Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Planning to get married in Goa? www.weddingsetcgoa.com Making your 'dream wedding' possible hi Bernado ! You are 100% right the brain needs rest ! that's why we humans spend more than 1/3 rd of our lives sleeping. I agree when you say 'it is now factual that the Iberica stance of resting periods helps a lot to recover the brains.' My daughter who is in the ninth standard in School has this habit of studying for a hour and dozing off for 10 minutes. I never stopped her as she always managed to maintain her rank without a tutor. But during the her terminal exams her syllabus had reached alarming portions and she got bored , started sleeping for two hours and studying for one. As a result nor did she get good sleep nor did the rest of the family at night, Hence I had to rebuke her and tell her to doze off ever two hours for a good fifteen minutes. Your observations are scientifically proven and I endorse them , however there may / are some among us who may not be able to interpret the observations / conclusions of scientific experiments and my prefer sleeping all the time . It is but necessary that educated & intelligent people like you take home the message of hard work and fortitude to them and make them realize that we cannot blame others for our deficiencies ( remember the parable of Christ where he speaks of being prepared waiting prepared for the bridegroom) . I am sure you too have seen success through you intelligence and hard work. Regards Cheryl From: Bernado Colaco Hi Ms. Cheryl, ? I wonder? if teacher Melba had Rodrigues as the last name. It is now factual that the Iberica stance of resting periods helps a lot to recover the brains. So much for the lunatics from North America. Some of them subscribe to Goanet. ? BC ? I can still remember teacher Melba explaining the meaning to us and how? her words shaped my life.
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Planning to get married in Goa? www.weddingsetcgoa.com Making your 'dream wedding' possible Hi! My name is Cheryl , but explaining an email Id like Pcheryl would take us back to one of the hottest debates on Goa net. Please permit me to use your question to add to this debate !!! Regards Cheryl What's in a name ( formerly CHRISTIANs WITH HINDU NAMES ARE COWARDS) 15 years ago one Cheryl Desouza joined an organization called Stock Holding Corporation of Inida which had an 70% South India Hindu population and 28.5% other Hindu population . 1.5 % catholic population . Of this 1.5 % Catholics Goans consistited 25 % and I was the loan Goan woman in the operations side the rest were secretaries . It was but fair enough that I would often receive mail addressed C/O South Holding Corporation of Inida . Hence keeping in line with the great South India Tradition of having the husbands initial / family name before ones name , my email Id got created as pche...@stockholding .com But over the year I have noticed that as per my office records Cheryl Dsouza got changed to Cheryl Pereira and then unceremoniously to pcheryl which is totally harsh to the ear and sounds more like an illiterate . But I have not changed from being the Cheryl Desouza and still radiated the same aura ( if any ) invoke the same emotions / disgust among people I interact with . So as one of our friends has rightly said What's in a name???. My ancestors were Hindus , I am a Catholic ?? Why should I be ashamed of a Hindu name ??? By being ashamed of a Hindu name I am indirectly ashamed of ancestors ? Were they that lowly members of society that I should whant to deny their existence??? That amounts to self denial and insult to my self . I can change my name but not my Blood ! And certainly not history! Regarding your illiterate non Goan Sarpanch , I can very much guess she is a Marwadi. Last may I went to the north east for a holiday and I was stunned to see that most business ( Shops ) in Assam and Shillong were owned by Marwawadi's. The North East is a matriarch society where one goes by this mothers family name unlike the rest of India. And from the current state of affairs in the North East you may as well guess how very sentimental people are about their land and Culture . The Marwadi's out there have fond a novel way to get acceptance in a matriarch society. They have married local girls and have added their surnames to theirs . NE being a matriarch society they have managed to find acceptance among the locals and have made much more successful business men because of their Marwadi Genes. Now regarding you illiterate non Goan Sarpanch, ask yourselves who voted her to power ? has she done you any better than a Goan Sarpanch .? If yes , appreciate and Integrate , she cares for you much more than your own Goan Surpanch . If no just Boot ! You have the democratic power to do so! The choice is yours . Just crying fowl don?t help . Now if 1/3 rd of us can be bought for a peg of Fenny ! only vote and the remaining want to hold on to our Susegad philosophy ,we might as well as lay back ! try and enjoy it . After all each one of us has contributed to such a system and majority wins is the rule of any game! Alfred de Tavares 10/08/2009 08:31 PM To GOANET Lists , Goa Net Organization , cc Subject RE: [Goanet] Indian colonialism Dear Pcheryl, Is the 'P', in your sweet name silent as in Psmith? Just pleasantly curious Alfred...nothing silent therein... > From:pcheryl cheryl.pere...@stockholding.com > To: goa...@goanet.org > Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 08:17:57 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism > > > * G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * > > > Planning to get married in Goa? > > www.weddingsetcgoa.com > > Making your 'dream wedding' possible > > > > Hi Bernado ! > > Its pleasant to find literary inclined Goans on the net. We can all help each other > through our learning and sharing . Literature is the product of a very intelligent / > powerful mind and always carries a hidden message which is hard to wisely > decipher. In fact the poetry you quoted was one of my favorite I studies during > high school . I can still remember teacher Melba explaining the meaning to us an
[Goanet] Indian colonialism
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Planning to get married in Goa? www.weddingsetcgoa.com Making your 'dream wedding' possible Hi Ms. Cheryl, I wonder if teacher Melba had Rodrigues as the last name. It is now factual that the Iberica stance of resting periods helps a lot to recover the brains. So much for the lunatics from North America. Some of them subscribe to Goanet. BC I can still remember teacher Melba explaining the meaning to us and how her words shaped my life.
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Planning to get married in Goa? www.weddingsetcgoa.com Making your 'dream wedding' possible Hi Bernado ! Its pleasant to find literary inclined Goans on the net. We can all help each other through our learning and sharing . Literature is the product of a very intelligent / powerful mind and always carries a hidden message which is hard to wisely decipher. In fact the poetry you quoted was one of my favorite I studies during high school . I can still remember teacher Melba explaining the meaning to us and how her words shaped my life. Two other very inspirational poems I faintly recall are 'IF' and another by D.H Lawrence which went on to explain ' Do not make monkeys of men , by having men manning machines' . How much very true are all these poems when they talk about life . You begin to realize life has not changed over the centuries. Humans time and again has always had this feeing of helpless ness and no time for theselves. , unable to break free from situations they consider as detrimental and that's why we express ourselves through poetry and literature . The poem 'If ' goes on to explain human nature of always saying 'IF I had not done this and if I only I had done that , then I could have got that' . Always finding excuse for not having achieved what his neighbor has . As a poetically inclined and talented person , please keep up your talent There may one day be a dawn of realization that every thing in life has a time. Time for play & time for work , time for joy and time for sorrow. Time to love and time to hate .Time to praise God and time to say Why God? . What eventually would set one apart from rest of his fellow beings and makes him feel contented is the feeling ' Yes , I have had my time, I have had it all but if I have survived it all and have been victorious. My courage& fortitude made me never give up when things went wrong ,dead wrong !? I have done it !' If we have rights we have duties too . Rest is my right as much as it is my right to feed my self . Don't expect others to feed me , it is my duty to feed myself. If I cannot feed myself, the world views me as a parasite and I find myself left far behind while the world has gone ahead of me..'Time and tide waits for no man' ' Don't Curse the word then?' bye Cheryl
[Goanet] Indian colonialism
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Planning to get married in Goa? www.weddingsetcgoa.com Making your 'dream wedding' possible What is this life if full of care We have no time to stand and stare? No time to stand beneath the boughs And stare as long as sheep, or cows. No time to see, when woods we pass, Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass. No time to see, in broad daylight, Streams full of stars, like skies at night. No time to turn at Beauty's glance, And watch her feet, how they can dance. No time to wait till her mouth can Enrich that smile her eyes began. A poor life this, if full of care, We have no time to stand and stare. William Henry Davies Some work regulations in the UK Sometimes it can feel like your boss would just like you to keep working until you drop down but you are entitled to a certain amount of rest by law. Taking breaks actually increases your productivity so it helps your employer anyway. You are entitled to different things depending on your job and your age but it is important that you know what these are so that you can look after yourself and make sure your employer is abiding by regulations. Rest Breaks – Your Rights When you are working you have a right to 20 minute break for every six hours that you work. Your employer can tell you when to take it as long as it is taken in one block, is not at the beginning or end of your day and you are allowed to spend it off the premises. Workers that are under 18 are entitled to more and can take 30 minutes for every four and a half hours that they work. Daily and Weekly Rest As well as rules about how much rest you are allowed within the working day, there are also regulations about how much time you should be given between shifts. You have the right to have at least 11 hours off between working days with this rising to 12 hours if you are under 18. You also have the right to a ‘weekly rest’ of 24 hours or 48 hours within a two week period = They have this royal habit of blaming every one other than them selves for their failing /deficiencies. Perhaps we still believe in our great old Portuguese inheritance of business not opening shop before 10 am , having an afternoon nap and then shutting shop by 7 p.m. BC
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism - final
On Wed, 30/9/09, J. Colaco wrote: > It is good to note that Mario Goveia proclaims himself as the 'lone > voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace'. He has certainly taken > his inspiration from the much (self) vaunted "fair and balanced" > Faux/Fix Nooj. Mario responds: I think JC is referring to Fox News, the most popular cable news network in the USA, which has more viewers than all its cable news competitors COMBINED, which includes the well known CNN, because it is considered to be far more "fair and balanced" than its competitors in its news reporting as well as in its commentary. Likewise, my "fair and balanced" posts have made me the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace. I thank JC for making the correct analogy here, even though his spelling needs work. BTW, JC has been a Goanetter far longer than I have and could have been a voice for reason, truth and peace, but has apparently chosen not to be. JC wrote: > It is truly inspiring to see a new 'entrant' into the justification > for invasion i.e. "subcontinent". Mario is, of course, quite well > versed with finding newer justifications. Sure, there are international > conventions and organisations like the UN --- but who cares? They are > only useful when they are convenient. Besides, Geneva is a > foreign 'country"(;-) like London or Europe. Who cares about > those foreign conventions? Mario responds: I'm not sure why JC is "truly inspired" by the well known FACT that Goa had been invaded by the Portuguese and occupied for 450 years, and consider it a "new" situation. JC cites the UN and something about Geneva and some "foreign conventions", all of which consider invasions of aggression and subsequent long term occupations for purposes of exploitation to be illegal. The far more powerful Brits and French had seen the light, whereas a third rate European country was still playing games. The farce had gone on long enough. THIRTEEN years later, the Portuguese FINALLY saw the light as well, and signed a treaty accepting India's sovereignty over Goa. JC wrote: > Am I correct in understanding that Mario Goveia is equating the > Invasion of Irak with that of Goa? Mario responds: No you are not correct in your understanding. They were not quite equal in what they were doing but both needed to be ejected. Iraq was a tyrannical dictatorship which was brutalizing its people, killing political adversaries of the tyrannical regime, looting its treasury, menacing its neighbors and defying the UN. In Goa we had a "passive-aggressive" third rate European country that had invaded the territory and occupied it for 450 years, were defying the world by refusing to recognize that the era of colonialism was over and were trying to perpetuate the farcical sophistry that Goa was an "overseas territory". JC wrote: > Mario's position therefore justifies China's invasion of Tibet, > Indonesia's invasion of East Timor, and Pakistan's invasion of Western > Kashmir. > > What it also does - is justifies Irak's invasion of Kuwait. (I know > Mario will look up the history books) Mario responds: This is false. My position does nothing of the kind. In addition, as the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace, I have no need to look up any history books to know about these fairly recent events. Clearly the revisionist history books that JC seems to be referring to do not distinguish between invasions of aggression and hegemony and liberations of territories from recalcitrant tyrannical regimes. JC wrote: > Now I have said enough about this matter. I accept Mario Goveia > as the final authority on all invasive matters. If he is wrong, we > shall all blame it to 'intelligence' failure. Mario responds: Fortunately, I am not wrong, and the only failure of "intelligence" in this particular post can be seen in JC's comments, specifically the inability to distinguish between invasions of aggression and hegemony and liberations from dictatorial regimes which, in the cases of Iraq and Goa, were given ample warnings to voluntarily take corrective action before corrective action was imposed on them.
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 08:37:08 -0400 From: "J. Colaco < jc>" ps: Please note that the ONLY reason I brought up this 1974 Treaty is because Mario made it out to be important to Goans. I contend that it is of zero use to Goans. Goa was already annexed in 1961 Mario responds: I'm not sure what JC understands about some of these posts on Goanet but the following post shows why the treaty is important to Goans. One of the biggest Portuguese sycophants on Goanet, who has been harping on the illegality of the liberation of Goa and claiming that any non-Goans who move to Goa do so "illegally", did not even know about the treaty. http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2009-September/183605.html
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
Portugal surrendered. Time to move on. Have some tuna instead. I. Nunes --- On Wed, 9/30/09, J. Colaco < jc> wrote: So dear I Nunes, Is it your opinion that Goans were vanquished or an Integral part of any Vanquished nation? Why were Goans denied this? Were they (the Goans) the waging war on anybody? BTW Tuna apart, Did the East Timoreans not get to decide? ps: Please note that the ONLY reason I brought up this 1974 Treaty is because Mario made it out to be important to Goans. I contend that it is of zero use to Goans. Goa was already annexed in 1961 jc 2009/9/29 lyrawmn : My reference was to the 1951 Peace in the Pacific Treaty to which Japan and the USA were signatories, following WWII. The distinction I was attempting was that nations wage war, surrender, sign peace treaties in good faith that benefits their nationals [who do not get to vote on this executive function.] My take was on the vanquished in wars. Yours would appear to be..tuna?
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism - final
Mario Goviea, the self-proclaimed 'lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace' wrote the following (I summarise) 1: Since India was liberating a territory that was an integral part of the Indian SUBCONTINENT that had been invaded and occupied by force by the Portuguese occupiers for 450 years, asking the "permission" of the local population who were being liberated was hardly necessary and considered moot. 2: my consistent support for the liberation of oppressed territories from tyrannical regimes, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan or Goa. 3: Thus, I supported India's decision to liberate Goa from the Portuguese invaders who had occupied it by force and then run it mostly for the benefit of the occupiers and some local sycophants, COMMENT: It is good to note that Mario Goveia proclaims himself as the 'lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace'. He has certainly taken his inspiration from the much (self) vaunted "fair and balanced" Faux/Fix Nooj. It is truly inspiring to see a new 'entrant' into the justification for invasion i.e. "subcontinent". Mario is, of course, quite well versed with finding newer justifications. Sure, there are international conventions and organisations like the UN ---but who cares? They are only useful when they are convenient. Besides, Geneva is a foreign 'country"(;-) like London or Europe. Who cares about those foreign conventions? Am I correct in understanding that Mario Goveia is equating the Invasion of Irak with that of Goa? Mario's position therefore justifies China's invasion of Tibet, Indonesia's invasion of East Timor, and Pakistan's invasion of Western Kashmir. Brilliant !! What it also does - is justifies Irak's invasion of Kuwait. (I know Mario will look up the history books) Interesting indeed! Now I have said enough about this matter. I accept Mario Goveia as the final authority on all invasive matters. If he is wrong, we shall all blame it to 'intelligence' failure. jc
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 So dear I Nunes, Is it your opinion that Goans were vanquished or an Integral part of any Vanquished nation? Why were Goans denied this? Were they (the Goans) the waging war on anybody? BTW Tuna apart, Did the East Timoreans not get to decide? ps: Please note that the ONLY reason I brought up this 1974 Treaty is because Mario made it out to be important to Goans. I contend that it is of zero use to Goans. Goa was already annexed in 1961 jc 2009/9/29 lyrawmn : My reference was to the 1951 Peace in the Pacific Treaty to which Japan and the USA were signatories, following WWII. The distinction I was attempting was that nations wage war, surrender, sign peace treaties in good faith that benefits their nationals [who do not get to vote on this executive function.] My take was on the vanquished in wars. Yours would appear to be..tuna?
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:31:29 -0400 From: "J. Colaco < jc>" That is why the WILL of the people i.e. Democracy is determined NOT by speculating on chances but by going directly to the people and asking them a very simple question. There is NO argument put forth that this "asking" should have been done in 1974; 1962 would have been a good time - unless Mario knows of an excellent reason (based on the principles of democracy) why not? Mario responds: Of course I know an excellent reason, which is why I remain the lone voice on Goanet of reason, truth and peace:-)) The concept behind the "simple" question JC asked is so simple that it makes no sense. Since India was liberating a territory that was an integral part of the Indian subcontinent that had been invaded and occupied by force by the Portuguese occupiers for 450 years, asking the "permission" of the local population who were being liberated was hardly necessary and considered moot. India was gracious enough to keep Goa intact as a self governing entity, whereas it could very well have been divided up between Maharashtra and Karnataka. JC wrote: Of course, I do understand Mario Goveia's support for invasions and occupations. Mario responds: As we can see from his comments JC pretends not to understand my consistent support for the liberation of oppressed territories from tyrannical regimes, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan or Goa. Thus, I supported India's decision to liberate Goa from the Portuguese invaders who had occupied it by force and then run it mostly for the benefit of the occupiers and some local sycophants, mostly Christians who had been converted over the year, also mostly by coercion. Invading a foreign country, occupying a part of a foreign country for 450 years, forcibly converting people from Hindus and Muslims to Christians, pretending the colony was an integral part of Portugal? Tsk, tsk, tsk. These aggressive European occupiers don't seem to have been very nice people, except to their sycophants among the natives in Goa. Oppressive to everyone else. Fourteen years after the modern era of colonialism had ended, and Portugal had refused several polite requests to vacate the forcibly occupied premises, India decided to end the farcical Portuguese charade of an "overseas province" and recovered Goa from the recalcitrant occupiers. Thirteen years later, the Portuguese meekly signed a treaty accepting India's sovereignty over Goa. Case closed. Time to move on.
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism - FN
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 The illustrious Frederick [FN] Noronha wrote in true GoaJourno style - 1: Ah ha! 2: I note that JC has neatly side-stepped the substantial issues of my post (my view of the reasons for 1961 looking less of a Liberation today) 3: Since lastwordism isn't one of my virtues, 4: Secondly, I didn't travel to Brazil. I only returned from there :-) 5: Thirdly, the decision of my folks to move to Brazil had zilch to do with Lusostalgia, 6: Over to you for the last word. Or last many words :-) FN Dear Frederick Noronha, For a guy who behaves like a tinpot Sala_Czar i.e. dictator of GoaNet, you deserve commendation for your brilliant pseudo-response. I will accept that last-wordism is not one of your virtues; though, your dictatorial behaviour on GoaNet appears to be one of your vices. I wonder where you got the impression that anyone had suggested that you (FN) had traveled to Brazil. Do you think that most Goans are as brilliant as the GoaJournos? Do not all and sundry know (already) that you were born in Brazil? I notice your "Secondly" and "Thirdly" - Where is your "Firstly"? Oh ...so 'solly' for ignoring your 'Analysis' . I hope you will read back your own "first" semi-mild flame in this conversation. The point I was making had zilch (if I can borrow the "kaiser's" word) to do with circa 1961 (Italian Brasilian Obstetrician's comments - which you obviously heard) or your long winded revisionist explanation of the WHYs. My point was quite specific even a non-legal mind or a GoaJourno could understand it ...if he would engage his brain before running his mouth (via the keyboard)...i.e. No reasonable individual BELIEVES the liberation propaganda.(in 2009) Liberation as quite separate and apart from "liberation from the Salazarian Portuguese". Though ...I am not so sure that Goans or GoaNet have been truly liberated from Salazar. Now if this post passes the GoaNet censor . You can develop the virtue od Last-wordism and have it at the same time. jc PS: Did notice how neatly you side-stepped the questions related to the Money. Nice Try.
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 I. Nunes is glad to respond to J. Colaco: >" I am not very good at comparing apples with oranges but then, it is >possible that I did not understand clearly what you meant by your response. > How do the terms and conditions of the Pacific Islands Treaty (PITS) relate > to Goa's situation?" My reference was to the 1951 Peace in the Pacific Treaty to which Japan and the USA were signatories, following WWII. The distinction I was attempting was that nations wage war, surrender, sign peace treaties in good faith that benefits their nationals [who do not get to vote on this executive function.] Treaties that are primarily economic in nature may be put to referenda e.g. European Economic Union. The Pacific Island Treaty (PIT) that you mistakenly reference is a fishing treaty. My take was on the vanquished in wars. Yours would appear to be..tuna? best, I.Nunes *On 9/29 Nunes wrote: I. Nunes would like to comment. J. Colaco states: "Interesting then that a treaty, as important as this is made out to be, . was NOT voted upon by the very people it is made out to affect i.e. Goans." After surrendering to India in 1961, Portugal in the 1974 Treaty signed with India, accepted and acceded to India sovereignty in Goa, Daman, Diu, Dadra and Nagar Havali. Such peace treaties signed after the cessation of armed conflict are never put to the referendum with people they affect. Witness Treaties: Versailles, Peace in the Pacific, etc. It would be self defeating, don't you think? I. Nunes *** --- On Tue, 9/29/09, J. Colaco < jc> wrote: Dear I. Nunes, I am not very good at comparing apples with oranges but then, it is possible that I did not understand clearly what you meant by your response. Do advise when/if you have the time. It is well known that the Treaty of Versailles was an 'unhappy compromise" - But what does that treaty have to do with the Portugal-India 1974 treaty? Which non-warring third party's future was affected by the Treaty of Versailles? Was Goa's future involved in the 1974 treaty? IF, we say that we are pro-democracy (and against dictated rule) why would we NOT want the people to decide on their own future? Was the draft even debated in the Goa Assembly? Were Goans even consulted for input? How do the terms and conditions of the Pacific Islands Treaty (PITS) relate to Goa's situation? jc JC: "Interesting then that a treaty, as important as this is made out to be, . was NOT voted upon by the very people it is made out to affect i.e. Goans." I Nunes: Such peace treaties signed after the cessation of armed conflict are never put to the referendum with people they affect. Witness Treaties: Versailles, Peace in the Pacific, etc. It would be self defeating, don't you think?
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 That is why the WILL of the people i.e. Democracy is determined NOT by speculating on chances but by going directly to the people and asking them a very simple question. There is NO argument put forth that this "asking" should have been done in 1974; 1962 would have been a good time - unless Mario knows of an excellent reason (based on the principles of democracy) why not? Concluding an agreement, albeit 13 years after it should ideally have been conducted, does not negate the argument that it should have been done. Did East Timor not have a referendum several years after Indonesia's invasion and occupation of East Timor? Was that not worked out between Indonesia and Portugal? Reasonable people may argue that the situation in East Timor was different - we can get to that when the argument is put forth. Of course, I do understand Mario Goveia's support for invasions and occupations. j 2009/9/29 Mario Goveia Many Goan Catholics were nationalists and NOT Portuguese sycophants. CHANCES are that many Goan Hindus and Goan Muslims were nationalists as well. Therefore this suggestion that there should have been a referendum among Goans as to India's sovereignty over Goa, THIRTEEN years after the Portuguese were kicked out, and that such a referendum would have made any difference to the final status of Goa is an interesting exercise in post-facto fantasy.
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism - FN
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 Ah ha! This is something only the one and only JC can do! He will avoid "needlessly injecting" something into the debate, and then go right ahead and raise precisely those very questions which he "wants" to avoid raising :-) Welcome to the party I note that JC has neatly side-stepped the substantial issues of my post (my view of the reasons for 1961 looking less of a Liberation today, the scapegoating of others -- specially migrants -- as an excuse for all our ills, Lusostalgia, wanting the benefits of a big market but not the price, the fact that many Goans -- whether Catholic, Hindu or Muslim or whatever -- did feel suffocated under Portuguese rule and didn't shed a tear on its demise, apart from other points raised to Arwin about the famed Supreme Court judgement of Goa becoming part of India due to "invasion" or "annexation" or whatever). JC's idea of debate, of course, is firing a Kalashnikov full of questions in answer, or to at least cloud up the context! To take this debate further, I'd need to answer some of the 16 (hope I counted right) wide-ranging and unending queries, raised below! Since lastwordism isn't one of my virtues, I'll end my (non-legal :-)) submissions here. But, before that, let me disappoint JC on one specific issue -- one of the many assumptions he makes while "finding" any "evidence" whatsoever to defend his thesis. 2009/9/29 J. Colaco < jc> : > Even though Frederick Noronha has needlessly injected his parents' > personal decisions into this e-discussion, I will AVOID involving them > is this - as it will mean asking questions like: > > a: Most people who were disgusted by Salazar's dictatorship left Goa > and went to nearby places. Why did you travel to Brazil ? - Isn't > (Wasn't) Bombay or Poona closer? Closer to what? You would surely know the levels of Goan outmigration during pre-1961 times, and a statement of this kind could well be making some wrong assumptions. Secondly, I didn't travel to Brazil. I only returned from there :-) Thirdly, the decision of my folks to move to Brazil had zilch to do with Lusostalgia, or anything remotely related to that. In fact, it had more to do with the Third World economics and US capitalism's history of those times. To be specific: a US firm (Kaiser's) had finished their contract in building or restructuring the Tata's steel plant in Jamshedpur, and had a similar project coming up in Santos, Brazil. My dad was offered a job there, and that was the reason for his migration. Had the economics and manpower needs worked different, he might have gone to Timbucktoo instead, as a nun from Moira-Net [http://groups.google.com/group/moira-net] has recently done. Sorry to disappoint and question the logic of your assumptions. Over to you for the last word. Or last many words :-) FN -- FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490 Updated: http://goabooks.wordpress.com
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 Mario Goveia wrote: > To, Ashburn and Leron Pereira, > > Apparently, you are not aware of the treaty of December 31, 1974 > between Portugal and India > > http://untreaty.un.org/unts/1_6/27/28/00053352.pdf. > > The era of colonialism has long been over. Time to move on, friends. > > The corruption in Goa is because the Goans in Goa keep electing corrupt > politicians at every level. Wise up. Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:59:26 -0400 From: "J. Colaco < jc>" BTW: Anybody who brings in the "Mario Soares / Yeshwantrao Chavan organised 1974 treaty - into this argument, ipso facto concedes that this "treaty" is important. Interesting then that a treaty, as important as this is made out to be, . was NOT voted upon by the very people it is made out to affect i.e. Goans. Mario observes: a) A Treaty is defined as, "an agreement or arrangement made by negotiation" b) Treaties between nations are always important. In the treaty under reference the Portuguese accepted India's sovereignty over Goa. c) A Referendum is defined as, "the principle or practice of submitting to popular vote a measure passed on or proposed by a legislative body or by popular initiative." d) Treaties that recognize the status quo in one tiny enclave of a huge country are not generally subject to Referendums by the locals in that tiny enclave. That would allow the tail to wag the dog. Many Goan Catholics were nationalists and NOT Portuguese sycophants. Chances are that many Goan Hindus and Goan Muslims were nationalists as well. Therefore this suggestion that there should have been a referendum among Goans as to India's sovereignty over Goa, THIRTEEN years after the Portuguese were kicked out, and that such a referendum would have made any difference to the final status of Goa is an interesting exercise in post-facto fantasy. As I said before, "The era of colonialism has long been over. Time to move on, friends."
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 Dear I. Nunes, I am not very good at comparing apples with oranges but then, it is possible that I did not understand clearly what you meant by your response. Do advise when/if you have the time. It is well known that the Treaty of Versailles was an 'unhappy compromise" - But what does that treaty have to do with the Portugal-India 1974 treaty? Which non-warring third party's future was affected by the Treaty of Versailles? Was Goa's future involved in the 1974 treaty? IF, we say that we are pro-democracy (and against dictated rule) why would we NOT want the people to decide on their own future? Was the draft even debated in the Goa Assembly? Were Goans even consulted for input? How do the terms and conditions of the Pacific Islands Treaty (PITS) relate to Goa's situation? jc JC: "Interesting then that a treaty, as important as this is made out to be, . was NOT voted upon by the very people it is made out to affect i.e. Goans." I Nunes: Such peace treaties signed after the cessation of armed conflict are never put to the referendum with people they affect. Witness Treaties: Versailles, Peace in the Pacific, etc. It would be self defeating, don't you think?
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism - FN
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 Even though Frederick Noronha has needlessly injected his parents' personal decisions into this e-discussion, I will AVOID involving them is this - as it will mean asking questions like: a: Most people who were disgusted by Salazar's dictatorship left Goa and went to nearby places. Why did you travel to Brazil ? - Isn't (Wasn't) Bombay or Poona closer? b: What qualifications did you have to survive in Brazil ? c: How did you plan to support yourself and your family in a new land? d: What did you do in Brazil? e: etc etc. FN gives us the snippet of what the Brazilian (Italian) doctor is reported to have said in 1960-something. Is that the example FN gives to counter the assertion that "no sensible person BELIEVES in the 'Liberation' propaganda". Believes (present tense) as in 2009? And on what basis does FN equate (fully) the terms "Liberation" with "Liberation from the Portuguese"? Are they really the same? I do not believe so - even though reasonable people might justifiably disagree with me on this point. Granted that there is rampant corruption in Goa today, I ask you to consider the following: 1: How much does Goa earn from taxation? 2: What happens to it? 3: How much does Goa earn from tourism? 4: How are those funds accounted for? 5: What really went down with the transfer of Anjediva to the military? 6: Why is the military occupying central places in Ponnje? 7: Why are "liberated" Goans not allowed to worship at the church in Anjediva? 8: What sort of discussion took place with Goans before the above restrictions were placed in situ? There are others but I will stop and wait for your enlightened responses. jc Frederick Noronha wrote: JC is as far as the truth as the distance between the Bahamas and Goa when he says "no sensible person BELIEVES in the 'Liberation' propaganda". A large bulk of Goans, including all those who had been actively excluded (or deprived) of been part of the tiny priviledged classes in colonial times have accepted the demise of Portuguese rule in Goa without as much as a tear. My brother was being born on this day, in Brazil. An Italian doctor told my mum, even as she had delivered, "Your country is free." My parents were among those who returned back, enthusiastic.
[Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 Goans know that since 61 all the ghantis can come to Goa, this is not a new story. What like minded Goan Arwin Mesquita is saying that this has to stop. In other bharat places such as Andaman island, Arunachal Pradesh, Nagaland etc, bharatis are prohibited from migrating to these places. Bakar Jose sozmol kitre? BC Understand me again, Arwin: Every Indian citizen has the right to be in Goa.yes every one of the 1.extra billion of them. The ONLY legal action that Goans can take .is prevent them from squatting in public land and making a public nuisance etc. For this the existing law has to be enforced..even if it means relative 'Poverty' for the Goa "babus" and "policia". What are the chances of that happening?
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 I. Nunes would like to comment. J. Colaco states: "Interesting then that a treaty, as important as this is made out to be, . was NOT voted upon by the very people it is made out to affect i.e. Goans." After surrendering to India in 1961, Portugal in the 1974 Treaty signed with India, accepted and acceded to India sovereignty in Goa, Daman, Diu, Dadra and Nagar Havali. Such peace treaties signed after the cessation of armed conflict are never put to the referendum with people they affect. Witness Treaties: Versailles, Peace in the Pacific, etc. It would be self defeating, don't you think? I. Nunes --- On Mon, 9/28/09, J. Colaco < jc> wrote: Let's accept this in preface: Goa is 100% part of India. Nothing is going to change that fact anytime soon. I can understand Arwin's position (nay predicament). After months of being in denial that the Indian Constitution (as is) will NOT prevent ANY Indian citizen from entering, working or residing in Goa, Arwin has probably seen the light. Hence, he is now on this "clutching straw" argument that India's Supreme Court ruled that India 'conquered' Goa. My question: So what? Is not Goa part of India? OK then ...let's move on. No sensible person believes the "Liberation" propaganda. India won, Portugal lost .and went home. That is what the losing party does. Understand me again, Arwin: Every Indian citizen has the right to be in Goa.yes every one of the 1.extra billion of them. The ONLY legal action that Goans can take .is prevent them from squatting in public land and making a public nuisance etc. For this the existing law has to be enforced..even if it means relative 'Poverty' for the Goa "babus" and "policia". What are the chances of that happening? BTW: Anybody who brings in the "Mario Soares / Yeshwantrao Chavan organised 1974 treaty - into this argument, ipso facto concedes that this "treaty" is important. Interesting then that a treaty, as important as this is made out to be, . was NOT voted upon by the very people it is made out to affect i.e. Goans. jc http://untreaty.un.org/unts/1_6/27/28/00053352.pdf.
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
INTERACTIVE DISCUSSION: Alternative Publishing - Is it viable to traditional publishing? WHERE: Art Lounge - Sunaparanta, Near Lar de Estudantes, Altinho, Panaji WHEN: September 30, 2009 - 5:30pm http://www.facebook.com/n/?event.php&eid=146588805806&mid=12a68daG1df3c3d3G2ac936fG7 > From: Arwin Mesquita > http://www.oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=27786&cid=13 > *Indian colonialism" by Ashburn and Leron Pereira, Porvorim > [ According to the landmark judgment delivered by the Supreme Court, > Goa was conquered by India and not liberated from the Portuguese. > Also, > according to the UN resolution 1514 (XV), Goa is listed as invaded. We > have now undergone 47 years of corrupt Indian colonial rule over our > Goa.] Which Supreme Court case is being referred to here? Is it Rev. Mons. Sebastiao Francisco Xavier dos Remedios Monteiro v. The State of Goa, Supreme Court of India, 26 March 1969 All India Reporter 1970 SC 329. And, if so, is this an attempt to confuse things? Are we mixing up legal interpretations of the meaning of the terms "occupation" and "annexation" in international law (and also other legalese such as "true" annexation and "premature" annexation) with the commonly-understood political and layman's understandings of the terms? This matter, which much is being made of today for political purposes, came up just tangentially in the case. It was held in the judgement: "The Geneva Conventions ceased to apply after December 20, 1961. The Indian Government offered Rev. Father Monteiro Indian nationality and citizenship which he refused and retained his Portuguese nationality. As a Portuguese national he could only stay in India on taking out a permit. He was, therefore, rightly prosecuted under the law applicable to him. Since no complaint is made about the trial as such, the appeal must fail. It will be dismissed." The debate certainly wasn't between being "conquered" or "liberated", as Arwin's post suggests. It was a legal question over whether someone holding a Portuguese passport had the right to demand to stay on in Goa on his terms, or follow the changed law in force here. The term "annexation" has been used in the Gosalia vs. Agarwal case too. But why make so much about a legal term (when the courts can't obviously use a political term like Liberation)? And why quote just one UN resolution, when the entire tone in those times (as now) was against the continuation of European colonalism across the globe right into the late 20th century? (Okay, you could argue that other forms of colonialism, within our countries and within our states, do continue to rule, but that's another debate... and shouldn't be used as a justification of the past form of colonialism.) 2009/9/29 J. Colaco < jc> : > No sensible person believes the "Liberation" propaganda. India won, > Portugal lost .and went home. That is what the losing party does. JC is as far as the truth as the distance between the Bahamas and Goa when he says "no sensible person believes in the 'Liberation' propaganda". A large bulk of Goans, including all those who had been actively excluded (or deprived) of been part of the tiny priviledged classes in colonial times have accepted the demise of Portuguese rule in Goa without as much as a tear. My brother was being born on this day, in Brazil. An Italian doctor told my mum, even as she had delivered, "Your country is free." My parents were among those who returned back, enthusiastic. Of course, they soon found a Goa where jobs were scarce, there was still no electricity in the villages (it came only in the 1970s), and the infrastructure was far more terrible as it is now. But that's another story It is another fact altogether that a growing number today would like to have the fruits of economic growth and consumerism and being part of a wider 1-point-something billion strong market -- without paying the costs for it. It cannot be denied that the current debate is also shaped by the misrule and corruption/communalism of local politicians (and the lobbies who are the tails which wag the political dog, whether local and national and global), together with the growing Lusostalgia. This makes the past look "good and old" over time is also making a growing number complain and assume that the problem can be wished away by scapegoating (mostly poor) migrants, fuelling communalism, or whatever. FN -- FN +91-9822122436 P +91-832-2409490 Updated: http://goabooks.wordpress.com
Re: [Goanet] Indian colonialism
Let's accept this in preface: Goa is 100% part of India. Nothing is going to change that fact anytime soon. I can understand Arwin's position (nay predicament). After months of being in denial that the Indian Constitution (as is) will NOT prevent ANY Indian citizen from entering, working or residing in Goa, Arwin has probably seen the light. Hence, he is now on this "clutching straw" argument that India's Supreme Court ruled that India 'conquered' Goa. My question: So what? Is not Goa part of India? OK then ...let's move on. No sensible person believes the "Liberation" propaganda. India won, Portugal lost .and went home. That is what the losing party does. Understand me again, Arwin: Every Indian citizen has the right to be in Goa.yes every one of the 1.extra billion of them. The ONLY legal action that Goans can take .is prevent them from squatting in public land and making a public nuisance etc. For this the existing law has to be enforced..even if it means relative 'Poverty' for the Goa "babus" and "policia". What are the chances of that happening? BTW: Anybody who brings in the "Mario Soares / Yeshwantrao Chavan organised 1974 treaty - into this argument, ipso facto concedes that this "treaty" is important. Interesting then that a treaty, as important as this is made out to be, . was NOT voted upon by the very people it is made out to affect i.e. Goans. jc From: Arwin Mesquita http://www.oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=27786&cid=13 *Indian colonialism" by Ashburn and Leron Pereira, Porvorim [ According to the landmark judgment delivered by the Supreme Court, Goa was conquered by India and not liberated from the Portuguese. Also, according to the UN resolution 1514 (XV), Goa is listed as invaded. We have now undergone 47 years of corrupt Indian colonial rule over our Goa.] Mario Goveia responds: To, Ashburn and Leron Pereira, Apparently, you are not aware of the treaty of December 31, 1974 between Portugal and India http://untreaty.un.org/unts/1_6/27/28/00053352.pdf.
[Goanet] Indian colonialism
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:45:46 +0400 From: Arwin Mesquita http://www.oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=27786&cid=13 *Indian colonialism Ashburn and Leron Pereira, Porvorim Quote: According to the landmark judgment delivered by the Supreme Court, Goa was conquered by India and not liberated from the Portuguese. Also, according to the UN resolution 1514 (XV), Goa is listed as invaded. We have now undergone 47 years of corrupt Indian colonial rule over our Goa. Mario responds: To, Ashburn and Leron Pereira, Apparently, you are not aware of the treaty of December 31, 1974 between Portugal and India http://untreaty.un.org/unts/1_6/27/28/00053352.pdf. The era of colonialism has long been over. Time to move on, friends. The corruption in Goa is because the Goans in Goa keep electing corrupt politicians at every level. Wise up.
[Goanet] Indian colonialism
http://www.oheraldo.in/pagedetails.asp?nid=27786&cid=13 *Indian colonialism Ashburn and Leron Pereira, Porvorim *Arwin Mesquita, in his letter ‘Review Goa’s Liberation (Herald, 22 Sep) says that “we need to have an urgent post-liberation analysis of Goa”. Was Goa liberated or conquered? During the 1500s India never existed as a separate country. The Indian subcontinent under the British Raj basically consisted of British India and the Princely states. India came into existence only after the British left in 1947. No one is in doubt that the Portuguese conquered Goa in the 1500s. Before that, Goa was in a state of constant siege. The Portuguese gave Goa stability after they took over and put up a valiant front against the enemy forces, till the invasion and expulsion by India’s troops in December 1961. According to the landmark judgment delivered by the Supreme Court, Goa was ‘conquered’ by India and not ‘liberated’ from the Portuguese. Also, according to the UN resolution 1514 (XV), Goa is listed as ‘invaded’. We have now undergone 47 years of corrupt Indian colonial rule over our Goa. -- Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/ Please also see below: 1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/ 2. "Rape of Goa" : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/ 3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/ 4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO: http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html 5. For the Love of Konkani: http://www.radiogoa.net/ 6. Goa's Identity Movement website: http://www.goamag.net/gim
