Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[john]

Maybe, because it's all we've got for differentiating two securities with the 
same symbol.

Regards,
John Ralls


> On Apr 22, 2023, at 1:20 AM, Fred Tydeman  wrote:
> 
> Is there a relationship between Security Namespaces and Trading accounts?
> If I change which Namespace a security is in, should that affect a Trading 
> account?
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:29 PM john  > wrote:
>> No, the naming scheme is hard-coded. Ralf Habacker made a start at removing 
>> name dependencies but got it working only for opening balance accounts.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> 
>> > On Apr 21, 2023, at 9:30 AM, Fred Tydeman > > > wrote:
>> > 
>> > Can Trading accounts be moved around?
>> > That is, given a new parent.
>> > ___
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[Fred Tydeman]

Is there a relationship between Security Namespaces and Trading accounts?
If I change which Namespace a security is in, should that affect a Trading
account?


On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:29 PM john  wrote:

> No, the naming scheme is hard-coded. Ralf Habacker made a start at
> removing name dependencies but got it working only for opening balance
> accounts.
>
> Regards,
> John Ralls
>
> > On Apr 21, 2023, at 9:30 AM, Fred Tydeman 
> wrote:
> >
> > Can Trading accounts be moved around?
> > That is, given a new parent.
> > ___
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[john]

No, the naming scheme is hard-coded. Ralf Habacker made a start at removing 
name dependencies but got it working only for opening balance accounts.

Regards,
John Ralls

> On Apr 21, 2023, at 9:30 AM, Fred Tydeman  wrote:
> 
> Can Trading accounts be moved around?
> That is, given a new parent.
> ___
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[GNC] Trading accounts

[Fred Tydeman]

Can Trading accounts be moved around?
That is, given a new parent.
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[Mike Alexander]

This is one side of the story.  For another view of things you might 
take a look at 
https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial.html.  You 
could also look at 
https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/gnucash.html which is 
outdated but still might be useful.


If you want to fix things by adding trading account splits where needed 
you could use the "Check and Repair" commands in the Actions menu.  If 
Trading Accounts are turned on these commands should add the splits 
where required.  I would certainly make a backup copy before trying 
this.


Mike

On 26 Jul 2022, at 20:39, David Carlson wrote:


I forgot to address fixing the mess.

I think there are two ways to fix it.  The easiest is to restore your 
last

backup from before turning on TA's.
The other, iirc, is to manually delete all those TA's.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 7:24 PM  wrote:


Fred,

Not early in the guide, but in the section dealing with multiple 
currencies

https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v4/C/gnucash-guide/currency_trading_accts.html
and
discussed on the wiki 
(https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Trading_Accounts).


I don't think anyone has yet written anything about any application 
to

trading
stocks and I don't think they are intended to be applied there.

It is recommended to read the guide and help manual fully  before 
using

GnuCash.
I didn't, like many other users, but I did have a general accounting
background
coming in. You will find a lot of discussion in the mailing list 
archives

re
stock trading and unrealized gains and losses..

If they were mentioned earlier it is likely they would confuse new 
users

with
limited experience of double entry accounting and accounting 
practice. It

is a
compromise to get new users in the door.

Trading counts are about providing information in the accounts for
unrealized
gains and losses involving currency transactions.

It is not normal accounting practice to recognize unrealized gains or
losses in
the books as income/expenses and the circumstances under which they 
may be
recognized in some jurisdictions are likely to be highly variable. 
They

are not
normally taxable until the gains are actually realized in the 
majority of

jurisdictions. That is why they aren't a default option.

I wouldn't think there is any need to redo past transactions unless 
the

information re unrealized gains and losses through currency exchange
transactions is necessary for some specific reporting process.

David Cousens

On Tue, 2022-07-26 at 18:46 -0400, Fred Tydeman wrote:
Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data 
into

GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.

Besides
normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks 
and

many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe

that
my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and 
other

assets whose value varies) were done wrong.

Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real 
Estate.


Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?

Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the 
Tutorial

early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.




What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by 
default?




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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[David T. via gnucash-user]

Geoff, 

Changing values of reconciled transactions without notice renders a book 
completely unreliable for any accounting purpose. If that's not evil, what is? 

David T.

On July 27, 2022 2:46:34 PM GMT+03:00, Geoff  wrote:
>Lots.
>
>(And they aren't really evil, just wilful).
>
>;--))
>
>Geoff
>=
>
>On 27/07/2022 8:36 pm, David Carlson wrote:
>> This has confused me.  Is the recent thread titled "
>> [GNC] Evil Lots Behavior" about lots or trading accounts?
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 12:10 AM David T.  wrote:
>> 
>>> David C.
>>> 
>>> Trading accounts are not the same as lots. Different concept, different
>>> code. Just a for instance: trading accounts are turned on by book; lots can
>>> be enabled by account.
>>> 
>>> David T.
>>> 
>>> On July 27, 2022 3:33:37 AM GMT+03:00, David Carlson <
>>> david.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
 
 I believe that you are witnessing first hand why trading accounts are not
 enabled by default,  i.e. they create a royal mess in your trading history.
 
 You might want to re-read the recent thread about evil trading accounts.
   They may work ok for some users who's documentation goals align with the
 design parameters of TA's.
 
 Other users will prefer to continue either manually tracking lots in
 external spreadsheets or trusting their brokers back rooms to do it for
 them.
 
 Oh, I am neither a developer nor an accountant, just a long term user.
 
 On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:47 PM Fred Tydeman  wrote:
 
   Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
>   GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  
> Besides
>   normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
>   many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
>   accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
>   https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe 
> that
>   my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
>   assets whose value varies) were done wrong.
> 
>   Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
>   Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
>   Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
>   varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.
> 
>   Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?
> 
>   Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
>   early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.
> 
>   What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
> --
>   gnucash-user mailing list
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>   https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[David T. via gnucash-user]

The thread I started, with the title "Evil Lots Behavior" was about the Gnucash 
*Lots* feature, which is designed to "assist" users in the management of 
individual lots of stock and mutual fund shares. (For the record, the lots 
feature will change reconciled gains transactions without notification, 
something I believe to be a dangerous bug...)

You suggested that the OP consult that thread. I'm saying it's not the same 
problem, and the ELB thread has nothing to do with trading accounts. 

David T. 

On July 27, 2022 2:46:34 PM GMT+03:00, Geoff  wrote:
>Lots.
>
>(And they aren't really evil, just wilful).
>
>;--))
>
>Geoff
>=
>
>On 27/07/2022 8:36 pm, David Carlson wrote:
>> This has confused me.  Is the recent thread titled "
>> [GNC] Evil Lots Behavior" about lots or trading accounts?
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 12:10 AM David T.  wrote:
>> 
>>> David C.
>>> 
>>> Trading accounts are not the same as lots. Different concept, different
>>> code. Just a for instance: trading accounts are turned on by book; lots can
>>> be enabled by account.
>>> 
>>> David T.
>>> 
>>> On July 27, 2022 3:33:37 AM GMT+03:00, David Carlson <
>>> david.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
 
 I believe that you are witnessing first hand why trading accounts are not
 enabled by default,  i.e. they create a royal mess in your trading history.
 
 You might want to re-read the recent thread about evil trading accounts.
   They may work ok for some users who's documentation goals align with the
 design parameters of TA's.
 
 Other users will prefer to continue either manually tracking lots in
 external spreadsheets or trusting their brokers back rooms to do it for
 them.
 
 Oh, I am neither a developer nor an accountant, just a long term user.
 
 On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:47 PM Fred Tydeman  wrote:
 
   Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
>   GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  
> Besides
>   normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
>   many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
>   accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
>   https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe 
> that
>   my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
>   assets whose value varies) were done wrong.
> 
>   Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
>   Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
>   Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
>   varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.
> 
>   Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?
> 
>   Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
>   early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.
> 
>   What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
> --
>   gnucash-user mailing list
>   gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>   To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>   https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[Geoff]

Lots.

(And they aren't really evil, just wilful).

;--))

Geoff
=

On 27/07/2022 8:36 pm, David Carlson wrote:

This has confused me.  Is the recent thread titled "
[GNC] Evil Lots Behavior" about lots or trading accounts?

On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 12:10 AM David T.  wrote:


David C.

Trading accounts are not the same as lots. Different concept, different
code. Just a for instance: trading accounts are turned on by book; lots can
be enabled by account.

David T.

On July 27, 2022 3:33:37 AM GMT+03:00, David Carlson <
david.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:


I believe that you are witnessing first hand why trading accounts are not
enabled by default,  i.e. they create a royal mess in your trading history.

You might want to re-read the recent thread about evil trading accounts.
  They may work ok for some users who's documentation goals align with the
design parameters of TA's.

Other users will prefer to continue either manually tracking lots in
external spreadsheets or trusting their brokers back rooms to do it for
them.

Oh, I am neither a developer nor an accountant, just a long term user.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:47 PM Fred Tydeman  wrote:

  Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into

  GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  Besides
  normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
  many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
  accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
  https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe that
  my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
  assets whose value varies) were done wrong.

  Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
  Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
  Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
  varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.

  Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?

  Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
  early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.

  What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
--
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[David Carlson]

This has confused me.  Is the recent thread titled "
[GNC] Evil Lots Behavior" about lots or trading accounts?

On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 12:10 AM David T.  wrote:

> David C.
>
> Trading accounts are not the same as lots. Different concept, different
> code. Just a for instance: trading accounts are turned on by book; lots can
> be enabled by account.
>
> David T.
>
> On July 27, 2022 3:33:37 AM GMT+03:00, David Carlson <
> david.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I believe that you are witnessing first hand why trading accounts are not
>> enabled by default,  i.e. they create a royal mess in your trading history.
>>
>> You might want to re-read the recent thread about evil trading accounts.
>>  They may work ok for some users who's documentation goals align with the
>> design parameters of TA's.
>>
>> Other users will prefer to continue either manually tracking lots in
>> external spreadsheets or trusting their brokers back rooms to do it for
>> them.
>>
>> Oh, I am neither a developer nor an accountant, just a long term user.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:47 PM Fred Tydeman  wrote:
>>
>>  Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
>>>  GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  Besides
>>>  normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
>>>  many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
>>>  accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
>>>  https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe that
>>>  my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
>>>  assets whose value varies) were done wrong.
>>>
>>>  Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
>>>  Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
>>>  Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
>>>  varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.
>>>
>>>  Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?
>>>
>>>  Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
>>>  early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.
>>>
>>>  What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
>>> --
>>>  gnucash-user mailing list
>>>  gnucash-user@gnucash.org
>>>  To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe:
>>>  https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user
>>>  If you are using Nabble or Gmane, please see
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>>>
>>> --
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-- 
David Carlson
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[David T. via gnucash-user]

David C.

Trading accounts are not the same as lots. Different concept, different code. 
Just a for instance: trading accounts are turned on by book; lots can be 
enabled by account. 

David T. 

On July 27, 2022 3:33:37 AM GMT+03:00, David Carlson 
 wrote:
>I believe that you are witnessing first hand why trading accounts are not
>enabled by default,  i.e. they create a royal mess in your trading history.
>
>You might want to re-read the recent thread about evil trading accounts.
> They may work ok for some users who's documentation goals align with the
>design parameters of TA's.
>
>Other users will prefer to continue either manually tracking lots in
>external spreadsheets or trusting their brokers back rooms to do it for
>them.
>
>Oh, I am neither a developer nor an accountant, just a long term user.
>
>On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:47 PM Fred Tydeman  wrote:
>
>> Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
>> GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  Besides
>> normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
>> many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
>> accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
>> https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe that
>> my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
>> assets whose value varies) were done wrong.
>>
>> Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
>> Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
>> Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
>> varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.
>>
>> Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?
>>
>> Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
>> early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.
>>
>> What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
>> ___
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[David Carlson]

I forgot to address fixing the mess.

I think there are two ways to fix it.  The easiest is to restore your last
backup from before turning on TA's.
The other, iirc, is to manually delete all those TA's.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 7:24 PM  wrote:

> Fred,
>
> Not early in the guide, but in the section dealing with multiple currencies
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v4/C/gnucash-guide/currency_trading_accts.html
> and
> discussed on the wiki (https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Trading_Accounts).
>
> I don't think anyone has yet written anything about any application to
> trading
> stocks and I don't think they are intended to be applied there.
>
> It is recommended to read the guide and help manual fully  before using
> GnuCash.
> I didn't, like many other users, but I did have a general accounting
> background
> coming in. You will find a lot of discussion in the mailing list archives
> re
> stock trading and unrealized gains and losses..
>
> If they were mentioned earlier it is likely they would confuse new users
> with
> limited experience of double entry accounting and accounting practice. It
> is a
> compromise to get new users in the door.
>
> Trading counts are about providing information in the accounts for
> unrealized
> gains and losses involving currency transactions.
>
> It is not normal accounting practice to recognize unrealized gains or
> losses in
> the books as income/expenses and the circumstances under which they may be
> recognized in some jurisdictions are likely to be highly variable. They
> are not
> normally taxable until the gains are actually realized in the majority of
> jurisdictions. That is why they aren't a default option.
>
> I wouldn't think there is any need to redo past transactions unless the
> information re unrealized gains and losses through currency exchange
> transactions is necessary for some specific reporting process.
>
> David Cousens
>
> On Tue, 2022-07-26 at 18:46 -0400, Fred Tydeman wrote:
> > Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
> > GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.
> Besides
> > normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
> > many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
> > accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
> > https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe
> that
> > my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
> > assets whose value varies) were done wrong.
> >
> > Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
> > Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
> > Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
> > varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.
> >
> > Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?
> >
> > Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
> > early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.
>
> >
> > What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
>
>
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[David Carlson]

I believe that you are witnessing first hand why trading accounts are not
enabled by default,  i.e. they create a royal mess in your trading history.

You might want to re-read the recent thread about evil trading accounts.
 They may work ok for some users who's documentation goals align with the
design parameters of TA's.

Other users will prefer to continue either manually tracking lots in
external spreadsheets or trusting their brokers back rooms to do it for
them.

Oh, I am neither a developer nor an accountant, just a long term user.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022, 5:47 PM Fred Tydeman  wrote:

> Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
> GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  Besides
> normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
> many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
> accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
> https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe that
> my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
> assets whose value varies) were done wrong.
>
> Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
> Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
> Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
> varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.
>
> Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?
>
> Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
> early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.
>
> What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts

[davidcousens49]

Fred,

Not early in the guide, but in the section dealing with multiple currencies
https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v4/C/gnucash-guide/currency_trading_accts.html and
discussed on the wiki (https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Trading_Accounts). 

I don't think anyone has yet written anything about any application to trading
stocks and I don't think they are intended to be applied there. 

It is recommended to read the guide and help manual fully  before using GnuCash.
I didn't, like many other users, but I did have a general accounting background
coming in. You will find a lot of discussion in the mailing list archives re
stock trading and unrealized gains and losses..

If they were mentioned earlier it is likely they would confuse new users with
limited experience of double entry accounting and accounting practice. It is a
compromise to get new users in the door. 

Trading counts are about providing information in the accounts for unrealized
gains and losses involving currency transactions.

It is not normal accounting practice to recognize unrealized gains or losses in
the books as income/expenses and the circumstances under which they may be
recognized in some jurisdictions are likely to be highly variable. They are not
normally taxable until the gains are actually realized in the majority of
jurisdictions. That is why they aren't a default option.

I wouldn't think there is any need to redo past transactions unless the
information re unrealized gains and losses through currency exchange
transactions is necessary for some specific reporting process.

David Cousens

On Tue, 2022-07-26 at 18:46 -0400, Fred Tydeman wrote:
> Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
> GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  Besides
> normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
> many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
> accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
> https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe that
> my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
> assets whose value varies) were done wrong.
> 
> Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
> Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
> Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
> varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.
> 
> Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?
> 
> Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
> early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.

> 
> What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?


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[GNC] Trading accounts

[Fred Tydeman]

Over the past several months, I have been importing Quicken data into
GnuCash.  There is about 6 years of data and lots of transactions.  Besides
normal income and expenses, that data involved many different stocks and
many different currencies.  Recently, I saw a reference to "Trading"
accounts.  I have now enabled that feature.  Based on reading
https://www.mathstat.dal.ca/~selinger/accounting/tutorial, I believe that
my old transactions that involve currencies (and maybe stocks and other
assets whose value varies) were done wrong.

Do I need to redo old transactions involving currencies?
Do I need to redo old transactions involving stocks?
Do I need to redo old transactions involving any assets whose price
varies?  This probably depends upon the asset, eg. no for Real Estate.

Is there an easy way to fix the mess I have created?

Aside:  I do not recall any mention of trading accounts in the Tutorial
early on when it talked about setting up the Chart of Accounts.

What is the reason that Trading accounts are not turned on by default?
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[Mike Alexander]

On 4 Apr 2021, at 3:29, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:


Do you think I should file bug reports?


Sure, if you can specify detailed step by step instructions for 
reproducing the errors.  The more information you can give the more 
likely it is to get fixed.


Mike
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[zuperkoleoptera]

On Sat, 2021-04-03 at 03:21 -0400, Mike Alexander wrote:
> On 3 Apr 2021, at 1:31, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Another issue that I just realized and is related to the
> > functionality
> > of trading accounts, but maybe not the one that we are discussing
> > here,
> > is the security/currency of the top level placeholder account
> > Trading.
> > Shouldn't that be set in my base currency EUR? Strangely enough in
> > my
> > case it's set in VOW which is a security I trade.
> I'm not sure where that came from, but I don't think it matters. I
> can't think of anything that GnuCash would use that commodity for.
> Another thing that we've sort of passed over without comment is that
> trading accounts don't have much to do with realized gains. You still
> need to record them as you presumably have been by using splits to a
> "realized gain" income account with zero shares and non-zero value.
> Trading accounts are more about making the books balance with
> unrealized gains.
> Mike
Yes you are right and that was what I was looking for when I first
looked into the functionality. 

The problem is that it produces a lot of new transaction splits that
don't make sense to me or to my usecase scenario. 
I think for now my testing is over and I will move on deleting the
trading accounts and all related splits, as I have read in some
previous messages in the list. 
I have turned the feature on in another book, an individual upstart
bussiness that I am now starting and see how this works out in a
different setting.

Anyhow for my use case I have discovered 3 following issues, which
could be bugs

- Trading placeholder account is set in the wrong security / currency
- Splits are automatically created in past cross-currency/commodity 
transactions
- Trading accounts do not obey commodity value smallest fraction

Do you think I should file bug reports?

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[Mike Alexander]

On 3 Apr 2021, at 1:31, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:


Another issue that I just realized and is related to the functionality
of trading accounts, but maybe not the one that we are discussing 
here,

is the security/currency of the top level placeholder account Trading.
Shouldn't that be set in my base currency EUR? Strangely enough in my
case it's set in VOW which is a security I trade.


I'm not sure where that came from, but I don't think it matters.  I 
can't think of anything that GnuCash would use that commodity for.


Another thing that we've sort of passed over without comment is that 
trading accounts don't have much to do with *realized* gains.  You still 
need to record them as you presumably have been by using splits to a 
"realized gain" income account with zero shares and non-zero value.  
Trading accounts are more about making the books balance with 
*unrealized* gains.


Mike
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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[zuperkoleoptera]

On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 13:38 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 12:23 PM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 11:58 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM,
> > > > > > zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > which by the way it
> > > > > > > does not use the default security fraction which is
> > > > > > > 1/
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > 1/.   
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> > > > > > fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated
> > > > > > price
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit
> > > > > > integers.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is
> > > > > rounded
> > > > > to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in
> > > > > the
> > > > > balancing logic?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > John Ralls
> > > > > 
> > > > Yes you are right, the account created by the trading
> > > > subsystem,
> > > > Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security
> > > > in
> > > > the
> > > > system not in eur which is a currency. 
> > > > Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the
> > > > "smallest
> > > > fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
> > > > But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect
> > > > the
> > > > actual value of the account, it's just visual.   
> > > 
> > > No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing
> > > because .0012 != .00115652.
> > > 
> > > As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen
> > > to
> > > all cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that
> > > you
> > > touched?
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > John Ralls
> > > 
> > > 
> > To all cross-commodity transactions, I haven't touched - balanced
> > any
> > transaction yet.
> > I turned on trading accounts just a few days a go and still trying
> > to
> > evaluate my situation, whether I will keep the feature on or not. 
> 
> Well, you've touched at least the one from the screenshot. You can't
> get that dialog box unless you've opened the transaction for editing.
> 
> If you open the register for Trading:BTC-EUR are there lots of
> transactions listed?
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
Sorry did not understand that by touching you meant click inside. 
Yes I have touched several transactions. No there are not lots in
Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR  

Another issue that I just realized and is related to the functionality
of trading accounts, but maybe not the one that we are discussing here,
is the security/currency of the top level placeholder account Trading.
Shouldn't that be set in my base currency EUR? Strangely enough in my
case it's set in VOW which is a security I trade.   


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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[John Ralls]

> On Apr 2, 2021, at 12:23 PM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 11:58 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
 
 
> On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls 
> wrote:
> 
> On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> which by the way it
>> does not use the default security fraction which is
>> 1/
>> but
>> 1/.   
> 
> The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price
> is
> as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit
> integers.
 
 Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is
 rounded
 to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
 balancing logic?
 
 Regards,
 John Ralls
 
>>> Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
>>> Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in
>>> the
>>> system not in eur which is a currency. 
>>> Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
>>> fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
>>> But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
>>> actual value of the account, it's just visual.   
>> 
>> No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing
>> because .0012 != .00115652.
>> 
>> As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen to
>> all cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that you
>> touched?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> 
>> 
> To all cross-commodity transactions, I haven't touched - balanced any
> transaction yet.
> I turned on trading accounts just a few days a go and still trying to
> evaluate my situation, whether I will keep the feature on or not. 

Well, you've touched at least the one from the screenshot. You can't get that 
dialog box unless you've opened the transaction for editing.

If you open the register for Trading:BTC-EUR are there lots of transactions 
listed?

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[zuperkoleoptera]

On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 11:58 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > which by the way it
> > > > > does not use the default security fraction which is
> > > > > 1/
> > > > > but
> > > > > 1/.   
> > > > 
> > > > The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> > > > fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price
> > > > is
> > > > as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit
> > > > integers.
> > > 
> > > Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is
> > > rounded
> > > to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
> > > balancing logic?
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > John Ralls
> > > 
> > Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
> > Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in
> > the
> > system not in eur which is a currency. 
> > Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
> > fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
> > But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
> > actual value of the account, it's just visual.   
> 
> No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing
> because .0012 != .00115652.
> 
> As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen to
> all cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that you
> touched?
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
> 
To all cross-commodity transactions, I haven't touched - balanced any
transaction yet.
I turned on trading accounts just a few days a go and still trying to
evaluate my situation, whether I will keep the feature on or not.   




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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[John Ralls]

> On Apr 2, 2021, at 9:42 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 which by the way it
 does not use the default security fraction which is 1/
 but
 1/.   
>>> 
>>> The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
>>> fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price is
>>> as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit integers.
>> 
>> Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is rounded
>> to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
>> balancing logic?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> John Ralls
>> 
> Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
> Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in the
> system not in eur which is a currency. 
> Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
> fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
> But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
> actual value of the account, it's just visual.   

No, it's pretty clearly keeping the transaction from balancing because .0012 != 
.00115652.

As for the trading splits miraculously appearing, did that happen to all 
cross-commodity transactions in your book or just ones that you touched?

Regards,
John Ralls


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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[zuperkoleoptera]

On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 08:47 -0700, John Ralls wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls  wrote:
> > 
> > On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > 
> > > which by the way it
> > > does not use the default security fraction which is 1/
> > > but
> > > 1/.   
> > 
> > The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's
> > fraction. That's for display only, the actual calculated price is
> > as exact a fraction as can be represented with two 64-bit integers.
> 
> Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is rounded
> to 1/1000. Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the
> balancing logic?
> 
> Regards,
> John Ralls
> 
Yes you are right, the account created by the trading subsystem,
Trading:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR, is in BTC which is a security in the
system not in eur which is a currency. 
Although I have switched to use "commodity value" in the "smallest
fraction" switch it still uses 1/ instead the 1/. 
But this is somehow minor issue as I assume it does not affect the
actual value of the account, it's just visual.   

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[John Ralls]

> On Apr 2, 2021, at 8:37 AM, John Ralls  wrote:
> 
> On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> which by the way it
>> does not use the default security fraction which is 1/ but
>> 1/.   
> 
> The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's fraction. That's 
> for display only, the actual calculated price is as exact a fraction as can 
> be represented with two 64-bit integers.

Sorry, you meant that the BTC amount in the trading split is rounded to 1/1000. 
Maybe there's a 1/100 clamp left somewhere in the balancing logic?

Regards,
John Ralls

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[John Ralls]

On Apr 2, 2021, at 4:05 AM, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> which by the way it
> does not use the default security fraction which is 1/ but
> 1/.   

The price is in Euro, so it displays as 1/100 of the Euro's fraction. That's 
for display only, the actual calculated price is as exact a fraction as can be 
represented with two 64-bit integers.

Regards,
John Ralls



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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[zuperkoleoptera]

I have been using lots and scrubing my investment accounts to track
realized gains. But since I have turned on trading accounts I have not
scrubbed any account. 

I am attaching an example of 2 splits created after turning on trading
accounts. As a side-note some of the account names are in Greek...
This is a past purchase of bitcoin using euros. So the system has
created (1) a split to Trading:CURRENCY:EUR for 39.90 and (2) a split
in Trasing:Crypto Currency:BTC-EUR fro 0.0011 BTC, which by the way it
does not use the default security fraction which is 1/ but
1/.   

Furthermore the system recognises that the transaction is not balanced
and each time I try to change the splits it pops up the window that I
am attaching you in the 2nd file. 

To my understanding the system has created a bunch of splits in all my
transactions involved with my crypto portfolio that I need to go and
manualy rebalance.   

Did any of the above helped to you to understand the situation better?

On Fri, 2021-04-02 at 03:32 -0400, Mike Alexander wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2021, at 11:21, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > The problem I am facing is the following, after activating trading
> > accounts the system created the hierarchy for all the trading 
> > accounts,
> > but also created a bunch of splits in already recorded
> > transactions. 
> > So
> > from the beginning the trading:currency:EUR account has a balance
> > of
> > almost 2.300 eur and includes all my transactions related to my
> > crypto
> > portfolio.
> 
> Merely turning on trading accounts shouldn't create any new splits in
> existing transactions.  I suspect you must have used one or more of
> the 
> scrub commands to create them.
> 
> I would have to have more details to see what is going on, but if you
> use one ore more commodities for crypto and have transactions that
> buy 
> or sell those commodities in Euros, then it is normal for trading 
> account splits to be created for those transactions, but only when
> the 
> transaction is edited or scrubbed.
> 
> Mike

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Re: [GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[Mike Alexander]

On 28 Mar 2021, at 11:21, zuperkoleopt...@gmail.com wrote:


The problem I am facing is the following, after activating trading
accounts the system created the hierarchy for all the trading 
accounts,
but also created a bunch of splits in already recorded transactions. 
So

from the beginning the trading:currency:EUR account has a balance of
almost 2.300 eur and includes all my transactions related to my crypto
portfolio.


Merely turning on trading accounts shouldn't create any new splits in 
existing transactions.  I suspect you must have used one or more of the 
scrub commands to create them.


I would have to have more details to see what is going on, but if you 
use one ore more commodities for crypto and have transactions that buy 
or sell those commodities in Euros, then it is normal for trading 
account splits to be created for those transactions, but only when the 
transaction is edited or scrubbed.


Mike
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[GNC] Trading accounts functionality

[zuperkoleoptera]

I've been using gnucash since 2014, recording my personal finances and
investments. I am in Europe so my main currency is EUR.
Up until now my investments were in EUR currency as well as some
crypto, which are again expressed in EUR currency.

Lately I started building an investment portfolio in USD, so I started
exploring the trading accounts functionality. I have read both articles
from P. Selinger and browsed through the documentation and mailing
lists, for related subjects.
The problem I am facing is the following, after activating trading
accounts the system created the hierarchy for all the trading accounts,
but also created a bunch of splits in already recorded transactions. So
from the beginning the trading:currency:EUR account has a balance of
almost 2.300 eur and includes all my transactions related to my crypto
portfolio. 
Is this normal for the trading system to create splits in already
recorded transactions? And what does it mean for the
trading:currency:EUR to have a positive balance of 2.300 eur, is this
exchange realized gain?

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