Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- On Wed, 6/18/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Science together with religion should discuss the phenomena that led to the acceptance of reincarnation and exorcism. The above reveals a fundamental and fatal misunderstanding about the nature and purpose of science. Science must neither be mixed with religious thinking in general nor with the tenets of any particular religion in any discussion about natural phenomena. The ignorance about natural phenomena that led to the superstitions of reincarnation and exorcism, has been thoroughly dispelled by neurobiological evidence and insight i.e. by science alone. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it will enlighten Science in the meaning of the world and in the realm of values. I hope most people will reject interference of this type. The meaning of scientific concepts and explanations as they relate to the natural world should never be corrupted by any particular religious ideology. Scientific findings must be interpreted by science alone, in a dispassionate and unbiased manner. None of the multifarious conflicting supernatural ideologies should serve as a filter in interpreting anything that has to do with science. For example, the scientifically determined brain basis of mental illness should never be reconciled with or reinterpreted in the light of preconceived supernatural explanations justifying the belief in reincarnation or the practice of exorcism. *1.This answer does not contradict my statement, namely that Religion will enlighten Science in the meaning of the world and in the realm of values. Science should work with responsibility, but in itself it is value-free. It is Ethics that sheds its light on it. Religion and Philosophy entail ethical teaching. Therefore, Ethics should enlighten Science. This is not unlawful interference of Religion within the domain of Science. 2.Scientific concepts and explanations are not corrupted, but enriched and guided by Religion. Scientific findings have not been interpreted by science alone, in a dispassionate and unbiased manner. It needs light from Religion. That is the drama of today's scientific-technological world. As Albert Einstein has well predicted: Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind (Cf. Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, New York, 1954, p.46; Einstein also says: The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. See Max Jammer, Einstein und Die Religion, Konstanz, 1995, p.43: cf. the discussion, reported by Max Jammer, which Einstein once had with Rabindranath Tagore about his book The Religion of Man, when Einstein said: I am more religious than you are!). In this line of thought, I have said in this Forum that there is no atheist scientist. The problem is with the anthropomorphic language applied to God. Hence, Einstein found it difficult to accept a personal God... 3. Comparative study of Religions enlightens us. Distorted elements in religions should be corrected, if they are multifarious conflicting supernatural ideologies. Basically, Religion should be based on Love. Destruction in the name of religions is baseless, a contradiction... 4. Religion does not question that mental illness is a disorder of brain. There should be dialogue. Science together with religion should discuss the phenomena that led to the acceptance of reincarnation and exorcism. It is unscientific to discard them blindly... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
The following post does not address the issue I had raised, which is, how many educated people seriously think that science should have anything to do with unprovable supernatural beliefs. I would be surprised if more than a negligible minority would want the scope of science to be expanded in this manner. In the U.S., for instance, the vast majority of scientists and all scientific organizations are strongly opposed to including creationism in the high school science curriculum. In India this is the case with astrology. Cheers, Santosh --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the many practicing scientists who are also religious, as well as the millions of educated people who belong to one religion or the other, I would say that there are a substantial number of educated and highly educated people who are seriously open to the substantial circumstantial evidence of the existence of a supernatural being, which cannot be proved scientifically, yet cannot be disproved either.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] If his (Einstein's) mental and perceptual powers did miraculously survive the death of his brain, he would be expected to perceive Jewish heaven or hell, where he would not meet St. Peter - not even Shimon Keipha. Unless, of course, only Christianity is right, and everybody else is a fool. ***Each one is free to accept what we wish, with our reason and faith. Whether St.Peter or St.Joseph comes to meet us, we have to be there with our faith. Christianity is a historical religion and it speaks of our faith in the Resurrection of Christ. The Cardinal clearly speaks of God revealed through Jesus, a God who loves humanity, a God who is a Person. God is a reality, a Being, Transcendent and Immanent. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
Monotheistic religions usually take the position that their's is the only true path. What's unusual with this? FN 2008/5/25 Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED]: powers did miraculously survive the death of his brain, he would be expected to perceive Jewish heaven or hell, where he would not meet St. Peter - not even Shimon Keipha. Unless, of course, only Christianity is right, and everybody else is a fool.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- Frederick [FN] Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED], wrote: Monotheistic religions usually take the position that their's is the only true path. What's unusual with this? FN What would be interesting to find out is how many Indians believe this? That their's is the only true path. Also, I personally would like to know how many educated people would reject the now well-established scientific findings, implied in the following quote, that we cannot think, imagine or perceive anything without a living and intact brain. Cheers, Santosh From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] If his (Einstein's) mental and perceptual powers did miraculously survive the death of his brain, he would be expected to perceive Jewish heaven or hell, where he would not meet St. Peter - not even Shimon Keipha. Unless, of course, only Christianity is right, and everybody else is a fool.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] By my scientific calculations, it won't be long before we all know the correct answers to all these possibilities. Until then all we can do is blow lots and lots of speculative hot air on the subject since everyone admits that the existence of God cannot be proved, or disproved. ***Empirical science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. But empirical science is not the only source of knowledge. Reason and Faith speak to us of God's existence and love. Since the discussion was started on the basis of the Cardinal's speech, I think it cannot be left in the air. The Cardinal gave us the answer: he believes in God revealed by Jesus, as the Gospels attest. This truth is known by us. The last day will confirm it, as you rightly say, but we have to live by it now only with the Grace of God himself. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] If his (Einstein's) mental and perceptual powers did miraculously survive the death of his brain, he would be expected to perceive Jewish heaven or hell, where he would not meet St. Peter - not even Shimon Keipha. Unless, of course, only Christianity is right, and everybody else is a fool. Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 07:21:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Also, I personally would like to know how many educated people would reject the now well-established scientific findings, implied in the following (above) quote, that we cannot think, imagine or perceive anything without a living and intact brain. Mario responds: There is nothing to reject. The secular scientific hypothesis that we cannot think, imagine or perceive anything without a living and intact brain applies to this life as we know it and ignores the unprovable possibility of the existence of God and of an afterlife. The question posed is therefore moot within the context of these discussions.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: b) I, on the other hand, said that fool may not be too strong a word to describe anyone who disingenuously alleges that the Cardinal's respect was restricted to atheists and agnostics, and not extended to Hindus, Muslims and Jews. I believe the Cardinal would agree with me on this. One would have to actually verify whether the Cardinal really agrees with the author of the above statement with regard to the above-mentioned restrictions of courtesy and respect to others. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 16:46:57 +0100 (BST) From: CORNEL DACOSTA [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Mario Einstein was Jewish ethnically and like numbers of Jews, an atheist. What's the difficulty in understanding this simple point? Mario clarifies: Cornel, While I have understood this simple point, the discussion was more nuanced, and was based on religion, not ethnicity. I had kiddingly questioned whether Einstein still believed there was no God, based on the unprovable possibility that he may have been shocked to find himself at the gates of a heavenly afterlife. While I had rhetorically mentioned him coming face to face with St. Peter, this mythical Christian gatekeeper to heaven, who also came from an ethnic Jewish background, was not the crux of my musing, the possibility of a heavenly afterlife was, which I speculated would shock an avowed atheist like Einstein and show him he was not as clever as he thought he was. By my scientific calculations, it won't be long before we all know the correct answers to all these possibilities. Until then all we can do is blow lots and lots of speculative hot air on the subject since everyone admits that the existence of God cannot be proved, or disproved.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This too, is a possibility, but Christianity does not consider everybody else a fool, as the Cardinal was trying to say. and A fool may not be too strong a word to describe anyone who speculates that if the Cardinal would suggest that atheists and agnostics be respected, he would not extend the same courtesy to those who believe in a God. Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 15:21:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Looks like teachings of Christianity as preached by the Cardinal, and alluded to in the following quote, do not apply to the author of the above post: and Apparently, to him those who speculate differently from him are fools. Mario clarifies: There are two completely different issues that are being blurred and obfuscated here: a) The Cardinal, in suggesting respect for atheists and agnostiics, shows that Christianity does not consider those who do not believe as Christians do to be fools. I agree with the Cardinal on this. b) I, on the other hand, said that fool may not be too strong a word to describe anyone who disingenuously alleges that the Cardinal's respect was restricted to atheists and agnostics, and not extended to Hindus, Muslims and Jews. I believe the Cardinal would agree with me on this.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
Hi Mario Einstein was Jewish ethnically and like numbers of Jews, an atheist. What's the difficulty in understanding this simple point? Cornel --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Einstein was a Jew? I thought he was an atheist.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Einstein was a Jew? I thought he was an atheist. So, who knows which heaven he found himself in, or maybe he had a choice:-)) Please read Einstein: The Life and Times by Ronald Clark to find out the fact that he was born in a Jewish family, that throughout his life he strongly aligned himself with the Jewish identity, and fancied with the notion of an impersonal divinity, which Clark and others have referred to as Spinoza's god. He simply did not believe in a personal God or a Biblical God. But please note that Einstein certainly did not have anything to do with Christianity, as might be implied from the earlier speculation about his coming face-to-face with St. Peter. This too, is a possibility, but Christianity does not consider everybody else a fool, as the Cardinal was trying to say. A fool may be too strong a word for one who is not so clever (Please see below). The Cardinal was referring only to atheists, and perhaps, some agnostics, but not to Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. None of them expect to come face-to-face with St. Peter. Cheers, Santosh --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Einstein may have gotten a big shock when he came face-to-face with St. Peter and realized he wasn't as clever as he thought he was.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Einstein was a Jew? I thought he was an atheist. So, who knows which heaven he found himself in, or maybe he had a choice:-)) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 12:57:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] But please note that Einstein certainly did not have anything to do with Christianity, as might be implied from the earlier speculation about his coming face-to-face with St. Peter. Mario responds: Since Einstein was an avowed atheist from a religious point of view he had about as much to do with Christianity as he had to do with Judaism. Besides, the obsession with St. Peter, who was also an ethnic Jew like Einstein, obfuscates the basic point that was being made, which was that if the atheist Einstein was wrong and not as clever as he thought he was, which is a possibility that cannot be proved or disproved, he may have been shocked to find himself in heaven, regardless of who greeted him at the gate. Mario had written: but Christianity does not consider everybody else a fool, as the Cardinal was trying to say. Santosh wrote: A fool may be too strong a word for one who is not so clever (Please see below). The Cardinal was referring only to atheists, and perhaps, some agnostics, but not to Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. None of them expect to come face-to-face with St. Peter. Mario responds: A fool may not be too strong a word to describe anyone who speculates that if the Cardinal would suggest that atheists and agnostics be respected, he would not extend the same courtesy to those who believe in a God. As I have shown above, the obsession with St. Peter is a red herring. The issue is heaven and life after death, not which gatekeeper Einstein may have encountered once he got there.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A fool may not be too strong a word to describe anyone who speculates that if the Cardinal would suggest that atheists and agnostics be respected, he would not extend the same courtesy to those who believe in a God. Looks like teachings of Christianity as preached by the Cardinal, and alluded to in the following quote, do not apply to the author of the above post: This too, is a possibility, but Christianity does not consider everybody else a fool, as the Cardinal was trying to say. ...Mario Goveia Apparently, to him those who speculate differently from him are fools. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 10:00:03 -0700 (PDT) From: George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] According to Einstein's letter, God does not exist http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/ap_en_bu/britain_einstein_letter Mario wonders: The letter was written by Einstein in January 1954. I wonder what Einstein thinks today!:-)) Pssst. Jose, it's a joke, see? Please don't post a website informing us that Einstein is dead. Einstein may have gotten a big shock when he came face-to-face with St. Peter and realized he wasn't as clever as he thought he was.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Einstein may have gotten a big shock when he came face-to-face with St. Peter and realized he wasn't as clever as he thought he was. Einstein was a Jew. If his mental and perceptual powers did miraculously survive the death of his brain, he would be expected to perceive Jewish heaven or hell, where he would not meet St. Peter - not even Shimon Keipha. Unless, of course, only Christianity is right, and everybody else is a fool. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Hi Santosh In the same article, I had referred to, Einstein rejected wholesale the Jewish Zionist position on Israel even though he had been requested to become the second President/leader of Israel but had rejected the offer. Cornel --- Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Einstein was a Jew. If his mental and perceptual powers did miraculously survive the death of his brain, he would be expected to perceive Jewish heaven or hell, where he would not meet St. Peter - not even Shimon Keipha. Unless, of course, only Christianity is right, and everybody else is a fool. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 07:41:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Einstein was a Jew. If his mental and perceptual powers did miraculously survive the death of his brain, he would be expected to perceive Jewish heaven or hell, where he would not meet St. Peter - not even Shimon Keipha. Mario responds: Einstein was a Jew? I thought he was an atheist. So, who knows which heaven he found himself in, or maybe he had a choice:-)) However, this dialog shows that the possibility of such a miracle cannot be proved or disproved:-)) Santosh wrote: Unless, of course, only Christianity is right, and everybody else is a fool. Mario responds: This too, is a possibility, but Christianity does not consider everybody else a fool, as the Cardinal was trying to say. Whether one is a fool depends on each individual.
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
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From: Albert Desouza [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Fr.Ivo
I do not remember having met you before. I cannot understand how you can
know me personally. Your introduction would be welcomed.
***You have been mentioning in your postings your participation in the drama
of late Fr.Freddy Jeremias da Costa. If it is the same Alberto, then I know
you. I met you and you can understand that I know you personally. This is
not an important point. Let it not divert us into another controversy.
Regarding the cardinal's speech about God I think no one has
understood it including the cardinal himself.
*** Surely the Cardinal knows what he is talking about. Going along his
language, I do understand it. Many, if not most, will understand him.
God is found in huts and hearts too. Poor Jesus was born in the stable
which was not his, lived in the house which was not his ( I suppose so)
died on the cross the wood was not his and was burried in the grave which
also was not his.
***Let us not start another controversy about the biblical data regarding
his house, stable/manger, cross and grave. With all the data, we believe
that Jesus of Nazareth is God made Man. God revealed himself in and through
Jesus. He is the Son of God, God-Man.
Yet his words and his deeds were magnificient. Simple living and high
thinking. In today's world please do not feel offended, the clergy has
taken the advantage of the innocence of the laiety.
***We have to take note of the modern life and all its components before we
pass a judgment on anybody. This is not the Forum. Jesus is the Way, Truth
and Life (cf.Jn 14:6). Yet it is not so simple and easy to follow him. With
his Grace, yes (cf.Mt 11:30).
Can you tell me one think which really I cannot understand is that why
is the church giving so much importance to Mary that she is shown as a diety
? from January till December we are celebrating so many feasts of Mary in
different names.
***Mary is the Mother of Jesus, not a deity. She tells us: Do whatever he
(Jesus) tells you (cf.Jn 2:5). We celebrate feasts in her honour so as to
remind ourselves of her message.
The bible clearly says that if we have to reach out to the Father we have
to enroute through Jesus where as the church has been preaching a different
story. The church has to follow Christ and not make its own do.
***The Church is not telling us otherwise. We reach the Father through
Jesus, the Way to God. Mary shows us the way...
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Cardinal's speech
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- According to Einstein's letter, God does not exist -http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080516/ap_en_bu/britain_einstein_letter Regards, George
Re: [Goanet] cardinal's speech and linen washing thereafter
From: Albert Desouza [EMAIL PROTECTED] For so many days I have been reading what cardinal said what Fr.Ivo said --- and what the readers said.--- Why do you wash the linen on this goanet? ***I do admire the postings of Albert, whom I know personally. It is a good job to write and express one's faith and convictions. But at the same time we have to know that there is a duty to deepen our faith. Discussions can help us. By trying to see what the Cardinal has said is also a useful exercise. When there are misunderstandings, discussion on the text and context will not be an exercise in futility... Cardinals are there to give speeches which people like me have to read smile and go to sleep because it contains bombastic words and phrases which poor people like me cannot understand. ***Any speech will have difficult words to understand unless we are tuned to that language. When one reads about science, we put up all efforts to learn the scientific language. Our daily papers bring so many words which we may have to look for in the dictionary. A speech on Christian faith will have its peculiar vocabulary. We have to do some homework to understand it. Catechism classes will teach some language. Theology will teach more. No wonder that not everyone can understand every word from the Cardinal's speech, as not everyone can understand all the English words or Konkani words from a speech on science, politics, sociology, psychology, or biblical exegesis. If they live in a manger among the poor by removing the purple there is christ and if they talk big things they belong to the elite. ***There is a status in the society. All of us have to live according to our vocation. The Cardinal does not have to live in a manger by removing the purple, but he has to work for the human dignity by bringing the poor to the table and alleviating their misery. In history I remember Cardinal Paul-Emile Leger (1904-1991), who served as Archbishop of Montreal from 1950 till 1968, and was elevated to Cardinal in 1953, at age 48, by Pius XII. He gave up the privileges of a Cardinal to work among lepers and handicapped children in Africa. He spent 12 years in the Cameroon. He said: It will be the great scandal of the history of our century that 500 million people are eating well and living luxuriously and every year millions of children are dying of hunger. When the Cardinal Leger toured African leper colonies and saw misery, he started raising money for the lepers. Five years later, with those sights still seared in his memory, he stunned Canadians by resigning as Archbishop of Montreal to return to Africa and work among the lepers and impoverished children as a missionary. He would say: In a country like ours where so much money circulates, there are always a few crumbs worth picking up. There is a vocation, and 'a vocation within vocation'. Not every Cardinal will do the same work as Card.Leger or Mother Teresa. You can work in different ways, among the elite and among the poor. 'Why do you wash the linen on Goanet'? I would request you all to forget about the speech for if we are called atheist or communist it does not change our skin for I feel communism is the best and Jesus was a communist as many great people like me feel for he believed in equality. ***Why should we forget about the speech? Is language not important? Is instruction not needed? Why should we be called 'atheists' or 'communists'? Why is 'communism' the 'best'? Does Communism believe in equality? What do you mean by communism, when you say that communism is the best? Do you speak about 'communism' in the early Church? What do you mean when you say that Jesus was a communist? Do you speak of the 'communist' ideology? Or that Jesus spoke of God as Father and humanity as 'children of God'? You see, again, the question of understanding is coming up. We are human beings and need language for our communication and human growth. We can deepen this topic privately without a new controversy in the Goanet... Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] cardinal's speech and linen washing thereafter
Dear Friends For so many days I have been reading what cardinal said what Fr.Ivo said --- and what the readers said.--- Why do you wash the linen on this goanet? Cardinals are there to give speeches which people like me have to read smile and go to sleep because it contains bombastic words and phrases which poor people like me cannot understand. If they live in a manger among the poor by removing the purple there is christ and if they talk big things they belong to the elite. I would request you all to forget about the speech for if we are called atheist or communist it does not change our skin for I feel communism is the best and Jesus was a communist as many great people like me feel for he believed in equality . Albert D _ Timely update on all current affairs, sports, events and all thats in News here on MSN videos. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-in
