Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread zuperkoleoptera
On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 13:38 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 12:23 PM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 11:58 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM,
> > > > > > zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > which by the way it
> > > > > > > does not use the default security fraction which is
> > > > > > > 1/
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > 1/.   
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> > > > > > fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated
> > > > > > price
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit
> > > > > > integers.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is
> > > > > rounded
> > > > > to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in
> > > > > the
> > > > > balancing logic?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > John Ralls
> > > > > 
> > > > Yes you are right, the account created by the trading
> > > > subsystem,
> > > > Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security
> > > > in
> > > > the
> > > > system not in eur which is a currency. 
> > > > Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the
> > > > "smallest
> > > > fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
> > > > But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect
> > > > the
> > > > actual value of the account, it's just visual.   
> > > 
> > > No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing
> > > because .0012 != .00115652.
> > > 
> > > As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen
> > > to
> > > all cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that
> > > you
> > > touched?
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > John Ralls
> > > 
> > > 
> > To all cross-commodity transactions, I haven't touched - balanced
> > any
> > transaction yet.
> > I turned on trading accounts just a few days a go and still trying
> > to
> > evaluate my situation, whether I will keep the feature on or not. 
> 
> Well, you've touched at least the one from the screenshot. You can't
> get that dialog box unless you've opened the transaction for editing.
> 
> If you open the register for Trading:BTC-EUR are there lots of
> transactions listed?
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
Sorry did not understand that by touching you meant click inside. 
Yes I have touched several transactions. No there are not lots in
Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR  

Another issue that I just realized and is related to the functionality
of trading accounts, but maybe not the one that we are discussing here,
is the security/currency of the top level placeholder account Trading.
Shouldn't that be set in my base currency EUR? Strangely enough in my
case it's set in VOW which is a security I trade.   


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Re: [GNC] Tax deferred account transfers suggestion

2021-04-02 Thread John Ralls



> On Apr 2, 2021, at 1:02 PM, Michael or Penny Novack 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 4/2/2021 2:44 PM, David G. Pickett via gnucash-user wrote:
>> It'd be nice if the transfers from tax deferred accounts (401k, IRA) to not 
>> tax deferred showed as taxable income on the tax report.  Reverse transfers 
>> might also be listed as tax deductions.
> 
> It would help you to understand the issues if you tried to record this 
> transaction without gnucash (do it the old fashioned way, on paper).
> 
> This is not the only "interesting" situation involving taxable income. In 
> this case, money WAS being transferred, debit some bank account, credit the 
> 401k account. But take an example where you received NOTHING tangible but 
> were informed you had some taxable income. You need an example?
> 
> As an employee benefit, an employer is allowed to pay the premiums on a life 
> insurance policy on the employee's life, the employee getting to choose the 
> beneficiary. Generally the employer makes this benefit "one year's salary" of 
> life insurance. By US tax code, this is not considered taxable income to the 
> employee up to $50,000 of insurance coverage. But suppose that employee made 
> $60,000 per year so the insurance coverage was for that amount. The premium 
> on $10,000 of that (the amount over $50,000) would taxable income to the 
> employee.
> 
> << this is really the same problem -- the issue is, what is the debit side of 
> that credit >>
> 

If there are any non-USA-citizens reading you can stop now, this is all about 
US tax and retirement law.

Michael,

I thought you were old enough to be experiencing this directly! ;-)

With so-called traditional (i.e. non-Roth) IRAs and most 401K plans once you 
attain age 65 you may begin withdrawing and once you reach 72 you *must* begin 
withdrawing. In most cases the contributions and in all cases the gains and 
earnings in the retirement account were not taxed, so the withdrawals are taxed 
as part of ordinary income. No capital gains.

As David T. observes from an accounting standpoint there's no income account 
involved, you're transferring from the IRA/401K account to your regular 
bank/brokerage account. However, I'd think it possible for the Tax Report 
Options to tag the account and notice credits to it. Whether and how that might 
be wired into the TXF format I have no idea, I don't use the TXF report.

Regards,
John Ralls



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Re: [GNC] Tax deferred account transfers suggestion

2021-04-02 Thread D. via gnucash-user
In my experience, the issue is that money diverted to a retirement vehicle is 
registered as (some form of) income at the time of initial receipt, and 
diverted into the tax preferred asset account, so as to track those funds. When 
pay out from the retirement account occurs, however, the retiree is expected to 
report this as income-- but in the books, it's a transfer between asset 
accounts, which aren't categorized as income anywhere. Michael's response on 
this thread left me still wondering what the proper way to handle this might 
be, as the only pen and paper accounting I've done was a personal check book 
back in the 1980s.

Yet Another David, This Time With A T.




 Original Message 
From: David Carlson 
Sent: Fri Apr 02 14:53:20 EDT 2021
To: "David G. Pickett" 
Cc: "gnucash-user@gnucash.org" 
Subject: Re: [GNC] Tax deferred account transfers suggestion

I am not able to confirm right now but IIRC it is already possible to
assign transfers from tax advantaged accounts as well as other accounts
that trigger 1099s in the US to the respective forms in the tax report.

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 1:45 PM David G. Pickett via gnucash-user <
gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote:

> It'd be nice if the transfers from tax deferred accounts (401k, IRA) to
> not tax deferred showed as taxable income on the tax report.  Reverse
> transfers might also be listed as tax deductions.
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-- 
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread John Ralls



> On Apr 2, 2021, at 12:23 PM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 11:58 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
 
 
> On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls 
> wrote:
> 
> On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> which by the way it
>> does not use the default security fraction which is
>> 1/
>> but
>> 1/.   
> 
> The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price
> is
> as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit
> integers.
 
 Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is
 rounded
 to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
 balancing logic?
 
 Regards,
 John Ralls
 
>>> Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
>>> Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in
>>> the
>>> system not in eur which is a currency. 
>>> Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
>>> fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
>>> But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
>>> actual value of the account, it's just visual.   
>> 
>> No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing
>> because .0012 != .00115652.
>> 
>> As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen to
>> all cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that you
>> touched?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> 
>> 
> To all cross-commodity transactions, I haven't touched - balanced any
> transaction yet.
> I turned on trading accounts just a few days a go and still trying to
> evaluate my situation, whether I will keep the feature on or not. 

Well, you've touched at least the one from the screenshot. You can't get that 
dialog box unless you've opened the transaction for editing.

If you open the register for Trading:BTC-EUR are there lots of transactions 
listed?

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC] Tax deferred account transfers suggestion

2021-04-02 Thread Michael or Penny Novack

On 4/2/2021 2:44 PM, David G. Pickett via gnucash-user wrote:

It'd be nice if the transfers from tax deferred accounts (401k, IRA) to not tax 
deferred showed as taxable income on the tax report.  Reverse transfers might 
also be listed as tax deductions.


It would help you to understand the issues if you tried to record this 
transaction without gnucash (do it the old fashioned way, on paper).


This is not the only "interesting" situation involving taxable income. 
In this case, money WAS being transferred, debit some bank account, 
credit the 401k account. But take an example where you received NOTHING 
tangible but were informed you had some taxable income. You need an example?


As an employee benefit, an employer is allowed to pay the premiums on a 
life insurance policy on the employee's life, the employee getting to 
choose the beneficiary. Generally the employer makes this benefit "one 
year's salary" of life insurance. By US tax code, this is not considered 
taxable income to the employee up to $50,000 of insurance coverage. But 
suppose that employee made $60,000 per year so the insurance coverage 
was for that amount. The premium on $10,000 of that (the amount over 
$50,000) would taxable income to the employee.


<< this is really the same problem -- the issue is, what is the debit 
side of that credit >>



Michael D Novack



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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread zuperkoleoptera
On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 11:58 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > which by the way it
> > > > > does not use the default security fraction which is
> > > > > 1/
> > > > > but
> > > > > 1/.   
> > > > 
> > > > The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> > > > fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price
> > > > is
> > > > as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit
> > > > integers.
> > > 
> > > Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is
> > > rounded
> > > to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
> > > balancing logic?
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > John Ralls
> > > 
> > Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
> > Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in
> > the
> > system not in eur which is a currency. 
> > Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
> > fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
> > But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
> > actual value of the account, it's just visual.   
> 
> No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing
> because .0012 != .00115652.
> 
> As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen to
> all cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that you
> touched?
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
> 
To all cross-commodity transactions, I haven't touched - balanced any
transaction yet.
I turned on trading accounts just a few days a go and still trying to
evaluate my situation, whether I will keep the feature on or not.   




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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread John Ralls



> On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 which by the way it
 does not use the default security fraction which is 1/
 but
 1/.   
>>> 
>>> The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
>>> fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price is
>>> as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit integers.
>> 
>> Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is rounded
>> to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
>> balancing logic?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> 
> Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
> Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in the
> system not in eur which is a currency. 
> Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
> fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
> But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
> actual value of the account, it's just visual.   

No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing because .0012 != 
.00115652.

As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen to all 
cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that you touched?

Regards,
John Ralls


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Re: [GNC] Tax deferred account transfers suggestion

2021-04-02 Thread David Carlson
I am not able to confirm right now but IIRC it is already possible to
assign transfers from tax advantaged accounts as well as other accounts
that trigger 1099s in the US to the respective forms in the tax report.

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 1:45 PM David G. Pickett via gnucash-user <
gnucash-user@gnucash.org> wrote:

> It'd be nice if the transfers from tax deferred accounts (401k, IRA) to
> not tax deferred showed as taxable income on the tax report.  Reverse
> transfers might also be listed as tax deductions.
> ___
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-- 
David Carlson
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[GNC] Tax deferred account transfers suggestion

2021-04-02 Thread David G. Pickett via gnucash-user
It'd be nice if the transfers from tax deferred accounts (401k, IRA) to not tax 
deferred showed as taxable income on the tax report.  Reverse transfers might 
also be listed as tax deductions.
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread zuperkoleoptera
On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls  wrote:
> > 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > which by the way it
> > > does not use the default security fraction which is 1/
> > > but
> > > 1/.   
> > 
> > The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> > fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price is
> > as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit integers.
> 
> Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is rounded
> to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
> balancing logic?
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in the
system not in eur which is a currency. 
Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
actual value of the account, it's just visual.   

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread John Ralls



> On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls  wrote:
> 
> On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> which by the way it
>> does not use the default security fraction which is 1/ but
>> 1/.   
> 
> The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's fraction. That's 
> for display only, the actual calculated price is as exact a fraction as can 
> be represented with two 64-bit integers.

Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is rounded to 1/1000. 
Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the balancing logic?

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread John Ralls
On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> which by the way it
> does not use the default security fraction which is 1/ but
> 1/.   

The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's fraction. That's 
for display only, the actual calculated price is as exact a fraction as can be 
represented with two 64-bit integers.

Regards,
John Ralls



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[GNC] GnuCash, UK accounts, iXBRL

2021-04-02 Thread Mark
For anyone interested, here's a project to create UK accounts from GnuCash
accounts.  Can create HTML documents with iXBRL tags which meet the
Companies House / HMRC taxonomies.

https://github.com/cybermaggedon/gnucash-uk-reports

All in Python, uses the GnuCash Python API.  Sample accounts validate with
Arelle, and also can be loaded into the Workiva viewer.  Maybe output would
work with HMRC submission, haven't taken it that far yet.

Some sample output here:
https://github.com/cybermaggedon/gnucash-uk-reports/blob/master/docs/screenshots.md

Done this for my own personal interest, but if anyone wants assistance or
to share ideas for particular features, happy to discuss.

Share and enjoy,

Mark.
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread zuperkoleoptera
I have been using lots and scrubing my investment accounts to track
realized gains. But since I have turned on trading accounts I have not
scrubbed any account. 

I am attaching an example of 2 splits created after turning on trading
accounts. As a side-note some of the account names are in Greek...
This is a past purchase of bitcoin using euros. So the system has
created (1) a split to Trading:CURRENCY:EUR for 39.90 and (2) a split
in Trasing:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR fro 0.0011 BTC, which by the way it
does not use the default security fraction which is 1/ but
1/.   

Furthermore the system recognises that the transaction is not balanced
and each time I try to change the splits it pops up the window that I
am attaching you in the 2nd file. 

To my understanding the system has created a bunch of splits in all my
transactions involved with my crypto portfolio that I need to go and
manualy rebalance.   

Did any of the above helped to you to understand the situation better?

On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 03:32 -0400, Mike Alexander wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2021, at 11:21, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > The problem I am facing is the following, after activating trading
> > accounts the system created the hierarchy for all the trading 
> > accounts,
> > but also created a bunch of splits in already recorded
> > transactions. 
> > So
> > from the beginning the trading:currency:EUR account has a balance
> > of
> > almost 2.300 eur and includes all my transactions related to my
> > crypto
> > portfolio.
> 
> Merely turning on trading accounts shouldn't create any new splits in
> existing transactions.  I suspect you must have used one or more of
> the 
> scrub commands to create them.
> 
> I would have to have more details to see what is going on, but if you
> use one ore more commodities for crypto and have transactions that
> buy 
> or sell those commodities in Euros, then it is normal for trading 
> account splits to be created for those transactions, but only when
> the 
> transaction is edited or scrubbed.
> 
> Mike

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

2021-04-02 Thread Mike Alexander

On 28 Mar 2021, at 11:21, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:


The problem I am facing is the following, after activating trading
accounts the system created the hierarchy for all the trading 
accounts,
but also created a bunch of splits in already recorded transactions. 
So

from the beginning the trading:currency:EUR account has a balance of
almost 2.300 eur and includes all my transactions related to my crypto
portfolio.


Merely turning on trading accounts shouldn't create any new splits in 
existing transactions.  I suspect you must have used one or more of the 
scrub commands to create them.


I would have to have more details to see what is going on, but if you 
use one ore more commodities for crypto and have transactions that buy 
or sell those commodities in Euros, then it is normal for trading 
account splits to be created for those transactions, but only when the 
transaction is edited or scrubbed.


Mike
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Re: [GNC] Duplicate Trading Account Created in V4.5

2021-04-02 Thread Mike Alexander

On 29 Mar 2021, at 22:53, Thomas Chen wrote:

Just upgraded GNC to V4.5 from V4.4 yesterday, and it’s running in a 
Mac.
Today when I added a transaction for a stock purchase, a duplicate 
Trading Account was created automatically by GNC.

Two Trading Accounts exist now.


This is just a guess, but I'll bet this is related to this change:

	• Bug 798093 - Changing the symbol/abbreviation of a security after 
the trading account was created breaks GnuCash.
Makes it possible for the user to rename trading accounts or securities 
independent of each other.


Mike
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