Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## - Original Message - From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since you seem so upset that Saddam has been removed by the evil George Bush, you must think he was a great guy and you must therefore also be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. Santosh: This is a pathetic attempt by Mario Goveia to smear someone who disagrees with him. Response: Santosh, I have no intentions of smearing you, just debating the issues, but if the shoe fits I'm afraid I must ask you to wear it. The above seems to be getting out of hand between the two gentlemen. Is it the same logic being followed here? 'You are either with us or not with us' remember these words?? I feel alot of crap is being fed to the citizens of US by the media. But those who have their basic rights, know how all this works:-) So plz spare us. I have trouble even segregating and using the delete button. I suppose fellow netters would agree; that there is nothing Goan about IT:) Cheers, Seb
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Tariq, You have not answered the main question which puzzles me more than any detail that we may discuss, which is WHY ARE YOU SO OPPOSED TO FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY FOR THE IRAQIS, while enjoying it for yourself? --- Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a) We all know that Saddam was a brutal dictator, b) We all know that the US, using UN resolution 1441 as a legal excuse, formed a coalition and deposed him, c) We all now know that the key members of the UN that opposed the coalition had a conflict of interest and were involved with Saddam in looting the country to the tune of some DOUBLE DIGIT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. All very good reasons, but these were not the reasons that GW Bush put forth as a reason for the war. What you talk about is what the neocons now say when their reason for the war has been exposed to be a lie. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cute answer, Tariq, but lacking in any substance. Wouldn't your case be a lot stronger if you could advance a theory that fits ALL the actual and circumstantial evidence that I have listed, about what may have happened to Iraq's WMD? Since we know the WMDs were used previously, and they admitted having them in 1991, but neither accounted for thereafter nor found by the coalition as yet, what do you think could have happened to them? I do not have to think about what happened to them. The IAEA does a good job and here is what they said As of 16 December 1998, the following assessment could be made of Iraq's clandestine programme: There were no indications to suggest that Iraq was successful in its attempt to produce nuclear weapons. Iraq's explanation of its progress towards the finalisation of a workable design for its nuclear weapons was considered to be consistent with the resources and time scale indicated by the available programme documentation. Iraq was at, or close to, the threshold of success in such areas as the production of HEU through the EMIS process, the production and pilot cascading of single-cylinder sub-critical gas centrifuge machines, and the fabrication of the explosive package for a nuclear weapon There were no indications to suggest that Iraq had produced more than a few grams of weapons-grade nuclear material through its indigenous processes. There were no indications that Iraq otherwise clandestinely acquired weapons-usable material All the safeguarded research reactor fuel was verified and fully accounted for by the IAEA and removed from Iraq. There were no indications that there remains in Iraq any physical capability for the production of amounts of weapons-usable nuclear material of any practical significance. The link for this is provided here: http://www.iaea.org/worldatom/Programmes/ActionTeam/nwp2.html The same report also provides account of the Nuclear Material that you believe still missing. In addition, please refer to Santosh Helekar's mail for the US report. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cornel, For the second time today I'm going to surprise you by agreeing with some, but not all, that you have said in this post. There is much to criticize the US for for policies throughout history. We who live in the US do it all the time as you would know if you followed the recent campaign. However, for being such an evil place as you try and make it out to be based on a few selected examples that you obviously think are critical to the overall record, the fact remains that it is one of the few places in the world that people risk their lives to get into, to the tune of around 3 million a year illegally, and a couple of million legally. If it were all that you would like to believe, people would be risking their lives to get the hell out. I will give you one example that will DRIVE YOU AND OTHER ANTI-AMERICANS NUTS, but it was spoken by a European leader who obviously disagrees with you, BASED ON THE TOTAL RECORD. Silvio Berlusconi, Prime Minister of Italy, said this and I quote: We don't see the US just as a friend, but as the guarantor of our security. We don't see the Stars and Stripes as just the US flag, but as a symbol of freedom and democracy around the world. And at the Memorial Services at Normandy on June 6, he said again, and I quote: These are people who gave thgeir lives to set us free. Visit any one of our military cemeteries in Italy, at Anzio, Montereggio, Palermo and all the others, and read the names on the headstones, names like Bradley and O'Connor, Jackson and Sanchez. Look at their ages. These young Americans came to rescue us and gave their lives so we could be free. Then come and talk to me about America. As an America-hater, Cornel, I will excuse so you can go puke. So, Cornel, I will now ask you the same question I am posing to those who oppose the action in Iraq. See if you can focus and respond with specifics if you choose to: a) We all know that Saddam was a brutal dictator, b) We all know that the US, using UN resolution 1441 as a legal excuse, formed a coalition and deposed him, c) We all now know that the key members of the UN that opposed the coalition had a conflict of interest and were involved with Saddam in looting the country to the tune of some DOUBLE DIGIT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. SO, WITH PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND ON BOTH SIDES, WHY THE HELL ARE SO MANY INDIANS, WHO APPRECIATE THEIR OWN FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, NITPICKING EVERY DETAIL AND OPPOSING THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE TO LIVE IN FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY? IF THE IRAQIS ARE MASOCHISTS AND WANT TO CONTINUE TO BE BRUTALIZED THEY CAN VOTE THE BAATHISTS BACK INTO POWER, WHO WILL RELEASE SADDAM, AND EVERYONE WILL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. WON'T THEY? SO, WHY NOT LET THEM DECIDE? --- cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, Many thanks for your considered reply. Unfortunately, I simply do not have the time at present, much as I would like, to pursue this thread of our discussion. Clearly, we are poles apart about the virtues of the USA as a super power, minimally, because for me, the USA is ready to uphold many a tyrant and eliminate even democratically elected governments it does not approve of and Chile comes readily to mind. You may recall the American general saying about Samoza (or some other right wing tyrant) that he may be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch. As to spreading democracy, Bush coos over this about Afghanistan but all that has happened there is that an American puppet has been installed and the warlords are really in charge. And do try telling the displaced people of Diego Garcia that Bush and his poodle, Blair, are promoting their freedom!! There is much for America to be proud of itself, even though it is unfairly consuming the world's resources like there is no tomorrow. I happen to share the views of those Americans (almost 50%) who do not share your rose-tinted view of America but have hopes that it will change for the better. Regards, Cornel
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Santosh, You are so full of [EMAIL PROTECTED], pardon my French, that it is a waste of time arguing with you about an attitude we can all read in your words. So, let me focus your mind and ask you to respond. Forget the rest. Believe me, I have nothing against you personally. I don't even know you, for Christ's sake. (Saiba bogus!) I have asked Tariq the same question, so I am not discriminating against you. Here's the bottom line, and I'm going to repeat it until I get a straight answer: a) We all know that Saddam was a brutal dictator, b) We all know that the US, using UN resolution 1441 as a legal excuse, formed a coalition and deposed him, c) We all now know that the key members of the UN that opposed the coalition had a conflict of interest and were involved with Saddam in looting the country to the tune of some DOUBLE DIGIT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. SO, WITH PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND ON BOTH SIDES, WHY THE HELL ARE SO MANY INDIANS, WHO APPRECIATE THEIR OWN FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, NITPICKING EVERY DETAIL AND OPPOSING THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE TO LIVE IN FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY? IF THE IRAQIS ARE MASOCHISTS AND WANT TO CONTINUE TO BE BRUTALIZED THEY CAN VOTE THE BAATHISTS BACK INTO POWER, WHO WILL RELEASE SADDAM, AND EVERYONE WILL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. WON'T THEY? SO, WHY NOT LET THEM DECIDE? --- Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Santosh, I have no intentions of smearing you, just debating the issues, but if the shoe fits I'm afraid I must ask you to wear it. It is clear from the above post, and the abuses, character assassination, prejudices and lies contained in it that Mario Goveia is incapable of defending against my charge that the Iraq war was based on a lie. He fails to defend the casus belli for this illegal war, namely the existence of WMDs and the purported imminent threat that they posed to the U.S. Like the politicians that he supports, Mr. Goveia does not have the honesty and the decency to unconditionally admit that it is now well established that there were no WMDs in Iraq just before the war, and there are none there at present. He has been reduce to demonizing me, calling me names, making baseless prejudiced statements against me, and lying and distorting the facts. And despite all this he fancies himself to be a superior logician and custodian of the choicest facts. In this post I will avoid, as far as possible, responding to Mr. Goveias abusive personal attacks against me. Suffice it to say that this aspect of his post illustrates how well he has been indoctrinated in the tactics and practices of the right wing hate mob in the U.S. His post is a poignant example almost a caricature - of the intellectual dishonesty and bankruptcy that afflicts partisan hacks on either side of the political divide in this country. I will mostly address below only the factual contradictions, distortions and post-hoc rationalizations that he has propagated in his post. mount a vicious and relentless attack on the liberation of a country that has been brutalized by dictator, has never known freedom and democracy, hasthen yell Bloody murder! when someone wonders why. The above is a load of gratuitous hogwash designed to disguise the fact that the Iraq war was based on a lie. Not knowing you makes me more objective, don't you think? I wonder which part of Mr. Goveias post reveals himself to be objective. The part where he calls me a huge supporter of Saddam Hussein? Or the one where he calls me a diehard anti-American and anti-Semite? Here is a classic example of why I think you are a huge supporter of Saddam Hussein. If you don't know that Iraq used WMDs against Iran, the Kurds at Halabja (5,000 innocent civilians dead in one day) and the Marsh Shia in the Tigris-Euphrates delta then you need to do some research and PLEASE stop embarrassing yourself. Here Mr. Goveia fantasizes that my knowledge is more limited than his. His ignorance about what I know and what I dont know does not prevent him from drawing a prejudiced conclusion, complete with a
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Tariq, Nice try, but isn't it you, and the others who support your point of view, who are opposing dissent by opposing freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people? You don't like it when I mention it, but you are mounting such a die-hard attack on anything or anyone who supports freedom and democracy for the Iraqis that I am at a loss for any other description that fits. Here's the bottom line, and I'm going to repeat it until I get a straight answer: a) We all know that Saddam was a brutal dictator, b) We all know that the US, using UN resolution 1441 as a legal excuse, formed a coalition and deposed him, c) We all now know that the key members of the UN that opposed the coalition had a conflict of interest and were involved with Saddam in looting the country to the tune of some DOUBLE DIGIT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. SO, WITH PLENTY OF BLAME TO GO AROUND ON BOTH SIDES, WHY THE HELL ARE SO MANY INDIANS, WHO APPRECIATE THEIR OWN FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, NITPICKING EVERY DETAIL AND OPPOSING THE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE IRAQI PEOPLE TO LIVE IN FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY? IF THE IRAQIS ARE MASOCHISTS AND WANT TO CONTINUE TO BE BRUTALIZED THEY CAN VOTE THE BAATHISTS BACK INTO POWER, WHO WILL RELEASE SADDAM, AND EVERYONE WILL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER. WON'T THEY? SO, WHY NOT LET THEM DECIDE? Tariq, you have to know that there are some non-Muslims who believe that democracy is not good enough for Muslims. But how the hell can you, as a Muslim, oppose freedom and democracy for fellow Muslims, well knowing that there are very few Muslim democracies, and well knowing that Muslims who live in true democracies like Britain, Canada, the US, Australia, NZ and India all agree that they are better of in every possible way than living under the heel of the militants that control daily life in all the Muslim countries? If its good enough for you, why not for the Iraqis, and all the others? Notice that I have excluded the European countries because I believe their committment to democracy is skin deep, based on the recent OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT reactions to Muslims in France and the Netherlands. --- Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See my comments below under Responses. By the way, since you are such a staunch defender of Saddam Hussein, you must have thought he and his sadistic sons were great guys, and you must really be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. Therein lies the problem with people like you. You cannot comprehend the fact that there exist ordinary people around the world whose opposition to a certain policy does not make them supportive of the opposite of that policy. Just because I did not support the war in Iraq, does not make me, or the millions like me, a supporter of Saddam Hussein. You prefer to see things that way only because you cannot tolerate dissent or comprehend objectivity. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cute answer, Tariq, but lacking in any substance. Wouldn't your case be a lot stronger if you could advance a theory that fits ALL the actual and circumstantial evidence that I have listed, about what may have happened to Iraq's WMD? Since we know the WMDs were used previously, and they admitted having them in 1991, but neither accounted for thereafter nor found by the coalition as yet, what do you think could have happened to them? --- Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Santosh, Since you seem so upset that Saddam has been removed by the evil George Bush, you must think he was a great guy and you must therefore also be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. You seem to be one of those people who is too intelligent by half. See if you can follow this simple sequential logic: 1. Before 1991 there was evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Just ask the Iranis, Kurds and Shia that these were used on. 2. In 1991 there was evidence of WMDs, because the UN has a signed agreement by Saddam acknowledging his WMDs and promising to destroy these and provide the UN with an accounting. 3. From 1991 to 2003 the UN Security Council passed 17 resolutions asking for the accounting that Saddam never provided, even though the consequence of the first 16 were crippling sanctions and of the 17th was the loss of his dictatorship and his sadistic sons. 4. Physics tells us that matter does not disappear. It has to be accounted for. 5. The coalition has not found the WMDs as yet. 6. Ipso facto, the WMDs cannot have disappeared, they have not been accounted for, they have not been found as yet, so they must be either still hidden somewhere in Iraq, or in Syria as suspected. I am suprised you did not say that they could have also been taken by UFOs . -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, Many thanks for your considered reply. Unfortunately, I simply do not have the time at present, much as I would like, to pursue this thread of our discussion. Clearly, we are poles apart about the virtues of the USA as a super power, minimally, because for me, the USA is ready to uphold many a tyrant and eliminate even democratically elected governments it does not approve of and Chile comes readily to mind. You may recall the American general saying about Samoza (or some other right wing tyrant) that he may be a son of a bitch, but he is our son of a bitch. As to spreading democracy, Bush coos over this about Afghanistan but all that has happened there is that an American puppet has been installed and the warlords are really in charge. And do try telling the displaced people of Diego Garcia that Bush and his poodle, Blair, are promoting their freedom!! There is much for America to be proud of itself, even though it is unfairly consuming the world's resources like there is no tomorrow. I happen to share the views of those Americans (almost 50%) who do not share your rose-tinted view of America but have hopes that it will change for the better. Regards, Cornel
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See my comments below under Responses. By the way, since you are such a staunch defender of Saddam Hussein, you must have thought he and his sadistic sons were great guys, and you must really be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. Therein lies the problem with people like you. You cannot comprehend the fact that there exist ordinary people around the world whose opposition to a certain policy does not make them supportive of the opposite of that policy. Just because I did not support the war in Iraq, does not make me, or the millions like me, a supporter of Saddam Hussein. You prefer to see things that way only because you cannot tolerate dissent or comprehend objectivity. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Santosh, I have no intentions of smearing you, just debating the issues, but if the shoe fits I'm afraid I must ask you to wear it. It is clear from the above post, and the abuses, character assassination, prejudices and lies contained in it that Mario Goveia is incapable of defending against my charge that the Iraq war was based on a lie. He fails to defend the casus belli for this illegal war, namely the existence of WMDs and the purported imminent threat that they posed to the U.S. Like the politicians that he supports, Mr. Goveia does not have the honesty and the decency to unconditionally admit that it is now well established that there were no WMDs in Iraq just before the war, and there are none there at present. He has been reduce to demonizing me, calling me names, making baseless prejudiced statements against me, and lying and distorting the facts. And despite all this he fancies himself to be a superior logician and custodian of the choicest facts. In this post I will avoid, as far as possible, responding to Mr. Goveias abusive personal attacks against me. Suffice it to say that this aspect of his post illustrates how well he has been indoctrinated in the tactics and practices of the right wing hate mob in the U.S. His post is a poignant example almost a caricature - of the intellectual dishonesty and bankruptcy that afflicts partisan hacks on either side of the political divide in this country. I will mostly address below only the factual contradictions, distortions and post-hoc rationalizations that he has propagated in his post. mount a vicious and relentless attack on the liberation of a country that has been brutalized by dictator, has never known freedom and democracy, hasthen yell Bloody murder! when someone wonders why. The above is a load of gratuitous hogwash designed to disguise the fact that the Iraq war was based on a lie. Not knowing you makes me more objective, don't you think? I wonder which part of Mr. Goveias post reveals himself to be objective. The part where he calls me a huge supporter of Saddam Hussein? Or the one where he calls me a diehard anti-American and anti-Semite? Here is a classic example of why I think you are a huge supporter of Saddam Hussein. If you don't know that Iraq used WMDs against Iran, the Kurds at Halabja (5,000 innocent civilians dead in one day) and the Marsh Shia in the Tigris-Euphrates delta then you need to do some research and PLEASE stop embarrassing yourself. Here Mr. Goveia fantasizes that my knowledge is more limited than his. His ignorance about what I know and what I dont know does not prevent him from drawing a prejudiced conclusion, complete with a stale and a rather childish slur. Yes there is. If Saddam had really destroyed his WMDs as he had agreed to do, he would have been able to show the UN inspectors that he had done so, and the UN resolutions would have been complied with and the crippling UN sanctions for not complying would have been removed and everyone in the Baath party could have lived happily ever after, but not the Kurds and the Shia that make up about 75% of Iraq. More hyper-defensive claptrap designed to disguise the fact that the Iraq war was based on a lie. A confused statement that goes beyond the rationale of international consensus, and appears to suggest that 100,000 more Iraqis would have had to be killed, no matter what, in the interest of democracy and freedom. No, I don't. Yes the UN inspectors destroyed some that they found...Don't you think the UN knew what its own inspectors had destroyed and what had not been accounted for? The final report on WMDs, namely the Duelfer report, commissioned by the U.S. government stated that: 1. When the United States invaded Iraq to disarm Saddam Hussein's regime, there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or any facilities to build them. 2. Saddam ordered his arsenal of chemical and biological weapons destroyed in 1991 and 1992 and halted nuclear weapons development. 3. Saddam Hussein ended the nuclear program in 1991 following the Gulf War. 4. Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991 and the survey team found no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production. 5. The former (Iraqi) regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. The above is taken from an article in USA Today posted just after the Duelfer Report was released in October 2004. The US did not lie about the AL tubes and the Niger
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Santosh, Since you seem so upset that Saddam has been removed by the evil George Bush, you must think he was a great guy and you must therefore also be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. You seem to be one of those people who is too intelligent by half. See if you can follow this simple sequential logic: 1. Before 1991 there was evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Just ask the Iranis, Kurds and Shia that these were used on. 2. In 1991 there was evidence of WMDs, because the UN has a signed agreement by Saddam acknowledging his WMDs and promising to destroy these and provide the UN with an accounting. 3. From 1991 to 2003 the UN Security Council passed 17 resolutions asking for the accounting that Saddam never provided, even though the consequence of the first 16 were crippling sanctions and of the 17th was the loss of his dictatorship and his sadistic sons. 4. Physics tells us that matter does not disappear. It has to be accounted for. 5. The coalition has not found the WMDs as yet. 6. Ipso facto, the WMDs cannot have disappeared, they have not been accounted for, they have not been found as yet, so they must be either still hidden somewhere in Iraq, or in Syria as suspected. I am suprised you did not say that they could have also been taken by UFOs . -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Cornel, some of the best anti-American critics in the world have tried to trip me up, so don't worry about it. I know it's nothing personal. We can still share a bottle of feni some day. Please see my comments below under Responses: and please understand that I am not trying to be flip, just candid. You may not like some of my comments, but I know your queries are serious, which is why I am taking the time to respond in such detail. --- cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, These are sincere queries and I am definitely not trying to trip you, nor trying to be personal nor clever. The USA has Weapons of Mass Destruction--indeed, more than the rest of the world put together and the ability to exterminate life, as we know it, on this planet. What therefore justifies the USA to demand that other countries give up their WMDs when its own weapons are never on the agenda in this debate at all? Likewise, what gives the US and nuclear powers like Britain and Israel the right to demand that Iran should not develop a nuclear arsenal to protect itself from the existing nuclear powers? Response: If I am not mistaken, it is the UN's Atomic Agency that is involved, not just the US, Britain and Israel. I'm sure you will agree, Cornel, that these are just three countries among hundreds in the UN. Furthermore, you may not like to hear this, but some of this has to do with the fact that the US has survived the Cold War as the world's only superpower. With Britain, and with consistent support from Australia, they have been in the forefront of voluntarily shedding their blood to stop brutal tyrants from dominating the world, going back to WW-I, WW-II, Korea, tha Cold War etc. If not for these countries the Europeans would have all been speaking German by now, the Indians would have been speaking Japanese, and you would not have been enjoying the freedom and democracy to continue such debates. So, what one Indian friend saw as American dadagiri is actually trying to prevent problems from developing, because it is the US, which by its history and development, belongs to the world, that is always forced to clean up the mess. You may not remember this, Cornel, but George Bush was roundly criticized by the world community when he said during the 2000 presidential campaign that he was not interested in nation building. They were all afraid that the US was going to be isolationist. Then 9/11 happened, and Bush realized that there was a gathering menace that had to be confronted, just as surely as the Germans and Japanese had to be in another era. Whether you like it or not, Cornel, as Silvio Berlusconi of Italy said recently, America underwrites the security of the free world, and unless you believe that countries it has rescued like Britain, Italy, Germany, Japan, Poland and the Warsaw pact countries, etc. are all American colonies, you would know that the US always gives the liberated country back to its people. Why the double standards and hypocrisy? What justifies the USA to be the arbiter of who does (especially the pariah state of Israel at the heart of the Middle East), and does not have nuclear weapons? Response: I just answered most of this above, Cornel. America now sets the standard. Whether you think it is single or double is up to you. Help your country become a superpower and then challenge the US if you can. It is justified because a superpower is using its power to spread freedom and democracy, now and into the future. Do you have a problem with that, Cornel, given that you live in freedom and democracy yourself? Do you want to deny it to others? To call Israel a pariah country I'm afraid makes one an anti-Semite with no knowledge of the history of the region. If the Arabs had accepted Israel's right to exist in 1947, just as India accepted Pakistan's right to exist, the combination of Palestine and Israel would have been an island freedom and economic progress in the blighted middle-east, Cornel. If you know any Palestinians or Jews you know how smart, educated and hard-working they are. Unfortunately, the fact that all the Arab countries want to eliminate Israel, though Egypt and Jordan were forced to give this up, is
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## My comments are shown below under Responses: --- Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Santosh, Since you seem so upset that Saddam has been removed by the evil George Bush, you must think he was a great guy and you must therefore also be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. Santosh: This is a pathetic attempt by Mario Goveia to smear someone who disagrees with him. Response: Santosh, I have no intentions of smearing you, just debating the issues, but if the shoe fits I'm afraid I must ask you to wear it. You cannot on the one hand mount a vicious and relentless attack on the liberation of a country that has been brutalized by dictator, has never known freedom and democracy, has pre-emptively attacked two of its neighbors, has been looted to the tune of an estimated US$21 BILLION by the dictator and countries like France, Russia and China, has paid bounties to the families of suicide bombers against innocent Israeli civilians, and thumbed its nose at the world community you so revere from the safety of a democracy that you seem to take for granted, and then yell Bloody murder! when someone wonders why. You seem to be one of those people who is too intelligent by half. Santosh: Another sorry effort by Mr. Goveia at ridiculing someone whom he does not know. Response: Not knowing you makes me more objective, don't you think? I am going strictly by what you say and how you say it. See if you can follow this simple sequential logic: Here Mr. Goveia appears to be very sure of his command over logic, and is preparing for another put down. 1. Before 1991 there was evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Just ask the Iranis, Kurds and Shia that these were used on. Santosh: Hearsay does not constitute objective physical evidence. Hearsay of the Chalabi variety is even worse. Response: Here is a classic example of why I think you are a huge supporter of Saddam Hussein. If you don't know that Iraq used WMDs against Iran, the Kurds at Halabja (5,000 innocent civilians dead in one day)and the Marsh Shia in the Tigris-Euphrates delta then you need to do some research and PLEASE stop embarrassing yourself. 3. From 1991 to 2003 the UN Security Council passed 17 resolutions asking for the accounting that Saddam never provided, even though the consequence of the first 16 were crippling sanctions and of the 17th was the loss of his dictatorship and his sadistic sons. 4. Physics tells us that matter does not disappear. It has to be accounted for. Santosh: There is no logical connection between the above two statements. Response: Yes there is. If Saddam had really destroyed his WMDs as he had agreed to do, he would have been able to show the UN inspectors that he had done so, and the UN resolutions would have been complied with and the crippling UN sanctions for not complying would have been removed and everyone in the Baath party could have lived happily ever after, but not the Kurds and the Shia that make up about 75% of Iraq. 5. The coalition has not found the WMDs as yet. Santosh: It is wellknown that weapons inspectors destroyed a lot (all, according to some) of these weapons in the 90s, and many respected inspectors have concluded after examining actual physical evidence that it is highly unlikely that there were any WMDs at the time that this war began. But Mr. Goveia conveniently ignores or hides these facts from us. Response: No, I don't. Yes the UN inspectors destroyed some that they found. Everyone knows that so I did not think it was necessary to repeat this. However, what is your explanation for the repeated UN resolutions, 16 over 12 years since 1991 that threatened economic sanctions, and the 17th in early 2003 threatening serious consequences not just more sanctions? These were UN Security Council sanctions, Santosh, starting way before George Bush came to office. Don't you think the UN knew what its own inspectors had destroyed and what had not been accounted for? 6. Ipso facto, the WMDs cannot have disappeared, Santosh: Caveat emptor! They could have been destroyed by the inspectors in the 90's, and the
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Mario, These are sincere queries and I am definitely not trying to trip you, nor trying to be personal nor clever. The USA has Weapons of Mass Destruction--indeed, more than the rest of the world put together and the ability to exterminate life, as we know it, on this planet. What therefore justifies the USA to demand that other countries give up their WMDs when its own weapons are never on the agenda in this debate at all? Likewise, what gives the US and nuclear powers like Britain and Israel the right to demand that Iran should not develop a nuclear arsenal to protect itself from the existing nuclear powers? Why the double standards and hypocrisy? What justifies the USA to be the arbiter of who does (especially the pariah state of Israel at the heart of the Middle East), and does not have nuclear weapons? Please do not get me wrong. I am opposed to nuclear arms totally but should not those countries which developed them and have a head-start, minimally and progressively reduce their stockpiles in good faith before making demands on others? Just curious, Cornel PS I agree with you that weapons do not just disappear. In the most recent case in Iraq, some forty truck loads of weapons were quietly whisked away while they were under the noses of USA security control. Those who had argued that the illegal invasion of Iraq by the motley Coalition Forces would exacerbate terror through the dissemination of weapons in Iraq were surely right, and surely too, that a brutal war against the Iraqi people was unnecessary to get rid of Sadaam, formerly, the blue eyed boy of the USA! There were cleverer ways to do so, if justified and required, but perhaps beyond USA intelligence capability which also led to the 'success' of Bin Laden on the twin towers.
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Santosh, Since you seem so upset that Saddam has been removed by the evil George Bush, you must think he was a great guy and you must therefore also be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. This is a pathetic attempt by Mario Goveia to smear someone who disagrees with him. You seem to be one of those people who is too intelligent by half. Another sorry effort by Mr. Goveia at ridiculing someone whom he does not know. See if you can follow this simple sequential logic: Here Mr. Goveia appears to be very sure of his command over logic, and is preparing for another put down. 1. Before 1991 there was evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Just ask the Iranis, Kurds and Shia that these were used on. Hearsay does not constitute objective physical evidence. Hearsay of the Chalabi variety is even worse. 3. From 1991 to 2003 the UN Security Council passed 17 resolutions asking for the accounting that Saddam never provided, even though the consequence of the first 16 were crippling sanctions and of the 17th was the loss of his dictatorship and his sadistic sons. 4. Physics tells us that matter does not disappear. It has to be accounted for. There is no logical connection between the above two statements. 5. The coalition has not found the WMDs as yet. It is wellknown that weapons inspectors destroyed a lot (all, according to some) of these weapons in the 90s, and many respected inspectors have concluded after examining actual physical evidence that it is highly unlikely that there were any WMDs at the time that this war began. But Mr. Goveia conveniently ignores or hides these facts from us. 6. Ipso facto, the WMDs cannot have disappeared, Caveat emptor! They could have been destroyed by the inspectors in the 90's, and the accounting could have been inflated. Or Chalabi could have lied. Or the other Shia, Kurds and Iranians could have been mistaken, or they could have lied, as well. The U.S. administration certainly lied about the alluminum tubes, the Niger yellow cake, the unmanned balsa wood planes that could cross the Atlantic with nuclear missiles, the chemical weapons producing carnival floats, etc, etc. they have not been accounted for, they have not been found as yet, so they must be either still hidden somewhere in Iraq, or in Syria as suspected. Looks like logic morphed into fantasy here. No doubt freedom and democracy would soon be showered upon Syria based on this sound logic. The rest of Mr. Goveia's post is an attempt to draw his detractors into an extraneous argument. As far as I am concerned, Mr. Goveia's argument for WMDs in Iraq is utterly illogical and factually unsound. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## See my comments below under Responses. By the way, since you are such a staunch defender of Saddam Hussein, you must have thought he and his sadistic sons were great guys, and you must really be opposed to freedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. --- Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The evidence is Saddam's acknowledgement in the 1991 ceasefire agreement of 1991 that he had WMDS, his previous use of these against Iran, the Kurds and Marsh Shia, and the fact that the stockpile have never been accounted for. If you remember your physics you know that matter cannot disappear. It is up to you, if you even understand what I have just listed, to explain what happened to the WMDs. I think they are either still hidden or moved to Syria. Tariq: As with all Republicans, you continue to shift the goalpost. What you talk about was not the basis for the invasion of Iraq. http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/25/sprj.nirq.kay/ Its quite ironic to note that the Iraqis were actually telling the truth. Something that you cannot do. Response: I am not shifting any goalpost. The legal basis for the regime change in Iraq was UN resolution 1441. Read it sometime. If you are too lazy to do the research you will continue to be uninformed and continue to embarrass yourself. I gave you the source. You look up the findings. Tariq: That is because I did the research and could not find anything remotely connected to what you claimed. As I said, please quote the pages Response: Nice try, but you have not done any research as your comments prove. If you have done the research then show how the 36 or so falsehoods listed and debunked on www.farenheit_fact.blogspot.com are really correct. It is your attempt to twist the truth that pisses me off. The Media Fund ads specifically said that the Bush administration sent a plane to pick up all the Bin Laden family members and specifically said they were flown out of the US BEFORE the embargo was lifted. Tariq: No they did not. Now please get pissed off even more. Response: Yes, they did, and we have an audio tape of the ad to prove it. Unlike you we do the research. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
Santosh, Since you seem so upset that Saddam has been removed by the evil George Bush, you mustthink he was a great guy andyou must therefore also beopposed tofreedom and democracy for the Iraqi people. You seem to be one of thosepeople who is toointelligent by half. See if you can follow this simple sequential logic: 1. Before 1991 there was evidence of WMDs in Iraq. Just ask the Iranis, Kurds and Shia that these were used on. 2. In 1991 there was evidence of WMDs, because the UN has a signed agreement by Saddam acknowledging his WMDs and promising to destroy these and provide the UN with an accounting. 3. From 1991 to 2003 the UN Security Council passed 17 resolutions asking for the accounting that Saddam never provided, even though the consequence of the first 16 were crippling sanctions and of the 17th was the loss of his dictatorship and his sadistic sons. 4. Physics tells us that matter does not disappear. It has to be accounted for. 5. The coalition has not found the WMDs as yet. 6. Ipso facto, the WMDs cannot have disappeared, they have not been accounted for, they have not been found as yet, so they must beeither still hidden somewhere in Iraq, or in Syria as suspected. Samjha, na? Alternatively,Saddam was as smart as some of his supporters who shall remain nameless, and destroyed the WMDs but refused to disclose this to the UN and put his country through crippling economic sanctions for 12 years when thousands died from a lack of food and medicines,and finally lost everything he had, just for the heck of it. Hey,maybe you also think that the US$21 billion (that's billion with a b) of money lootedthrough the oil-for-food program by Saddam, aided and abetted by France, Russia and China, and currently being investigated by the UN and others, is also a fiction of George Bush's imagination. Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ### If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others ###--- Mario Goveia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:If you remember your physics you know that mattercannot disappear. It is up to you, if you evenunderstand what I have just listed, to explain whathappened to the WMDs. I think they are either stillhidden or moved to Syria. Physics - indeed, all of science - teaches us that weneed to rely on physical evidence alone, and notsomeone's thoughts, beliefs, ideology or fantasies. There is no physical evidence for the presence ofweapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The Iraq war isbased on a lie. If there were any fairness and justicein this world, those responsible for this war wouldhave been tried for war crimes along with SaddamHussein. Alas, we are not so fortunate. Cheers,Santosh
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you remember your physics you know that matter cannot disappear. It is up to you, if you even understand what I have just listed, to explain what happened to the WMDs. I think they are either still hidden or moved to Syria. Physics - indeed, all of science - teaches us that we need to rely on physical evidence alone, and not someone's thoughts, beliefs, ideology or fantasies. There is no physical evidence for the presence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The Iraq war is based on a lie. If there were any fairness and justice in this world, those responsible for this war would have been tried for war crimes along with Saddam Hussein. Alas, we are not so fortunate. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## See my detailed and specific point-by-point responses below: --- Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am on vacation right now so I don't have all the details. However, I remember some: 1. Iraq had no WMDs. All we know is that no stockpiles were found in Iraq. We do NOT have an accounting of the stockpiles Saddam admitted having in the ceasefire agreement of 1991. This is what the 17 UN resolutions over 12 years since 1991 were all about, culminating with UN resolution 1441. Look it up and see what it says. Tariq: Perhaps the person who needs to do some looking up is you. Until you can provide some evidence of WMDs, found after March 2003, it is you who is lying, not Michael Moore. Response: The evidence is Saddam's acknowledgement in the 1991 ceasefire agreement of 1991 that he had WMDS, his previous use of these against Iran, the Kurds and Marsh Shia, and the fact that the stockpile have never been accounted for. If you remember your physics you know that matter cannot disappear. It is up to you, if you even understand what I have just listed, to explain what happened to the WMDs. I think they are either still hidden or moved to Syria. 2. Saddam had no links with al Qaeda. The 9/11 Commission report documented many close links. However, they did not find that Saddam had a hand in 9/11. Go to www.senate.gov and read the 9/11 Commission report. Tariq: Please quote from the document the exact words. You are the one who is making the accusation of lies. Please show us the evidence. Response: If you are too lazy to do the research you will continue to be uninformed and continue to embarrass yourself. I gave you the source. You look up the findings. 3. During the recent election The Media Fund was running radio ads claiming that the Bush administration rounded up the Bin Laden family after 9/11 and flew them out of the country during the flight embargo so they could not be interrogated. This was being said in spite of the 9/11 Commission finding several months ago that these family members had been investigated by the FBI, had no ties to Bin Laden, and were flown out for their protection after the embargo was lifted. Tariq: The ads did not say what you say above. The ads said that the Bush administration allowed the Bin Ladens to leave. That is factually correct. What you are pissed about is the typical Republican ambiguity being used by the Democrats. Response: It is your attempt to twist the truth that pisses me off. The Media Fund ads specifically said that the Bush administration sent a plane to pick up all the Bin Laden family members and specifically said they were flown out of the US BEFORE the embargo was lifted. 4. There is a whole internet industry that has developed to debunk Michael Moore's lies. One URL that has documented over 35 deliberate distortions and falsehoods is www.farenheit_fact.blogspot.com, complete with sources and footnotes. There are several others listed on www.moorelies.com Tariq: So is that why no credible media outlet has published any of this? The problem you face is that you refuse to see the other side of the story and prefer to be fed on a steady diet of Fox News. Response: Again you are being lazy. I have given you a source that gets its credibility from all the footnotes and sources of information that they have used. Why don't you check these out yourself if you are really interested in the truth? I have done so. Many credible media sources in addition to Fox News have reported on these falsehoods. You just don't want to know the truth. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am on vacation right now so I don't have all the details. However, I remember some: 1. Iraq had no WMDs. All we know is that no stockpiles were found in Iraq. We do NOT have an accounting of the stockpiles Saddam admitted having in the ceasefire agreement of 1991. This is what the 17 UN resolutions over 12 years since 1991 were all about, culminating with UN resolution 1441. Look it up and see what it says. Perhaps the person who needs to do some looking up is you. Until you can provide some evidence of WMDs, found after March 2003, it is you who is lying, not Michael Moore. 2. Saddam had no links with al Qaeda. The 9/11 Commission report documented many close links. However, they did not find that Saddam had a hand in 9/11. Go to www.senate.gov and read the 9/11 Commission report. Please quote from the document the exact words. You are the one who is making the accusation of lies. Please show us the evidence. 3. During the recent election The Media Fund was running radio ads claiming that the Bush administration rounded up the Bin Laden family after 9/11 and flew them out of the country during the flight embargo so they could not be interrogated. This was being said in spite of the 9/11 Commission finding several months ago that these family members had been investigated by the FBI, had no ties to Bin Laden, and were flown out for their protection after the embargo was lifted. The ads did not say what you say above. The ads said that the Bush administration allowed the Bin Ladens to leave. That is factually correct. What you are pissed about is the typical Republican ambiguity being used by the Democrats. 4. There is a whole internet industry that has developed to debunk Michael Moore's lies. One URL that has documented over 35 deliberate distortions and falsehoods is www.farenheit_fact.blogspot.com, complete with sources and footnotes. There are several others listed on www.moorelies.com So is that why no credible media outlet has published any of this? The problem you face is that you refuse to see the other side of the story and prefer to be fed on a steady diet of Fox News. -Tariq __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com
[Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## We weep for every one of our heroes, especially because they VOLUNTEERED to shed their blood to liberate others. This has always been America's contribution to world peace, throughout history. They instinctively understand that freedom is not free, which most others take for granted. So, please don't shed crocodile tears for our 1,200 heroes in Iraq unless you did the same for the well over a million Iraqis, Iranis and Kuwaitis that Saddam Hussein was responsible for killing. Our heroes have liberated 50 million Afghans and Iraqis, and Libya, where their leader was considered even worse than Saddam, has decided to join the civilized world. It took 4 to 7 years to pacify and democratize Japan and Germany and our troops protect them to this day. I always wonder whether there is some subliminal racism in play when people want to deny Muslims the same freedom and democracy that every one of us enjoys. Seb dc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't know about the world dodging... but the thousand souls, that died earlier did weep on this day and for the ones joining them from present day Iraq. Really sad!
[Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## I am on vacation right now so I don't have all the details. However, I remember some: 1. Iraq had no WMDs. All we know is that no stockpiles were found in Iraq. We do NOT have an accounting of the stockpiles Saddam admitted having in the ceasefire agreement of 1991. This is what the 17 UN resolutions over 12 years since 1991 were all about, culminating with UN resolution 1441. Look it up and see what it says. 2. Saddam had no links with al Qaeda. The 9/11 Commission report documented many close links. However, they did not find that Saddam had a hand in 9/11. Go to www.senate.gov and read the 9/11 Commission report. 3. During the recent election The Media Fund was running radio ads claiming that the Bush administration rounded up the Bin Laden family after 9/11 and flew them out of the country during the flight embargo so they could not be interrogated. This was being said in spite of the 9/11 Commission finding several months ago that these family members had been investigated by the FBI, had no ties to Bin Laden, and were flown out for their protection after the embargo was lifted. 4. There is a whole internet industry that has developed to debunk Michael Moore's lies. One URL that has documented over 35 deliberate distortions and falsehoods is www.farenheit_fact.blogspot.com, complete with sources and footnotes. There are several others listed on www.moorelies.com Tariq Siddiqui [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am still waiting to hear what are the deliberate falsehoods being talked about here. Please clarify with examples. -Tariq
[Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## They like to think of themselves as more educated an progressive, which is why the Democrats chose a supercilious candidate like John Kerry, and they will continue to lose elections. If you look at the electoral map BY COUNTY you will see that it's NOT red states versus blue states but major urban centers versus everyone else. So maybe it will be a win-win situation. We don't need people with such attitudes and Canada will get people who think of themselves as more educated and progressive. Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mario, Those pushing for Canada to accept the Americans from Blue states, ALWAYS point out that these Americans are the more educated and progressive components of the US population. Mervyn2.0
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Don't know about the world dodging... but the thousand souls, that died earlier did weep on this day and for the ones joining them from present day Iraq. Really sad!
[Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2 - Fair elections?
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Santosh Helekar wrote... Even though I thought initially that this was an election that was legitimately won by Bush, it now appears that there is growing doubt about the voting procedures and the actual vote counts. Santosh, I saw the article below on another d-list. Regards, George Was the Ohio Election Honest and Fair? Excerpts From: Institute for Public Accuracy 915 National Press Building, Washington, D.C. 20045 (202) 347-0020 * http://www.accuracy.org * [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ TERESA FEDOR, [via Greg Lestini, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ohio State Senator Teresa Fedor said today: There was trouble with our elections in Ohio at every stage. It's been a battle getting people registered to vote, getting to the ballot on voting day and getting that vote to count. There is a pattern of voter suppression; that's why I called for [Ohio Secretary of State] Blackwell's resignation more than a month ago. Blackwell, while claiming to run an unbiased elections process, was also the co-chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign in Ohio. Additionally, he was the spokesperson for the anti-business, anti-family constitutional amendment 'Issue 1,' and a failed initiative to repeal a crucial sales-tax revenue source for the state. Blackwell learned his moves from the Katherine Harris playbook of Florida 2000, and we won't stand for it. BILL MOSS, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Executive vice president of HBCU Connect, which works to connect historically black colleges and universities, Moss said today: I stayed in line two and a half hours. I've never seen anything like this in my life. There were fewer voting machines in the highly concentrated black areas, creating the long lines so as to frustrate the voters. But we knew the Republicans -- many of whom became Republicans because they opposed equal rights for blacks -- would try to drive down black turnout. ... [Ohio Secretary of State] Blackwell was confusing things by raising issues like the paper weight of cards. SUSAN TRUITT, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.caseohio.org Co-founder of the Citizens Alliance for Secure Elections, Truitt said today: Seven counties in Ohio have electronic voting machines and none of them have paper trails. That alone raises issues of accuracy and integrity as to how we can verify the count. A recount without a paper trail is meaningless; you just get a regurgitation of the data. Last year, Blackwell tried to get the entire state to buy new machines without a paper trail. The exit polls, virtually the only check we have against tampering with a vote without a paper trail, had shown Kerry with a lead. ... A poll worker told me this morning that there were no tapes of the results posted on some machines; on other machines the posted count was zero, which obviously shouldn't be the case. DAN WALLACH, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.cs.rice.edu/~dwallach, http://www.accuracy.org/press_releases/PR062104.htm Wallach is an assistant professor of Computer Science at Rice University in Houston specializing in building secure and robust software systems for the Internet. Along with colleagues at Johns Hopkins, Wallach co-authored a groundbreaking study that revealed significant flaws in electronic voting systems. He appeared on an Institute for Public Accuracy news release in June entitled Electronic Voting -- Danger for Democracy. BOB FITRAKIS, [EMAIL PROTECTED] An attorney who monitored the election with the Election Protection Coalition, Fitrakis said today: There were far fewer machines in the inner-city districts than in the suburbs. I documented at least a dozen people leaving because the lines were so long in African-American areas. Blackwell did a great deal of suppressing before the election -- like attempting to refuse to process voter registration forms. The absentee ballots were misleading in Franklin County. Kerry was the third line down, but you had to punch number four to vote for him. Bush was getting both his votes as well as Kerry's. HARVEY WASSERMAN, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/810 Senior editor of FreePress.org, an Ohio-based web site, and co-author with Fitrakis of the recent article Twelve Ways Bush is Now Stealing the Ohio Vote, Wasserman said today: There was a huge fight around ensuring that the electronic voting machines had paper trails and there was resistance by the secretary of state, so there is no paper trail. There were some victories to ensure a paper trial -- by 2006. There were limited numbers of voting machines in
[Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please show me a web site that denies that President Bush won 3,000 out of the 3,500 counties in the US on November 2. Evidence Mounts that the Vote Was Hacked By Thom Hartmann CommonDreams.org Saturday 06 November 2004 When I spoke with Jeff Fisher this morning (Saturday, November 06, 2004), the Democratic candidate for the U.S. House of Representatives from Florida's 16th District said he was waiting for the FBI to show up. Fisher has evidence, he says, not only that the Florida election was hacked, but of who hacked it and how. And not just this year, he said, but that these same people had previously hacked the Democratic primary race in 2002 so that Jeb Bush would not have to run against Janet Reno, who presented a real threat to Jeb, but instead against Bill McBride, who Jeb beat. It was practice for a national effort, Fisher told me. And some believe evidence is accumulating that the national effort happened on November 2, 2004. The State of Florida, for example, publishes a county-by-county record of votes cast and people registered to vote by party affiliation. Net denizen Kathy Dopp compiled the official state information into a table, available at http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm, and noticed something startling. While the heavily scrutinized touch-screen voting machines seemed to produce results in which the registered Democrat/Republican ratios largely matched the Kerry/Bush vote, in Florida's counties using results from optically scanned paper ballots - fed into a central tabulator PC and thus vulnerable to hacking - the results seem to contain substantial anomalies. In Baker County, for example, with 12,887 registered voters, 69.3% of them Democrats and 24.3% of them Republicans, the vote was only 2,180 for Kerry and 7,738 for Bush, the opposite of what is seen everywhere else in the country where registered Democrats largely voted for Kerry. In Dixie County, with 4,988 registered voters, 77.5% of them Democrats and a mere 15% registered as Republicans, only 1,959 people voted for Kerry, but 4,433 voted for Bush. The pattern repeats over and over again - but only in the counties where optical scanners were used. Franklin County, 77.3% registered Democrats, went 58.5% for Bush. Holmes County, 72.7% registered Democrats, went 77.25% for Bush. Yet in the touch-screen counties, where investigators may have been more vigorously looking for such anomalies, high percentages of registered Democrats generally equaled high percentages of votes for Kerry. (I had earlier reported that county size was a variable - this turns out not to be the case. Just the use of touch-screens versus optical scanners.) More visual analysis of the results can be seen at http://ustogether.org/election04/FloridaDataStats.htm, and www.rubberbug.com/temp/Florida2004chart.htm. Note the trend line - the only variable that determines a swing toward Bush was the use of optical scan machines. One possible explanation for this is the Dixiecrat theory, that in Florida white voters (particularly the rural ones) have been registered as Democrats for years, but voting Republican since Reagan. Looking at the 2000 statistics, also available on Dopp's site, there are similar anomalies, although the trends are not as strong as in 2004. But some suggest the 2000 election may have been questionable in Florida, too. One of the people involved in Dopp's analysis noted that it may be possible to determine the validity of the rural Democrat theory by comparing Florida's white rural counties to those of Pennsylvania, another swing state but one that went for Kerry, as the exit polls there predicted. Interestingly, the Pennsylvania analysis, available at http://ustogether.org/election04/PA_vote_patt.htm, doesn't show the same kind of swings as does Florida, lending credence to the possibility of problems in Florida. Even more significantly, Dopp had first run the analysis while filtering out smaller (rural) counties, and still found that the only variable that accounted for a swing toward Republican voting was the use of optical-scan machines, whereas counties with touch-screen machines generally didn't swing - regardless of size. Others offer similar insights, based on other data. A professor at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, noted that in Florida the vote to raise the minimum wage was approved by 72%, although Kerry got 48%. The correlation between voting for the minimum wage increase and voting for Kerry isn't
Re: [Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## Hey, George, 1. Get a grip, man. Your brilliant observation that George Bush received more NO votes than any president in history is absolutely correct, but it is also meaningless to any sensible debate, because Bush still WON. Don't you GET IT? The Republicans also INCREASED their leads in the House, the Senate and the Governorships. Can you send me a web site that denies these facts? 2. I don't know about the pigs, but you seem to be flying already. 3. Since you seem to have a problem understanding what is being said, I did not ask you to believe anything Sean Hannity has said. This would be a waste of time because you probably believe everything Michael Moore says. However, his web site, www.hannity.com, as well as several others, has a map showing who won all the counties in the country. It was this map that I was drawing your attention to. Please show me a web site that denies that President Bush won 3,000 out of the 3,500 counties in the US on November 2. The bottom line is that the US, India and the world, dodged a bullet on November 2. George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/ # # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia wrote: Democrat hero, Bill Clinton, could never manage higher than 49% of the vote. George Bush received more NO votes than any President in history - over 55 million. He has a 51% mandate. I predict that Bush will now reach out to the Democrats. Based on the above fantasy, I predict pigs will fly soon. please take a look at www.hannity.com among other sources. Please ignore the radical right-wing gang if you are interested in truth. For the lies, half-truths, distortions of Sean Hannity, see the following links (I already provided some links for Rush and O'Reilly previously): http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVFb=91585 http://tvnewslies.org/html/sean_hannity.html http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Hannity_%26_Colmes http://www.the-hamster.com/mtype/archives/2004/06/whole_bunch_o_s.html Regards, George
[Goanet]Re: The world dodged a bullet on Nov. 2
## # If Goanet stops reaching you, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] # # Want to check the archives? http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/# # Please keep your discussion/tone polite, to reflect respect to others # ## --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Democrat hero, Bill Clinton, could never manage higher than 49% of the vote. George Bush received more NO votes than any President in history - over 55 million. He has a 51% mandate. I predict that Bush will now reach out to the Democrats. Based on the above fantasy, I predict pigs will fly soon. please take a look at www.hannity.com among other sources. Please ignore the radical right-wing gang if you are interested in truth. For the lies, half-truths, distortions of Sean Hannity, see the following links (I already provided some links for Rush and O'Reilly previously): http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVFb=91585 http://tvnewslies.org/html/sean_hannity.html http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Hannity_%26_Colmes http://www.the-hamster.com/mtype/archives/2004/06/whole_bunch_o_s.html Regards, George
