Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism/to FN
--- Frederick [FN] Noron ha * फà¥à¤°à¥à¤¡ रिठन à¥à¤°à¥à¤à¤¯à¤¾ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 17/11/2007, Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I'm one of those people who is unduly perturbed by issues of hygiene, sewage, sanitation, changing tables at airport restrooms etc. I cannot stand people defecating in public. Hmmm... it does sound very unusual and rare! Coming to think of it, Selma, I don't know many people like you. Do they still make them in our planet? FN --- Hmmm FN, Sarcasm as a form of wit should be used only by those who can do so brilliantly. Oscar Wilde and Bernard Shaw, yes. You umm, in the words of Borat, not so much. selma Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism (RKN)
I guess your'e just jealous of the good life the ancient Nairs had, Dr JC! :-) Cheers, RKN Thank you GMail for storing the MANY episodes of conversation between jc and rkn which do not mention the awful Nair suppression of lower caste women in Kerala.
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism (RKN)
On 18/11/2007, Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess your'e just jealous of the good life the ancient Nairs had, Dr JC! :-) jc's response: You call that good life ? I do not believe that anyone can truly have a 'good life' by abusing and demeaning another. Perhaps RKN believes otherwise. jc Thank you GMail for storing the MANY episodes of conversation between jc and rkn which do not mention the awful Nair suppression of lower caste women in Kerala.
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism/to RKN
--- Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Selma has not directly commented on my post, but I do see signs of a change of heart. What say, Selma? - Dear RKN, The reason I did not respond to your post directly was because I do not like to take (or rake) issue with people who I generally hold in good standing. We can all agree to disagree amicably. Perhaps I'm one of those people who is unduly perturbed by issues of hygiene, sewage, sanitation, changing tables at airport restrooms etc. I cannot stand people defecating in public. I once had the most unpleasant experience of seeing a child doing a big job just outside the Basilica of St. Xavier. To me that was like a stake plunged into my heart. Goans are grappling with a multitude of problems. Oft times it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. selma Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism/to RKN
Don't worry, Selma! I do understand your viewpoint. It's not as if Fred and I are too pleased with the squalor and disorderliness that we witness all around us. But my point is that it's better to deal with the problem on the ground rather than just bleating about it in cyberspace and ridiculing the unfortunate perpetrators. And, believe me, we're succeeding in our own modest way. Chennai is now far less squalid than it was when I landed here a decade ago. I'm sure the situation in Goa will improve too, if its citizens apply pressure on the civic authorities and come forward to bear the expenses. Going hammer and tongs at poor migrant labourers is no solution at all. The employers who bring them to Goa should be made to provide proper housing and sanitation facilities to them. But it will take some time, especially because it's very difficult to change people's mindsets, for us to achieve acceptable standards. Please bear with us till then! And I'm flattered to know that you hold me in good standing :-) Regards, RKN On 11/17/07, Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Selma has not directly commented on my post, but I do see signs of a change of heart. What say, Selma? - Dear RKN, The reason I did not respond to your post directly was because I do not like to take (or rake) issue with people who I generally hold in good standing. We can all agree to disagree amicably. Perhaps I'm one of those people who is unduly perturbed by issues of hygiene, sewage, sanitation, changing tables at airport restrooms etc. I cannot stand people defecating in public. I once had the most unpleasant experience of seeing a child doing a big job just outside the Basilica of St. Xavier. To me that was like a stake plunged into my heart. Goans are grappling with a multitude of problems. Oft times it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. selma Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism
We also have to imbibe the skills of keeping our countries as clean as Switzerland, and dump our toxic plants in the Third World, while at the same time also garnering all the ill-gotten wealth from dictators that rule the south (in numbered bank accounts) while at the same time preaching morals. We have a long way to go maan! FN On 16/11/2007, Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And this time I find myself in complete agreement with Fred, especially his comment: One day we might become as dirty as them... -- Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org Ph 0091-832-2409490 12000+ downloadable, sharable hi-res photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism/to RKN
We do agree with RKN when he says: I'm sure the situation in Goa will improve too, if its citizens apply pressure on the civic authorities and come forward to bear the expenses And we sympathise with dear Selma when she says: To me that was like a stake plunged into my heart But then if RKN is taken seriously, this would mean that the taxes that Goans pay through their noses are not counted and that they should bleed more to make the framers of laws (read legislators) to do what they are supposed to do. We at goasuraj say: Forget about paying more Because, if only the good people of GOA would cast their votes diligently, semblance of 'order' could be had for free. In this connection we invite RKN to check-out Chapter [XVI] of our 'Road Map for Goa' captioned ' Employment Labour' floriano goasuraj - Original Message - From: Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism/to RKN Don't worry, Selma! I do understand your viewpoint. It's not as if Fred and I are too pleased with the squalor and disorderliness that we witness all around us. But my point is that it's better to deal with the problem on the ground rather than just bleating about it in cyberspace and ridiculing the unfortunate perpetrators. And, believe me, we're succeeding in our own modest way. Chennai is now far less squalid than it was when I landed here a decade ago. I'm sure the situation in Goa will improve too, if its citizens apply pressure on the civic authorities and come forward to bear the expenses. Going hammer and tongs at poor migrant labourers is no solution at all. The employers who bring them to Goa should be made to provide proper housing and sanitation facilities to them. But it will take some time, especially because it's very difficult to change people's mindsets, for us to achieve acceptable standards. Please bear with us till then! And I'm flattered to know that you hold me in good standing :-) Regards, RKN On 11/17/07, Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Selma has not directly commented on my post, but I do see signs of a change of heart. What say, Selma? - Dear RKN, The reason I did not respond to your post directly was because I do not like to take (or rake) issue with people who I generally hold in good standing. We can all agree to disagree amicably. Perhaps I'm one of those people who is unduly perturbed by issues of hygiene, sewage, sanitation, changing tables at airport restrooms etc. I cannot stand people defecating in public. I once had the most unpleasant experience of seeing a child doing a big job just outside the Basilica of St. Xavier. To me that was like a stake plunged into my heart. Goans are grappling with a multitude of problems. Oft times it's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. selma Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/147 - Release Date: 10/24/05
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism/to RKN
On 17/11/2007, Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I'm one of those people who is unduly perturbed by issues of hygiene, sewage, sanitation, changing tables at airport restrooms etc. I cannot stand people defecating in public. Hmmm... it does sound very unusual and rare! Coming to think of it, Selma, I don't know many people like you. Do they still make them in our planet? FN
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism (RKN)
On 16/11/2007, Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr JC as usual,. can never engage in a converstion with me, either public or private, without raking up some Nair history and assorted humbug. jc's response: 1: Thank you GMail for storing the MANY episodes of conversation between jc and rkn which do not mention the awful Nair suppression of lower caste women in Kerala. 2: I can understand RKN's confusion or selective memory. For quite some time, RKN thought that JC was Bernado Colaco! Ew! 3: But let us not worry about JC I ask...Is it OK for RKN to refer to the past when discussing the present (wrt Westerm Toilet habits) but not OK for C to remind RKN about the ridiculous nature of his comparing by refering to the Mair oppression of lower caste women ? jc
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism ani sogle
* GOANET C * O * M * M * U * N * I * T * Y E * V * E * N * T * Xavier Center of Historical Research presents HISTORY HOUR TOPIC: Waste Wise - An Interactive Awareness Presentation on Waste Management in Goa SPEAKER: Clinton Vaz - November 16, 2007 - 5:30pm VISIT: http://tinyurl.com/222757 --- Frederick [FN] Noron ha * फà¥à¤°à¥à¤¡ रिठन à¥à¤°à¥à¤à¤¯à¤¾ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or the collapse of infrastructure here, thanks to corruption, overconsumptiion (by the affluent, that Dr Oscar talks about) and probably even aggravated by our own sanctimonous blame-someone-else approaches of barking up the wrong tree. RESPONSE: Dear FN, I seldom respond point for point but I will on subject because rest assured I take matters of hygiene and sanitation very seriously. The diseases caused by fecal matter getting into our food supply are debilitating and often fatal, but easily avoidable. One can just as easily rail against the affluent as one can pillory the poor. To vaguely paraphrase Bertrand Russell, I have as much derision for (unbridled) capitalism as I have from communism. In Goa, by a strange combine of corrupt politicians and left-wing NGOs working not in tandem but as opposing forces, we've managed to detract capital coming into the State but encourage labour camps. Goa is accosted by 21st century problems of garbage disposal, poor road infrastructure, improper sanitation, inadequate health care, sub-standard educational institutions. Resolving them will take huge outlays of capital. Where do we propose this capital to come from? Frederick writes: Selma, do you know of journalists who rush to Hotel Mandovi (and face the related embarassment) to visit rest rooms when they run into an emergency? RESPONSE: No Frederick, I don't know of any such journalists but I'd like to get to know them :-) Frederick writes: But there are no global standards. What you're used to in the West would probably not be attained even in our dreams here. So hanging someone caught on the camera might seem the apt thing to do, but is it? Response: Global standards for hygiene? How about standards that respect human dignity and save millions of lives each year. I was reading up on sanitation in India, and interestingly one of the reasons reform has not taken place in this aspect is precisely because the middle-class has not pushed for any. They've been silent because afterall they are the recipients of better health-care. So ironically, the very act that you are trying to excuse causes repercussions for the poor rather than anyone else. When we absolve people of their most basic responsibilities, we rob them of their own dignity and infer that they cannot be re-educated to a better standard of living. In my lifetime, I don't hope to see India resolving its problems but I do hope in my life to see it make a start. India doesn't have the luxury of wallowing in self-pity. We have to make changes, sometimes motivated by the carrot and oft motivated by the stick. When it comes to open defecation especially in a tourist town like Panjim, where crores of income depend on its aesthetic appeal, using the stick maybe the only option available in the short run. selma Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism
* GOANET C * O * M * M * U * N * I * T * Y E * V * E * N * T * Xavier Center of Historical Research presents HISTORY HOUR TOPIC: Waste Wise - An Interactive Awareness Presentation on Waste Management in Goa SPEAKER: Clinton Vaz - November 16, 2007 - 5:30pm VISIT: http://tinyurl.com/222757 Hi RKN: I was referring to the 'Western' ability to grab large chunks of landmass and then fence themselves out in islands of prosperity while consuming 50 times what an average Indian does (even if many of us are not average, average!). But your point is valid indeed. One day we might become as dirty as them, the current problems with toilets notwithstanding. FN On 15/11/2007, Radhakrishnan Nair [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred to Selma: What you're used to in the West would probably not be attained even in our dreams here. Don't be so diffident, Fred. Since when have the Westerners become so conscious of hygiene? In the 18th and 19th centuries American farms were malodorous pigsties. Indeed, in the early days of the railways in Britain, even Her Majesty the Queen on her journeys to Wales and -- Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org Ph 0091-832-2409490 12000+ downloadable, sharable hi-res photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
[Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism
* GOANET C * O * M * M * U * N * I * T * Y E * V * E * N * T * Xavier Center of Historical Research presents HISTORY HOUR TOPIC: Waste Wise - An Interactive Awareness Presentation on Waste Management in Goa SPEAKER: Clinton Vaz - November 16, 2007 - 5:30pm VISIT: http://tinyurl.com/222757 Dear Radhakrishnan, Every person lives and thrives within an unique reality and existential contexts. Over time we get repulsed with certain acts, which we may see differently from the past, and in newer situations (lack of facilities, amenities, politics, social engineering). Fred elaborated and articulated well. So Fred pointing out to Selma; is not him being diffident. Unless you preferred that he totally light into Selma. This innocuous word has a range of meanings, from lacking in self-confidence, shy or timid, being restrained; to also include its archaic meaning -- distrustful. I do not think this is what you meant. We, the reasonably educated, knows about the despicable standards of western hygiene of the recent centuries. Those who have keen interest in the Humanities would certainly have better and broader knowledge. You are absolutely right in that, and its good to point such facts. But, to dovetail that piece of splendid fact and truth, with Freds comments to Selma is thoroughly out of context. It comes across as Fred having a lack of awareness and common knowledge of the Western realities. I have a feeling that FNs post must have come across as him being a curmudgeon. But he laid out his points, and I am sure Selma saw it in positive light. Fred is not daft, and Selma, although aggrieved is brilliant. Her hurt comes through because she is so far away and to put it colloquially shit is happenin in Goa. Selma incidentally, has displayed the unique grace of responding to rectify matters in a way, in my mind, no one on this Net has ever done. For one, she responded to Rajan and apologized for attributing xenophobia to him. That is not a joke. She is pretty rock solid. (OK, I have divined that). This is not against you Radhakrishnan. And it should not appear as PC, if by remote chance it comes across as such to Netters. Our views sometimes give license to others who are impelled towards frivolous comments, which detract from the original thoughts and clarifications. Venantius RKN wrote: Subject: Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism Fred to Selma: What you're used to in the West would probably not be attained even in our dreams here. Don't be so diffident, Fred. Since when have the Westerners become so conscious of hygiene? In the 18th and 19th centuries American farms were malodorous pigsties. Indeed, in the early days of the railways in Britain, even Her Majesty the Queen on her journeys to Wales and Scotland went into the bushes abutting the tracks with a tumbler of water and reams of toilet tissues in hand to unload her royal bowels! But then it's always easy to poke fun at the poor and the defenceless -- as if they are doing it for fun and not because they're being exploited and left to their own devices without even basic amenities. Regards, RKN --
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism
* GOANET C * O * M * M * U * N * I * T * Y E * V * E * N * T * Xavier Center of Historical Research presents HISTORY HOUR TOPIC: Waste Wise - An Interactive Awareness Presentation on Waste Management in Goa SPEAKER: Clinton Vaz - November 16, 2007 - 5:30pm VISIT: http://tinyurl.com/222757 Thank you all for sharing your thoughts on my post in this thread. I particularly appreciate the cultured and thoughtful post from Venatius, the kind of which is indeed rare on Goanet these days. And this time I find myself in complete agreement with Fred, especially his comment: One day we might become as dirty as them... Selma has not directly commented on my post, but I do see signs of a change of heart. What say, Selma? As for Dr JC's rants, as usual, it was on expected lines. He can never engage in a converstion with me, either public or private, without raking up some Nair history and assorted humbug. Anyways, I guess, it has been a lively and relatively placid discussion by Goanet standards. Cheers, RKN
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism
On 14/11/2007, Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Getting back to the turd donor, no, I didn't look to see whether he had a briefcase parked next to his deposit near the Mandovi. The point I was making was that he was quite well dressed and not a vagrant off the streets. So this isn't about available toilet facilities. It is infact, exactly what Rajan makes it out to be; par for the course. And since the devil is also allowed to quote scripture, let the person who had not peed in public cast the first stone! Selma's out of touch, and fails to see this as part of the reflection of the acute lack of public toilets and rest rooms in Goa. Or the collapse of infrastructure here, thanks to corruption, overconsumptiion (by the affluent, that Dr Oscar talks about) and probably even aggravated by our own sanctimonous blame-someone-else approaches of barking up the wrong tree. Selma, do you know of journalists who rush to Hotel Mandovi (and face the related embarassment) to visit rest rooms when they run into an emergency? Haven't we all, as kids, peed into fields in front of our schools? Tell me, what do you do when you're at a park or musical concert, and your kid feels the need to relieve himself or herself urgently? I'm not justifying a lack of hygiene and sanitation solutions. But there are no global standards. What you're used to in the West would probably not be attained even in our dreams here. So hanging someone caught on the camera might seem the apt thing to do, but is it? In what way are we superior to the migrants we take perverse pleasure in deriding? Sanitation remains a huge issue in India, important enough for a Gandhi to take it on. We need more Dr. Bindeshwar Pathaks here. See [http://www.sulabhinternational.org/] In Goa, we had our pigs. We are caught at the twlight hour between the death of the traditional way of doing things and the slow and long-delayed birth of 'modernisation'. Of course, I'm not one of those who keeps singing praises to the latter. Our pigs have gone; who will take care of the sanitation? Politicians like Shashikala Kakodkar, I recall, would raise the issue in terms of pigs running through the temples. It's easy to score points, but we don't know the long term implications of our populist ethnic-based or communal-fractured gerrymandering. All of us need to visit a toilet; some of us are infortunate enough to get photographed; the others believe our sh*t don't stink! Comeon guys, can't you see how bull-headed and moralistic we are getting over this? Time to acknowledge that half of Goa gets its sh*t cleaned by the migrant poor. Let's not pillory them by judging them on the basis of standards we find convenient! By all means, we need better sanitation here; but nobody has a monopoly over fouling up the place in a situation where sanitation is lacking. FN -- Frederick Noronha http://fn.goa-india.org Ph 0091-832-2409490 12000+ downloadable, sharable hi-res photos http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/
[Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism
Once again Selma cardoso , as is the norm,sensationalizes things to score some cheap talleo..i submit that the person in question was not a office goer, not dressed like a office goer and did not have a briefcase. if memory serves me right Carmo has used the word dukor beofre and had attracted a round of criticism and i am sure selma must have shouted the loudest honestly this appaling hypocrisy is geting nauseating now..give us a break selma ! b Get easy, one-click access to your favorites. Make Yahoo! your homepage. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Re: [Goanet] Selma 's sensationalism
--- Bhandare [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once again Selma cardoso , as is the norm,sensationalizes things to score some cheap talleo..i submit that the person in question was not a office goer, not dressed like a office goer and did not have a briefcase. honestly this appaling hypocrisy is geting nauseating now..give us a break selma ! b Dear B, Just because Rajan signs off his name as R, I see you've taken to signing off your name as B. While, Rajan Narayan could sell ice to Eskimos, you on the other hand will find it hard to melt butter in your mouth, so stop trying to emulate people whose shoes you can't stand in, let alone fill. Now, it's interesting that everyday you seem to want to put my name in the subject line. As much as I enjoy gazing into my self-proclaimed pond of greatness, I assure you even my narcissism doesn't extend to the the extent you presume it to be. Getting back to the turd donor, no, I didn't look to see whether he had a briefcase parked next to his deposit near the Mandovi. The point I was making was that he was quite well dressed and not a vagrant off the streets. So this isn't about available toilet facilities. It is infact, exactly what Rajan makes it out to be; par for the course. Lastly, your concern here is quite touching. I'm very impressed that you feel so inclined to take up for him, when all this while you've been calling them ghatis, bhaile, Muslim terrorist setting up dens, etc. I take it, your loyalties and principles are guided by the same winds that carry a strong whiff off that Mandovi River eh? selma Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
