Re: Application names
William Jon McCann wrote: So, in preparation for GNOME Shell and 3.0 a number of us have been trying to address various inconsistencies in how we name applications. [...] What do you think? (please read the blog post before answering) After further discussion on the XDG mailing list and an agreement with David Faure of KDE fame, I propose this goal, that will allow to both have Name keys suitable for gnome-shell and to keep the current entries in gnome-panel. The guidelines are: - If Name is just the application name, leave it alone - If there is no GenericName, leave it alone - If Name == GenericName: remove GenericName - If Name embeds both the application name and the generic name - Add X-FullName, with what was in Name - Set Name to the application name only http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/CorrectDesktopFiles Impact for translations: at most a new string for each modules, with the application brand name (that could be left alone, for languages that do not do transliteration). Impact for documentation: none (once libgnomedesktop gets its new get_display_name() API). Is everybody ok to proceed ? Cheers, Frederic ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
seems fine... :) On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Frederic Petersfpet...@gnome.org wrote: William Jon McCann wrote: So, in preparation for GNOME Shell and 3.0 a number of us have been trying to address various inconsistencies in how we name applications. [...] What do you think? (please read the blog post before answering) After further discussion on the XDG mailing list and an agreement with David Faure of KDE fame, I propose this goal, that will allow to both have Name keys suitable for gnome-shell and to keep the current entries in gnome-panel. The guidelines are: - If Name is just the application name, leave it alone - If there is no GenericName, leave it alone - If Name == GenericName: remove GenericName - If Name embeds both the application name and the generic name - Add X-FullName, with what was in Name - Set Name to the application name only http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/CorrectDesktopFiles Impact for translations: at most a new string for each modules, with the application brand name (that could be left alone, for languages that do not do transliteration). Impact for documentation: none (once libgnomedesktop gets its new get_display_name() API). Is everybody ok to proceed ? Cheers, Frederic ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Frederic Petersfpet...@gnome.org wrote: Is everybody ok to proceed ? Sounds good to me. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Frederic Petersfpet...@gnome.org wrote: - If Name is just the application name, leave it alone - If there is no GenericName, leave it alone - If Name == GenericName: remove GenericName - If Name embeds both the application name and the generic name - Add X-FullName, with what was in Name - Set Name to the application name only This sounds reasonable; what we should do is make a list of the .desktop files which had Name=FullName, and get a tracker bug for migrating them. Also, from the code perspective, we need to land support for reading the key. There's two parts to this; gnome-menus and gio. There's an outstanding gnome-panel patch which needs to be ported to gnome-menus, and we also need to reimplement it for gio. And that patch needs to be updated to take advantage of X-FullName if available. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
On Tue, 2009-08-18 at 16:06 +0200, Frederic Peters wrote: William Jon McCann wrote: So, in preparation for GNOME Shell and 3.0 a number of us have been trying to address various inconsistencies in how we name applications. [...] What do you think? (please read the blog post before answering) After further discussion on the XDG mailing list and an agreement with David Faure of KDE fame, I propose this goal, that will allow to both have Name keys suitable for gnome-shell and to keep the current entries in gnome-panel. The guidelines are: - If Name is just the application name, leave it alone - If there is no GenericName, leave it alone - If Name == GenericName: remove GenericName - If Name embeds both the application name and the generic name - Add X-FullName, with what was in Name - Set Name to the application name only http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/CorrectDesktopFiles Impact for translations: at most a new string for each modules, with the application brand name (that could be left alone, for languages that do not do transliteration). Will we get automagic translator comments so that Rhythmbox doesn't get translated to Boîte à Rythmes in French? Impact for documentation: none (once libgnomedesktop gets its new get_display_name() API). Is everybody ok to proceed ? Cheers ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
Bastien Nocera wrote: Impact for translations: at most a new string for each modules, with the application brand name (that could be left alone, for languages that do not do transliteration). Will we get automagic translator comments so that Rhythmbox doesn't get translated to Boîte à Rythmes in French? The .po file will mention the string origin, and translators know they don't want to translate application names. (intltool could be patched to add a this string is from the Name key of a desktop file comment but I don't think it is necessary). Frederic ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
Em Ter, 2009-08-18 às 16:02 +0100, Bastien Nocera escreveu: Will we get automagic translator comments so that Rhythmbox doesn't get translated to Boîte à Rythmes in French? https://bugs.launchpad.net/intltool/+bug/410972 -- Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle leonar...@gnome.org ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names (2)
Le jeudi 13 août 2009 à 12:13 -0300, Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle a écrit : The menu standards discussion reminded me of something I wish I asked here a long time ago. Let's consider Eye of GNOME / Image Viewer as an example. Eye of GNOME is without a doubt a proper name. When it is translated, what do maintainers expect: actual translation (Olho do GNOME) or transliteration only? In my opinion, such names should not be translated, except for transliteration depending on the script used. And Image Viewer, can it be considered a proper name? If it's not a proper name, why is it capitalized as such? In Portuguese we translate proper names with initial caps (Visualizador de Imagens), and regular names with only an inicial cap (Visualizador de imagens), so that kind of definition is important for us and possibly for many other languages. English tend to add uppercase everywhere :-P Yes, generic names are suitable for translation. My 2 cents, Claude ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names (2)
Hallo 2009/8/13 Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle leonar...@gnome.org: The menu standards discussion reminded me of something I wish I asked here a long time ago. Let's consider Eye of GNOME / Image Viewer as an example. Eye of GNOME is without a doubt a proper name. When it is translated, what do maintainers expect: actual translation (Olho do GNOME) or transliteration only? With regards to this question I am a little torn. Sometimes, when it is possible to make a nice translation I think it can be fine to do so, but on the other hand it does not reaaly make much sense to translate names and having a policy about it makes it simpler for the user to figure out as well, so I agree with Claude. Regards Kenneth Nielsen And Image Viewer, can it be considered a proper name? If it's not a proper name, why is it capitalized as such? In Portuguese we translate proper names with initial caps (Visualizador de Imagens), and regular names with only an inicial cap (Visualizador de imagens), so that kind of definition is important for us and possibly for many other languages. -- Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle leonar...@gnome.org ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names (2)
if applications had to change their name to match what they do, and then those new names have to be translated, how do we change pidgin... blender, inkscape pidgin is not el pichon blender es licuadora like in the kitchen... sadly jejej inkscape seria el escape de la tinta, seems like a movie title i don't agree with name changes, weird application names gives free software something that regular software does not have, even with acronyms like the GIMP, VLC and others... I support an application's actual and real name. On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 9:32 AM, Kenneth Nielsenk.nielse...@gmail.com wrote: Hallo 2009/8/13 Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle leonar...@gnome.org: The menu standards discussion reminded me of something I wish I asked here a long time ago. Let's consider Eye of GNOME / Image Viewer as an example. Eye of GNOME is without a doubt a proper name. When it is translated, what do maintainers expect: actual translation (Olho do GNOME) or transliteration only? With regards to this question I am a little torn. Sometimes, when it is possible to make a nice translation I think it can be fine to do so, but on the other hand it does not reaaly make much sense to translate names and having a policy about it makes it simpler for the user to figure out as well, so I agree with Claude. Regards Kenneth Nielsen And Image Viewer, can it be considered a proper name? If it's not a proper name, why is it capitalized as such? In Portuguese we translate proper names with initial caps (Visualizador de Imagens), and regular names with only an inicial cap (Visualizador de imagens), so that kind of definition is important for us and possibly for many other languages. -- Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle leonar...@gnome.org ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names (2)
On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 10:35:36AM +0200, Claude Paroz wrote: Le jeudi 13 août 2009 à 12:13 -0300, Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle a écrit : The menu standards discussion reminded me of something I wish I asked here a long time ago. Let's consider Eye of GNOME / Image Viewer as an example. Eye of GNOME is without a doubt a proper name. When it is translated, what do maintainers expect: actual translation (Olho do GNOME) or transliteration only? In my opinion, such names should not be translated, except for transliteration depending on the script used. For Arabic, we tend to translate application names when it makes sense. For example, transliterating Bug Buddy or Eye of Gnome will give long ugly meaningless names, while translating it helps maintaining the same user experience that English users get. Names that are unrelated to applications function, like Firefox, Thunderbird and acronyms like GIMP or usually transliterated. Regards, Khaled -- Khaled Hosny Arabic localiser and member of Arabeyes.org team Free font developer signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Application names (2)
The menu standards discussion reminded me of something I wish I asked here a long time ago. Let's consider Eye of GNOME / Image Viewer as an example. Eye of GNOME is without a doubt a proper name. When it is translated, what do maintainers expect: actual translation (Olho do GNOME) or transliteration only? And Image Viewer, can it be considered a proper name? If it's not a proper name, why is it capitalized as such? In Portuguese we translate proper names with initial caps (Visualizador de Imagens), and regular names with only an inicial cap (Visualizador de imagens), so that kind of definition is important for us and possibly for many other languages. -- Leonardo Ferreira Fontenelle leonar...@gnome.org ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
2009/8/11 Alexey Rusakov kt...@altlinux.org: В Пнд, 10/08/2009 в 22:43 +0200, Luca Ferretti пишет: Il giorno lun, 10/08/2009 alle 17.24 +0200, Christian Rose ha scritto: This is an interesting point. Yes, an OpenWithLabel is probably actually needed for translation reasons. Another example, using Swedish: Open with - Öppna med but Wrong: Öppna med Webbläsaren Epiphany Correct: Öppna med webbläsaren Epiphany Same for Italian, we workarounded this always using quote marks. original: Open with Text Editor Italian: Apri con Editor di testo The same problem was here with Russian language. Even two problems, actually. First, there's a problem with declension: in Russian, you need another grammatical case (Instrumental) after Открыть (Open with) verb. This problem has been solved by using Открыть в программе (Open in a program) as a translation for Open with, so that we could use applications names in Nominative case. After that, however, we were merely obliged to use quotes, since the word program actually required it. So, in 2.26 for some archive, e.g., I see a Russian equivalent of Open in a program «Archive Manager», which is more or less ok, although a bit clumsy. PS However, about the original question and any subsequent issue, we are still lacking feedback from non European languages, if I'm right. Hopefully, I gave some :) Same problem for Belarusian and other Slavic languages (though they are European too). These Open with a program 'x' constructions are too bloated for context menus and looks horrible. -- Alexey Ktirf Rusakov GNOME Project ALT Linux Team ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
Christian Rose skrev: On 8/10/09, William Jon McCann william.jon.mcc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Vincent Untzvu...@gnome.org wrote: [...] Two questions: + unless I missed something, Colin's patch is for gnome-panel only. What about Open With, and all the other places where we display the applications? An excellent point. And we should probably consider each of these individually. It is a little strange that we are designing FullName proposal around the implementation details of gnome-panel. There are at least two cases for open with. We have menu entries in context menus on files and we have the full Open With dialog. My thinking currently is that open with menu should simply use the Name. Since: * The default handler is already set and doesn't need to be discovered * If you are looking for a specific app you know the name * We don't show the comment either (which is really essential for discovery) since we assume you recognize the name already * If you don't find it there you can go into the dialog for for discovery The Open With dialog is another story and has a number of design problems. Won't go into those here. Technically, if we follow the logic of FullName (which is really just the gnome-panel name) we should also add a OpenWithLabel to the desktop file or have translatable actions since the following is also wrong: g_strdup_printf (_(Open with %s), g_app_info_get_name (application)); Right? Unless we don't consider names to be translated or require articles or the resulting string to be a proper sentence. This is an interesting point. Yes, an OpenWithLabel is probably actually needed for translation reasons. Another example, using Swedish: Open with - Öppna med but Wrong: Öppna med Webbläsaren Epiphany Correct: Öppna med webbläsaren Epiphany The reason is that the capitalization rules in Swedish (and this is true for many languages) are rather strict compared to English; only the beginning of sentences and proper names must ever be capitalized. Concepts like book title capitalization does not exist in Swedish and would be considered a grammatical error. But this is of course a whole other issue. Just for information, the prefix Open with was removed from nautilus (see [1]) but it might present in other applications. [1] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587533 + translators have stated that it's wrong to do Name - GenericName programmatically. So, hrm, why would we not listen to them? That hasn't been established. In the xdg-list thread one of the last comments from Christian Rose said this: Webbläsare - Epiphany or Webbläsare (Epiphany) is not wrong per se, it's just bad language style. I was using Swedish as an example as it is my mother tongue. And your question was about my specific example, using Swedish. That does not imply that this issue may have, and probably has, other implications on some of the world's other several thousand languages! Please do not generalize. In my experience, it is better not to assume too much about other languages and their conformity with English. Christian ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-l...@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
В Пнд, 10/08/2009 в 22:43 +0200, Luca Ferretti пишет: Il giorno lun, 10/08/2009 alle 17.24 +0200, Christian Rose ha scritto: This is an interesting point. Yes, an OpenWithLabel is probably actually needed for translation reasons. Another example, using Swedish: Open with - Öppna med but Wrong: Öppna med Webbläsaren Epiphany Correct: Öppna med webbläsaren Epiphany Same for Italian, we workarounded this always using quote marks. original: Open with Text Editor Italian: Apri con Editor di testo The same problem was here with Russian language. Even two problems, actually. First, there's a problem with declension: in Russian, you need another grammatical case (Instrumental) after Открыть (Open with) verb. This problem has been solved by using Открыть в программе (Open in a program) as a translation for Open with, so that we could use applications names in Nominative case. After that, however, we were merely obliged to use quotes, since the word program actually required it. So, in 2.26 for some archive, e.g., I see a Russian equivalent of Open in a program «Archive Manager», which is more or less ok, although a bit clumsy. PS However, about the original question and any subsequent issue, we are still lacking feedback from non European languages, if I'm right. Hopefully, I gave some :) -- Alexey Ktirf Rusakov GNOME Project ALT Linux Team signature.asc Description: Эта часть сообщения подписана цифровой подписью ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
On 8/10/09, William Jon McCann william.jon.mcc...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Vincent Untzvu...@gnome.org wrote: [...] Two questions: + unless I missed something, Colin's patch is for gnome-panel only. What about Open With, and all the other places where we display the applications? An excellent point. And we should probably consider each of these individually. It is a little strange that we are designing FullName proposal around the implementation details of gnome-panel. There are at least two cases for open with. We have menu entries in context menus on files and we have the full Open With dialog. My thinking currently is that open with menu should simply use the Name. Since: * The default handler is already set and doesn't need to be discovered * If you are looking for a specific app you know the name * We don't show the comment either (which is really essential for discovery) since we assume you recognize the name already * If you don't find it there you can go into the dialog for for discovery The Open With dialog is another story and has a number of design problems. Won't go into those here. Technically, if we follow the logic of FullName (which is really just the gnome-panel name) we should also add a OpenWithLabel to the desktop file or have translatable actions since the following is also wrong: g_strdup_printf (_(Open with %s), g_app_info_get_name (application)); Right? Unless we don't consider names to be translated or require articles or the resulting string to be a proper sentence. This is an interesting point. Yes, an OpenWithLabel is probably actually needed for translation reasons. Another example, using Swedish: Open with - Öppna med but Wrong: Öppna med Webbläsaren Epiphany Correct: Öppna med webbläsaren Epiphany The reason is that the capitalization rules in Swedish (and this is true for many languages) are rather strict compared to English; only the beginning of sentences and proper names must ever be capitalized. Concepts like book title capitalization does not exist in Swedish and would be considered a grammatical error. But this is of course a whole other issue. + translators have stated that it's wrong to do Name - GenericName programmatically. So, hrm, why would we not listen to them? That hasn't been established. In the xdg-list thread one of the last comments from Christian Rose said this: Webbläsare - Epiphany or Webbläsare (Epiphany) is not wrong per se, it's just bad language style. I was using Swedish as an example as it is my mother tongue. And your question was about my specific example, using Swedish. That does not imply that this issue may have, and probably has, other implications on some of the world's other several thousand languages! Please do not generalize. In my experience, it is better not to assume too much about other languages and their conformity with English. Christian ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
Re: Application names
Il giorno lun, 10/08/2009 alle 17.24 +0200, Christian Rose ha scritto: This is an interesting point. Yes, an OpenWithLabel is probably actually needed for translation reasons. Another example, using Swedish: Open with - Öppna med but Wrong: Öppna med Webbläsaren Epiphany Correct: Öppna med webbläsaren Epiphany Same for Italian, we workarounded this always using quote marks. original: Open with Text Editor Italian: Apri con Editor di testo PS However, about the original question and any subsequent issue, we are still lacking feedback from non European languages, if I'm right. ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i18n@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n
