Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Sun, 2011-01-02 at 08:50 +1100, Bojan Smojver wrote: For expose, I'm sorry that you don't like, but before we remove the feature or make it optional, we need to understand why you feel it is wrong. The problem with expose is that it moves your windows around and resizes them, many times unnecessarily. When one uses workspaces, it is often not required to have windows that overlap each other. In other words, one sets the windows on each worspace so that they are fully visible. That's the point of having workspaces - you get much more screen real estate. The eye and the brain remember the size and the position of windows. I'm somewhat worried by the seemingly exclusive focus of Shell design on a workspace-based method of window organization. I don't use them, and really don't find any advantage in using them. I set up my laptop with workspaces based on the two monitors I use on my desktop, and really tried to like it, just to try and drink the kool-aid for Shell; I didn't feel that it gave me any discernible advantage at all, and I felt two or three small disadvantages. I never once found myself 'naturally' switching between workspaces, as I do find myself 'naturally' using new UI elements I find really useful (like the sidebar in old Shell, or the application run dialog in the overview of any Shell). I just carried on switching between applications, and when one app happened to be on a different workspace, I saw a 'workspace shift' animation. No, I have no data, but I rather suspect a lot of users don't actually open enough windows at once - and, particularly, enough *small* windows which you can sensibly arrange in non-overlapping fashion on a typical monitor - to benefit from workspaces, much less the ridiculous numbers of workspaces lately being discussed on this list. A typical work session of mine has only two windows - a terminal and my password manager - which I could really usefully organize as an individual workspace; obviously, a password manager and a console ain't a useful work area. All my other windows are full-screen or close to it. Are we really expecting everyone to voluntarily migrate to a new method of working, whose benefits are probably small and likely obscure to them? History suggests this is not likely to happen. Am I missing some vital principle of a workspace-based system which would enable me to take some advantage from it (what)? If so, I like to flatter myself that I'm a vaguely savvy and informed user; do we expect others won't have this problem? Or do we expect that my use case is sufficiently odd that I'm not a useful test subject and most people really will have such a set of windows as will be conducive to a workspace-based system? Are there plans to somehow expose the greatness of workspaces to users to mitigate it? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
Dne 3.1.2011 12:21:54 napsal Adam Williamson: No, I have no data, but I rather suspect a lot of users don't actually open enough windows at once - and, particularly, enough *small* windows which you can sensibly arrange in non-overlapping fashion on a typical monitor - to benefit from workspaces, much less the ridiculous numbers of workspaces lately being discussed on this list. A typical work session of mine has only two windows - a terminal and my password manager - which I could really usefully organize as an individual workspace; obviously, a password manager and a console ain't a useful work area. All my other windows are full-screen or close to it. Are we really expecting everyone to voluntarily migrate to a new method of working, whose benefits are probably small and likely obscure to them? History suggests this is not likely to happen. Am I missing some vital principle of a workspace-based system which would enable me to take some advantage from it (what)? If so, I like to flatter myself that I'm a vaguely savvy and informed user; do we expect others won't have this problem? Or do we expect that my use case is sufficiently odd that I'm not a useful test subject and most people really will have such a set of windows as will be conducive to a workspace-based system? Are there plans to somehow expose the greatness of workspaces to users to mitigate it? Hi, It's not just about small windows. I dare say most of the windows we use today are maximized (be it browser, mail client, text editor). The workspace concept is useful particularly for _those_. Because when I have several such maximized windows opened (any way of switching between them from the old-school Alt+Tab to expose-like views is slow and costly). However, switching workspaces can be lighting fast. If I assign keystrokes to each (which is the only reasonable way of switching workspaces anyway), I can get _directly_ to the one I want. For example I know I have my browser running at workspace, so I press Super+F3 or sth similar and I _am there_. It takes about a tenth of a second. When I am copying information from a website (WS 3) to a document (WS 5) and sometimes I need a dictionary (WS 6), I am just alternately pressing Super+F3 and Super+F5 and even the occasional Super+F6 doesn't mess it up. Because the keystrokes are absolute, context-independent. You don't have to think about where you are, just about where you want to go. And you go right there, with one keystroke, you don't have to look for the right application, either by repeatedly pressing Alt+Tab or by looking it up in some kind of an overview. It's useful from three windows upwards and especially for the static ones that you access a lot (browser, IM, etc.). Anytime I want to google something in the middle of any work, I just press Super+F3 Ctrl+K query Return. Less than a second. So, that's the point, I suppose Regards Filip Štědronský -- regn...@seznam.cz regn...@jabber.cz http://regnarg.ofight.org/ V upřímné lásce nezáleží na tom, jak úžasného člověka potkáte; důležité je, aby vám spolu bylo fajn. --anonym ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On 1/1/2011 6:55 AM, Giovanni Campagna wrote: Il giorno ven, 31/12/2010 alle 01.42 -0800, Nex6 ha scritto: On 12/29/2010 02:50 PM, Giovanni Campagna wrote: Il giorno mer, 29/12/2010 alle 14.17 -0800, Nex6 ha scritto: hi all, Current (2.91.4 / git master) gnome-shell experience is very different from the Fedora 14 packaged one (2.31.5). You should use jhbuild to get the latest version, follow instructions at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell#building as soon as I get a chance I will upgrade to the latest. You really should. Many of the issues you report have been fixed (or anyway changed) in later versions, so it's like we're talking about two different programs. While being different is a marketing point, as it marks the reason for switching to GNOME, gnome-shell is not different for the sake of beign different, every design decision (including the most discussed ones, and including those still under discussion) have been made for its merits. Moving in particular to the zooming effect exposed by the Activities button, this has been reported many times by various users, but it is explicitly part of the design, as the purpose of that mode is to give an overview (hence the technical name, Activities Overview) of active windows, applications, and tasks (in the future, 3.1, it will have contacts, desktop search, zeitgeist logging, etc.). Still under discussion is the behaviour wrt window management inside the workspace. Some proposals concentrated on gesture-based window management + shading of minimized windows (possibly shading to icon only), other instead wanted a gesture or button to emulate Alt-tab, or showing the favourite application list on the left of the workspace. while I, as a Systems Design Engineer fully understand the its by design reasoning and although I have not seen the latest builds the paradigm that Gnome-Shell brings does not necessary mean that its correct. in fact, the OSX influences are very apparent. and for the record I don't like them in OSX either... why should after I login by default getting to my first application is two clicks at least? (unless I create a desktop shortcut?) Or you set up gnome-session to restore your previous session, or set that application to autostart. It is even better than gnome-panel (mouse to Applications, click, mouse to the relevant section, wait to open, mouse to the application, click), in gnome-shell you just mouse to hot-corner, wait to open, mouse to the application in the favorite list, click. I am not crazy about the whole expose, overview workflow. i dont like it in OSX either. On my OSX machine (for work testing) i have different accounts configured differently. the one with expose turned off is the one i use the most. I will use Gnome shell, and will upgrade to the latest build when i get a chance. I tend to like quick-luanch icons. which Gnome shell takes away. sure, some people buy into the apple UI paradigm and they actually like it. and that's ok... but... at least apple allows you to flip expose off, and has the dock to have quick launch icons. and with Virtual desktops (spaces) you can work however you want and the whole, copying OSXs application view (which I think is terrible in OSX) is likewise a bad idea. if it was combined with a category like view it would be fine but the whole OSX likeness is flawed. and is less useful then even OSX as I can turn off expose in osx. There is a category view in current gnome-shell (but see bug 638271). For expose, I'm sorry that you don't like, but before we remove the feature or make it optional, we need to understand why you feel it is wrong. while Gnome shell brings alot of good things that could be great, the workflow and use patterns seem very flawed. (at least with the build I have seen). if your going to try and be different the windows and OSX, at least offer productivity gains Well, both the developers and the designers, as well as some early testers, reported improvements in workflow and usability with gnome-shell, compared to gnome-panel (default layout) + metacity. So this claim must be substantiated. Some people like, very mouse driven click driven workflows. This is part of the apple UI paradigm. there is alot of great stuff in Gnome shell. but forcing a workflow, does not work. even apple in all its dracionisms does not do this. not costs ok, why not: make the activities a drop down menu/sidebar with no zooming, or better yet make it optional/move the zoom some where else. The main point of the Activities Overview is to show all the windows at the same time, so this does not make sense in the current design. flawed, if its the main view your interacting with. you can not add icons to the taskbar only the desktop. and using alt-tab is now broken as if I have 4 terminal windows open the alt tab on loads all of them does not flip thru them as single windows. I don't understand your first sentence. You can
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Bojan Smojver bo...@rexursive.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 15:37 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: What make you think that we are exclusively focused on workspaces? Our expectation is really that a lot of users will never use them. More people are aware of workspaces these days then you may expect. Lots of folks have either Apple or Android phones, which have some concept of workspaces (at least for the menu grid if nothing else). Many also use various pads, which also have workspaces of one type or another. Workspaces may have been unusual in the days of complete Windows domination (during which time everybody had to suffer the cluttered, all windows of top of each other UI). Not any more. Yes, this is true, the phones interestingly enough are bringing in workspaces. Iphone for instances uses workspaces internally for their web browser. So I think people will grasp workspaces quite easily the only thing would be the constant temptation to reach for the screen and move the workspace by hand. Shell has an interface that would work in a phone fairly well. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 17:38 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: There are going to be improvements for switching between workspaces (see http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/), but current plans are to keep things a two-level thing - switch workspaces than switch windows. If I understand things correctly (and this is how the tip of git behaved for me), right now it's actually the other way around. If I want to switch workspaces, I'm forced to choose a window in another workspace. This is what causes by default expose behaviour. No? I'm all for switching workspaces without even touching windows. When I go to overview, I'd like my workspaces presented as they are. No need to move windows around to switch workspaces. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Tue, 2011-01-04 at 09:46 +1100, Bojan Smojver wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 17:38 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: There are going to be improvements for switching between workspaces (see http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/), but current plans are to keep things a two-level thing - switch workspaces than switch windows. If I understand things correctly (and this is how the tip of git behaved for me), right now it's actually the other way around. If I want to switch workspaces, I'm forced to choose a window in another workspace. This is what causes by default expose behaviour. No? I can't correlate this at all with the behavior of Git master. When you go to the overview in Git master, you see all the windows of the current workspace spread out before you and no windows of other workspaces. You can switch workspaces: - by clicking on the workspace squares at the bottom of the screen - as a gesture by dragging on the background (though this is basically unusable because you have to drag on a particular part of the background) - via keynav I'm all for switching workspaces without even touching windows. When I go to overview, I'd like my workspaces presented as they are. No need to move windows around to switch workspaces. The overview is our main way of allowing the user to access buried windows, so I think it has to be primarily about switching windows - we can't just drop the window switching functionality and make it a workspace switcher. - Owen ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 17:52 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: When you go to the overview in Git master, you see all the windows of the current workspace spread out before you and no windows of other workspaces. Which is a problem in itself. No visibility. You can switch workspaces: - by clicking on the workspace squares at the bottom of the screen And after that by finding/clicking on my window on the workspace I want, after it has been moved and resized by expose. Current workspace switcher does two things better: 1. Shows windows the way they really are. 2. Uses logical orientation for layout of workspaces, which is in line with animation in compiz (left-to-right). (I'm referring here to jimmac's mock-up to have workspaces in top-to-bottom layout, which doesn't make sense for something that's left-to-right). There is also the question of distance here. I have to travel all the way to the bottom to do a workspace switch. It would make more sense to have these closer to Activities button. When it comes to actually switching windows on a single workspace (which is the primary function as you said), I get your point. Essentially Activities means expose. If we had workspaces laid out closer to the Activities button (i.e. near the top of the screen, see my mock-up), with proper visual representation of windows on the workspace switcher and the ability to actually switch directly, I think I wouldn't even look at expose style windows below. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 23:06 +, Adam Williamson wrote: I'm not sure to what extent you can expect people to make this leap. So, what you're saying is that people understand that they can have multiple home screens (which are completely not static - they in fact all have apps of one kind or another running on them), but they could never grok workspaces. I find that hard to believe. Just look at various Android home screen UIs. Some of them even have pinch to zoom on any home screen, where you actually get all home screens visible at the same time and you pick one you want. In that representation they are spaces, for all intents and purposes (they are just not called spaces). Some phone web browsers are working the same way as well. So, extending this metaphor to the desktop is a no-brainer. Give users credit - vast majority of them already to this stuff every day. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bojan Smojver bo...@rexursive.com wrote: So, extending this metaphor to the desktop is a no-brainer. Give users credit - vast majority of them already to this stuff every day. I was sitting in a restaurant and overheard two middle aged women somewhere in their early 50s talking about their phones down to what kind of cpu they have, to all the features, the switching of home screen it was quite interesting and amusing since non-techie folks are now doing what a lot of us with tech backgrounds have been doing for quite some time. If something is compelling they will learn everything about it. Apple does a pretty good job with this. If the product is compelling people will figure it out. BTW - this season I've seen two blockbuster movies all with Linux in it. I'm amused that they were used for their techie look. The movies was Social Networking and Tron. More movies please, it makes hyping this stuff easier. sri ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
The basic function of workspaces in the current design is to represent separate tasks with the expectation; Having no time to skim through the design documents, knowing that a workspace is dedicated to a specific task is great. Please make it better. I am expecting that I can save all my workspaces and restore them and all the related tasks with it. It might be possible to have an option to save it in the cloud so that I can retrieve it elsewhere. Great work... -Allan E. Registos - Original Message - From: Owen Taylor otay...@redhat.com To: Bojan Smojver bo...@rexursive.com Cc: gnome-shell-list@gnome.org Sent: Tuesday, January 4, 2011 6:38:03 AM Subject: Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions On Tue, 2011-01-04 at 08:32 +1100, Bojan Smojver wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 15:37 -0500, Owen Taylor wrote: If you *don't* want your windows moved around when selecting them (you don't want that feature of the overview), then wouldn't you just click on them? Not sure what you mean by this. Take this as an example: 20 open windows across 6 workspaces. How am I meant to click the right one without seeing the workspaces? Or are you saying that there is a way to turn expose behaviour off in overview? GNOME Shell is designed with the expectation that users will have overlapping windows. It's not designed for spreading out windows non-overlapping among multiple workspaces. The basic function of workspaces in the current design is to represent separate tasks with the expectation; most switching will occur between windows within the same desktop. There are going to be improvements for switching between workspaces (see http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/), but current plans are to keep things a two-level thing - switch workspaces than switch windows. - Owen ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Tue, 2011-01-04 at 10:17 +1100, Bojan Smojver wrote: On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 23:06 +, Adam Williamson wrote: I'm not sure to what extent you can expect people to make this leap. So, what you're saying is that people understand that they can have multiple home screens (which are completely not static - they in fact all have apps of one kind or another running on them), but they could never grok workspaces. I find that hard to believe. These are always called 'widgets', and not 'apps'. The two are considered quite distinct. And you vastly overstate my argument. I phrased it, intentionally, very mildly; please do not presume to put the word 'never' in my mouth. Just look at various Android home screen UIs. Some of them even have pinch to zoom on any home screen, where you actually get all home screens visible at the same time and you pick one you want. In that representation they are spaces, for all intents and purposes (they are just not called spaces). Some phone web browsers are working the same way as well. That ignores the point that applications are not associated with particular home screens. So, extending this metaphor to the desktop is a no-brainer. Give users credit - vast majority of them already to this stuff every day. The vast majority of people do not use smartphones. However, I'm not a fan of the 'vast majority' line of argument in general, so let's leave it there. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Tue, 2011-01-04 at 02:17 +, Adam Williamson wrote: The vast majority of people do not use smartphones. Seriously? Come on, kids in primary school have iPod Touch and even iPhones these days. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Tue, 2011-01-04 at 06:13 +0100, Onyeibo Oku wrote: That does not represent a vast majority. Don't limit the word 'people' to one geographical location. It is estimated that by 2013 about 1.1 billion smartphones will be sold. If that's not majority enough for you, then I don't know what is. I'm not sure what the whole point of this not vast majority argument is. All I'm saying is that regular people, even children, have no trouble working multiple home screens. And they show it in large numbers. And yet, we are worried that Gnome users won't grok workspaces. Seriously? -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Sun, 2011-01-02 at 08:50 +1100, Bojan Smojver wrote: For expose, I'm sorry that you don't like, but before we remove the feature or make it optional, we need to understand why you feel it is wrong. The problem with expose is that it moves your windows around and resizes them, many times unnecessarily. When one uses workspaces, it is often not required to have windows that overlap each other. In other words, one sets the windows on each worspace so that they are fully visible. That's the point of having workspaces - you get much more screen real estate. The eye and the brain remember the size and the position of windows. With gnome-shell, one gets expose behaviour by default when in overview, so windows for which one already knows the position and size get moved around and resized, so one has to search for them again. This is not only unnecessary, but tedious and tiring. I agree. As I use to resize app windows myself(e.g., I need to read the content of an inactive(resized) app window while retaining the focus of the current app). The expose defeats this purpose when it is in effect. The resizing is totally unnecessary in my experience, I hope it can be turned on and off. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
Il giorno ven, 31/12/2010 alle 01.42 -0800, Nex6 ha scritto: On 12/29/2010 02:50 PM, Giovanni Campagna wrote: Il giorno mer, 29/12/2010 alle 14.17 -0800, Nex6 ha scritto: hi all, Current (2.91.4 / git master) gnome-shell experience is very different from the Fedora 14 packaged one (2.31.5). You should use jhbuild to get the latest version, follow instructions at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell#building as soon as I get a chance I will upgrade to the latest. You really should. Many of the issues you report have been fixed (or anyway changed) in later versions, so it's like we're talking about two different programs. While being different is a marketing point, as it marks the reason for switching to GNOME, gnome-shell is not different for the sake of beign different, every design decision (including the most discussed ones, and including those still under discussion) have been made for its merits. Moving in particular to the zooming effect exposed by the Activities button, this has been reported many times by various users, but it is explicitly part of the design, as the purpose of that mode is to give an overview (hence the technical name, Activities Overview) of active windows, applications, and tasks (in the future, 3.1, it will have contacts, desktop search, zeitgeist logging, etc.). Still under discussion is the behaviour wrt window management inside the workspace. Some proposals concentrated on gesture-based window management + shading of minimized windows (possibly shading to icon only), other instead wanted a gesture or button to emulate Alt-tab, or showing the favourite application list on the left of the workspace. while I, as a Systems Design Engineer fully understand the its by design reasoning and although I have not seen the latest builds the paradigm that Gnome-Shell brings does not necessary mean that its correct. in fact, the OSX influences are very apparent. and for the record I don't like them in OSX either... why should after I login by default getting to my first application is two clicks at least? (unless I create a desktop shortcut?) Or you set up gnome-session to restore your previous session, or set that application to autostart. It is even better than gnome-panel (mouse to Applications, click, mouse to the relevant section, wait to open, mouse to the application, click), in gnome-shell you just mouse to hot-corner, wait to open, mouse to the application in the favorite list, click. and the whole, copying OSXs application view (which I think is terrible in OSX) is likewise a bad idea. if it was combined with a category like view it would be fine but the whole OSX likeness is flawed. and is less useful then even OSX as I can turn off expose in osx. There is a category view in current gnome-shell (but see bug 638271). For expose, I'm sorry that you don't like, but before we remove the feature or make it optional, we need to understand why you feel it is wrong. while Gnome shell brings alot of good things that could be great, the workflow and use patterns seem very flawed. (at least with the build I have seen). if your going to try and be different the windows and OSX, at least offer productivity gains Well, both the developers and the designers, as well as some early testers, reported improvements in workflow and usability with gnome-shell, compared to gnome-panel (default layout) + metacity. So this claim must be substantiated. not costs ok, why not: make the activities a drop down menu/sidebar with no zooming, or better yet make it optional/move the zoom some where else. The main point of the Activities Overview is to show all the windows at the same time, so this does not make sense in the current design. flawed, if its the main view your interacting with. you can not add icons to the taskbar only the desktop. and using alt-tab is now broken as if I have 4 terminal windows open the alt tab on loads all of them does not flip thru them as single windows. I don't understand your first sentence. You can add icons to the app view, both in previous and current layout (assuming that is the thing you call taskbar). For alt-tab behaviour, that is still under discussion, and may change before final release. Try searching alt-tab in bugzilla and comment there. next: make it possible to add icons/shortcuts to the top menu bar. infact make it easy to do so like add a right click menu item under add to favorites, as add to top menu. (make it movable) Why clobbering the top menu bar, when adding a favourite is just as clean and fast? (I'm referring to the new overview layout here, 2.31.5 still has the old layout, please update to see what I mean) again its flawed, as it makes everything two clicks, why? and forces you into the expose like zooming which screws with your eyes and focus. Well, but launching an application is not something
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
For expose, I'm sorry that you don't like, but before we remove the feature or make it optional, we need to understand why you feel it is wrong. The problem with expose is that it moves your windows around and resizes them, many times unnecessarily. When one uses workspaces, it is often not required to have windows that overlap each other. In other words, one sets the windows on each worspace so that they are fully visible. That's the point of having workspaces - you get much more screen real estate. The eye and the brain remember the size and the position of windows. With gnome-shell, one gets expose behaviour by default when in overview, so windows for which one already knows the position and size get moved around and resized, so one has to search for them again. This is not only unnecessary, but tedious and tiring. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On 12/29/2010 02:50 PM, Giovanni Campagna wrote: Il giorno mer, 29/12/2010 alle 14.17 -0800, Nex6 ha scritto: hi all, First I would like to say great work on Gnome/Gnome-shell. I loaded Gnome-Shell on Fedora 14 and messed arround with it for awhile. I also, poked around the NET, and the archives of this list (just joined today). Current (2.91.4 / git master) gnome-shell experience is very different from the Fedora 14 packaged one (2.31.5). You should use jhbuild to get the latest version, follow instructions at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell#building as soon as I get a chance I will upgrade to the latest. But I sadly, I agree with those that think the use patterns/work-flows of Gnome-Shell is not right. I really like the control center and the lay-out under your user name. but the whole, activities, pop/zoom thing click click click. just does not work. it would force you to create shortcuts on the desktop. just to avoid that mess, the idea of a desktop environment is to help the users with their work-flow. I am not saying Gnome should copy OSX or windows. but, don't go off the deep end different just to be different from them. when flipping around the shell, the constant changing and zooming started to give me a headache. While being different is a marketing point, as it marks the reason for switching to GNOME, gnome-shell is not different for the sake of beign different, every design decision (including the most discussed ones, and including those still under discussion) have been made for its merits. Moving in particular to the zooming effect exposed by the Activities button, this has been reported many times by various users, but it is explicitly part of the design, as the purpose of that mode is to give an overview (hence the technical name, Activities Overview) of active windows, applications, and tasks (in the future, 3.1, it will have contacts, desktop search, zeitgeist logging, etc.). Still under discussion is the behaviour wrt window management inside the workspace. Some proposals concentrated on gesture-based window management + shading of minimized windows (possibly shading to icon only), other instead wanted a gesture or button to emulate Alt-tab, or showing the favourite application list on the left of the workspace. while I, as a Systems Design Engineer fully understand the its by design reasoning and although I have not seen the latest builds the paradigm that Gnome-Shell brings does not necessary mean that its correct. in fact, the OSX influences are very apparent. and for the record I don't like them in OSX either... why should after I login by default getting to my first application is two clicks at least? (unless I create a desktop shortcut?) and the whole, copying OSXs application view (which I think is terrible in OSX) is likewise a bad idea. if it was combined with a category like view it would be fine but the whole OSX likeness is flawed. and is less useful then even OSX as I can turn off expose in osx. while Gnome shell brings alot of good things that could be great, the workflow and use patterns seem very flawed. (at least with the build I have seen). if your going to try and be different the windows and OSX, at least offer productivity gains not costs ok, why not: make the activities a drop down menu/sidebar with no zooming, or better yet make it optional/move the zoom some where else. The main point of the Activities Overview is to show all the windows at the same time, so this does not make sense in the current design. flawed, if its the main view your interacting with. you can not add icons to the taskbar only the desktop. and using alt-tab is now broken as if I have 4 terminal windows open the alt tab on loads all of them does not flip thru them as single windows. next: make it possible to add icons/shortcuts to the top menu bar. infact make it easy to do so like add a right click menu item under add to favorites, as add to top menu. (make it movable) Why clobbering the top menu bar, when adding a favourite is just as clean and fast? (I'm referring to the new overview layout here, 2.31.5 still has the old layout, please update to see what I mean) again its flawed, as it makes everything two clicks, why? and forces you into the expose like zooming which screws with your eyes and focus. also in the same vain, add a, add to desktop item The desktop (as the icon view behind the windows) is going to die, either in 3.0 or 3.2. We should not add more features to it. wow.. yup true design productivity lets over design just because we can. ok, that's good for now as I explore Gnome Shell I will add more. Thanks for your time reporting, it is always useful getting feedback before gnome-shell is released. thanks Giovanni ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On 12/31/2010 01:42 AM, Nex6 wrote: On 12/29/2010 02:50 PM, Giovanni Campagna wrote: Il giorno mer, 29/12/2010 alle 14.17 -0800, Nex6 ha scritto: hi all, First I would like to say great work on Gnome/Gnome-shell. I loaded Gnome-Shell on Fedora 14 and messed arround with it for awhile. I also, poked around the NET, and the archives of this list (just joined today). Current (2.91.4 / git master) gnome-shell experience is very different from the Fedora 14 packaged one (2.31.5). You should use jhbuild to get the latest version, follow instructions at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell#building as soon as I get a chance I will upgrade to the latest. But I sadly, I agree with those that think the use patterns/work-flows of Gnome-Shell is not right. I really like the control center and the lay-out under your user name. but the whole, activities, pop/zoom thing click click click. just does not work. it would force you to create shortcuts on the desktop. just to avoid that mess, the idea of a desktop environment is to help the users with their work-flow. I am not saying Gnome should copy OSX or windows. but, don't go off the deep end different just to be different from them. when flipping around the shell, the constant changing and zooming started to give me a headache. While being different is a marketing point, as it marks the reason for switching to GNOME, gnome-shell is not different for the sake of beign different, every design decision (including the most discussed ones, and including those still under discussion) have been made for its merits. Moving in particular to the zooming effect exposed by the Activities button, this has been reported many times by various users, but it is explicitly part of the design, as the purpose of that mode is to give an overview (hence the technical name, Activities Overview) of active windows, applications, and tasks (in the future, 3.1, it will have contacts, desktop search, zeitgeist logging, etc.). Still under discussion is the behaviour wrt window management inside the workspace. Some proposals concentrated on gesture-based window management + shading of minimized windows (possibly shading to icon only), other instead wanted a gesture or button to emulate Alt-tab, or showing the favourite application list on the left of the workspace. while I, as a Systems Design Engineer fully understand the its by design reasoning and although I have not seen the latest builds the paradigm that Gnome-Shell brings does not necessary mean that its correct. in fact, the OSX influences are very apparent. and for the record I don't like them in OSX either... why should after I login by default getting to my first application is two clicks at least? (unless I create a desktop shortcut?) and the whole, copying OSXs application view (which I think is terrible in OSX) is likewise a bad idea. if it was combined with a category like view it would be fine but the whole OSX likeness is flawed. and is less useful then even OSX as I can turn off expose in osx. while Gnome shell brings alot of good things that could be great, the workflow and use patterns seem very flawed. (at least with the build I have seen). if your going to try and be different the windows and OSX, at least offer productivity gains not costs ok, why not: make the activities a drop down menu/sidebar with no zooming, or better yet make it optional/move the zoom some where else. The main point of the Activities Overview is to show all the windows at the same time, so this does not make sense in the current design. flawed, if its the main view your interacting with. you can not add icons to the taskbar only the desktop. and using alt-tab is now broken as if I have 4 terminal windows open the alt tab on loads all of them does not flip thru them as single windows. next: make it possible to add icons/shortcuts to the top menu bar. infact make it easy to do so like add a right click menu item under add to favorites, as add to top menu. (make it movable) Why clobbering the top menu bar, when adding a favourite is just as clean and fast? (I'm referring to the new overview layout here, 2.31.5 still has the old layout, please update to see what I mean) again its flawed, as it makes everything two clicks, why? and forces you into the expose like zooming which screws with your eyes and focus. also in the same vain, add a, add to desktop item The desktop (as the icon view behind the windows) is going to die, either in 3.0 or 3.2. We should not add more features to it. wow.. yup true design productivity lets over design just because we can. id like to clarify this, I was not intending to be harsh or rude. but as an Engineer I see alot of stuff people do just because its cool not because it was best for the user. I guess I am colored by some of the bad stuff I see (and i see alot). so please take it with a grain of salt. ok, that's good for now as I explore Gnome Shell I
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
Il giorno gio, 30/12/2010 alle 12.16 +1100, Bojan Smojver ha scritto: On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 23:50 +0100, Giovanni Campagna wrote: Current (2.91.4 / git master) gnome-shell experience is very different from the Fedora 14 packaged one (2.31.5). Just one comment here regarding switching workspaces using mouse only. Consider: 1. Travel to top left corner. 2. Travel all the way to the middle bottom. 3. Pick workspace you want. 4. Click on the window you want. This is currently being addressed in the design, working code will come with time. Here is a suggestion: In overview mode, just under Activities button, above favourites bar and to the left of Applications/Windows menu, there is enough space for a scaled down, pan enabled workspace (one workspace high) grid, showing all window positions the way they are. It would really help with quick workspace switching if we had it there. I assume from your later mail that you already have seen the latest mockups in gnome-shell-design. So why do you think that the workspace grid on the top left is better than the vertical one on the right? PS. If number of workspaces is too large to fit in this scaled down grid, we can show left/right arrow on the vertical edges of this grid, which would pan the grid on mouseover. Writing workspace number as watermark on each of the workspaces would also be helpful. If we pan, we lose the point of the workspace grid, which is seeing all workspaces at the same time. Giovanni ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
I assume from your later mail that you already have seen the latest mockups in gnome-shell-design. So why do you think that the workspace grid on the top left is better than the vertical one on the right? Because it's closer to Activities button. No need to travel across the screen to change workspaces. If we pan, we lose the point of the workspace grid, which is seeing all workspaces at the same time. If you have, say, 20 workspaces, there is no way to fit them all there at once properly (hence the removal of the original grid system). So, you pan left/right to see them all (if so many is what you want) - all without clicking, of course. Most users won't need that, because 4, 6 or 8 worspaces will fit easily. It's really like iPhone/iPad screens, except you would have visibility of more than one at a time in the worspaces bar up the top. Think of it as workspace switcher on steroids. I'm guessing app favourites should behave the same. Also, there should be a way to change workspace without selecting a particular window on that workspace. Maybe a double click or something. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
Il giorno mer, 29/12/2010 alle 14.17 -0800, Nex6 ha scritto: hi all, First I would like to say great work on Gnome/Gnome-shell. I loaded Gnome-Shell on Fedora 14 and messed arround with it for awhile. I also, poked around the NET, and the archives of this list (just joined today). Current (2.91.4 / git master) gnome-shell experience is very different from the Fedora 14 packaged one (2.31.5). You should use jhbuild to get the latest version, follow instructions at http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell#building But I sadly, I agree with those that think the use patterns/work-flows of Gnome-Shell is not right. I really like the control center and the lay-out under your user name. but the whole, activities, pop/zoom thing click click click. just does not work. it would force you to create shortcuts on the desktop. just to avoid that mess, the idea of a desktop environment is to help the users with their work-flow. I am not saying Gnome should copy OSX or windows. but, don't go off the deep end different just to be different from them. when flipping around the shell, the constant changing and zooming started to give me a headache. While being different is a marketing point, as it marks the reason for switching to GNOME, gnome-shell is not different for the sake of beign different, every design decision (including the most discussed ones, and including those still under discussion) have been made for its merits. Moving in particular to the zooming effect exposed by the Activities button, this has been reported many times by various users, but it is explicitly part of the design, as the purpose of that mode is to give an overview (hence the technical name, Activities Overview) of active windows, applications, and tasks (in the future, 3.1, it will have contacts, desktop search, zeitgeist logging, etc.). Still under discussion is the behaviour wrt window management inside the workspace. Some proposals concentrated on gesture-based window management + shading of minimized windows (possibly shading to icon only), other instead wanted a gesture or button to emulate Alt-tab, or showing the favourite application list on the left of the workspace. ok, why not: make the activities a drop down menu/sidebar with no zooming, or better yet make it optional/move the zoom some where else. The main point of the Activities Overview is to show all the windows at the same time, so this does not make sense in the current design. next: make it possible to add icons/shortcuts to the top menu bar. infact make it easy to do so like add a right click menu item under add to favorites, as add to top menu. (make it movable) Why clobbering the top menu bar, when adding a favourite is just as clean and fast? (I'm referring to the new overview layout here, 2.31.5 still has the old layout, please update to see what I mean) also in the same vain, add a, add to desktop item The desktop (as the icon view behind the windows) is going to die, either in 3.0 or 3.2. We should not add more features to it. ok, that's good for now as I explore Gnome Shell I will add more. Thanks for your time reporting, it is always useful getting feedback before gnome-shell is released. Giovanni ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Wed, 2010-12-29 at 23:50 +0100, Giovanni Campagna wrote: Current (2.91.4 / git master) gnome-shell experience is very different from the Fedora 14 packaged one (2.31.5). Just one comment here regarding switching workspaces using mouse only. Consider: 1. Travel to top left corner. 2. Travel all the way to the middle bottom. 3. Pick workspace you want. 4. Click on the window you want. Here is a suggestion: In overview mode, just under Activities button, above favourites bar and to the left of Applications/Windows menu, there is enough space for a scaled down, pan enabled workspace (one workspace high) grid, showing all window positions the way they are. It would really help with quick workspace switching if we had it there. PS. If number of workspaces is too large to fit in this scaled down grid, we can show left/right arrow on the vertical edges of this grid, which would pan the grid on mouseover. Writing workspace number as watermark on each of the workspaces would also be helpful. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Thu, 2010-12-30 at 12:16 +1100, Bojan Smojver wrote: Just one comment here Ah, one more thing. I noticed that my pidgin and krb5-auth-dialog icons have gone to the bottom right corner for some reason. Shouldn't we group things in one place so that users don't have to travel to two different locations? After all, network manager, volume etc. are all in the top right location already. -- Bojan ___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
Re: Gnome-Shell - questions and opinions
On Thu, 2010-12-30 at 12:16 +1100, Bojan Smojver wrote: It would really help with quick workspace switching if we had it there. Maybe even something like this (copied original mockup from jimmac). Mouse over the down arrow and you get apps menu superimposed over windows. Click something on the superimposed apps menu to get out or get out of the superimposed area to get rid of it (i.e. back to managing windows). Etc. PS. Obviously, not a graphics guy, so ignore that bit. -- Bojan attachment: gnome-shell.jpg___ gnome-shell-list mailing list gnome-shell-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
