Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
--- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The issue is how does society prevent the abuse of a good thing? And how do we (society or govt.) address important issues rather that create short- term and short-sighted solutions to more fundamental problems. Mario observes: Before we get to the government or private busybodies, the fundamental issue is who gets to decide what is a good thing for everyone else? For example, in the free world, in Scandinavia and France it is mostly the national government, in the US it is mostly the people through their state and local governments, with other countries somewhere in between. Gilbert writes: Here are some thoughts: 1. Should Social Security for Seniors relieve the children from being primarily responsible for the well-being of their parents? It should not. But yet is does all too often. This includes the Senior Citizens not wanting to be dependent on their children. Mario observes: Who gets to decide for everyone else whether Senior Citizens should be financially independent or dependent on their children? Social Security in the US was instituted by political liberals and even they did not originally intend it to be the sole source of income for retired Seniors. Social Security in the US has evolved into a pure welfare program supposedly funded by it's own with-holding tax. In fact it is literally a giant Ponzi scheme, not a genuine retirement program that would be managed like a pension plan. If it were most working Americans would retire rich. If a private corporation had a retirement plan designed like the Social Security system for it's employees the government would lock up the CEO and throw away the key. Gilbert writes: 2. The issue of Dubai Ports Deal was a security issue. Yet security is the responsibility of the Govt. / Coast Guard and not of a private company - American or foreign. The intellectual issue here is: Why are there no American companies competing for the tender to manage and operate the ports? Mario replies: While the government is responsible for security the US government routinely hires private companies, including foreign ones, to perform various functions, including security. Did you know that there are several major ports in California that are managed by Chinese companies, including the port security? The political issue with Dubai Ports was that, while Dubai is an ally of the US the government of Dubai also provides some funds to terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. Gilbert writes: 3. The illegal immigration discussion is also miss-directed. Why are the world economists (who were in favor of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to come up with innovative plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in their native land? It is my understanding that the major cause for sharply rising unemployment in Mexico is the undermining of their agriculture with import of cheap corn and other agricultural products. It is like the USA on manufactured products! Its good if it is cheap, but bad if it creates unemployment. Unfortunately neither the academics nor the major and multi-national corporations have stepped to the plate to develop innovative solutions to these worldwide problems. Mario replies: The economic mess in Mexico is primarily the responsibility of the Mexican government. Academics, who have no personal stake, and multi-national corporations, whose primary loyalty is to their stockholders, are not the ones best suited to provide innovative solutions for any country, though they may contribute ideas to the people's elected representatives. Mexico has immense natural resources like a moderate climate, large oil reserves, fertile agricultural lands, a canyon five times bigger than the Grand Canyon and two large semi-tropical coastlines ideal for tourism. Yet, due to misguided economic policies, lawlessness and monumental corruption it has been mired in poverty. Gilbert writes: 4. In economic terms, is not human labor and talent (including brain power) to some extent a resource - and thus an exportable / renewable commodity? So in a free trade system, why / how would one restrict human movement across boundaries be it in Goa or USA, EU, Canada or Australia? Population migration is a NATURAL PHENOMENON and has occurred since the time Man first migrated out of Africa 100,000 years ago. Mario replies: As we have discussed, free trade systems are never theoretically pure in absolute terms in the modern world due to political realities and national sovereignties, and more recently, national security, especially when it comes to human movement across national borders. The world was a far different place when Man first migrated out of Africa! Official guest worker programs are the next best thing to humans just traipsing across national borders to and from wherever they are needed.
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
Dear Cornel, With all due respect (of which I have ample for you), the analogy is a spurious one and undeserving of Gilbert's post. The US is grappling with an immigration problem and there is much debate about this. There are an estimated 20 million illegal immigrants from Latin America currently in the US. This is almost the population of an European country. I am not liberal enough to believe that such illegality should be pardoned by way of amnesty, nor am I Republican enough to believe that they provide much needed labour in America, to do the jobs Americans won't do. Unmitigated mass migration of people impacts the socioeconomics of the society they infringe upon, be it in Goa or be in America. While I am all for regulated immigration, having been a second-generation beneficiary of it, I am not at all for illegal migration. And fellow posters, please don't write to me about how migration into Goa is not illegal. That is another post altogether. Elisabeth --- cornel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gilbert Just one small point re your Why are the world economists (who were in favour of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to come up with innovative plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in their native land? Could the same have been said about Indian doctors who rushed to migrate to the USA? Just asking? Cornel __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
Hi Gilbert Just one small point re your Why are the world economists (who were in favour of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to come up with innovative plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in their native land? Could the same have been said about Indian doctors who rushed to migrate to the USA? Just asking? Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:09 PM Subject: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty The Goa importing poverty thread evolved in a very enlightening and civil manner into market economies. I thank both Elizabeth and Mario for keeping it intellectual. Yet both (and the rest of us) would agree that anything good (policies, regulations, laws) left to itself and taken to its extreme by vested interest is bad. The issue is how does society prevent the abuse of a good thing? And how do we (society or govt.) address important issues rather that create short-term and short-sighted solutions to more fundamental problems. Here are some thoughts: 3. The illegal immigration discussion is also miss-directed. Why are the world economists (who were in favor of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to come up with innovative plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in their native land? 4. In economic terms, is not human labor and talent (including brain power) to some extent a resource - and thus an exportable / renewable commodity? So in a free trade system, why / how would one restrict human movement across boundaries be it in Goa or USA, EU, Canada or Australia? _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
Dear Gilbert, This is a good post but response to it maybe limited. I don't know how many Goans are based in the US on this forum and of those how many are closely following the immigration debate. I disagree with you about the Dubai Ports deal. It was not economics or security that kept that deal from taking place. It was good old fashioned prejudice and anti-Arab racism. Having grown up in Dubai, I know exactly how Dubai Arabs think. They detest fundamentalist groups and will have nothing to do with them. Unfortunately, today all Arabs and infact Muslims are lumped together in the US. There is no room or tolerance for nuance. Elisabeth -- --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Goa importing poverty thread evolved in a very enlightening and civil manner into market economies. I thank both Elizabeth and Mario for keeping it intellectual. Yet both (and the rest of us) would agree that anything good (policies, regulations, laws) left to itself and taken to its extreme by vested interest is bad. The issue is how does society prevent the abuse of a good thing? And how do we (society or govt.) address important issues rather that create short-term and short-sighted solutions to more fundamental problems. Here are some thoughts: 1. Should Social Security for Seniors relieve the children from being primarily responsible for the well-being of their parents? It should not. But yet is does all too often. This includes the Senior Citizens not wanting to be dependent on their children. 2. The issue of Dubai Ports Deal was a security issue. Yet security is the responsibility of the Govt. / Coast Guard and not of a private company - American or foreign. The intellectual issue here is: Why are there no American companies competing for the tender to manage and operate the ports? 3. The illegal immigration discussion is also miss-directed. Why are the world economists (who were in favor of WTO and NAFTA) not stepping forward to come up with innovative plans to create jobs in Mexico to keep the indigenous workforce in their native land? It is my understanding that the major cause for sharply rising unemployment in Mexico is the undermining of their agriculture with import of cheap corn and other agricultural products. It is like the USA on manufactured products! Its good if it is cheap, but bad if it creates unemployment. Unfortunately neither the academics nor the major and multi-national corporations have stepped to the plate to develop innovative solutions to these worldwide problems. 4. In economic terms, is not human labor and talent (including brain power) to some extent a resource - and thus an exportable / renewable commodity? So in a free trade system, why / how would one restrict human movement across boundaries be it in Goa or USA, EU, Canada or Australia? Population migration is a NATURAL PHENOMENON and has occurred since the time Man first migrated out of Africa 100,000 years ago. Kind Regards, GL _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Besides, doesn't a Commandment trump a Suggestion any day of the week? :-)) Mario, I don't believe that you have understood the difference between a commandment and a suggestion ;-) As an example, the atheists SUGGEST that one does not use the names of religious leaders as cuss words (I have yet to see an atheist do that.) On the other hand, there is a COMMANDMENT that prohibits using the Lord's name to cuss. Yet you have done exactly that Goanet. Another example I can give you is there is commandment that urges one to honour thy father and mother, yet you have gone and described yourself as a barbarian here :-( You have shown us quite clearly that you use suggestions to trump your knowledge of the commandments. Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
Dear Mervyn, I do not create disparities, I just report on them. To liken situations and drawn analogies to Nazi Germany is simplistic. Elisabeth - Elisabeth, While you have some great points in the above, I find it troubling that you feel any immigrant has cultural poverty. That sounds positively Hitlerish. If we don't address these issues now, what we will have is a sort of social apartheid. Two societies living in parallel worlds. And Goa is not immune to becoming just another Soweto. There will always be parallel societies in any community. In Toronto for example where a child has to attend the school nearest his/her residence, some kids arrive at school hungry and have nothing to eat the entire day. Other kids in the same class are grossly obese. Lastly, Soweto did not evolve into a black township. It was created just to keep black Africans from living/mixing with others. Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
--- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: Dear Mario, Your argument that there are economies in this world that follow the principles of laissez-faire in the absolute is bordering on the comical. Mario responds: I agree it would be comical if I that was actually my argument. For anyone to construe free market economies as pure laissez faire in today's world would be comical. Exceptions based on politics exist in every free market economy. The issue is what end of the spectrum - from ultra-soclalism at one end and laissez faire at the other - does an economy operate near, not any notion of theoretical purity. Can anyone seriously argue that the US is less free market than, say, France or Germany, India or China? Elisabeth writes: Even the US, with perhaps the most liberal economy has safe-guards in place that placate the conscience, social or otherwise. To mention a few, the minimum wage, tax relief and subsidies for agriculture (major WTO issue), tax relief for companies who outsource work overseas (a major bone of contention in the US), the recent ruckus over Dubai Ports Authority taking over the management of a few US Ports. Mario responds: In modern American political parlance, not classic terminology, the US economy, and those who have managed it for years can hardly be called liberal. The minimum wage is a liberal insertion that placates the conscience of left wingers while harming entry level or second-income employees. Tax relief is a mixed political bag to give tax incentives for certain politically powerful sectors of the economy. There is no special tax relief for companies that outsource. BTW, insourcing is creating more jobs in the US than those lost to outsourcing. The Dubai Ports deal had to do entirely with security concerns, not economics. Elisabeth writes: Come on Mario, everything in life is regulated, if not by brute force, as in a command economy, than certainly by sheer dint of political connivance, as in a free-market economy. Mario responds: Not true. Small businesses account for over 80% of the jobs in the US, with nary a real command regulator to be heard from. I have explained above that exceptions due to political realities do not change the basic rule as to what end of the spectrum a strong economy like the US', as well as other strong economies, are closer to. Elisabeth writes: Incidentally, there is nothing incompatible about being a proponent of a free-market economy with a social conscience, just as there is nothing incongruous about being an atheiest or agnostic with a moral compass. Mario responds: A social conscience is a good thing. Every successful company in a free market that does not have one fails sooner rather than later. We call it enlightened self interest. The question in economics, relative to your long lists of insistences in a prior post, is who gets to decide the major details of policies affecting the allocation of labor and material. The old Soviet Union and the old China and the old India did it from the top down and the havoc is there for all to see. Most of the countries south of the US have natural resources and potential tourist assets equal to the US, but are mired in various levels of poverty due to inefficient socialist economic policies. The US does it mostly from the bottom up, more so than any other major country, and has consequently been an superpower for decades. Is this even debatable? While there may be nothing incongrous about an atheist or agnostic with a strongly self imposed Seven Suggestions moral compass, there are no societal checks and balances, standards or consequences, other than the law, for the individual unorganized atheist or agnostic. Am I wrong? Besides, doesn't a Commandment trump a Suggestion any day of the week? :-)) _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- Elisabeth Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Mario, I didn't want to embark on a US related topic since I understand that they are banned on Goanet but I was curious to know which side of that debate you fall on. Mario replies: Elisabeth, As you may or may not know, many Goanetters adamantly believe that the topics on Goanet should be narrowly restricted to Goa and Goa alone. However, as we see in the Da Vinci Code debate and the Timor Leste debate, we stumble into non-Goan topics by the back door. The decisions on what is off topic are uneven in my never humble opinion, and I had to really work hard to express that politely :-)) I believe that Goanet administrators should allow topics that are of interest to GOANS, many of whom do not live in Goa, and may have interests that go way beyond Goa. Readers who are not interested in those topics can ignore them, just as I can ignore topics that do not interest me. However, this logic has not prevailed at this time. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Your argument that there are economies in this world that follow the principles of laissez-faire in the absolute is bordering on the comical. Even the US, with perhaps the most liberal economy has safe-guards in place that placate the conscience, social or otherwise. To mention a few, the minimum wage, tax relief and subsidies for agriculture (major WTO issue), tax relief for companies who outsource work overseas (a major bone of contention in the US), the recent ruckus over Dubai Ports Authority taking over the management of a few US Ports. Come on Mario, everything in life is regulated, if not by brute force, as in a command economy, than certainly by sheer dint of political connivance, as in a free-market economy. Incidentally, there is nothing incompatible about being a proponent of a free-market economy with a social conscience, just as there is nothing incongruous about being an atheiest or agnostic with a moral compass. Elisabeth Mario writes: No need to argue. Just look at the record. The facts are there for all to see. India in economics, before liberalization, and after. China in economics, likewise. The old Soviet Union countries, before and after. The stagnant major European countries like France and Germany with social consciences. Practically all the African countries, which have their own version of a social conscience, except South Africa. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Elisabeth
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: I too am a free-market proponent and as such believe that micro-managing economies is an exercise in futility. However, we've learnt through history free-markets cannot be allowed to reign without a social conscience. If this persists, what we get are neo-feudal societies, where one group grows more powerful at the expense of another. Mario replies: Where did you get the notion that you were a free-market proponent? The However proves that you are not, by definition. Who gets to decide whose social conscience is the correct one? Is the notion of a social conscience a case of providing good intentions or producing good results? Free market economies provide more wealth for more people that any other alternative that has been tried. Elisabeth writes: We can argue the economics of this at length, and we won't arrive at any conclusion. Mario replies: No need to argue. Just look at the record. The facts are there for all to see. India in economics, before liberalization, and after. China in economics, likewise. The old Soviet Union countries, before and after. The stagnant major European countries like France and Germany with social consciences. Practically all the African countries, which have their own version of a social conscience, except South Africa. Elisabeth writes: I'd like to invite debate on the social impact of such mass migration. No doubt, it will change the demographics of Goa. Is such a change welcome? Is it accepted because there is nothing to be done. Mario responds: Again, who gets to decide whether freely induced mass migration desirable or not, or is welcome or not? Who gets to decide what, if anything, should be done about any social and economic changes taking place? We saw from Vivian's poignant personal experience, which is duplicated by every small business in Goa, that he would have either paid a huge price, or been unable to get his work done had he insisted in using Goan Konkani-speaking labor. Had he been a business he would have gone under. What kind of social conscience would want that across a whole state? Elisabeth writes: We have to learn lessons from Mumbai and Bangalore, where Marathas and Kannadigas are now in the minority, a small voice unheard in their own politics. Mumbai as we all know is a city drowning in urban poverty despite being the commercial capital of India. Mario observes: The lessons are what you choose to see. What's wrong with Marathas and Kannadigas being in the minority in Mumbai or Bangalore? Everyone who lives in Mumbai is there by choice. Drowning in poverty? With electrified jhopdis, refrigerators, TV sets, PC's, mobile phones. Poverty, compared to what? Elisabeth writes: Is this what we want for Goa? Or is there a way to systematically go about insisting on certain things; like proper housing for migrants instead of sprawling slums on communidade land, insist that they learn Konkanni as their language, insist that their children are schooled and not roaming the streets as beggars and urchins plying services for pedophiles, insist that the culture poverty that they bring with them is reconditioned. These are the hard questions for Goans living in Goa to answer. Mario replies: Elisabeth, with so many insists you have clearly answered my question above about who knows what's good for everyone else, even better than they do :-)) When you return to India, I suggest you run for a seat in the Goa government. What you have outlined above is the exact opposite of a free-market proponent who would insist that market forces, which means millions of buyers and sellers, each with their own enlightened self-interest and social conscience, freely exchanging goods and services at prices acceptable to them, get to decide, helped by freely elected governments maintaining the infrastructure, security and safety, and a fairly enforced legal system arbitrating disputes. Elisabeth writes: If we don't address these issues now, what we will have is a sort of social apartheid. Two societies living in parallel worlds. And Goa is not immune to becoming just another Soweto. Mario replies: Soweto was a by-product of a heinous and abominable system of institutionalized racism and discrimination. India has a secular population that could not even tolerate the BJP. India has already taken the first step in starting
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, I didn't want to embark on a US related topic since I understand that they are banned on Goanet but I was curious to know which side of that debate you fall on. Elisabeth - Mario observes: Elisabeth, What you have described above is the official or legal system in the US. However, the US is right now in the middle of a furious national debate on what to do about the approx. one million illegal immigrants every month that risk their very lives to sneak into the country to work and fill their empty bellies, leading to estimates of between 12 and 15 MILLION illegal immigrants that have accumulated in the US over the years, many using forged documents. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: 2. The US has a visa system, followed by the green card waiting period, that ensures that only specific category of people will enter the US and be allowed to work. There are other categories of visas that do not allow people to work because American labour is plentiful in those fields. Mario observes: Elisabeth, What you have described above is the official or legal system in the US. However, the US is right now in the middle of a furious national debate on what to do about the approx. one million illegal immigrants every month that risk their very lives to sneak into the country to work and fill their empty bellies, leading to estimates of between 12 and 15 MILLION illegal immigrants that have accumulated in the US over the years, many using forged documents. _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Elisabeth Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In countries such as Canada, the Gulf, Singapore, influx is carefully controlled both in terms of the quantity and quality that is taken in and steps are put in place not to disadvantage the indigenous population. Elisabeth, I guess my query was more in regard to the Canadian content of the last two lines in the above sentence. 1. Canada, Australia and New Zealand have a point system that monitors that just the right calibre of people get in. Let me give you a brief explanation how the Canadian point system works. Canada is a socialist country. It has a safety net system where the unemployed get free education, subsidized housing, cash, health and other generous benefits. If you do not qualify to migrate to Canada under the economic visa program, you have to qualify under the points system. Most immigrant applications score within a few points of qualifying for visa. That's the way the system is devised. In order to get those last few points, the potential immigrant has to get someone in Canada to sponsor him/her. The Canadian sponsor signs a bond agreeing to reimburse the govt for any monies the sponsored person claims in govt aid during the first ten years in Canada. As you can imagine, no Canadian resident will agree to sponsor his lazy bum or barbarian relative. This is one way to control the quality of immigrants without getting politicians involved. Mervyn3.0 PS. In the 1970's, Canadian recruiters were going to banks in E. Africa and asking the hard working Goan staff to migrate to Canada pointing out to the potential immigrants that they could benefit from three pensions i.e. a matching contributory, an employer and a govt pension. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty/response to Mario
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mario, Lest you think I have forgotten about your post. I had merely put it aside to respond at leisure :)) I too am a free-market proponent and as such believe that micro-managing economies is an exercise in futility. However, we've learnt through history free-markets cannot be allowed to reign without a social conscience. If this persists, what we get are neo-feudal societies, where one group grows more powerful at the expense of another. We can argue the economics of this at length, and we won't arrive at any conclusion. I'd like to invite debate on the social impact of such mass migration. No doubt, it will change the demographics of Goa. Is such a change welcome? Is it accepted because there is nothing to be done. We have to learn lessons from Mumbai and Bangalore, where Marathas and Kannadigas are now in the minority, a small voice unheard in their own politics. Mumbai as we all know is a city drowning in urban poverty despite being the commercial capital of India. Is this what we want for Goa? Or is there a way to systematically go about insisting on certain things; like proper housing for migrants instead of sprawling slums on communidade land, insist that they learn Konkanni as their language, insist that their children are schooled and not roaming the streets as beggars and urchins plying services for pedophiles, insist that the culture poverty that they bring with them is reconditioned. These are the hard questions for Goans living in Goa to answer. If we don't address these issues now, what we will have is a sort of social apartheid. Two societies living in parallel worlds. And Goa is not immune to becoming just another Soweto. Elisabeth When politicians and government bureaucrats make micro-economic supply and demand decisions it always makes matters worse, if not for the specific sector being helped, then certainly for the rest of the population, in terms of price levels and supply allocations, which then have a negative ripple effect on the entire local economy. No bureaucrat anywhere has found a way to efficiently allocate resources of either labor or material. Such extreme socialism is disappearing around the world after trying for decades, leaving extreme socialism only in dictatorships, in countries with God-given natural resources currently in demand, or in relatively small economies. Also, I don't think you can compare Goa, a state, with entire countries. Most, if not all, of the empty bellies you speak of are coming to Goa from other states in India. The conclusion has to be that business owners in Goa cannot find local Goans to do the same quantity and quality of work for the same wages, in spite of a natural preference for locals for reasons of language and communications, the lifeblood of a business. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Dear Mervyn3.0, 1. Canada, Australia and New Zealand have a point system that monitors that just the right calibre of people get in. 2. The US has a visa system, followed by the green card waiting period, that ensures that only specific category of people will enter the US and be allowed to work. There are other categories of visas that do not allow people to work because American labour is plentiful in those fields. 3. The Gulf and SE Asian countries all operate guest worker programmes manipulating quotas and visas depending on their requirements. They also have very active programmes in place that ensure indigenous population will be given preference over others in jobs. Elisabeth --- Elisabeth Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In countries such as Canada, the Gulf, Singapore, influx is carefully controlled both in terms of the quantity and quality that is taken in and steps are put in place not to disadvantage the indigenous population. Elisabeth, This one is truly strange. I have lived in Canada for a dozen years and have not heard of any rule that allows one set of people an advantage/disadvantage over another. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you are referring too? Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org) __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: Dear Mario, You've raised exactly the points that need to be discussed in context with this issue. There are many countries that encourage immigration. Canada, the Gulf countries, the EU (in part) and even the US and Australia in the 70s and 80s. This is because they need the actual numbers to make up the workforce. Mario observes: Elisabeth, Kudos for initiating these stimulating ideas. I have no problem with your concerns, your trenchant analysis, your provocative title or with your raising these important issues for discussion, only with the notion that the local government can, or even should, control the flow of labor into Goa or with what anyone should be paid. Their priority should be the security and safety of everyone living in or visiting Goa, Goan and non-Goan alike. BTW, the nagging notion among many Goans that Goa can somehow be protected from other Indians is likely to have about the same success as King Canute who tried and failed to stop the tide from coming in. That issue was determined in 1961 and has been accelerating since. When politicians and government bureaucrats make micro-economic supply and demand decisions it always makes matters worse, if not for the specific sector being helped, then certainly for the rest of the population, in terms of price levels and supply allocations, which then have a negative ripple effect on the entire local economy. No bureaucrat anywhere has found a way to efficiently allocate resources of either labor or material. Such extreme socialism is disappearing around the world after trying for decades, leaving extreme socialism only in dictatorships, in countries with God-given natural resources currently in demand, or in relatively small economies. Also, I don't think you can compare Goa, a state, with entire countries. Most, if not all, of the empty bellies you speak of are coming to Goa from other states in India. The conclusion has to be that business owners in Goa cannot find local Goans to do the same quantity and quality of work for the same wages, in spite of a natural preference for locals for reasons of language and communications, the lifeblood of a business. Besides, my impression is that educated and uneducated Goans alike are looking elsewhere for their employment. The next time you vist Goa I will introduce you to some people who have made their living in Goa for decades by starting and running fairly large businesses there using a combination of Goan and non-Goan labor. They will give to a real-life explanation of why they are hiring non-Goan labor and not holding out for an entirely Goan work force. Regarding zero unemployment, for many reasons based on economic principles, no country has found a way to reduce their unemployment to zero, even those actively importing workers from overseas. It has to do with varying abilities and training, unwillingness to moving to where the jobs are, unwillingness to do certain kinds of work, etc, etc. My advice to the Goan diaspora remains simple and practical and doable in part by almost everyone in the diaspora, Go to Goa as often as possible, patronize local businesses, buy some property, build a house, invest in or start a business, find out what that's like, pay and treat your domestic workers fairly, and let the economic ripple effect take it's course. While doing this, let the discussions based on ten opinions for every five Goans continue over a refreshing or intoxicating adult beverage - starting with home-made fenny and Belo Beer :-)) _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Elisabeth Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In countries such as Canada, the Gulf, Singapore, influx is carefully controlled both in terms of the quantity and quality that is taken in and steps are put in place not to disadvantage the indigenous population. Elisabeth, This one is truly strange. I have lived in Canada for a dozen years and have not heard of any rule that allows one set of people an advantage/disadvantage over another. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you are referring too? Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- From: Elisabeth Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:10:35 -0700 (PDT) You've raised exactly the points that need to be discussed in context with this issue. There are many countries that encourage immigration. Canada, the Gulf countries, the EU (in part) and even the US and Australia in the 70s and 80s. This is because they need the actual numbers to make up the workforce. Gulf countries encourage immigration? I think not, dear Bess. Know any Goan/Indian holding Arab citizenship? The hordes of labourers, from South East Asia are each and all guest-workers as in Germany in the fifties-sixties and just that. Alfred de Tavares, Stockholm, 2006-05-31 _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
Re: [Goanet] Goa importing poverty
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- --- Elisabeth Carvalho wrote: Isn't it time we had an honest discussion about the unchecked import of poverty into Goa? Isn't it time we held our politicians accountable? Isn't it time we found workable solutions that will not extinguish our way of life but rather strengthen it? Mario observes: Elizabeth, Good points. It's time. What exactly do we do next? Unfortunately, I have no answers, only questions. What exactly do we want the politicians to do? I'm sure we can demand they address the atrocities of prostitution, gambling, crime, violence and disease. I think that's the least a decent local government can do. Let's not forget road accidents. But I digress. Back to the economic issues. Are you suggesting a reverse-liberalization process? Do you know anyone willing to start a construction company in Goa or build a hotel that pays more than the prevailing wage rates? Isn't one person's view of poverty another person's survival, i.e. the busloads of empty non-Goan bellies? Are these lesser persons unworthy of our concern? What are all the Kunbi's and Gaudi's doing these days to fill their bellies? Can we prevent the free flow of labor between the rest of India and Goa while simultaneously encouraging the free flow of tourists and investors? Who decides what to build and where? Where is that bottle of Aspirin? _ Do not post admin requests to the list. Goanet mailing list (Goanet@goanet.org)
