Re: [Goanet] caste and class

2008-04-26 Thread CORNEL DACOSTA
Hi Gabe
 I am unable to enter the big debate on the points
raised about caste and affirmative action, by Jane
Rodrigues for lack of time now. However, regarding
your point below about renowned universities being
ordered to take more students from poor backgrounds,
I believe that this is a questionable interpretation
of the move by the Labour Government to diversify the
university intake in the UK.

In brief--and I have to rush this a bit, higher
education in the UK has always been for the better off
by the better off and the characteristics of the 'A'
level entry mode represent the perfect manifestation
of this fact.  The Government's position (and with
which I agree) is that this particular exam mode that
is used for university entry, excludes much natural
talent that never makes it to university, let alone to
the high status ones. In this scenario, the UK as a
whole loses out in an increasingly globalised world
where human talent and its use is the key to national
prosperity.

In America, to some extent they have cracked this kind
of problem by having internationally available
selection schemes (eg SATS) to identify bright
students from anywhere and on the basis of high
scores, Harvard and Yale, among others, will
physically locate the potential talent and provide
educational opportunites at their institutions and
include programmes to compensate for where there are
initial academic shortfalls among such students. Not
withstanding the existence of the old boy/girl
network, this is a much fairer system than 'A' level
selection in the UK that, is excellent for some but
not the many, and is heavily biased towards the middle
classes who privately invest heavily in 'A' level exam
preparation without regard for the true intellectual
potential of candidates for university places. An
American scholar, Ralph Turner, a long time ago, had
written a brilliant short essay on the significant
difference between the American and UK university
systems, titled Sponsored and Contest Mobility
...which I am sure can be googled by anyone who may be
interested.

The UK government wants UK universities to do
something similar to what America does but this is not
that easy in a system steeped in privilege and
tradition. The traditional universites are inclined to
do what they have always done--work with the more
priviledged in society. Therefore, they are being
given more money if they seek the talent out there,
(the potential Shakespeares, Einsteins etc) who could
but don't make it because they are in the lower strata
of society and what they get in less good schools
cannot provide them the passage to university. The
Government has introduced a carrot and stick approach
so that those universites that do not diversify are
penalised through reduced grants. For those unfamiliar
with the UK system, there are no private universites
here and all courses/programs are paid for, validated
and monitored by Government agencies.  Of course, time
and resources would raise the standard of the lower
class people at school level, but until then, more
innovative measures are needed to identify, and draw
into university level work, so much intellectual
talent around that is currently being simply wasted.  
Cornel

Gabe Menezes wrote: 
 Incidentally, it happens on similar basis here in
 the U.K. as well when renowned Universities were
ordered to take more students from poor back grounds.
The problem is, you can take the horse to the trough
but you can't make it drink.




Re: [Goanet] caste and class

2008-04-26 Thread Mario Goveia
Mario Goveia wrote:
  
 It is even more true to say about upper caste 
 Indians, When it suits them they cry foul. Taking 
 advantage of their high caste has been going on for 
 centuries.

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 21:09:56 +0100
From: Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED]

So why can't the US of A do the same for the African
Americans and the originators of the land the Red
Indians?

As usual you choose and cherry pick; physician heal
thy self.

Mario observes:

Gabe,

You don't know much about the US of A, do you?

We have had affirmative action laws on the books for
decades in order to help minorities and prevent
discrimination against them in jobs and housing.

Today, an African-American woman holds the top foreign
policy position in the US administration, and another
is a leading candidate for President of the US of A. 
Several major American corporations have CEOs who are
African-American.  Mayors of several of our largest
cities are African-American.

There are no red Indians in the US of A, only brown
Indians like me.

Our native Americans have the same protections as
other minorities and have special privileges in the
reservations set aside for them, including
administrative autonomy.

I would say we have gone a long way in healing
ourselves.





Re: [Goanet] caste and class

2008-04-25 Thread Gabe Menezes
On 25 Apr 2008 08:25:50 -, jane gillian rodrigues
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  As per e-mails below, today, many Indians try their best to take full 
 advantage of  the fact that they belong to SC/ST and OBC, because 
 reservations for SC/ST and OBC in govtmt jobs and govtmt educational 
 instritutions are increasing, thanks to Mr. Arjun Singh of Congress.

  Check out all Indian candidates who have got admission through reserved 
 seats (SC/ST and OBC)in govtmt medical, engineering etc. educational 
 institutions and govtmt jobs and ask them, why they have done so,  and, why, 
 they have  not taken admission  in to general/unreserved admission category?

  Regards

RESPONSE: Now I really like this query! When it suits they cry foul
and if not they take advantage of their low Caste. Surely if Caste is
to be abolished altogether and we all agree it must, then it must
imply a level playing field for all. Many Indians who are smart,
complain that they are not admitted because someone who has lower
grades belonged to a S/T. S/C or OBC, got in, because the system was
discriminatory.

Incidentally, it happens on similar basis here in the U.K. as well
when renowned Universities were ordered to take more students from
poor back grounds. The problem is, you can take the horse to the
trough but you can't make it drink.
-- 
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England


Re: [Goanet] caste and class

2008-04-25 Thread Gabe Menezes
On 25/04/2008, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  Mario responds:
  
  It is even more true to say about upper caste Indians,
  When it suits them they cry foul. Taking advantage
  of their high caste has been going on for centuries.

RESPONSE: So why can't the US of A do the same for the African
Americans and the originators of the land the Red Indians?

As usual you choose and cherry pick; physician heal thy self.
-- 
DEV BOREM KORUM.

Gabe Menezes.
London, England