Re: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
--- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: The moral of the story: stay in India, they exploit you in the US of A. Mario responds: Somehow, the information that they exploit you in the US of A seems to have escaped the attention of the millions of immigrants that have always poured into the US of A and continue to do so. Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:27:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am very sorry to disagree and disappoint you completely on this one. A soft-ware engineer working for an AMERICAN (not Indian, because there are a lot of Indian companies operating in America too), would be living in the lap of luxury, and enjoying the sort of lifestyle unheard off anywhere else in the world. The notion that America is an exploitative nation, making its money on the backs of immigrants is a nice marxist fantasy. Say, what you may about America, but nowhere else in the world has such wealth been generated for such a bell-curve of the population. I assure you, nothing compares with the opportunity, resources, convenience and lifestyle that US affords. Mario responds: Your analysis about the USA, from an unbiased personal perspective, is right on the money - and the proof lies, not in a few disgruntled individuals who could not handle the highly competitive environment, or were rejected for residency, but the millions of immigrants that continue to pour into the country, legally and illegally, many risking their lives in doing so.
Re: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
--- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RESPONSE: The moral of the story: stay in India, they exploit you in the US of A. -- Dear Gabe, I am very sorry to disagree and disappoint you completely on this one. A soft-ware engineer working for an AMERICAN (not Indian, because there are a lot of Indian companies operating in America too), would be living in the lap of luxury, and enjoying the sort of lifestyle unheard off anywhere else in the world. The notion that America is an exploitative nation, making its money on the backs of immigrants is a nice marxist fantasy. And speaking of socialist fantasies, I'm afraid Europe and that includes the UK are entirely emasculated by America. Say, what you may about America, but nowhere else in the world has such wealth been generated for such a bell-curve of the population. The idea that the state can look after its people with heavy taxation, is perversive socialist ideology which has reduced much of Europe to dismal living conditions. Even India, I can tell you has far more economic vibrancy and middle-class prosperity than Europe. I assure you, nothing compares with the opportunity, resources, convenience and lifestyle that US affords.I guess I'm persona non-grata to Goans in London, after this eh? :-) selma Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
--- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May 4th the Saligao Association celebrate their Feast day here in London, two roads away from me. So we shall walk and have a good time. Now besides Goa, where else in the World could you get decent transport to almost any part of London, or walk the walk? --- Dear Gabe, I must say London Goans are very nice. That Mario and Gilbert wallahs never invited this Shastikaan to a dance all the time I was there and we Shastikaan do love to dance :-) Best, selma Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Re: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
Hi Selma Not at all dear Selma. Ever so poor as we are, we warmly welcome you to the UK to joyously share with you the ever so little we have. Please make contact soon! Cornel --- Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I assure you, nothing compares with the opportunity, resources, convenience and lifestyle that US affords.I guess I'm persona non-grata to Goans in London, after this eh? :-) selma
[Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
Hello All, I would lie to share with you my response to a forward from Bharat, a friend from high school. We recently got back in touch after over twenty-five years. Bharat is doing well, a confirmed bird-watcher, PhD in Ornithology and all. His forward appears after my text. I am doing this to dissuade others from compulsive knee jerk analysis of the woeful stories one hears about Indians in the U.S., which later become part of existential lore. Often these stories happen to be written by those living in India masquerading as disenchanted individuals in the US/ or who have left the US — who are suddenly into deep introspection. What happened to chalta hai. Ab kyon nahain chalta? Aankhen kholo to dek pahonge, Samajik kahandaar dikhate hain ki imarat bulaand nahin thi. [[ What happened to its all okay (things will work out). Why is it not okay now? If one opens one eyes one will be able to see (becomes apparent) the societal ruins revealing that the edifice was not strong in the first place (to begin with) ]]. Venantius __ Dear Bharat, Its a great story, but often enough such stories are written by those who are very comfortable living in the US while being the most fanatical or utter buffoons. But that is besides the point. This piece states many truths, but which have to be seen against their respective ideological backdrops, some of whom may miss either inadvertently or on account of their lack of control over their wants, desires, and expectations; being subject to maya is one of the many realities, however hard to perceive this may be. First of all is the role of Christianity, to which modernity is a heir. Following this we have criticism which stems from modernity — I mean critical thinking in the western sense. Having said that, the story begins to reveal or must be seen at these crossroads. Modernity demands that one change, leave the past and move into a world with fewer moorings. This does not mean being adrift; but choices have to be made, and people, parents, as well as the self have to be educated along the ways to the new experiential realities. This is an ongoing process. It does not stop. Things do not just fall into place. They have to be moderated and modulated, each according to their strengths and biases. So if one's wife has never worn a dress, and if one is not comfortable with her idea of doing so, or her rejecting her spouse's idea that she should do so — one must desist from such thoughts. This is a small peak into how other more complex issues, includes perceptions about oneself, about ones spouse, family, relatives, and furthermore what one speculates that others may be thinking conversely — can affect ones mental well-being, leading to odd questions being generated. In my experience, I have seen only too often that Indians with their facility of English, presuming that everything is within reach including moving smoothly through societies,They have got their advanced degrees, as have thousands of others If this person was an engineer then there was no preventing him from going to India every year. All this talk of money is utter nonsense. They were either being extravagant in their lifestyles or had made poor financial choices. My salary is very small (part of it has been a choice) compared to base line engineers and programmers, but I do a lot of things, and would do so even if I had children — including taking into consideration the other people in my life. The bottom line is be who you are. This person wanted to be a part of the West, but was he really ready, does he ever blame himself for his inability to comprehend this world, does he ever say anything about himself other than his wife, the TV, parents, etc. I am an artist and I stayed that way. I absorbed many things, even thought of becoming a doctor, a medical illustrator, a radiology technician, but decided to keep being working as a Digital artist. Trust me, no one screws around with me, but that takes strength and belief, and being ready at any time to be fired. How many of our people are comfortable with this. We have to be who we fundamentally are / were. I am a San Dan in Japanese calligraphy, studying multiple languages, to mean, doing what I can and must in this reality. It would have been different for me in India. Even better if I wanted to sell TVs — as a Creative Director (which is what I would certainly have been) or a hard-arsed artist on Page 3, and an extremely wealthy one at that. I rent as opposed to buy, since I am comfortable with that concept unlike other Indians. It is just how we individually see things. Indians in India as they evaluate their existence are charmed by these stories. I say just live your own lives, keep in touch with old friends if its worth it, and just be. Tat tvam asi, venantius On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Bharat Xxx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend of mine, sent this very dismal story for reading... have a dekho
Re: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
On 24/04/2008, Venantius Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My wife refused to come back with me and my children refused to stay in India ... My 2 children and I returned to USA after promising my wife I would be back for good after two years. Time passed by, my daughter decided to get married to an American and my son was happy living in USA ... I decided that had enough and wound-up every thing and returned to India ... I had just enough money to buy a decent 02 bedroom flat in a well-developed locality. Now I am 60 years old and the only time I go out of the flat is for the routine visit to the nearby temple. My faithful wife has also left me and gone to the holy abode. Sometimes I wonder was it worth all this? My father, even after staying in India , had a house to his name and I too have the same nothing more. I lost my parents and children for just ONE EXTRA BEDROOM. Looking out from the window I see a lot of children dancing. This damned cable TV has spoiled our new generation and these children are losing their values and culture because of it. I get occasional cards from my children asking I am alright. Well at least they remember me. Now perhaps after I die it will be the neighbors again who will be performing my last rights, God Bless them. But the question still remains 'was all this worth it?' I am still searching for an answer.!!! START THINKING IS IT JUST FOR ONE EXTRA BEDROOM??? LIFE IS BEYOND THIS .DON'T JUST LEAVE YOUR LIFE START LIVING IT ... LIVE IT AS YOU WANT IT TO BE ... RESPONSE: The moral of the story: stay in India, they exploit you in the US of A. I am surprised though that having worked as a software Engineer he could just about afford a place back home? The Americanos are pulling wool over the eyes of many Indians it seems. Perhaps Rajan Parrikar would like to give us his take, oh please, please ? Or better still my distant, distant cousin V.M. ( Menezes). Mario please don't respond, keep your opinions to yourself, thank you. -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England
[Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Bharat wrote: A friend of mine, sent this very dismal story for reading... have a dekho at it... ONE BEDROOM FLAT... WRITTEN BY AN INDIAN SOFTWARE ENGINEER.. A Bitter Reality Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2008 10:49:56 -0400 From: Venantius Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am doing this to dissuade others from compulsive knee jerk analysis of the woeful stories one hears about Indians in the U.S., which later become part of existential lore. Often these stories happen to be written by those living in India masquerading as disenchanted individuals in the US/ or who have left the US ? who are suddenly into deep introspection. Mario wonders: Venantius, Thankfully, such woeful stories are few and far between. Besides, such pathos can just as easily take place within India. It seems as if the individual featured in the dismal story sent to you chose to carry on his shoulders the incredible weight that comes from clinging to his native identity in a land where the happiest immigrants seem to be the ones who have intellectually assimilated into their new cultural environment while still having the strength to appreciate their own culture and heritage enough to inject its best features into the new culture that they have chosen to live in, thereby benefiting both. This is more easily achieved in the highly diverse immigrant-populated-USA than in most other countries. For those like him, the glass is always seen as half empty as opposed to half full. I like your pithy advice, I say just live your own lives, keep in touch with old friends if its worth it, and just be. I might add that I have always found keeping in touch with old friends to be well worth it. And, I might also add, as one who has come face to face with my own mortality, it never hurts to count one's blessings every waking day. One part of your post reminded me of the Hindi-speaking heartland where I grew up, where we used the phrase, Khandar se patha chalta hai ki imarat buland thi when appreciating the still evident beauty of a gracefully aging woman:-))
Re: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion
Guys, You are both on the ball. Gabe, over the years I have seen people get mislead with posts that are critical of life in the US. You point that well in your response. A lot of the angst although valid, is almost self-fulfilling and the gullible believe it. Mario, I am charmed by your clarity of thought. I mean this. Also, to know the phrase Khandar se patha chalta hai ki imarat buland thi (when appreciating the still evident beauty of a gracefully aging woman:-)) is pretty cool. It may also be stated as Khandar khahete hain (kee) imarat buland thee, almost as if the ruins are stating/ revealing that the edifice was strong (akhand) to analogize with a gracefully aging woman. And a woman who ages gracefully is a sensual sight spread over time! It is indeed true that one must set the tone of assimilation into the new culture (of the other) to get the most out of it; in that sense achieving some measure of balance and happiness. That part is spelled brilliantly in Mario's post. Thanks guys. On this post I was second-guessing myself for once, whether to send it in or not but it appears to have been taken in good spirit. I also feel that my friend wished to elicit some response from me -- my living in the US and all that. Now our responses are archived for future generations. : ) Btw, Mario where did you grow up -- Lucknow, Jhansi, Bhusaval, where? Venantius From: Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion RESPONSE: The moral of the story: stay in India, they exploit you in the US of A. I am surprised though that having worked as a software Engineer he could just about afford a place back home? The Americanos are pulling wool over the eyes of many Indians it seems. DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England From: Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] Enchantment and Delusion Mario wonders: Venantius, It seems as if the individual featured in the dismal story sent to you chose to carry on his shoulders the incredible weight that comes from clinging to his native identity in a land where the happiest immigrants seem to be the ones who have intellectually assimilated into their new cultural environment while still having the strength to appreciate their own culture and heritage enough to inject its best features into the new culture that they have chosen to live in, thereby benefiting both. This is more easily achieved in the highly diverse immigrant-populated-USA than in most other countries.
