Re: [h-cost] (no subject)
At 01:03 PM 3/23/2012, you wrote: I have never, ever heard that! I think it is completely apocryphal. Pierre Greetings all, I've been mulling this bit of trivia around in my head for the longest time. I think I need to share it and see if any of you know of any support or documentation for this information. Most Unusual Concession to Modesty: The earliest Christians believed that the Virgin Mary was impregnated through her ear and that other women as well had used their ears as reproductive organs. For that reason, an exposed female ear was considered no less an outrage than an exposed thigh, and a woman would not appear in public unless clad in a tight-fitting wimple. Felton, Bruce, and Mark Fowler. Part II, Behavior. The Best, Worst, and Most Unusual: Noteworthy Achievements, Events, Feats and Blunders of Every Conceivable Kind. New York: Galahad, 1994. 428. Print. So, the wimple had to develop for some reason. Is this reason believable? Documentable? Are there any other reasons that would be more legitimate based on available documentation? Laurie Taylor Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume International Costumers' Guild Archivist http://www.costume.org/gallery2/main.php Those Who Fail to Learn History Are Doomed to Repeat It; Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly - Why They Are Simply Doomed. Achemdro'hm The Illusion of Historical Fact -- C. Y. 4971 Andromeda ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Ear-coverings and wimples
On 3/23/2012 1:03 PM, Laurie Taylor wrote: Most Unusual Concession to Modesty: The earliest Christians believed that the Virgin Mary was impregnated through her ear and that other women as well had used their ears as reproductive organs. For that reason, an exposed female ear was considered no less an outrage than an exposed thigh, and a woman would not appear in public unless clad in a tight-fitting wimple. Felton, Bruce, and Mark Fowler. Part II, Behavior. The Best, Worst, and Most Unusual: Noteworthy Achievements, Events, Feats and Blunders of Every Conceivable Kind. New York: Galahad, 1994. 428. Print. There are some bits and pieces here that ring true, but the entirety doesn't. First: There's a tale that appears in some medieval bestiaries that the weasel (or marten or ferret or any similar animal) conceives through the ear and gives birth through the mouth. (T.H. White, in his study on bestiaries, claims also that some sources have it the other way around.) In any case, those animals were frequently associated symbolically with childbirth. I'm pretty sure there are some writings, somewhere, that draw the parallel between this tale and the fact that the Virgin Mary conceived through God's word, which entered through her ear. This symbolic connection with weasels may appear in some paintings of the annunciation, though none come to my mind at the moment. However, that's as far as I've ever heard it go -- I've never heard this used as a justification for women being required to cover their ears, and I suspect that idea was probably a fanciful invention of some 19th-century scholar that got passed off as fact showing how quaint and stupid our forebears were. (I'm also remembering a passage from one of Laura Ingalls Wilder's books in which Laura's mother says that in her youth, it was considered inappropriate for a girl or woman to show her ears. That would have been mid-19th century as well, so the modesty connection might have rung true to the costume historians, and their audience, at that time.) As to the particular headcovering method: I should note also that wimple refers to more than one construction depending on era. Anglo-Saxon scholars understand the wimple as a one-piece headwrap that covers both head and neck. As someone else noted, the later wimple of the 14th century is a separate neck covering typically worn in conjunction with a veil. The effect of covering both head and neck is the same, and the same term was used in both periods, but the structure of the covering changed over time. The wimple, by that name, was not a garment of the earliest Christians. Of course, there can be other headgear that covers the ears, and other names for such headgear. So ear-covering and wimple are overlapping but not identical sets. Still, it's likely that a later writer who isn't a costume specialist would use the word wimple to refer to any ear-covering headdress without regard to whether the wearers used that word in a particular place or time. (For those who are interested in the use of the term wimple, Lucia Sinisi had an article in Medieval Clothing Textiles, volume 4, called The Wandering Wimple, which traces the linguistic use of that term.) So, the wimple had to develop for some reason. Is this reason believable? Documentable? Are there any other reasons that would be more legitimate based on available documentation? Cloth headcoverings, some of which cover the ears or neck or both, have been worn in many cultures and for many reasons, including practical ones (cleanliness, weather protection) as well as modesty or fashion. It seems pretty far-fetched to claim the wimple was a result of some obscure commandment to cover the ear because it was the Virgin Mary's sex organ. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Image search - help?
Greetings, A while back, before Xmas, I was researching sideless surcote pictures online. Had a few images open in tabs, and had a crash before I got them all saved. One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. I've been hunting for this image ever since, and absolutely cannot find it. I'm starting to wonder if I imagined it. I've gone through every Google result that seemed even remotely likely. I'm quite sure that it was not a painting from any sort of Codex. It seems like it was a fairly light, bright painting. I think that it was from the right time for sideless gowns, so not anything like a Victorian fantasy, not a pre-Raphaelite for sure. This image could have been in someone's PDF file, or it could have been right on a web page. I do remember thinking that I'd love to have done a reproduction of whatever her whole outfit was, though the surcote was the most noticeable thing about it, at least at the moment that I was seeing it. I've seen many images of sideless surcotes in what could be called pink, and many of women seated and wearing sideless surcotes, yet this one image eludes me. I know that this is asking a lot, but if this minimal bit of description jogs anything for any of you, I'd sure appreciate any nudges in the direction of images that might be this one. Appreciative of your patience and your help! Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
You've probably already covered this but I'm not sure how much data you have lost. Do you have access to your browser history around that time? To me that would be the best option available. If not I'm afraid it's not my period so I can't help out. On 3/26/12, Laurie Taylor mazarineblu...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings, A while back, before Xmas, I was researching sideless surcote pictures online. Had a few images open in tabs, and had a crash before I got them all saved. One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. I've been hunting for this image ever since, and absolutely cannot find it. I'm starting to wonder if I imagined it. I've gone through every Google result that seemed even remotely likely. I'm quite sure that it was not a painting from any sort of Codex. It seems like it was a fairly light, bright painting. I think that it was from the right time for sideless gowns, so not anything like a Victorian fantasy, not a pre-Raphaelite for sure. This image could have been in someone's PDF file, or it could have been right on a web page. I do remember thinking that I'd love to have done a reproduction of whatever her whole outfit was, though the surcote was the most noticeable thing about it, at least at the moment that I was seeing it. I've seen many images of sideless surcotes in what could be called pink, and many of women seated and wearing sideless surcotes, yet this one image eludes me. I know that this is asking a lot, but if this minimal bit of description jogs anything for any of you, I'd sure appreciate any nudges in the direction of images that might be this one. Appreciative of your patience and your help! Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- -- Elizabeth Walpole http://magpiecostumer.wordpress.com/ http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
Thanks, but no, this was before Christmas, and I don't keep my browser history for more than a day. Something about security as I recall, though this image is making me doubt my recall entirely! It's out there. Someday I'll find it. Tonight it's bugging me. Tomorrow, I'll be too busy with Estrella War packing to bother worrying about it. After War, I'll look some more. Laurie T. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth W Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 9:00 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Image search - help? You've probably already covered this but I'm not sure how much data you have lost. Do you have access to your browser history around that time? To me that would be the best option available. If not I'm afraid it's not my period so I can't help out. On 3/26/12, Laurie Taylor mazarineblu...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings, A while back, before Xmas, I was researching sideless surcote pictures online. Had a few images open in tabs, and had a crash before I got them all saved. One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. I've been hunting for this image ever since, and absolutely cannot find it. I'm starting to wonder if I imagined it. I've gone through every Google result that seemed even remotely likely. I'm quite sure that it was not a painting from any sort of Codex. It seems like it was a fairly light, bright painting. I think that it was from the right time for sideless gowns, so not anything like a Victorian fantasy, not a pre-Raphaelite for sure. This image could have been in someone's PDF file, or it could have been right on a web page. I do remember thinking that I'd love to have done a reproduction of whatever her whole outfit was, though the surcote was the most noticeable thing about it, at least at the moment that I was seeing it. I've seen many images of sideless surcotes in what could be called pink, and many of women seated and wearing sideless surcotes, yet this one image eludes me. I know that this is asking a lot, but if this minimal bit of description jogs anything for any of you, I'd sure appreciate any nudges in the direction of images that might be this one. Appreciative of your patience and your help! Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- -- Elizabeth Walpole http://magpiecostumer.wordpress.com/ http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
Hi Laurie, Try these links. http://vieuxchamps.com/persona/enlarged/wg/wpic11.php http://vieuxchamps.com/persona/wgarb2.php Best Regards, Monica Spence -- On 3/26/12, Laurie Taylor mazarineblu...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings, A while back, before Xmas, I was researching sideless surcote pictures online. Had a few images open in tabs, and had a crash before I got them all saved. One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. I've been hunting for this image ever since, and absolutely cannot find it. I'm starting to wonder if I imagined it. I've gone through every Google result that seemed even remotely likely. I'm quite sure that it was not a painting from any sort of Codex. It seems like it was a fairly light, bright painting. I think that it was from the right time for sideless gowns, so not anything like a Victorian fantasy, not a pre-Raphaelite for sure. This image could have been in someone's PDF file, or it could have been right on a web page. I do remember thinking that I'd love to have done a reproduction of whatever her whole outfit was, though the surcote was the most noticeable thing about it, at least at the moment that I was seeing it. I've seen many images of sideless surcotes in what could be called pink, and many of women seated and wearing sideless surcotes, yet this one image eludes me. I know that this is asking a lot, but if this minimal bit of description jogs anything for any of you, I'd sure appreciate any nudges in the direction of images that might be this one. Appreciative of your patience and your help! Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- -- Elizabeth Walpole http://magpiecostumer.wordpress.com/ http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
You might have seen someone's interpretation of f 249v from the Manesse Codex. The page has two people on a light background, the woman is seated to the left looking over her right shoulder and she's wearing a light red sideless surcoat puddled around her feet. In the interpretation, the surcoat is definitely pink, not red. You can see a copy of f 249v here: http://lumillule.wordpress.com/ And the interpretation here: http://turquoise26-terreetciel.blogspot.com/2011/07/le-codex-manesse.html Hope this helps, -Helen/Aidan - Original Message - From: Laurie Taylor mazarineblu...@gmail.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 11:30:12 PM Subject: [h-cost] Image search - help? Greetings, A while back, before Xmas, I was researching sideless surcote pictures online. Had a few images open in tabs, and had a crash before I got them all saved. One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. I've been hunting for this image ever since, and absolutely cannot find it. I'm starting to wonder if I imagined it. I've gone through every Google result that seemed even remotely likely. I'm quite sure that it was not a painting from any sort of Codex. It seems like it was a fairly light, bright painting. I think that it was from the right time for sideless gowns, so not anything like a Victorian fantasy, not a pre-Raphaelite for sure. This image could have been in someone's PDF file, or it could have been right on a web page. I do remember thinking that I'd love to have done a reproduction of whatever her whole outfit was, though the surcote was the most noticeable thing about it, at least at the moment that I was seeing it. I've seen many images of sideless surcotes in what could be called pink, and many of women seated and wearing sideless surcotes, yet this one image eludes me. I know that this is asking a lot, but if this minimal bit of description jogs anything for any of you, I'd sure appreciate any nudges in the direction of images that might be this one. Appreciative of your patience and your help! Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
Hi, And thank you, but I've found that page several time myself. The pink sideless does seem as though it matches what I've described remembering, but it's not it. I've even gone ahead and reviewed as much of the Pre-Raphaelite work as I can, since there is some medieval-inspired content mixed in with all of the Greco-Roman, but no, I'm not mis-remembering something from that movement. I know that when I saw this image it surprised me, as it was the first time I'd seen it ever, in spite of having done many hours of image research on sideless surcotes, on many previous occasions. No idea why this image is so obscure or elusive. I may be in for some sort of shock, if ever I do see it again. Laurie -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Monica Spence Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 9:09 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] Image search - help? Hi Laurie, Try these links. http://vieuxchamps.com/persona/enlarged/wg/wpic11.php http://vieuxchamps.com/persona/wgarb2.php Best Regards, Monica Spence -- On 3/26/12, Laurie Taylor mazarineblu...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings, A while back, before Xmas, I was researching sideless surcote pictures online. Had a few images open in tabs, and had a crash before I got them all saved. One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. I've been hunting for this image ever since, and absolutely cannot find it. I'm starting to wonder if I imagined it. I've gone through every Google result that seemed even remotely likely. I'm quite sure that it was not a painting from any sort of Codex. It seems like it was a fairly light, bright painting. I think that it was from the right time for sideless gowns, so not anything like a Victorian fantasy, not a pre-Raphaelite for sure. This image could have been in someone's PDF file, or it could have been right on a web page. I do remember thinking that I'd love to have done a reproduction of whatever her whole outfit was, though the surcote was the most noticeable thing about it, at least at the moment that I was seeing it. I've seen many images of sideless surcotes in what could be called pink, and many of women seated and wearing sideless surcotes, yet this one image eludes me. I know that this is asking a lot, but if this minimal bit of description jogs anything for any of you, I'd sure appreciate any nudges in the direction of images that might be this one. Appreciative of your patience and your help! Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- -- Elizabeth Walpole http://magpiecostumer.wordpress.com/ http://magpiecostumer.110mb.com/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
Wonderful that you could find that from my vague description, and I do adore the images of the Codex Manesse, but still that's not it. I don't think that the image I'm remembering was quite as early as the Codex Manesse, and the sideless in my missing image is probably a later style sideless, with the larger side openings. Beyond that...maybe I'm just crazy? Thanks! Laurie -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Helen Pinto Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 9:25 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Image search - help? You might have seen someone's interpretation of f 249v from the Manesse Codex. The page has two people on a light background, the woman is seated to the left looking over her right shoulder and she's wearing a light red sideless surcoat puddled around her feet. In the interpretation, the surcoat is definitely pink, not red. You can see a copy of f 249v here: http://lumillule.wordpress.com/ And the interpretation here: http://turquoise26-terreetciel.blogspot.com/2011/07/le-codex-manesse.html Hope this helps, -Helen/Aidan - Original Message - From: Laurie Taylor mazarineblu...@gmail.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 11:30:12 PM Subject: [h-cost] Image search - help? Greetings, A while back, before Xmas, I was researching sideless surcote pictures online. Had a few images open in tabs, and had a crash before I got them all saved. One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. I've been hunting for this image ever since, and absolutely cannot find it. I'm starting to wonder if I imagined it. I've gone through every Google result that seemed even remotely likely. I'm quite sure that it was not a painting from any sort of Codex. It seems like it was a fairly light, bright painting. I think that it was from the right time for sideless gowns, so not anything like a Victorian fantasy, not a pre-Raphaelite for sure. This image could have been in someone's PDF file, or it could have been right on a web page. I do remember thinking that I'd love to have done a reproduction of whatever her whole outfit was, though the surcote was the most noticeable thing about it, at least at the moment that I was seeing it. I've seen many images of sideless surcotes in what could be called pink, and many of women seated and wearing sideless surcotes, yet this one image eludes me. I know that this is asking a lot, but if this minimal bit of description jogs anything for any of you, I'd sure appreciate any nudges in the direction of images that might be this one. Appreciative of your patience and your help! Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
On 3/25/2012 11:30 PM, Laurie Taylor wrote: I know that when I saw this image it surprised me, as it was the first time I'd seen it ever, in spite of having done many hours of image research on sideless surcotes, on many previous occasions. No idea why this image is so obscure or elusive. I may be in for some sort of shock, if ever I do see it again. I've read your description (quoted below), but I'm not quite catching why this image is special. As you said, there's plenty of images of surcotes, and plenty of those images were painted with pink pigments. Was there something about this one that made it unusual? I should note that I have a collection of several hundred surcote images, including quite a few I've photographed off the original artworks, but the description you gave is way too generic for me to even begin to look. --Robin One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Image search - help?
Oh Robin, I know, and I sure wish that I could come up with something more specific. Yes, there was something about the image that made me keep it open in a tab, when I was busily viewing others and closing them, and made me feel a little sick when the browser crashed. It had turned up for the first and only time, in spite of so many previous sideless surcote expeditions. If ever I can recall anything else about it, I will be sure to drop you a query. Best I can say is that she was seated, her left 3/4 profile towards the artist, wearing a later sideless, not the high armholes of the Manesse Codex era. I think that there were other women in the painting, but not 100% certain about that. No, don't try to look based on the little that I can recall, but perhaps someday you'll be looking for some other purpose, and one will jump out at you and demand that you bring it to my attention - if I am really, really lucky. And by the way, a very belated thank you for your educational efforts at Costume College last year. While I'm not likely to tackle a GFD any time soon, I so very much enjoyed your explanations of your process for fitting and making the supportive gown. Laurie -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:01 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Image search - help? On 3/25/2012 11:30 PM, Laurie Taylor wrote: I know that when I saw this image it surprised me, as it was the first time I'd seen it ever, in spite of having done many hours of image research on sideless surcotes, on many previous occasions. No idea why this image is so obscure or elusive. I may be in for some sort of shock, if ever I do see it again. I've read your description (quoted below), but I'm not quite catching why this image is special. As you said, there's plenty of images of surcotes, and plenty of those images were painted with pink pigments. Was there something about this one that made it unusual? I should note that I have a collection of several hundred surcote images, including quite a few I've photographed off the original artworks, but the description you gave is way too generic for me to even begin to look. --Robin One in particular is still haunting me. Period painting, a group of people with some emphasis towards the left side of the painting (viewer's perspective) - One woman was seated, turned slightly to her right, the viewer's left. She was wearing a sideless surcote in what would be called pink ...in modern terms, but a deep, rich pink if I recall correctly, and it was draped on the floor around her feet. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
