams wrote: Arnar == Arnar Birgisson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Arnar To clarify - most of modern fonts do in deed have Arnar latin-greek-cyrillic (including the U+03BB lambda), but I Arnar was referring to the specific math symbols such as the Arnar U+1D6CC bold lam(b)da, which reside in the Supplementary Arnar Multilingual Plane (SMP). Those are indeed not present in Arnar my fonts, including Lucida Math and Adobe Mathematical Pi). David On windows there's cambria math (unfortunately with a restrictive licence that restricts it to that platform, though you can get it for free by getting (for example) the free powerpoint viewer from microsoft) for a free font with a full range of characters best bet is stix font which has been 10 years in the making and is currently between beta and http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/ works for me. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [EMAIL PROTECTED] system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [EMAIL PROTECTED] electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Hi, On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 18:56, Colin Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another problem is font support.. none of the fonts on my system (and I have quite a lot) have these codepoints defined. David That seems surprising. Some of the more exotic math characters added at Unicode 3.2,4,5 are only just now getting into fonts (such as STIX and Cambria math) but (almost) any truetype or type1 font built in the last 10 years or so should have the basic latin-greek-cyrillic font set, at least. To clarify - most of modern fonts do in deed have latin-greek-cyrillic (including the U+03BB lambda), but I was referring to the specific math symbols such as the U+1D6CC bold lam(b)da, which reside in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane (SMP). Those are indeed not present in my fonts, including Lucida Math and Adobe Mathematical Pi). cheers, Arnar ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Jan Some others are (I have no idea why they are referenced as Jan lamda instead of lambda): See http://unicode.org/notes/tn27/ : U+039B GREEK CAPITAL LETTER LAMDA U+03BB GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA * The use of the spelling lamda derives from ISO 10646. This does not mean that it is more correct than lambda, merely that the spelling without the 'b' is the one used in the formal character names. -- Colin Adams Preston Lancashire ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Some others are (I have no idea why they are referenced as lamda instead of lambda): 039BGREEK CAPITAL LETTER LAMDA 03BBGREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA 1D27GREEK LETTER SMALL CAPITAL LAMDA 1038D UGARITIC LETTER LAMDA 1D6B2 MATHEMATICAL BOLD CAPITAL LAMDA # font 039B greek capital letter lamda 1D6CC MATHEMATICAL BOLD SMALL LAMDA # font 03BB greek small letter lamda 1D6EC MATHEMATICAL ITALIC CAPITAL LAMDA # font 039B greek capital letter lamda 1D706 MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA # font 03BB greek small letter lamda 1D726 MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL LAMDA # font 039B greek capital letter lamda 1D740 MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC SMALL LAMDA # font 03BB greek small letter lamda 1D760 MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD CAPITAL LAMDA # font 039B greek capital letter lamda 1D77A MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD SMALL LAMDA # font 03BB greek small letter lamda 1D79A MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL LAMDA # font 039B greek capital letter lamda 1D7B4 MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC SMALL LAMDA # font 03BB greek small letter lamda jan. 2008/11/19 David Menendez [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Duncan Coutts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 15:01 +, Tony Finch wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Simon Marlow wrote: Tue Jan 16 16:11:00 GMT 2007 Simon Marlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Remove special lambda unicode character, it didn't work anyway Since lambda is a lower-case letter, it's debatable whether we want to steal it to mean lambda in Haskell source. However if we did, then we would probably want to make it a special symbol, not just a reserved symbol, otherwise writing \x-... (using unicode characters of course) wouldn't work, because \x would be treated as a single identifier, you'd need a space. There are a number of mathematical lambdas in Unicode (distinct from teh Greek lambdas), but they are not in the basic multilingual plane and they are presumably not very easy to type :-) Do you know what they are? I couldn't find any other than the greek lambda λ and the latin lambda with stroke ƛ. They're listed under Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols. http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf e.g., 1D6CC mathematical bold small lambda -- Dave Menendez [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/ ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 09:50 +, Jan Jakubuv wrote: Some others are (I have no idea why they are referenced as lamda instead of lambda): Yeah, that's why I missed them. I was searching for what I thought was the correct spelling. Duncan ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:23, Duncan Coutts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 09:50 +, Jan Jakubuv wrote: Some others are (I have no idea why they are referenced as lamda instead of lambda): Yeah, that's why I missed them. I was searching for what I thought was the correct spelling. Same here. Another problem is font support.. none of the fonts on my system (and I have quite a lot) have these codepoints defined. One would have to open them in a font editor and copy the greek lambda. cheers, Arnar ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
I thought it was worth asking David Carlisle about this. Here is his reply: Colin I thought I would draw this complaint to your attention, since I think you are probably responsible for getting many of these symbols into Unicode in the first place. DavidI had no part in not lam(b)da:-) that's been there since the beginning for greek text not for mathematics. Unicode know that their spelling is eccentric (and even have a comment to that effect somewhere as I recall) but the overriding rule is they never change the mames once assigned. Another problem is font support.. none of the fonts on my system (and I have quite a lot) have these codepoints defined. David That seems surprising. Some of the more exotic math characters added at Unicode 3.2,4,5 are only just now getting into fonts (such as STIX and Cambria math) but (almost) any truetype or type1 font built in the last 10 years or so should have the basic latin-greek-cyrillic font set, at least. DavidWhether or not the editor that you are using knows about anything other than ascii and can actually use the font is another matter of course. 2008/11/20 Arnar Birgisson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 12:23, Duncan Coutts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-20 at 09:50 +, Jan Jakubuv wrote: Some others are (I have no idea why they are referenced as lamda instead of lambda): Yeah, that's why I missed them. I was searching for what I thought was the correct spelling. Same here. Another problem is font support.. none of the fonts on my system (and I have quite a lot) have these codepoints defined. One would have to open them in a font editor and copy the greek lambda. cheers, Arnar ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Hi, Perhaps it would be possible to convince your text editor to display '\' as, let's say, bold lambda? Of course it would need to know which '\' mean lambdas. Best, Michał On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 18:00 +0900, Kazu Yamamoto wrote: Hello, When the -XUnicodeSyntax option is specified, GHC accepts some Unicode characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? Regards, --Kazu ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Duncan Coutts wrote: On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 11:51 +, Ross Paterson wrote: On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:30:01AM +, Malcolm Wallace wrote: When the -XUnicodeSyntax option is specified, GHC accepts some Unicode characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? The greek lambda is a normal lower-case alphabetic character - it can be used in identifier names. But it could be a reserved word synonymous with \. After all, \ can occur in operator symbols, but the operator \ is reserved. Presumably that would let you do (\ x - ...) but not (\x - ) since the \x would run together and lexically it would be one identifier. Exactly. Here's the relevant patch: Tue Jan 16 16:11:00 GMT 2007 Simon Marlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Remove special lambda unicode character, it didn't work anyway Since lambda is a lower-case letter, it's debatable whether we want to steal it to mean lambda in Haskell source. However if we did, then we would probably want to make it a special symbol, not just a reserved symbol, otherwise writing \x-... (using unicode characters of course) wouldn't work, because \x would be treated as a single identifier, you'd need a space. Cheers, Simon ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Simon Marlow wrote: Tue Jan 16 16:11:00 GMT 2007 Simon Marlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Remove special lambda unicode character, it didn't work anyway Since lambda is a lower-case letter, it's debatable whether we want to steal it to mean lambda in Haskell source. However if we did, then we would probably want to make it a special symbol, not just a reserved symbol, otherwise writing \x-... (using unicode characters of course) wouldn't work, because \x would be treated as a single identifier, you'd need a space. There are a number of mathematical lambdas in Unicode (distinct from teh Greek lambdas), but they are not in the basic multilingual plane and they are presumably not very easy to type :-) Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dotat.at/ VIKING NORTH UTSIRE SOUTH UTSIRE: NORTHWESTERLY 6 TO GALE 8, OCCASIONALLY SEVERE GALE 9 IN VIKING AND SOUTH UTSIRE. VERY ROUGH, OCCASIONALLY HIGH. RAIN THEN SHOWERS, WINTRY LATER IN VIKING AND NORTH UTSIRE. MODERATE OR GOOD, OCCASIONALLY POOR. ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 15:01 +, Tony Finch wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Simon Marlow wrote: Tue Jan 16 16:11:00 GMT 2007 Simon Marlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Remove special lambda unicode character, it didn't work anyway Since lambda is a lower-case letter, it's debatable whether we want to steal it to mean lambda in Haskell source. However if we did, then we would probably want to make it a special symbol, not just a reserved symbol, otherwise writing \x-... (using unicode characters of course) wouldn't work, because \x would be treated as a single identifier, you'd need a space. There are a number of mathematical lambdas in Unicode (distinct from teh Greek lambdas), but they are not in the basic multilingual plane and they are presumably not very easy to type :-) Do you know what they are? I couldn't find any other than the greek lambda λ and the latin lambda with stroke ƛ. Duncan ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Duncan Coutts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-11-19 at 15:01 +, Tony Finch wrote: On Wed, 19 Nov 2008, Simon Marlow wrote: Tue Jan 16 16:11:00 GMT 2007 Simon Marlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Remove special lambda unicode character, it didn't work anyway Since lambda is a lower-case letter, it's debatable whether we want to steal it to mean lambda in Haskell source. However if we did, then we would probably want to make it a special symbol, not just a reserved symbol, otherwise writing \x-... (using unicode characters of course) wouldn't work, because \x would be treated as a single identifier, you'd need a space. There are a number of mathematical lambdas in Unicode (distinct from teh Greek lambdas), but they are not in the basic multilingual plane and they are presumably not very easy to type :-) Do you know what they are? I couldn't find any other than the greek lambda λ and the latin lambda with stroke ƛ. They're listed under Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols. http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1D400.pdf e.g., 1D6CC mathematical bold small lambda -- Dave Menendez [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.eyrie.org/~zednenem/ ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Unicode's greek lambda
Hello, When the -XUnicodeSyntax option is specified, GHC accepts some Unicode characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? Regards, --Kazu ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Hello Kazu, Tuesday, November 18, 2008, 12:00:25 PM, you wrote: characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? i think it is accepted as usual letter - reason is that greeks can use it in their identifiers :) -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
When the -XUnicodeSyntax option is specified, GHC accepts some Unicode characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? The greek lambda is a normal lower-case alphabetic character - it can be used in identifier names. Regards, Malcolm ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:30:01AM +, Malcolm Wallace wrote: When the -XUnicodeSyntax option is specified, GHC accepts some Unicode characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? The greek lambda is a normal lower-case alphabetic character - it can be used in identifier names. But it could be a reserved word synonymous with \. After all, \ can occur in operator symbols, but the operator \ is reserved. ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 11:51 +, Ross Paterson wrote: On Tue, Nov 18, 2008 at 10:30:01AM +, Malcolm Wallace wrote: When the -XUnicodeSyntax option is specified, GHC accepts some Unicode characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? The greek lambda is a normal lower-case alphabetic character - it can be used in identifier names. But it could be a reserved word synonymous with \. After all, \ can occur in operator symbols, but the operator \ is reserved. Presumably that would let you do (\ x - ...) but not (\x - ) since the \x would run together and lexically it would be one identifier. Duncan ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Quoth Duncan Coutts [EMAIL PROTECTED]: | On Tue, 2008-11-18 at 11:51 +, Ross Paterson wrote: | But it could be a reserved word synonymous with \. After all, \ can | occur in operator symbols, but the operator \ is reserved. | | Presumably that would let you do (\ x - ...) but not (\x - ) since the | \x would run together and lexically it would be one identifier. Good, that's clearly the right way to do it anyway! Donn ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Hello, First of all, thank you for those who replied kindly. When the -XUnicodeSyntax option is specified, GHC accepts some Unicode characters including left/right arrows. Unfortunately, the letter greek lambda cannot be used. Are there any technical reasons to not accept it? The greek lambda is a normal lower-case alphabetic character - it can be used in identifier names. OK. I understand. But it could be a reserved word synonymous with \. After all, \ can occur in operator symbols, but the operator \ is reserved. Presumably that would let you do (\ x - ...) but not (\x - ) since the \x would run together and lexically it would be one identifier. If we reserve the greek lambda as special like '\', the lexer can separate lambdax into two tokens: lambda and 'x', I guess. Some people may want to use the greek lambda in identifiers. And some would want to use the greek lambda as an alternative of '\'. So, how about providing a new option to make the greek lambda special? P.S. I want to type the examples in Programming in Haskell as is. --Kazu ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
On 2008 Nov 18, at 20:53, Kazu Yamamoto (山本和彦) wrote: If we reserve the greek lambda as special like '\', the lexer can separate lambdax into two tokens: lambda and 'x', I guess. Not without redefining it as a symbol instead of a lowercase letter, which won't be done as previously discussed. -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [EMAIL PROTECTED] system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [EMAIL PROTECTED] electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
Re: Unicode's greek lambda
Hello, If we reserve the greek lambda as special like '\', the lexer can separate lambdax into two tokens: lambda and 'x', I guess. Not without redefining it as a symbol instead of a lowercase letter, which won't be done as previously discussed. OK. Fine with me since this topic was previously discussed. --Kazu ___ Glasgow-haskell-users mailing list Glasgow-haskell-users@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/glasgow-haskell-users
