Re: [Goanet] MOI- will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear Dr Desai, I like the way you marshalled your facts to lead upto a certain point. I would still think your labelling some institutions as Catholic dominated and others as not Hindu dominated does indeed betray bias. Why does the average Goan (and the highly educated Goan too) continue to think in the paradigm of the 1960s or worse still, the sixteenth century? Personally, I think that prioritising a religious identity over all other identities we possess (gender, class, race, caste, language, skin colour, blood group etc) is part of the identity of communalism. And, of course, we can selectively pick and choose facts to make our case, but I would prefer not to stray into that game. As the election 'vaaro' hots up for 2012, I guess we can only expect more of this to come our way, both at Ground Zero in Goa and in cyberspace! FN On 4 December 2011 15:55, anil desai anild...@gmail.com wrote: That Goanet is catholic dominated is a statement of fact.You are much closer to Goanet being one of the Administrators and Moderators. So, please answer the following questions: What is the religion of the owner of goanet? What percentage of the moderators are catholic? What percentage of contributors to Goanet are catholic? Why are Hindu contributors who try to contribute regularly driven out? e.g. Anand Virgincar, Chinmay Bhandare. Why are secular catholics such as Mario Goveia driven out from Goanet? Why are people like Carmo(I believe that is his name) who supported Parrikar and the BJP pilloried on this forum? --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear Dr Desai, While ignoring the flame-baits and all attempts to personalise the debate, I would like point to the politics of your language. * Pseudo-secularist has been effectively used as a cover for communalism by the majoritarian party which is today blocking dissent space by claiming to be the Opposition. * Catholic-dominated is a reflection of a certain disdain for diversity. (By the same logic, would you define Goa as Hindu-dominated? Never mind the fact that treating religious communities as monoliths is self-delusionary at best or an attempt at deliberately creating confusion in the debate.) My point is that election once in five years, fought on polarised lines, are not the best indicator of what the citizenry wants. Everyone is voting with their feet, when they go to English-medium schools. For politicians to stake the future of the State and rabble rouse over this is understandable. But for an educated person, to lend justification to this thinking? Did you feel the same when you were a proud student (I guess) of Loyola's Margao [http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg23390.html] Or do you feel that only that lesser plebians deserve no access to an English education? As for your last query, the attempt to banish English from Goa's primary education is a gift from both writers in our regional languages (who believe the best way to promote a language is to push it down the throat of a reluctant populace) and also the PDF khidchi, with our beloved Tayee Shashikala Kakodkar as education minister, and a whole lot of honourable others (Churchill Alemao, Luis Proto Barbosa, etc) making use of their brief stint in power to feather their own nests. You will find one interpretation here: http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2011-April/207622.html Regards, FN Dear Shri Noronha, First of all, I thank you for your gentlemanly response to a serious point that I made refraining from the usual BJP, saffron references that are good to score amongst atheist catholics and other pseudo-secular( a term invented by Advani, by the way) contributors to this catholic dominated forum. Your first two statements show the problem with your logic.In the first post you say that the support for English is near universal and yet in the second post you ask whether such issues are best sorted by the tyranny of the majority. Can you see the problem in this? As a communist, your reference to democracy as tyranny of the majority is understandable.. You would rather have the decision of a 'politburo' than democratic support of majority of the citizens voting at an election. By the way can you inform us all as to which government decided that Goan children should have primary education in a local language and secondary education in English? Was it Kangress? Was it UGP, UGDP, SG? --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
This is really where all that contempt for neo-learners of English and foreign languages lead us to... willy-nilly. FN On 30 November 2011 13:00, anil desai anild...@gmail.com wrote: This was reported in the Herald today. Anil Desai BBSM demands govt’s dismissal for violating High Court order BBSM demands govt’s dismissal for violating High Court order TEAM HERALD teamher...@herald-goa.com PANJIM: Bharatiya Bhasha Suraksha Manch (BBSM) Tuesday mounted an attack on State Government, demanding its dismissal for violating High Court order, on Medium of Instruction (MoI) issue. --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
In response to the above query from Anil Desai, I'd submit the following possible answers: I believe that Anil's Kangress should and will IF the BhojePee will include Support for the following into their manifesto: 1: Enforced Bandhs 2: Bussing of folks for contrived events 3: Compulsory education for Goan Katlicks in the Hyper-Sanskritized Awful sounding nasal dialect of Dongri Marathi aka Cocknee 4: Mandatory swadeshification of Goan Katlicks 5: Induction of a 1000 more Goa Freedom Fighters (with benefits and housing in Salcete) from among the ranks of yet to be born children of frothing out of state party workers. 6: etc --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
On 30 November 2011 16:48, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Having said that, I fully understand your indignation at Anil Desai's post. To corrupt my argument with his usual saffroni masala and tumeric paste is not a new trick. For the record, I fully support the Goan Catholic's desire to learn in the English medium. My only point is that learning must be robust and aided in every respect by the government and not left to the faulty methods of aging grandparents or nannies. (1) It is not a Goan Catholic desire. The desire is near universal, and widely seen all over Goa, regardless of religion or class and caste, not excluding the Anil Desais. (2) From Standard V onwards, in Goa itself, education is conducted 99% through the medium of English today. The ire against primary medium education in that language is about political, if not communal, motives. (3) The State *is* aiding in every respect education in what Santosh calls the foreign language of English. The politicisation at the primary level is a post-1991 development. On what basis could anyone claim that the task is being left to aging grandparents or nannies? (4) Learning any language has to be a mix of one's own initiatives, support structures in the form of non-official or non-profit institutions, for-profit initiatives, and official support. We can't depend on the last alone, and if we feel this is a priority need to work on it. Some are already earning a little by teaching English or other foreign languages, for instance: http://www.esl-languages.com/en/adults/learn/english/goa/india/index.htm http://www.iegoa.com/ http://goa.click.in/classifieds/education-learning/1/74/language-classes.html http://www.global-english.com/travel-teach-english-in/India/ http://yellowpages.sulekha.com/goa/coaching-training/coaching-tuitions/spoken-english/539.htm http://www.asklaila.com/search/Goa/Goa%20velha/Learn%20english/?searchNearby=falsev=listing Not sure how effectively these work though... FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
Dear Frederick, You are being a contrarian for the sake of it. This brings to mind a Konkani saying loosely translated to mean, you can't change the tail of a dog not even if you shoot it through a cannon. I have run out of steam to debate any further. The attitude of Goans in any case can best be described by another famous Konkani saying, loosely translated as whose father, what goes. So I end with bon noite from W. Drayton. Best, Selma --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
On 30 November 2011 22:47, anil desai anild...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest to you that one way of making that decision democratic would be to put it in the party manifesto for the next elections in Goa. We would all then know if a majority of Goans support this idea. Doctor, Are you suggesting that such issues are best sorted out by the tyranny of the majority? Ideally, elections could be taken as a reflection of public opinion. (By that yardstick, Congress is today still more acceptable than BJP, god forbid!) But you know the reality in Goa. Way back since the first elections in 1963, politics has been fought largely on communally-tinged lines. The MGP did it, the UGP did it (less successfully). I won't blame the BJP alone, even the Congress plays its (less-apparent, somewhat less potent, one could argue) communal games. So did the Goa Congresses, the UGDPs, and others in their own ways. The GLPs were more regionalistic, but unsucessful to build a coalition across religion and caste though they might have not shown bias on this front (other than anti-migrant bias). What it would take is some section of the media drumming up public opinion (they have already being doing so), and showing the aspiration for learning English out to be the ogre threating Goa. I think there should be scope for all points of view and aspirations in a non-majoritarian democracy. That would mean accepting English too, even if our friend Santosh dubs it a foreign language. (It incidentally is as foreign as the religion, clothes, food and furniture of a large section of Goa and its diaspora -- cutting across many more obvious divides.) Anyway, even if we accept this questionable logic, what is a good definition of judging what is democratic? That 99% of students choose to study through the English-medium from Standard V (middle school, secondary school, higher secondary, college, university) in all and every part of Goa today? I don't agree with your logic. FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
On 1 December 2011 00:00, Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear Frederick, You are being a contrarian for the sake of it. This brings to mind a Konkani saying loosely translated to mean, you can't change the tail of a dog not even if you shoot it through a cannon. I have run out of steam to debate any further. The attitude of Goans in any case can best be described by another famous Konkani saying, loosely translated as whose father, what goes. So I end with bon noite from W. Drayton. Selma, hang on! Don't quit so fast... It's not even night here (okay, these are relative terms)... leave aside Drayton. Anyway I need to bug you some more, as I've been very successfully doing these days: the shot it through a cannon bit is totally fictional or a figment of someone's imagination. As Jerry Pinto would say, you cannot translate anyhow and call it a loose translation... a crime I am myself often guilty of. Contrarian-ly yours, FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto?
To the best of my evanescing memory it goes like: Sunneachi/kutrachi xempdy kon'nea-nollint bandlear keddinch ubbi zauchinam... Dog's tail bound in a bamboo tube will never straighten out... There is an analogous saying vide a woman's tongue but woe be me to evagate to yet another verbal outpouring Chacha...in a nattering nabob vein From: fredericknoro...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 01:24:32 +0530 To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Subject: Re: [Goanet] MOI - will Kangress dare put their preference for English in the election manifesto? On 30 November 2011 22:47, anil desai anild...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest to you that one way of making that decision democratic would be to put it in the party manifesto for the next elections in Goa. We would all then know if a majority of Goans support this idea. Doctor, Are you suggesting that such issues are best sorted out by the tyranny of the majority? Ideally, elections could be taken as a reflection of public opinion. (By that yardstick, Congress is today still more acceptable than BJP, god forbid!) But you know the reality in Goa. Way back since the first elections in 1963, politics has been fought largely on communally-tinged lines. The MGP did it, the UGP did it (less successfully). I won't blame the BJP alone, even the Congress plays its (less-apparent, somewhat less potent, one could argue) communal games. So did the Goa Congresses, the UGDPs, and others in their own ways. The GLPs were more regionalistic, but unsucessful to build a coalition across religion and caste though they might have not shown bias on this front (other than anti-migrant bias). What it would take is some section of the media drumming up public opinion (they have already being doing so), and showing the aspiration for learning English out to be the ogre threating Goa. I think there should be scope for all points of view and aspirations in a non-majoritarian democracy. That would mean accepting English too, even if our friend Santosh dubs it a foreign language. (It incidentally is as foreign as the religion, clothes, food and furniture of a large section of Goa and its diaspora -- cutting across many more obvious divides.) Anyway, even if we accept this questionable logic, what is a good definition of judging what is democratic? That 99% of students choose to study through the English-medium from Standard V (middle school, secondary school, higher secondary, college, university) in all and every part of Goa today? I don't agree with your logic. FN --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php --- --- Protect Goa's natural beauty Support Goa's first Tiger Reserve Sign the petition at: http://www.goanet.org/petition/petition.php ---
