Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Oh, I see your point--I'm only interested in late 18th-early 19th century, > > and the patterns seem to be taken from the real garments pictured. A good use for bad costume books? I like to use a pile of them as a monitor stand. Kohler's just too small. Into the bin! --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, I see your point--I'm only interested in late 18th-early 19th century, and the patterns seem to be taken from the real garments pictured. And I think that's one of the dangers for Kohler, particularly for beginners. If they see the extant garments with patterns in the latter part of the book, and the smattering of extant garments with layouts for earlier periods, they could very well conclude that all the layouts are based on extant garments--including that bliaut with the "breast bags" that Robin mentioned earlier. "Bad" books are fascinating in their own right as attempts to understand historic costume, often by comparing it to whatever was contemporary to the writer, but only for more advanced researchers. Susan ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books (was: FindingInformation)
True! He's just another "don't take it as gospel" guy. And he DOES show'discuss something besides English clothing, which was about all we could lay hands on in The Bad Old 2-towels-plus-safety-pins=tabard days! Liadain Finding something good in almost EVERY book... THL Liadain ni Mhordha OFO wildernesse, the Outlands http://www.flickr.com/photos/liadains_fancies -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 2:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books (was: FindingInformation) Kohler Hey, Kohler has pictures of real garments (albeit displayed on live models), and also some decent drawings of patterns taken from them--I've used one of his early 19th century bodices as a guide. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Frank A Thallas Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'Historical Costume' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 2:52 pm Subject: RE: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books (was: Finding Information) I am the proud (?!?) owner of a copy of "Ancient Costumes Of Great Britain and Ireland", by Charles Hamilton Smith, originally published in 1814. Maybe this is the source of the "Druid sleeves" on half the costumes offered on eBay But it's a nice big book and does good duty as a lap desk. :-P I seem to be collecting Bad Books. I also have Peacock, and Kohler, and a couple of volumes of Norris Liadain THL Liadain ni Mhordha OFO wildernesse, the Outlands http://www.flickr.com/photos/liadains_fancies ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books
I find that the Kohler book is a good place to start when I want to get a vague idea before looking into a new period. I've come across a lot worse "beginners" books, some being x-mas presents from evil friends. My personal pet pieve is an early 15thC period book with fairly accurate drawings of weapons and a mixture of Disney medieval and better documented drawings of garments. I've threatend violence if anybody uses that book as a source again for garments, as the personal favorites always turns out to be the fantasy garments. I'd rather see Disney's Sleeping Beauty used as a source to be honest. :-) Gunvor ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books (was: Finding Information)
I have several books that I (and others) consider to be not good - some of them (eg Kohler) come in handy for the photos if nothing else... But I do tend to find that they come in handy as a design source for modern clothes :o) In a message dated 23/02/2008 00:44:02 GMT Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am the proud (?!?) owner of a copy of "Ancient Costumes Of Great Britain and Ireland", by Charles Hamilton Smith, originally published in 1814. Maybe this is the source of the "Druid sleeves" on half the costumes offered on eBay But it's a nice big book and does good duty as a lap desk. :-P I seem to be collecting Bad Books. I also have Peacock, and Kohler, and a couple of volumes of Norris Liadain ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books
In a message dated 2/22/2008 4:44:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The patterns are maybe better for the later periods; I don't know that material, so I can't judge. Oh, I see your point--I'm only interested in late 18th-early 19th century, and the patterns seem to be taken from the real garments pictured. Ann Wass **Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp0030002598) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, Kohler has pictures of real garments (albeit displayed on live models), and also some decent drawings of patterns taken from them--I've used one of his early 19th century bodices as a guide. The patterns are maybe better for the later periods; I don't know that material, so I can't judge. At least for later garments, there was better extant material to work with, which is still the case for people researching those periods today. However, some of the patterns for medieval garments in Kohler are pure fantasy (like the 12th-century dress with curved seams under the breasts). Others are early attempts that have since been revised by better research (like the Golden Gown pattern that inserts a waistline seam and misidentifies back and front). And many of the pattern drawings, IIRC, are presented as fact without making clear which are taken from real garments and which are simply someone's conjecture. Kohler also is guilty of making sweeping statements that sound more authoritative than there is evidence for. Much of what's in that book has been repeated as fact by later authors and become enshrined as such in the literature. For instance, there's that "14th century" sleeveless chemise for which the provenance was never accurately determined (and it is lost, probably destroyed, so we'll never know). Some of the material in the book, of course, was not Kohler's own, but must have been added by Emma Von Sichart, who revised the book substantially for the 1928 edition -- for instance, to include the just-published Greenland finds. Kohler himself died in 1876. So there's a mix of older and not-so-old scholarship in that book, and possibly some inconsistencies arising from that. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books (was: Finding Information)
Kohler Hey, Kohler has pictures of real garments (albeit displayed on live models), and also some decent drawings of patterns taken from them--I've used one of his early 19th century bodices as a guide. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Frank A Thallas Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: 'Historical Costume' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 2:52 pm Subject: RE: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books (was: Finding Information) I am the proud (?!?) owner of a copy of "Ancient Costumes Of Great Britain and Ireland", by Charles Hamilton Smith, originally published in 1814. Maybe this is the source of the "Druid sleeves" on half the costumes offered on eBay But it's a nice big book and does good duty as a lap desk. :-P I seem to be collecting Bad Books. I also have Peacock, and Kohler, and a couple of volumes of Norris Liadain THL Liadain ni Mhordha OFO wildernesse, the Outlands http://www.flickr.com/photos/liadains_fancies ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books (was: Finding Information)
I am the proud (?!?) owner of a copy of "Ancient Costumes Of Great Britain and Ireland", by Charles Hamilton Smith, originally published in 1814. Maybe this is the source of the "Druid sleeves" on half the costumes offered on eBay But it's a nice big book and does good duty as a lap desk. :-P I seem to be collecting Bad Books. I also have Peacock, and Kohler, and a couple of volumes of Norris Liadain THL Liadain ni Mhordha OFO wildernesse, the Outlands http://www.flickr.com/photos/liadains_fancies ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books
One thoing I do with my SCA apprentices is show the drawings/ engravings in the bad costume references next to the original artwork. It really opens their eyes. Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andrew Trembley Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:44 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books Robin Netherton wrote: > Schaeffer, Astrida wrote: >> And please, please, if you >> have Peacock's history of costume (that one's a modern abomination), >> take it out and burn it. It has nothing but impossible line drawings and >> no facts to back anything up. If only I could make all copies disappear >> from library shelves > > Even better than burning it, send it to the Robin Netherton Home for > Wayward Bad Costume Books. I have a shelf full of unreliable sources > that I consult frequently when I'm trying to track down the origins of > a misconception and to sort out the sequence of a chain of erroneous > interpretations. I love discredited sources. On numerous occasions I've threatened to do historical masquerade entries based on known discredited sources (including the idea of doing ancient Egyptian based on Rosicrucian Society dogma for CC23 in Ogden, Utah at the Peery Egyptian Theater). andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] A good use for bad costume books
Robin Netherton wrote: Schaeffer, Astrida wrote: And please, please, if you have Peacock's history of costume (that one's a modern abomination), take it out and burn it. It has nothing but impossible line drawings and no facts to back anything up. If only I could make all copies disappear from library shelves Even better than burning it, send it to the Robin Netherton Home for Wayward Bad Costume Books. I have a shelf full of unreliable sources that I consult frequently when I'm trying to track down the origins of a misconception and to sort out the sequence of a chain of erroneous interpretations. I love discredited sources. On numerous occasions I've threatened to do historical masquerade entries based on known discredited sources (including the idea of doing ancient Egyptian based on Rosicrucian Society dogma for CC23 in Ogden, Utah at the Peery Egyptian Theater). andy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
