Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
In a message dated 10/17/2007 8:42:17 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ann's right; tuxedos were originally a kind of informal wear; they did not become formal wear until the 1920s.Unfortunately, I don't remember enough to be more detailed than that. Actually, tuxedos started as a form of infomal formal wear, worn at gentlemen's clubs before 1900. At least that is my understanding. Cheryl Odom, poster of the original question ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
AlbertCat, I lost track of this thread. Are you quoting _Cutting for All: The Sartorial Arts_, Wikipedia or something else? It's an interesting story one I hadnt heard in any kind of depth before, tho I find myself in doubt give the anecdotal tales particularly those that dont agree. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests ** This is what I remember too. And in the teens you might see a real mix, the older men in older styles, the young men in tuxes. Here is what it says on Definitions of the clothing Textile industry: The American name tuxedo is taken from Tuxedo Park, New York, a private club of country houses founded by Pierre Lorillard, the tobacco heir. (The town of Tuxedo and Tuxedo Park themselves were named by the Lenni-Lenape Indians, who called the largest lake in the area tucseto, meaning either place of the bear or clear flowing water.)... snip ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
In a message dated 10/18/2007 2:28:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I lost track of this thread. Are you quoting _Cutting for All: The Sartorial Arts_, * No. I just did a google of Tuxedo... or was it Cummerbund, history? anyway, it took me here: _http://www.apparelsearch.com/Definitions/Clothing/Tuxedo_black_tie_definition .htm_ (http://www.apparelsearch.com/Definitions/Clothing/Tuxedo_black_tie_definition.htm) ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
I think Miss Manners has covered the evolution of tails and the tuxedo--try one of her earlier etiquette books.? Tuxedos were definitely informal when first developed, so your characters should probably be wearing tails.? I think the white tie and tails had been codified by then, to include the starched front shirt and white pique waistcoat, but I could be wrong. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:32 am Subject: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests My students are designing a production of Dracula (1897) and are required to do research and designs for the costumes. There has been a lot of discussion of vest colors and appropriate coats for various occasions. I learned (Esquire Book of Men's Clothing, mostly) that the rule of thumb is white tie and vest with tails, black tie and vest with tux. A man in black tie and tails would be a servant ie butler or waiter. So my students have found a lot of research contrary to what my assumption was. I have seen pictures of white vest and black tie with tails, white vest and white tie with tuxedos, black vest and tie with tails on gentlemen who would never be mistaken for servants and all other permutations. The research they have found is secondary, meaning drawings from the period rather than actual photographs. Have I been wrong all these years? Also, it was my understanding that tuxedos were not considered proper in the presence of ladies. Tails were required for those occasions, although I do understand that this convention gradually faded away. Can someone elucidate me? Cheryl Odom College of Santa Fe ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
My students are designing a production of Dracula (1897) and are required to do research and designs for the costumes. There has been a lot of discussion of vest colors and appropriate coats for various occasions. I learned (Esquire Book of Men's Clothing, mostly) that the rule of thumb is white tie and vest with tails, black tie and vest with tux. A man in black tie and tails would be a servant ie butler or waiter. So my students have found a lot of research contrary to what my assumption was. I have seen pictures of white vest and black tie with tails, white vest and white tie with tuxedos, black vest and tie with tails on gentlemen who would never be mistaken for servants and all other permutations. The research they have found is secondary, meaning drawings from the period rather than actual photographs. Have I been wrong all these years? Also, it was my understanding that tuxedos were not considered proper in the presence of ladies. Tails were required for those occasions, although I do understand that this convention gradually faded away. Can someone elucidate me? Cheryl Odom College of Santa Fe ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
I have a page of information on 1890s men's evening attire that may be helpful, it has no photographs (yet) but it has original period illustrations: http://www.vintagevictorian.com/costume_1890_men.html Also our dance group's 1890s costume page has a description of men's evening attire at the bottom of this page: http://www.vintagedancers.org/costume_1890.html Some general guidelines: In the 1890s the tuxedo was very new, and considered as more informal evening wear. With tails, white ties seem to be pretty much universal, but both white and black vests are seen, and they are usually cut fairly low. Cummerbunds were not yet in fashion. Collars are generally stand-up collars though occasionally a fold-over (or very early wing tip) collars are seen, though they are pretty rare. Vest waistlines were not yet pointed, and ideally should not protrude below the bottom of the tailcoat front. This requires higher waistlines on the trousers, closer to the natural waist than modern fashions, for proper coverage (one of the hardest details to reproduce using modern trousers, and modern men's ideas of where their waists actually are:~). Katy On 10/17/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My students are designing a production of Dracula (1897) and are required to do research and designs for the costumes. There has been a lot of discussion of vest colors and appropriate coats for various occasions. I learned (Esquire Book of Men's Clothing, mostly) that the rule of thumb is white tie and vest with tails, black tie and vest with tux. A man in black tie and tails would be a servant ie butler or waiter. So my students have found a lot of research contrary to what my assumption was. I have seen pictures of white vest and black tie with tails, white vest and white tie with tuxedos, black vest and tie with tails on gentlemen who would never be mistaken for servants and all other permutations. The research they have found is secondary, meaning drawings from the period rather than actual photographs. Have I been wrong all these years? Also, it was my understanding that tuxedos were not considered proper in the presence of ladies. Tails were required for those occasions, although I do understand that this convention gradually faded away. Can someone elucidate me? Cheryl Odom College of Santa Fe ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Katy Bishop, Vintage Victorian [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.VintageVictorian.com Custom reproduction gowns of the Victorian Era. Publisher of the Vintage Dress Series books. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
My students are designing a production of Dracula (1897) and are required to do research and designs for the costumes. There has been a lot of discussion of vest colors and appropriate coats for various occasions. I learned (Esquire Book of Men's Clothing, mostly) that the rule of thumb is white tie and vest with tails, black tie and vest with tux. A man in black tie and tails would be a servant ie butler or waiter. So my students have found a lot of research contrary to what my assumption was. I have seen pictures of white vest and black tie with tails, white vest and white tie with tuxedos, black vest and tie with tails on gentlemen who would never be mistaken for servants and all other permutations. The research they have found is secondary, meaning drawings from the period rather than actual photographs. Have I been wrong all these years? Also, it was my understanding that tuxedos were not considered proper in the presence of ladies. Tails were required for those occasions, although I do understand that this convention gradually faded away. Can someone elucidate me? Check out Farid Chenoune's A History of Men's Fashion. I believe (but it's been many years since I looked at this reasarch) that it's just around the turn of the century (so 1897 counts :-) ) that the tux moved from informal wear to being accecptable evening wear (although still not de rigeur for extreamly formal occasions). I'd recomenend Sarah Levitt's Fashion in Photographs 1880-1900 for photos of all different levels of formality for both upper-class English men and women. Sorry, I'm not at home, so I can't access my library for the answers m'self :-S Hope this helps! -sunny ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
I didn't thing tuxedos came in for evening wear until about the 1920s. They look wrong to me for 1890s. Sylrog On Oct 17, 2007, at 8:44 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Miss Manners has covered the evolution of tails and the tuxedo--try one of her earlier etiquette books.? Tuxedos were definitely informal when first developed, so your characters should probably be wearing tails.? I think the white tie and tails had been codified by then, to include the starched front shirt and white pique waistcoat, but I could be wrong. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 10:32 am Subject: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests My students are designing a production of Dracula (1897) and are required to do research and designs for the costumes. There has been a lot of discussion of vest colors and appropriate coats for various occasions. I learned (Esquire Book of Men's Clothing, mostly) that the rule of thumb is white tie and vest with tails, black tie and vest with tux. A man in black tie and tails would be a servant ie butler or waiter. So my students have found a lot of research contrary to what my assumption was. I have seen pictures of white vest and black tie with tails, white vest and white tie with tuxedos, black vest and tie with tails on gentlemen who would never be mistaken for servants and all other permutations. The research they have found is secondary, meaning drawings from the period rather than actual photographs. Have I been wrong all these years? Also, it was my understanding that tuxedos were not considered proper in the presence of ladies. Tails were required for those occasions, although I do understand that this convention gradually faded away. Can someone elucidate me? Cheryl Odom College of Santa Fe ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ _ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
On Wednesday 17 October 2007, Sylvia Rognstad wrote: I didn't thing tuxedos came in for evening wear until about the 1920s. They look wrong to me for 1890s. Ann's right; tuxedos were originally a kind of informal wear; they did not become formal wear until the 1920s. Unfortunately, I don't remember enough to be more detailed than that. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available.-- Gregory Benford ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Tux, tails and vests
In a message dated 10/17/2007 8:34:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ann's right; tuxedos were originally a kind of informal wear; they did not become formal wear until the 1920s. Unfortunately, I don't remember enough to be more detailed than that. ** This is what I remember too. And in the teens you might see a real mix, the older men in older styles, the young men in tuxes. Here is what it says on Definitions of the clothing Textile industry: The American name tuxedo is taken from Tuxedo Park, New York, a private club of country houses founded by Pierre Lorillard, the tobacco heir. (The town of Tuxedo and Tuxedo Park themselves were named by the Lenni-Lenape Indians, who called the largest lake in the area tucseto, meaning either place of the bear or clear flowing water.) Traditionally, the first Autumn Ball, held at the Tuxedo Club in October 1886, marked the official first American appearance of the English dinner jacket, which was favored by the fast sporting crowd round the Prince of Wales, who liked to wear a Cowes jacket, somewhat like a formal mess jacket, first at dinner aboard his yacht during the regattas held at _Cowes_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowes) , and then later at other evening entertainments, though never in London. The original single- breasted model was simply a tailcoat without a tail, worn with a white piqué vest as would be worn with a tailcoat, then later with a black vest ensuite with the jacket and trousers. At the 1886 Tuxedo Park Autumn Ball, Pierre Lorillard's young son Griswold Lorillard and his friends startled guests, all in white tie and tailcoats, by wearing the new English dinner jackets, with scarlet evening vests. The tailless coats were similar in cut to hunting pinks worn in daytime at foxhunting meets. When after 1889, gentlemen in tuxedos were even admitted to the Dress Circle at the new Metropolitan Opera, the success of the new fashion was made. A Tuxedo Park insider recalls a different story of the Tuxedo Park introduction of black tie, told him in the 1920s by Grenville Kane, the last founding member of the Tuxedo Club. Kane remembered that it had been James Brown Potter who, after staying with the Prince of Wales at Sandringham in the summer of 1886, brought back the new fashion to Tuxedo and introduced it to the members of the club The American upper classes now generally prefer the terms black tie or dinner jacket to tuxedo, which is considered slightly vulgar. Early evening clothes were uniformly black. The Duke of Windsor, when Prince of Wales, introduced midnight blue as an appropriate color, and even made the double-breasted dinner jacket acceptable. The waist sash called cummerbund (or cumberbund) was borrowed after World War I, from military dress in British _India_ (http://www.apparelsearch.com/World_Clothing_Industry/India/india.htm) . ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
