Re: The MySQL petition
Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info writes:
On Fri, 2010-01-08 at 10:50 -0500, Paul Lussier wrote:
That being said, I can only hope for the quick, and painful demise of
both MySql and PHP.
--
Paul - who is trapped in a company with close to 1 million MySql
databases being accessed by really bad PHP code.
...because having close to 1 million {PostgreSQL, Interbase, CouchDB,
SQLite} databases being accessed by really bad {Java, Python, Ruby, C++,
assembler, shell} code would be so much better.
Ben Scott dragonh...@gmail.com writes:
{Microsoft, Oracle, IBM} guy: Having 1 million {MS-SQL, Oracle, DB2}
databases being accessed by really bad {C#, PL/SQL, PL/I} code would
of course be better!
Exactly! :)
I'm glad my post was taken with exactly the intent in which
it was meant... Of course, Ben, et al, know me entirely too well to take
anything I say in such a vain without the largest grain salt available
:)
--
Paul - who still dislikes both MySQL and PHP, but has come to
understand neither is going to be universally replaced by something
better anytime soon.
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Re: The MySQL petition
Jon 'maddog' Hall mad...@li.org writes: On the other hand, I wonder how many government installations are running MySQL at this pointnot that it would or should influence anything. Most MediaWiki installs use MySql by default. Most WordPress installs use MySql by default. Most Joomla installs use MySql by default. And, sadly, almost all FOSS software that requires a back-end database turns to MySql as it's default. There is a lot of government use of said software. MySql isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and based on the fact that Oracle has kept BerkeleyDB alive and well since they bought Sleepycat, I have no reason to believe they'll do anything bad to MySql. That being said, I can only hope for the quick, and painful demise of both MySql and PHP. -- Paul - who is trapped in a company with close to 1 million MySql databases being accessed by really bad PHP code. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, 2010-01-08 at 10:50 -0500, Paul Lussier wrote:
.
That being said, I can only hope for the quick, and painful demise of
both MySql and PHP.
--
Paul - who is trapped in a company with close to 1 million MySql
databases being accessed by really bad PHP code.
...because having close to 1 million {PostgreSQL, Interbase, CouchDB,
SQLite} databases being accessed by really bad {Java, Python, Ruby, C++,
assembler, shell} code would be so much better.
--
Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info
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Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info wrote:
Paul - who is trapped in a company with close to 1 million MySql
databases being accessed by really bad PHP code.
...because having close to 1 million {PostgreSQL, Interbase, CouchDB,
SQLite} databases being accessed by really bad {Java, Python, Ruby, C++,
assembler, shell} code would be so much better.
{Microsoft, Oracle, IBM} guy: Having 1 million {MS-SQL, Oracle, DB2}
databases being accessed by really bad {C#, PL/SQL, PL/I} code would
of course be better!
-- Ben
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Re: The MySQL petition
Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info writes:
On Fri, 2010-01-08 at 10:50 -0500, Paul Lussier wrote:
That being said, I can only hope for the quick, and painful demise of
both MySql and PHP.
--
Paul - who is trapped in a company with close to 1 million MySql
databases being accessed by really bad PHP code.
...because having close to 1 million {PostgreSQL, Interbase, CouchDB,
SQLite} databases being accessed by really bad {Java, Python, Ruby, C++,
assembler, shell} code would be so much better.
(:flame
Well, `bad' is not necessarily as *ingrained* into those
other languages (or DBs) or their cultures)
--
Don't be afraid to ask (λf.((λx.xx) (λr.f(rr.
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Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, 2010-01-08 at 16:03 -0500, Joshua Judson Rosen wrote:
Stephen Ryan step...@sryanfamily.info writes:
On Fri, 2010-01-08 at 10:50 -0500, Paul Lussier wrote:
That being said, I can only hope for the quick, and painful demise of
both MySql and PHP.
--
Paul - who is trapped in a company with close to 1 million MySql
databases being accessed by really bad PHP code.
...because having close to 1 million {PostgreSQL, Interbase, CouchDB,
SQLite} databases being accessed by really bad {Java, Python, Ruby, C++,
assembler, shell} code would be so much better.
(:flame
Well, `bad' is not necessarily as *ingrained* into those
other languages (or DBs) or their cultures)
http://www.thedailywtf.com
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Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 4:03 PM, Joshua Judson Rosen roz...@geekspace.com wrote: (:flame Well, `bad' is not necessarily as *ingrained* into those other languages (or DBs) or their cultures) Anyone who blames bad code on the language has a far bigger problem than the language they're using. (Since we're inciting to riot.) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
While we're debating which language is best, I thought I'd share this pictorial argument: http://www.bootup.io/img/auximg/developers-as-seen-by.jpg plus, an update for haskell http://i.imgur.com/hF6mS.jpg update for C# / .net http://jakemcgraw.com/imgs/langs.jpg Greg Rundlett nbpt 978-225-8302 m. 978-764-4424 -skype/aim/irc/twitter freephile http://profiles.aim.com/freephile ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On 01/08/2010 05:21 PM, Ben Scott wrote: Anyone who blames bad code on the language has a far bigger problem than the language they're using. (Since we're inciting to riot.) Yeah, no sense throwing rationality into a good flamefest. A wise man told me long ago, It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
It's a poor craftsman who blames *only* his tools, without trying to find better ones. It's no better for a craftsman to ignore the effects a tool has on the product. I have yet to find a hardware design toolchain that isn't maddening in at least half a hundred ways. Even the free / open source ones are filled with angry bees. I may actually try to do something about that, though it's a daunting task... --DTVZ On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Ted Roche tedro...@tedroche.com wrote: On 01/08/2010 05:21 PM, Ben Scott wrote: Anyone who blames bad code on the language has a far bigger problem than the language they're using. (Since we're inciting to riot.) Yeah, no sense throwing rationality into a good flamefest. A wise man told me long ago, It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:40 PM, Jeffry Smith jsm...@alum.mit.edu wrote: Could it be the community hasn't stood up because you have to assign copyright to MySQL/Sun/Oracle, and people don't like giving their work to a company to run their business without compensation. What, you don't like being an unpaid employee of MySQL? -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Ben Scott dragonh...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 11:40 PM, Jeffry Smith jsm...@alum.mit.edu wrote: Could it be the community hasn't stood up because you have to assign copyright to MySQL/Sun/Oracle, and people don't like giving their work to a company to run their business without compensation. What, you don't like being an unpaid employee of MySQL? Seems that no one else does either. Amazing how Red Hat can get all those folks to contribute, but MySQL can't. Oh, right - Red Hat GPLs their code, and doesn't (as far as I know) require you to assign copyright to them. Amazing how people respond when they feel they're being treated fairly. jeff ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Jeffry Smith jsm...@alum.mit.edu wrote: Seems that no one else does either. Amazing how Red Hat can get all those folks to contribute, but MySQL can't. Oh, right - Red Hat GPLs their code, and doesn't (as far as I know) require you to assign copyright to them. Amazing how people respond when they feel they're being treated fairly. Woah there nelly. RedHat was just as bad in some cases. Take a look at the eCos situation from several years ago, specifically, the 'Red Hat eCos Public License'. -- -- Thomas ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:13 PM, Thomas Charron twaf...@gmail.com wrote: Woah there nelly. RedHat was just as bad in some cases. Take a look at the eCos situation from several years ago, specifically, the 'Red Hat eCos Public License'. Yah, and how'd that work out for them? -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On 01/01/2010 11:19 AM, Ted Roche wrote: Passing on this email. I'd be interested in your opinions of the issues raised. So Monty want the EU to *force* Oracle to compete against MySQL? Didn't he sell-out already? -Bill -- Bill McGonigle, Owner BFC Computing, LLC http://bfccomputing.com/ Telephone: +1.603.448.4440 Email, IM, VOIP: b...@bfccomputing.com VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf Social networks: bill_mcgonigle/bill.mcgonigle ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
What strikes me is his apparent non-belief in Open Source. Basically, he's arguing that you need to force the disgorgement to protect the current proprietary MySQL clients, and they're needed for continuing development, because the Open Source community hasn't/won't stood up to support MySQL. IAW, without proprietary development, the GPL version would die. Could it be the community hasn't stood up because you have to assign copyright to MySQL/Sun/Oracle, and people don't like giving their work to a company to run their business without compensation. Maybe if the dropped the proprietary version, and dropped the copyright assignment, they'd find a lot of people willing to help. jeff ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Jon 'maddog' Hall mad...@li.org wrote: It is a sad situation, but one that happens every once in a while, and particularly when a profit-making company heads up a FOSS project. In 2008 Sun bought MySQL for 1 Billion dollars, 800 million in cash and 200 million in options. Someone got a lot of money, and quite a few people probably continued to pull a good salary working for Sun, so Sun's stockholders made a real investment in MySQL, even though it was a GPLed product and could have been forked at any time. Sun benefited from MySQL also. When sales went in to sell support, they found the customer was already using it. Sun didn't have to convince them to switch products. This is a good thing for any company looking to fund/buy an open source product. Berkeley DB was an embedded Open Source project maintained by a company called Sleepycat Software and was bought by Oracle. They still maintain it as FOSS and sell support. An **lots** of products use it. I'm thinking sqlite, Sun's LDAP use it or a varient. Granted, Oracle markets and pushes its own database engine, but what would have happened if Sun had simply went bankrupt and the intellectual property just disappeared? It happened to a lot of technologies from DEC when Compaq took over. I'm still supporting a Tru64 system. Phased out in favor of HP-UX on itanium. To be replaced with Linux on itanium *sigh*. I remember trying the binary translator for SunOS to OSF/1 back in the day. It was very nice. I suspect there will be a market for something like that for Intel Windows or Windows CE to ARM Linux in the coming years. On the other hand, I wonder how many government installations are running MySQL at this pointnot that it would or should influence anything. And more importantly, how many are paying for support. Oracle won't want to walk away from that revenue and it also help the OSS community. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com wrote: No, but its a sign of developer interest and activity. Sqlite and postgres have Py3 support, MySQL does not. That doesn't equal MySQL is stagnant. Perhaps there's simply not much interest in MySQL within the Python community. MySQL does have a reputation of being popular with the PHP crowd; maybe that's where the interest lies. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Mon, 2010-01-04 at 10:57 -0500, Ben Scott wrote: On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com wrote: No, but its a sign of developer interest and activity. Sqlite and postgres have Py3 support, MySQL does not. That doesn't equal MySQL is stagnant. Perhaps there's simply not much interest in MySQL within the Python community. MySQL does have a reputation of being popular with the PHP crowd; maybe that's where the interest lies. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ I believe that the PY3 port of Python-mysql (MySQLdb) will happen after some changes to the Py2 version to allow a common code-base between both versions. -- Lloyd Kvam Venix Corp DLSLUG/GNHLUG library http://dlslug.org/library.html http://www.librarything.com/catalog/dlslug http://www.librarything.com/rsshtml/recent/dlslug http://www.librarything.com/rss/recent/dlslug ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Ted Roche tedro...@tedroche.com wrote: Passing on this email. I'd be interested in your opinions of the issues raised. MySQL is GPL. Oracle can do whatever they want, but the code itself has already been freed (as in freedom). Oracle can't put that genie back in the bottle. The most they can do is force the community to completely fork the project, thereby relinquishing whatever influence they might otherwise have. Turning the cynicism dial up to 11, I'd say what Monty is really afraid of is that if Oracle shuts down what used to be MySQL, Inc., he would be out of a job, and he might lose stature in the community. The community might dethrone him. Right now he's more-or-less in charge, and his company has a wonderful marketing tool, in that the name of the project is also the name of his company. Any corporate fork would need to do much more marketing. And Oracle's marketing department is doubtless much better funded. There are alternative scenarios that don't involve rethinking the Widenius family budget. People who choose MySQL generally are doing so because it's not owned and controlled by a big company who demands big payments -- in other words, because it's not Oracle, Microsoft, IBM, etc. They're unlikely to start handing Larry Ellison bags of cash just because Oracle now owns the MySQL trademark. Widenius could capitalize on that, open up a new shop selling support, services, and consulting, similar to what he does now. Of course, he wouldn't own the copyrights, so he couldn't sell proprietary licenses on the side, and he's have to compete on his merits only, without the name. Too bad, so sad. But then, it seems to work out okay for Red Hat. Welcome to the Free Software never-going-out-of-business sale, available at an FTP site near you! (origin unclear) -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com wrote: We have PostgreSQL, which has a much healthier development community and Py3 support already. Shocking though this may be to some, Python support is not *everyone's* most critical feature. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
No, but its a sign of developer interest and activity. Sqlite and postgres have Py3 support, MySQL does not. On Jan 1, 2010 2:43 PM, Ben Scott dragonh...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Arc Riley arcri...@gmail.com wrote: We have PostgreSQL, which h... Shocking though this may be to some, Python support is not *everyone's* most critical feature. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-disc...@mail.gnhl... ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
It is a sad situation, but one that happens every once in a while, and particularly when a profit-making company heads up a FOSS project. In 2008 Sun bought MySQL for 1 Billion dollars, 800 million in cash and 200 million in options. Someone got a lot of money, and quite a few people probably continued to pull a good salary working for Sun, so Sun's stockholders made a real investment in MySQL, even though it was a GPLed product and could have been forked at any time. And we should not overlook the effort of forking the code. Yes, the code itself is GPLed (and MySQL did a good job of keeping the GPLed version fairly cheek-to-cheek with the features of the commercial version), but there is a lot of IP in the behind-the-scenes code and set up of testing tools, building tools, etc. that would have to be duplicated. And as Ben pointed out, the name, brand, etc. has a lot of worth. If these were not true, then Sun would not have spent 1 Billion dollars to buy MySQL. Now Sun has been sold to Oracle. The argument is that Oracle might kill off MySQL or simply let it languish. Unfortunately for the MySQL folks Oracle does not have a history of doing this. In 1994 they bought Rdb from Digital, moved the engineering people to another building close by Digital's Spitbrook Rd facility, and as late as 2008 was still updating and improving Rdb. Yes, they dropped support for Rdb on Tru64 Unix, but that is mostly because Tru64 disappeared. AFAIK Oracle is still supporting it on OpenVMS. Berkeley DB was an embedded Open Source project maintained by a company called Sleepycat Software and was bought by Oracle. They still maintain it as FOSS and sell support. Granted, Oracle markets and pushes its own database engine, but what would have happened if Sun had simply went bankrupt and the intellectual property just disappeared? It happened to a lot of technologies from DEC when Compaq took over. Yes, Oracle is a dominant database company, but there are other databases out there that are FOSS which people could use: o PostgreSQL o Firebird and some interesting ones coming out: o MongoDB o CouchDB and there are other commercial database companies (Microsoft SQL, IBM's DB2 anyone?) so the government might be loath to intervene under anti-trust laws. The petition is reasonably written, with reasonable alternatives. I just think that forcing Oracle to sell off something that Sun was willing to pay 1 Billion dollars for just a year earlier on the premise that Oracle would not manage it well is probably something that will not fly. On the other hand, I wonder how many government installations are running MySQL at this pointnot that it would or should influence anything. md ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
The feelings on the Oracle acquisition seem quite split in the open source community. Eben Moglen of the Software Freedom Law Center wrote an opinion to the European Commission in favor of the acquisition [1] and Pamela Jones of Groklaw has written a few articles about the merger in support including one specifically addressing Moglen's letter [2]. At work, we were becoming concerned about MySQL as the community was already becoming fragmented prior to Oracle's arrival on the scene. In addition to the official Sun MySQL builds, there are enhanced builds with commercial support from Percona [3] and OurDelta [4]. OurDelta is from former MySQL employees. Monty Widenius himself, has forked MySQL as well as part of the MariaDB project [5]. And there's the cloud geared fork/refactor called Drizzle [6]. Monty also challenged Oracle on stewardship of MySQL and they responded that they would keep MySQL GPLed. [discussion at 7]. maddog has already commented in this thread on some Oracle acquisitions that have been kept in good faith by Oracle. I think another important one to mention is InnoDB, the popular transactional database engine that comes with MySQL. InnoDB is designed and maintained by Innobase Oy, a wholly owned subsidiary of Oracle [8] (acquired in October 2005). I'm no big fan of Oracle, but MySQL has enough issues and community splintering. I think this fight over the Oracle acquisition does nothing but continue to hurt MySQL. I also think Oracle has shown enough good faith in past acquisitions that MySQL will be ok in their ownership. Besides, there's always Postgresql [9]. :) -Shawn [1] http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/2009/dec/04/software-freedom-law-center-submits-opinion-oracle/ [2] http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20091204095942328 [3] http://www.percona.com/ [4] http://ourdelta.org/ [5] http://askmonty.org/wiki/index.php/MariaDB [6] http://drizzle.org/ [7] http://thecommandline.net/2009/12/14/montys-challenge-to-oracle-over-mysql-stewardship-and-their-response/ [8] http://www.innodb.com/ [9] http://www.postgresql.org/ On Fri, Jan 1, 2010 at 11:19 AM, Ted Roche tedro...@tedroche.com wrote: Passing on this email. I'd be interested in your opinions of the issues raised. Hi! I am contacting you because you have in the past shown interest in MySQL and from that I assume you are interested in the future well-being of MySQL. Now you have a unique opportunity to make a difference. By signing the petition at http://www.helpmysql.org you can help affect the future of MySQL as an Open Source database. You can find more information of this on my latest blog post at:http://monty-says.blogspot.com/2009/12/help-keep-internet-free.html Help us spread the world about this petition!http://www.helpmysql.org is available in 18 languages and every vote is important, independent of from where in the world it comes! If you know people that are using MySQL, please contact them and ensure they also sign the petition! Regards, Monty Creator of MySQL PS: If you already have signed the petition or know about it, sorry for reminding you about this! Because of the importance of this issue, I am trying to contact every person that I have ever communicated with regarding MySQL. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLChttp://www.tedroche.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: The MySQL petition
On Fri, 2010-01-01 at 11:43 -0500, Arc Riley wrote: We have PostgreSQL, which has a much healthier development community and Py3 support already. The MySQL community is already fractured from the Sun purchase, isn't it a little late to save it? Sun did not do too much harm. MySQL fills a niche between sqlite and postgresql. Administration is very simple. Loosely coupled replication is built in. Some of us may be locked into the last stable release for a while depending upon events. -- Lloyd Kvam Venix Corp DLSLUG/GNHLUG library http://dlslug.org/library.html http://www.librarything.com/catalog/dlslug http://www.librarything.com/rsshtml/recent/dlslug http://www.librarything.com/rss/recent/dlslug ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
