Re: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular waist aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a similar way to provide ties. You need an extremely large square to be able to just tie the corners around your waist. But it does seem very wasteful if they are cut in one piece as they seem to be. Jean Lauren Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote It looks like waist-height aprons were often a square of linen with the top corners tied behind the back. In these Manesse Codex aprons, the smiths' aprons look as if they could be tied like napkins around the neck. The seed-sower here in October of The Tres Riches Heures du Duc de Barry http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/october.jpg is definitely wearing some kind of simple square or rectangle tied round the neck. But this seed-sower seems to have a more constructed version: http://classes.bnf.fr/idrisi/grand/1_04.htm (Peasants in the field in Le Régime des princes) A woman blacksmith and a man in The Holkham Bible Picture Book c. 1327-1335, http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/medieval/year/ large2163.html, seem to have aprons where the napkin has been slashed somehow to provide shoulder straps and waist ties. Does anyone have any thoughts on how these bib aprons might have been shaped or constructed? Thanks for your thoughts. Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:51 PM, otsisto wrote: And the Manesse Codex but men. 1340 http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203tfl=124 But not the waist tie ones. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
Yes, that's among the problems for me -- if a standard loom width was in the 22 to 36-inch range, well, they are lucky they were skinnier than we are, and that fabric will skew when tugged at the corners. But the woman blacksmith's apron in particular seems to be sort of pulling and draping as if the shoulder straps were originally part of the horizontal somehow. Having just played with a nice 40-inch hemmed linen square I happen to have here, I find that while some of those drapes do happen with it, a lot of the look in the pictures is more bias-y somehow. The straight-cut square makes even more drapes and folds than I'm seeing in the apron pictures. So I wonder if these simple aprons were cut on the diagonal. But the way the bottom hems are straight makes me doubt this. I will be mucking about with linen over the next week or so for other reasons anyway (I have shifts and veils and caps and coifs to make!) and will try some experiments in the apron direction while I am at it. Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 19, 2007, at 2:01 PM, Jean Waddie wrote: These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular waist aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a similar way to provide ties. You need an extremely large square to be able to just tie the corners around your waist. But it does seem very wasteful if they are cut in one piece as they seem to be. Jean Lauren Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote It looks like waist-height aprons were often a square of linen with the top corners tied behind the back. In these Manesse Codex aprons, the smiths' aprons look as if they could be tied like napkins around the neck. The seed-sower here in October of The Tres Riches Heures du Duc de Barry http://humanities.uchicago.edu/images/heures/october.jpg is definitely wearing some kind of simple square or rectangle tied round the neck. But this seed-sower seems to have a more constructed version: http://classes.bnf.fr/idrisi/grand/1_04.htm (Peasants in the field in Le Régime des princes) A woman blacksmith and a man in The Holkham Bible Picture Book c. 1327-1335, http://www.bl.uk/learning/images/medieval/year/ large2163.html, seem to have aprons where the napkin has been slashed somehow to provide shoulder straps and waist ties. Does anyone have any thoughts on how these bib aprons might have been shaped or constructed? Thanks for your thoughts. Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:51 PM, otsisto wrote: And the Manesse Codex but men. 1340 http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php? id=203tfl=124 But not the waist tie ones. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Jean Waddie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Jean Waddie wrote: These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular waist aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a similar way to provide ties. You need an extremely large square to be able to just tie the corners around your waist. But it does seem very wasteful if they are cut in one piece as they seem to be. When I need an apron, I take a linen rectangle (which I normally use as a napkin), tie a ribbon or cord around my waist with the bow in front, fold over the short edge of the napkin by a handsbreadth, and tuck it into the ribbon to hold it across my front. You wouldn't be able to tell from a distance that the ribbon isn't attached. I have no authority for how I do this and wouldn't present it as authentic, but it works, uses known technology, and looks like the pictures. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Jean Waddie wrote: These make me wonder whether the supposedly square / rectangular waist aprons, without a separate waistband, are extended in a similar way to provide ties. You need an extremely large square to be able to just tie the corners around your waist. But it does seem very wasteful if they are cut in one piece as they seem to be. When I need an apron, I take a linen rectangle (which I normally use as a napkin), tie a ribbon or cord around my waist with the bow in front, fold over the short edge of the napkin by a handsbreadth, and tuck it into the ribbon to hold it across my front. You wouldn't be able to tell from a distance that the ribbon isn't attached. I have no authority for how I do this and wouldn't present it as authentic, but it works, uses known technology, and looks like the pictures. --Robin I can see that for the narrow ones that hang flat. But can you reproduce the look of the ones that pull and drape, like the Bakery and Buttermaking ones? I find it particularly interesting that these don't seem to tie around the actual waist, but hang lower. -- Jean Waddie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons (again)
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, Jean Waddie wrote: I can see that for the narrow ones that hang flat. But can you reproduce the look of the ones that pull and drape, like the Bakery and Buttermaking ones? I find it particularly interesting that these don't seem to tie around the actual waist, but hang lower. No -- I haven't made a thorough study of these. I found one that worked for what I needed on the spot, and stuck with it. It would be interesting to see what someone could come up with after a broader perusal of the sources. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Aprons
A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an apron, with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lauren Walker Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 3:58 PM To: h-costume h-costume Subject: [h-cost] Aprons Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art. Does anyone have this info easily at hand? Thanks! Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
is it this? the chocolate girl by liotard, circa 1743: http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i don't work there or anything. and i think it would be funny if someone recognized it). On 1/13/07, Sharon at Collierfam.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an apron, with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part. Sharon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
- Original Message - From: Lauren Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: h-costume h-costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:58 AM Subject: [h-cost] Aprons Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art. Does anyone have this info easily at hand? Thanks! Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with aprons http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to be the Luttrell Psalter like Robin said. HTH Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Aprons
And the Manesse Codex but men. 1340 http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203tfl=124 But not the waist tie ones. De -Original Message- Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art. Does anyone have this info easily at hand? Thanks! Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with aprons http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to be the Luttrell Psalter like Robin said. HTH Elizabeth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
The Chocolate Girl is very popular with 18th century re-enactors, who love her jacket and, I think her cap. So if you wore the outfit around any 18th-C folk, they would definitely recognize the picture. Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 13, 2007, at 8:36 AM, jordana robinson wrote: is it this? the chocolate girl by liotard, circa 1743: http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i don't work there or anything. and i think it would be funny if someone recognized it). On 1/13/07, Sharon at Collierfam.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an apron, with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part. Sharon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
Elizabeth, Thank you very much for this link. The illustrations are particularly helpful. Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 13, 2007, at 7:05 AM, Elizabeth Walpole wrote: - Original Message - From: Lauren Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: h-costume h-costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 10:58 AM Subject: [h-cost] Aprons Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art. Does anyone have this info easily at hand? Thanks! Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with aprons http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to be the Luttrell Psalter like Robin said. HTH Elizabeth Elizabeth Walpole Canberra Australia ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au http://au.geocities.com/amiperiodornot/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
Thanks, De. This one is interesting, too. Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 13, 2007, at 3:51 PM, otsisto wrote: And the Manesse Codex but men. 1340 http://www.tempora-nostra.de/tempora-nostra/manesse.php?id=203tfl=124 But not the waist tie ones. De -Original Message- Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art. Does anyone have this info easily at hand? Thanks! Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] This page has a list of medieval and renaissance artworks with aprons http://www.larsdatter.com/aprons.htm the earliest seems to be the Luttrell Psalter like Robin said. HTH Elizabeth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Aprons
Lovely, but, no. I found the image. If you go to www.allposters.com and put in young girl with racket and shuttlecock, you will see it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jordana robinson Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 5:36 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Aprons is it this? the chocolate girl by liotard, circa 1743: http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i don't work there or anything. and i think it would be funny if someone recognized it). On 1/13/07, Sharon at Collierfam.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A friend of mine has a lovely poster of a girl (1700's)wearing an apron, with the top rectangle pinned on. Don't know about the bottom part. Sharon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
Hmm, yes, but, WHEN were they four? ;-) And could they tie the aprons themselves at that age? Sorry; end-of-week silliness. I would still like to know, you know, Who cares when they were four so long as they included chocolate in the cake icing, -C. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Aprons
Found a retangle apron at the waist in a burgundian site but is did not have the waist band. De -Original Message- Thanks, De. This one is interesting, too. Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
At 05:36 AM 1/13/2007, you wrote: is it this? the chocolate girl by liotard, circa 1743: http://artchive.com/artchive/L/liotard/chocolate_girl.jpg.html i'm always tempted to recreate that ensemble for halloween or the renaissance fair (i know it's like 100 years out of period, but i don't work there or anything. and i think it would be funny if someone recognized it). I notice that her apron strings seem to be long enough to cross in the back and come to the front to be tied. It's nice to see that the way I like to tie my apron at Sutter's Fort (c. 1846) has long historical roots. Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? When they are about 4 and start helping around the kitchen. Sorry, couldn't resist, -C. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
Hmm, yes, but, WHEN were they four? ;-) And could they tie the aprons themselves at that age? Sorry; end-of-week silliness. I would still like to know, you know, HISTORICALLY when, ahem. The Apron appeared. Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 12, 2007, at 7:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? When they are about 4 and start helping around the kitchen. Sorry, couldn't resist, -C. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
German Ladies were wearing them in the 16th century. Not neccessarily the beginning, but a point to start from. alex On 1/12/07, Lauren Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, yes, but, WHEN were they four? ;-) And could they tie the aprons themselves at that age? Sorry; end-of-week silliness. I would still like to know, you know, HISTORICALLY when, ahem. The Apron appeared. Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Jan 12, 2007, at 7:09 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? When they are about 4 and start helping around the kitchen. Sorry, couldn't resist, -C. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Aprons
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Alexandria Doyle wrote: German Ladies were wearing them in the 16th century. Not neccessarily the beginning, but a point to start from. They're in the Luttrell Psalter, early 1300s. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Aprons
the rectangular shape can be seen in the 1300s but when they added the waist tie I don't know. Some mid 1500s Germanic portraits look like they might have the waist tie. Sorry I have no specifics. De -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lauren Walker Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 5:58 PM To: h-costume h-costume Subject: [h-cost] Aprons Well, here is an utterly flatfooted query from me: Do we know when women began wearing aprons of the rectangle with waist strings type? Too many of my history-of-costume books are in storage right now and I just can't seem to recall when they start showing up in the art. Does anyone have this info easily at hand? Thanks! Lauren Lauren M. Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
