Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-16 Thread Michael or Penny Novack

That's how I learned it at Ernst & Ernst when I worked there. (I
attended the firm's basic accounting course for non-accountants.) I
believe our textbook called the special account Income Summary rather
than Profit and loss, but that's a minor detail.


A very minor detail, especially because what this report traditionally 
depends on the type of entity for which the books are kept. That is 
perhaps WHY your basic "accounting for non-accountants" used a more 
generic name. It was only "for profit" businesses that called this 
report "Profit and Loss". These days a non-profit might call it 
"Statement of Revenues and Expenses" (or "Revenue Statement". For 
personal books (non-business) something like "Income and Expenses". Not 
that the original name in gnucash was :Income Statement" which is quite 
close to the name used in your course.


Michael D Novack

PS -- there are other reports in gnucash where the name chosen can be a 
source of confusion.



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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-15 Thread Adrien Monteleone
Strangely nearly all quick-serve businesses stopped offering receipts 
about 18-24 months ago. (at least in my neck-o-the-woods) Their printers 
were spitting them out mind you, but they would quickly just crumple and 
toss them. I'm sure I annoyed a few cashiers by asking for it. I even 
told one when they complained that perhaps *they* should ask. Their 
response was, "I used to but *everyone* declined, so I just started 
throwing them." I'm sure their boss would have been happier to know that 
tidbit so they could turn off auto-receipt printing, or maybe that would 
have been an opportune time to instruct their employees to just hand it 
out and let the customer toss it if they don't want it.


(I honestly thought offering a receipt was required by law, I guess not.)

To be sure, I don't think any 'conspiracy against receipts memo' was 
sent out nationwide, but it might be one of those '100th monkey' scenarios.


I got a kick out of asking for receipts at the local taproom for each 
round. (paying cash as I go) One of the bar guests thought I had devised 
a way to write-off beer! (certainly no, but it was the surest way to 
keep track of my beer budget.)


Regards,
Adrien

On 2/15/21 7:11 PM, Larry Long wrote:

  Thanks for the illuminating responses from Stan, Adrien and Michael!
It reminds me of years ago when my wife had to start reporting her business expenses and 
she had a hard time remembering to always get a receipt.One day I finally said "You 
have two hands. Hold both of them out with your palms up.  Just remember when your money 
leaves one hand, you should be getting a receipt back in the other hand."It served 
as a good visual reminder for me with expenses, also.:-)


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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-15 Thread Larry Long
 Thanks for the illuminating responses from Stan, Adrien and Michael!
It reminds me of years ago when my wife had to start reporting her business 
expenses and she had a hard time remembering to always get a receipt.One day I 
finally said "You have two hands. Hold both of them out with your palms up.  
Just remember when your money leaves one hand, you should be getting a receipt 
back in the other hand."It served as a good visual reminder for me with 
expenses, also.:-)
Larry

  
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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts? (Stan Brown)

2021-02-15 Thread Stan Brown


On 2021-02-15 14:12, Larry Long wrote:
>  Stan,
> You gave an excellent intro into the fundamentals of accounting (and GnuCash)!

> I would like to follow up with a basic question of my own.
> Let's say that I have added my new car's value to Assets and my auto loan to 
> Liabilities.After a year, I log the car's depreciation as a reduction to it's 
> account in Assets.Where is the account for the offsetting depreciation 
> amount?Is that an expense?

Yes, the two splits for a record of depreciation are a minus to
Asset:Car and an equal and opposite plus to Expense:Car Depreciation --
or perhaps Expense:Transportation. Of course you can set whatever
account titles you wish, and you can also decide how finely you want to
subdivide things.

Don't know if you've set up your GC to use standard accounting
terminology, but if you have then it would be a credit to the asset
(which decreases it) and a debit to the expense (which increases that).

-- 
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
https://OakRoadSystems.com
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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts? (Stan Brown)

2021-02-15 Thread gnu Gord
Thank you very much to all that replied. There are, obviously, a lot of
people out there with a much deeper understanding of this than I currently
have (or probably ever will) and I thank you for sharing your knowledge and
experience.
I am slowly getting a handle on the overall concepts and believe the point
here is to 'account' for all movement of funds. In a perfect world, every
transaction would have a source and a destination (my terminology) and
every account would start at zero but if we start with something we need to
record where it came from so we can use 'opening balance' in Equity. I'm
not completely sure if this is all correct (or close to correct) but it's
kind of the way I understand it so far...

I believe for my purposes, now, I will record only 'opening balances' in
the Equity account. That should get me by until I realize it's completely
wrong. ;)

Thanks again.



On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 2:22 PM Adrien Monteleone <
adrien.montele...@lusfiber.net> wrote:

> Generally yes, but that usually is not done for a personal vehicle
> unless you are allowed to do so for some type of credit or deduction on
> taxes. Businesses routinely depreciate their fleets however. The rules
> are varied and myriad as to what you are allowed to do.
>
> Regards,
> Adrien
>
> On 2/15/21 4:12 PM, Larry Long wrote:
> >   Stan,
> > You gave an excellent intro into the fundamentals of accounting (and
> GnuCash)!I would like to follow up with a basic question of my own.
> > Let's say that I have added my new car's value to Assets and my auto
> loan to Liabilities.After a year, I log the car's depreciation as a
> reduction to it's account in Assets.Where is the account for the offsetting
> depreciation amount?Is that an expense?
>
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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-15 Thread Adrien Monteleone


On 2/15/21 4:37 PM, Michael or Penny Novack wrote:

On 2/15/2021 5:17 PM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:



(technically, Income & Expenses are 'temporary' Equity accounts, but 
GnuCash gives them their own 'top-level' with Assets, Equity & 
Liabilities. In the pen days, you closed these out at the end of 
the year to Retained Earnings, also an Equity account.)


Even more pedantic (from somebody who was first keeping books in those 
days when it was pen and ink in paper) you FIRST closed the income and 
expense accounts to a special (equity) account called "profit and loss" 
and you closed THAT account with the net profit (or loss) to retained 
earnings. The closed "profit and loss" account became your "Profit and 
Loss" report.


How did I forget? Yes, I learned it that way as well.




Thus the expanded equation is:

    Assets = Liabilities + Income - Expenses 


Well  --- Assets = Liabilities + Equity + Income - Expenses  < 
there really isn't any subtraction; expenses are debits and this is the 
credit side of the equation>


Yeah, I once tried to explain to my Mom & Dad how accounting isn't 
really about math equations, but how you 'account' for what you did. 
They never got it.


Regards,
Adrien

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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-15 Thread Michael or Penny Novack

On 2/15/2021 5:17 PM, Adrien Monteleone wrote:



(technically, Income & Expenses are 'temporary' Equity accounts, but 
GnuCash gives them their own 'top-level' with Assets, Equity & 
Liabilities. In the pen days, you closed these out at the end of 
the year to Retained Earnings, also an Equity account.)


Even more pedantic (from somebody who was first keeping books in those 
days when it was pen and ink in paper) you FIRST closed the income and 
expense accounts to a special (equity) account called "profit and loss" 
and you closed THAT account with the net profit (or loss) to retained 
earnings. The closed "profit and loss" account became your "Profit and 
Loss" report.



Thus the expanded equation is:

    Assets = Liabilities + Income - Expenses 


Well  --- Assets = Liabilities + Equity + Income - Expenses  < 
there really isn't any subtraction; expenses are debits and this is the 
credit side of the equation>


Michael D Novack

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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts? (Stan Brown)

2021-02-15 Thread Adrien Monteleone
Generally yes, but that usually is not done for a personal vehicle 
unless you are allowed to do so for some type of credit or deduction on 
taxes. Businesses routinely depreciate their fleets however. The rules 
are varied and myriad as to what you are allowed to do.


Regards,
Adrien

On 2/15/21 4:12 PM, Larry Long wrote:

  Stan,
You gave an excellent intro into the fundamentals of accounting (and GnuCash)!I 
would like to follow up with a basic question of my own.
Let's say that I have added my new car's value to Assets and my auto loan to 
Liabilities.After a year, I log the car's depreciation as a reduction to it's 
account in Assets.Where is the account for the offsetting depreciation 
amount?Is that an expense?


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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-15 Thread Adrien Monteleone
While this may seem pedantic (and maybe it is), most texts present the 
Accounting Equation as:


Assets = Liabilities + Equity

Balance Sheets are based off this arrangement of the equation. That is 
why you will generally see an Asset section first, with a total, and 
then a second section or column with a "Liabilities + Equity" total that 
exactly matches the Asset total.


Equity can be further broken down to:

Income - Expenses

(technically, Income & Expenses are 'temporary' Equity accounts, but 
GnuCash gives them their own 'top-level' with Assets, Equity & 
Liabilities. In the pen days, you closed these out at the end of 
the year to Retained Earnings, also an Equity account.)


Thus the expanded equation is:

Assets = Liabilities + Income - Expenses


Regards,
Adrien

On 2/14/21 3:29 PM, gnu Gord wrote:

First off I'll say I have no formal accounting training so I don't really
understand accounting terminology or how it is represented in GnuCash.

I understand the basic idea that Equity = Assets - Liabilities, but I'm
unsure how this should be entered in GnuCash.

Specifically, my question is; how do I know if something I have should be
recorded in an Asset account or an Equity account?

For example, our house. The documentation says an asset is something I own.
That would mean our house should go in the Asset account, correct?
But the documentation also says equity is my overall net worth. If I don't
owe anything on my house, should it be recorded in an equity account
instead of an asset account?

What about a car, should it be recorded as an asset or equity if I own some
of it but have a loan on it as well?

Sorry for asking so many dumb questions but my head is about to explode!!
;)
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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts? (Stan Brown)

2021-02-15 Thread Larry Long
 Stan,
You gave an excellent intro into the fundamentals of accounting (and GnuCash)!I 
would like to follow up with a basic question of my own.
Let's say that I have added my new car's value to Assets and my auto loan to 
Liabilities.After a year, I log the car's depreciation as a reduction to it's 
account in Assets.Where is the account for the offsetting depreciation 
amount?Is that an expense?
Thank you.
Larry Long
On Monday, February 15, 2021, 12:30:19 AM EST, 
gnucash-user-requ...@gnucash.org  wrote:  
...
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:08:02 -0800
From: Stan Brown 
To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org
Subject: Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?
Message-ID: <167aeb21-5037-b157-34fe-85173c33a...@fastmail.fm>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

...
Hi, Gord. Welcome to GnuCash!
I think you may have missed a fundamental concept, and that's giving you
all of the questions you mentioned above.

The fundamental concept is: Every transaction, without exception,
comprises two or more sub-entries, called "splits" in Gnucash. The
splits in any give transaction must balance; if they don't, GC
automatically creates an "imbalance" split to tell you the amount
they're out of balance.

What do I mean by "the splits must balance"? To answer that, let's first
rearrange and expand that accounting equation you mentioned. You stated
correctly:
    Equity = Assets - Liabilities

That's correct as far as it goes, but it leaves out two other categories
of accounts: Income and Expense. You can think of Income and Expense as
adjustments to Equity from your day-to-day operations, but for a
beginner it's probably easier to just think of them as independent types
of accounts. That expands the basic equation in this way:
    Equity + Income - Expenses = Assets - Liabilities
"Equity" is accountant-speak for your net worth. Income increases your
net worth, and expenses reduce it. But from the equation, since
everything must balance, you can see other possibilities too.

Here's an example. Suppose you go to the grocery store and charge $120
worth of groceries to your Visa card. Then your transaction has two splits:
    Expense:Groceries +120
    Liability:Visa    +120
Expenses (left side of the equation) and liabilities (right side) both
increase by $120, so your transaction is in balance.

Now let's take your car question. Your car is an asset. Let's suppose
you just bought it for $20,000. You paid $2500 down and financed
$17,500. The transaction would be recorded in three splits:
    Assets:Car          +20,000
    Liability:Car loan  +17,500
    Assets:Bank Acct    - 2,500
How does that work in terms of the accounting equation? Assets are
increasing by 20,000 for the car but decreasing by 2,500 from bank
account, for a net increase of 17,500; liabilities are increasing by
17,400. So each side of the equation is increasing by 17,500, and once
again your transaction balances.

Most types of transactions will increase both sides of the equation or
decrease both sides, but some are a plus and a minus on one side that
net out to not changing the equation. For instance, you get your Visa
bill for $1822 and pay it. Here's your transaction:
    Liability:Visa  -1822
    Asset:Bank Acct -1822
The right side of the equation is Assets - Liabilities. If an asset
moves up or down, and a liability moves up or down by the same amount,
there is no net change on that side of the equation. The details have
changed, but not the totals, because of that minus sign in "Assets -
Liabilities". Once again, your transaction is in balance.

Now let's take your house. Suppose it's worth $300,000, or at least
that's what you paid for it, and your current mortgage balance is
$170,000. There are three splits in the transaction that records this.
Two of them are easy to see:
    Asset:House        300,000
    Liability:Mortgage 170,000
But this is out of balance. How should the 130,000 difference be
recorded to keep things in balance? As you suspected, that's part of
your net worth, so the third split in this transaction is
    Equity:Net Worth  130,000

(If you own your house free and clear, you record the full value in
Asset:House and also in Equity:Net Worth. Again, the equation balances
because each side is increased by $300,000.)

Hopefully from this you get the idea. It's not a question of which one
account you should record something in, but which two (or more)
accounts, to keep every transaction in balance.

--
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
https://OakRoadSystems.com

*
  
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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-14 Thread Stan Brown
On 2021-02-14 13:29, gnu Gord wrote:
> First off I'll say I have no formal accounting training so I don't really
> understand accounting terminology or how it is represented in GnuCash.
> 
> I understand the basic idea that Equity = Assets - Liabilities, but I'm
> unsure how this should be entered in GnuCash.
> 
> Specifically, my question is; how do I know if something I have should be
> recorded in an Asset account or an Equity account?
> 
> For example, our house. The documentation says an asset is something I own.
> That would mean our house should go in the Asset account, correct?
> But the documentation also says equity is my overall net worth. If I don't
> owe anything on my house, should it be recorded in an equity account
> instead of an asset account?
> 
> What about a car, should it be recorded as an asset or equity if I own some
> of it but have a loan on it as well?
> 
> Sorry for asking so many dumb questions but my head is about to explode!!
> ;)

Hi, Gord. Welcome to GnuCash!

I think you may have missed a fundamental concept, and that's giving you
all of the questions you mentioned above.

The fundamental concept is: Every transaction, without exception,
comprises two or more sub-entries, called "splits" in Gnucash. The
splits in any give transaction must balance; if they don't, GC
automatically creates an "imbalance" split to tell you the amount
they're out of balance.

What do I mean by "the splits must balance"? To answer that, let's first
rearrange and expand that accounting equation you mentioned. You stated
correctly:
Equity = Assets - Liabilities

That's correct as far as it goes, but it leaves out two other categories
of accounts: Income and Expense. You can think of Income and Expense as
adjustments to Equity from your day-to-day operations, but for a
beginner it's probably easier to just think of them as independent types
of accounts. That expands the basic equation in this way:
Equity + Income - Expenses = Assets - Liabilities
"Equity" is accountant-speak for your net worth. Income increases your
net worth, and expenses reduce it. But from the equation, since
everything must balance, you can see other possibilities too.

Here's an example. Suppose you go to the grocery store and charge $120
worth of groceries to your Visa card. Then your transaction has two splits:
Expense:Groceries +120
Liability:Visa+120
Expenses (left side of the equation) and liabilities (right side) both
increase by $120, so your transaction is in balance.

Now let's take your car question. Your car is an asset. Let's suppose
you just bought it for $20,000. You paid $2500 down and financed
$17,500. The transaction would be recorded in three splits:
Assets:Car  +20,000
Liability:Car loan  +17,500
Assets:Bank Acct- 2,500
How does that work in terms of the accounting equation? Assets are
increasing by 20,000 for the car but decreasing by 2,500 from bank
account, for a net increase of 17,500; liabilities are increasing by
17,400. So each side of the equation is increasing by 17,500, and once
again your transaction balances.

Most types of transactions will increase both sides of the equation or
decrease both sides, but some are a plus and a minus on one side that
net out to not changing the equation. For instance, you get your Visa
bill for $1822 and pay it. Here's your transaction:
Liability:Visa  -1822
Asset:Bank Acct -1822
The right side of the equation is Assets - Liabilities. If an asset
moves up or down, and a liability moves up or down by the same amount,
there is no net change on that side of the equation. The details have
changed, but not the totals, because of that minus sign in "Assets -
Liabilities". Once again, your transaction is in balance.

Now let's take your house. Suppose it's worth $300,000, or at least
that's what you paid for it, and your current mortgage balance is
$170,000. There are three splits in the transaction that records this.
Two of them are easy to see:
Asset:House300,000
Liability:Mortgage 170,000
But this is out of balance. How should the 130,000 difference be
recorded to keep things in balance? As you suspected, that's part of
your net worth, so the third split in this transaction is
Equity:Net Worth   130,000

(If you own your house free and clear, you record the full value in
Asset:House and also in Equity:Net Worth. Again, the equation balances
because each side is increased by $300,000.)

Hopefully from this you get the idea. It's not a question of which one
account you should record something in, but which two (or more)
accounts, to keep every transaction in balance.

--
Stan Brown
Tehachapi, CA, USA
https://BrownMath.com
https://OakRoadSystems.com


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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-14 Thread David Cousens
gnuGord,

If you have ownership, possession and/or control of your house and car or
any other resource then they are assets. Bank accounts are also assets for
example. Your furniture, a boat, camper etc  are all assets.

If you have taken a loan out to buy them, the present value of that loan is
a liability, usually against that specific asset (e.g. mortgage) or your
assets in general,  i.e. you are obligated to pay it back with loss of the
asset or a considerable fraction of its value a likely penalty if you don't.
Any obligation you have to pay someone else some amount of money is a
liability.

Your equity in the house and car is the difference between their present
value as assets and the outstanding liabilities against those assets. In
most cases the cost of an asset is used to record its value as until you
have sold it you do not have a definite value to ascribe to it. 

It is possible to track market values (unrealized gains and losses) on
assets but it will be better to leave looking at this until you have the
basic accounting under control. Each jurisdiction has rules re reporting of
unrealized gains and losses and these can be quite variable).

The only entries you normally make to equity as Stephen said are when you
enter the opening balances of your assets and liabilities and if you close
the temporary equity (Income and Expenses) accounts to equity ( this is not
necessary in GnuCash but may be for external accounting procedural
purposes). 

The transactions to add the value of an existing asset is normally:
1. a debit to the asset account for the present value of the asset and 
2. a credit entry to the equity opening balances account (or an appropriate
subaccount of the opening balances for that specific asset if you require
that level of detail)

 and to add a liability 
1. a credit to the liability account recording the liability and 
2.a debit to the opening balances sub account of equity (or again a sub
account of that depending on the detail you require, i.e. if you need to
know the equity you have in specific assets.

These are the individual lines (or splits) of a single transaction. If you
select View->Auto Split Ledger from the menu then each transaction in a
register of an account will open up to display the individual lines/splits
composing it.

See https://code.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-guide/chapter_basics.html for a
very basic  introduction to accounting. The Wikipedia articles on Double
Entry, debits and Credits and basic accounting are pretty good as well.
Otherwise a reasonably recent  second hand textbook on financial accounting
is a good investment for the basics.

David Cousens



-
David Cousens
--
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Re: [GNC] Asset vs Equity accounts?

2021-02-14 Thread Stephen M. Butler

On 2/14/21 1:29 PM, gnu Gord wrote:

First off I'll say I have no formal accounting training so I don't really
understand accounting terminology or how it is represented in GnuCash.

I understand the basic idea that Equity = Assets - Liabilities, but I'm
unsure how this should be entered in GnuCash.

Specifically, my question is; how do I know if something I have should be
recorded in an Asset account or an Equity account?

For example, our house. The documentation says an asset is something I own.
That would mean our house should go in the Asset account, correct?
But the documentation also says equity is my overall net worth. If I don't
owe anything on my house, should it be recorded in an equity account
instead of an asset account?

What about a car, should it be recorded as an asset or equity if I own some
of it but have a loan on it as well?

Sorry for asking so many dumb questions but my head is about to explode!!
;)


I know the feeling.  Though I have had no "formal" training, my wife has 
been trained as an accountant.

So, let me try to simplify things:

1.  Equity -- it happens.  Usually you don't do anything to this except 
in rare instances (such as year end closing of books -- if you need to 
do that).
You will want an "Equity:OpeningBalance" account for the initial 
transaction that sets up all the opening balances.  It will be whatever 
is left over after setting the opening balance for all the Asset and 
Liability accounts.  You may not want or need an 
"Equity:RetainedEarnings" account.  I have one since I like to close the 
books at the end of the year.  It isn't needed and a lot of folks 
don't.  GnC will handle reports properly either way.


2.  Assets -- if you own even a tiny piece of it, it goes here.  If you 
owe a portion then we'll make a second account for it over in Liabilities.
    Group your assets into logical groups -- like all your accounts at 
bank X would go into ASSETS:BANKX: (where  is Checking, Saving, 
CD, Money Market -- the various accounts that contain your money.

    Remember to track CASH as an asset also.
    House -- it's the purchase price plus any additions you have made 
over the years -- your account will give you better advice.

    Vehicles -- what you paid to buy them.
    If other people owe you money, that would be tracked in an asset 
account (Loan to Cousin Joe)


3. Liabilities -- what you owe.  Car loans.  House Mortgage. Credit Card 
(even when paid off each month), etc.


4.  Income -- any money that comes to you whether you will be taxed on 
it or not.  "But", you say, "My paycheck went into the checking 
account."  Yup, you are right.  But GnC is a "Double Entry" book keeping 
system.  So, the other side of that transaction for the paycheck is 
Income (and most likely some expenses).  The net goes into 
"Assets:BankX:Checking" while the gross is in "Income:MyWorkPlace" and 
any deductions go into "Expense:z" where  are for the various 
deductions your employer takes out.


5.  Expenses -- money that went out to buy things  (if it went out to 
reduce a liability then it isn't an expense).


Now, I've probably given you too much to think about right now. Feel 
free to ask further and others may jump in to help clarify things.


Don't try to eat the entire elephant at one sitting.

--
Stephen M Butler, PMP, PSM
stephen.m.butle...@gmail.com
kg...@arrl.net
253-350-0166
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