Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Because you bring up specific points in your rebuttal, I feel the need to address some the ones I perceive as misconceptions so those following can understand my thoughts. Until we all understand where each of us is coming from, we will never begin to truly discuss the issue. However, since we have essential taken over this thread, I feel we should take this into private emails - or create a separate thread so the original one can remain to its intent regarding books for the courses Kate is looking at teaching. On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: I don't think that's true. I've been on a number of e-groups related to sewing and pattern making, that include people with a wide variety of backgrounds. I don't see them refusing to talk to or help each other, at all. Not to argue, but I think that's a biased view-point. If they are on the list-serve already then they are already haring their knowledge. But is that a good portion of the whole or just a select few oddballs? I personally don't know any statistics but from what others have said and what I've seen, it's more the few oddballs than majority. Without actual statistics, it's only an educated guess. It really comes down to thesame basic steps that both sides follow, with slight changes in the order and importance each side places on those steps. No, it doesn't. There are very distinct differences in procedures, and even techniques, depending on whether you are making clothes for yourself, or custom making them for others, or making them for theatrical productions, or for a ready-to-wear business. For that matter, whether you are making modern clothes or historic ones. I'm talking about the basic core steps, which do transcend all the various options (making clothes for oneself, making theatrical costumes, RTW, historical, modern, etc.). I'll try to break it down and keep it simple so hopefully you can understand my thought process. - The client is established. It might be for oneself, the client might request a custom-made garment, the costumer determines a costume needs made, or a company's sample is ordered t market. Regardless, there is always a client before the garment is made. - Next, everyone develops the design. That design is often based on research as well as the desires of the client. -Once the design is finalized, everyone moves onto the pattern. Some draft it, some drape it, or use purchased patterns - but everyone uses a pattern. - The pattern is fit to the client. Some use samples/muslins, some fit before making the finished garment, some fit during construction, and often it takes a couple fittings. Some go back and correct the pattern before moving on. - The materials for the project are sourced. Some do this before the design, some before the pattern is made, some after the pattern - but at some point everyone sources materials. - The sewing process has to be established. Some is by instinct and common sense, some use the instructions with the purchased pattern, some use advice of others. But we all use similar steps in assembling garments. - The garment is sewn. This is the most obvious commonality because otherwise we don't have an end product. Some do it all themselves, some do it by hand, some use machines, some use assembly lines - but it is always sewn together. -Lastly, the garment is approved by the client and then belongs o the client. If not, the issues are fixed. After approval it does separate on whether the client simply wear their own work, the theater company uses it for their run, the client purchases - but in the end the client get the garment. The important thing to remember is that while we all use these core steps, the order they are used in and the the specific methods for each step do vary. We are all in the garment field, but our specific focuses DO vary. It they didn't, then we'd only need one degree program that would be the all-encompassing course of knowledge. We wouldn't need all the books and resources out there that are specialized to certain steps or methods. Because we have different focuses, different methods, and different clients, each segment of the field is unique and variations exist. But we mustn't ignore the commonalities that tie us together. I wasn't really seeing any problems with the ways the courses I took were set up. The thing is, there were basic dressmaking courses and advanced ones, and the instructors managed to accommodate students with a variety of goals. Then there were separate courses in flat pattern work, and in draping, and in grading patterns, and in merchandising. But: No one had to take any of these courses, other than dressmaking being required before taking pattern-making courses. No one who thought grading, or draping, or fashion illustration, or whatever would be useless for their purposes had to take that course. No one had to be a garment design and merchandising major to take
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Not to argue, but I think that's a biased view-point. If they are on the list-serve already then they are already haring their knowledge. But is that a good portion of the whole or just a select few oddballs? I personally don't know any statistics but from what others have said and what I've seen, it's more the few oddballs than majority. Without actual statistics, it's only an educated guess. Do we need statistics? We are on a list-serve. People are sharing their knowledge here. I personally have not found people to be at all unwilling to share information. Your mileage may vary. Can we get back to historical costuming now? There are people on this list who hold different views on things like, whether a given garment is totally authentic for a given wearer in a given period--and whether it even matters if the person wearing the garment is not a historical interpreter. I personally think that holding a different view is not a misconception. The point, however, is that everyone on this list already knows the basic steps of producing garments for their purposes. They do not need you to lecture them about it. You're not addressing a roomful of clueless newbies to whom you can dispense your wisdom about how the garment industry works--even though you're not working in it and just repeating what you heard on another forum. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: Can we get back to historical costuming now? That's what I've been trying to do! The point, however, is that everyone on this list already knows the basic steps of producing garments for their purposes. They do not need you to lecture them about it. You're not addressing a roomful of clueless newbies to whom you can dispense your wisdom about how the garment industry works--even though you're not working in it and just repeating what you heard on another forum. Then please don't patronize me the same way you claim I am. And I am working in the industry, not just repeating what I have been told. Yet I also am a costume designer and am knowledgable in those skills. And I do custom, period garments. Am I an expert? No, but I never claimed I am either. There are people on this list who hold different views on things like, whether a given garment is totally authentic for a given wearer in a given period--and whether it even matters if the person wearing the garment is not a historical interpreter. I personally think that holding a different view is not a misconception. I think that's a wonderful topic for discussion. Perhaps a new thread? Here are some questions that I've pondered. - Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable as historically accurate vs historically authentic? - With modern sewing skills and fads (such as zippers), where do we encorporate those skills to aid in construction of period garments, or do we insist on using the period methods? Michael. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
I think that's a wonderful topic for discussion. Perhaps a new thread? Here are some questions that I've pondered. - Where do we draw the line between what is acceptable as historically accurate vs historically authentic? - With modern sewing skills and fads (such as zippers), where do we encorporate those skills to aid in construction of period garments, or do we insist on using the period methods? Yeah, well, when this list started some years ago, the authenticity flame wars were scorching all our monitors. We've now achieved a live-and-let live attitude for which I am grateful. List members have recognized they do not all have identical goals, schedules, budgets, or issues like whether they can hand sew everything anyway because they have carpal tunnel. But at least, it's not historic costuming and not the modern ready-to-wear industry. I'll leave you guys to it, since I have a big wad of end-of-the-week book orders to fill. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Sorry, I meant, at least it IS historic costuming. Fran But at least, it's not historic costuming and not the modern ready-to-wear industry. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Bravo, Fran! What a cogent analysis of the problem. I have such a hard time getting across to people that theatrical costuming is not fashion design or couture or ready to wear or home sewing. It's about the play. Audy in the high boonies of Central Texas PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On 3/10/2011 1:52 PM, Lavolta Press wrote: Who's your audience? From what I recall from being a fashion design student at two different colleges, people seem to enter college fashion design programs for a number of different reasons: snip More comments: * In every course I was in, the students wanted to make garments for themselves, regardless of their goals for the course. If they were going to put all that time and money into making something they loved, they wanted to wear it. * We were always taught custom fitting. In one ready-to-wear course, the instructor paradoxically claimed that even though we were there to learn about ready-to-wear, a custom-fitted garment was always superior, so we spent a lot of time on fitting techniques. The students thought it was great, but again, it's not how the ready-to-wear industry works. There's no way anyone could have been induced to buy an industry dress form for a standard size and make all the clothes for it (considering none of the students were exactly an industry standard size, which of course was the point of the fitting lessons). One student wanted to make a dress for her sister. The instructor allowed it, but required that the sister show up in class for all the fitting sessions, because the whole point of the course was that we were not supposed to be at home teaching ourselves, but learning under supervision. The sister showed up, but she found the scheduling to be a pain because although she lived in the area, she attended a different college. * When I took couture courses we were required to make custom dress forms. I bought a foam form and customized it. A lot of the students got together and made them from paper-mache, duct tape not being trendy at the time. Paper mache was worse, as the student had to maintain a normal posture not only while she was being mummy wrapped, but while the structure dried. * Although I went through a whole ready-to-wear program at one college and couture at another, I encountered exactly one male student (in one of the RTW courses). He posed a whole set of problems for the instructor. The females were not allowed to fit him, and he had to be sent out of the room for all their fitting sessions. You understand we did fitting over underwear only, which of course was visible part of the time. The instructor did dictate that the female students had to wear not only bras and panties but full slips, regardless of their usual habits. This was merely to preserve decency among themselves. It was too heady for a male student to view. (He was a very nice, rather shy guy.) Even regardless of mores, no one wants to risk a sexual harassment suit. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
He posed a whole set of problems for the instructor. The females were not allowed to fit him, and he had to be sent out of the room for all their fitting sessions. snip The instructor also had to customize the whole course for him, due to the students always wearing their creations. He made a shirt, pants, and a jacket, but blouses, skirts, and dresses remained a mystery to him. Or at least, he was there for the lectures on on developing patterns for them and constructing them, but he didn't actually make any. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: * In every course I was in, the students wanted to make garments for themselves, regardless of their goals for the course. If they were going to put all that time and money into making something they loved, they wanted to wear it. There is some sense in doing this in the RTW learning process. Most fashion degree programs culminate in the creation of a line that is then shown as a final project. I know of at least one recent graduate (she's active on the forums I mentioned), who decided that since she was putting all this work into creating her line, she wanted to do it correctly so that it could be manufactured and earn back all the money she invested in the project to graduate. So a program geared with this in mind would be extremely beneficial but only if they themselves were the target market for their line. * We were always taught custom fitting ... it's not how the ready-to-wear industry works. There's no way anyone could have been induced to buy an industry dress form for a standard size and make all the clothes for it (considering none of the students were exactly an industry standard size, which of course was the point of the fitting lessons). This is a slight misconception and I'll avoid going into sizing issues. But while there are industrial sized dress forms, the industry standard size is a medium. The actual measurements of your line's medium is based on your target market and your fit model. A fit model is the actual model you will fit everything to - this is where the training on how to custom fit models comes in handy. Where the industry process differs from the home-sewing mindset is that after the sample (muslin in home-sewing world) is fit to the fit model, the pattern is then corrected to the new changes. The home-sewer takes the fit sample and finishes it off because the alterations were done on the almost finished garment. Lastly, that is extremely unforunate regarding your male classmate but I completely sympathize with him. As a male myself, most of the drafting books and courses out there are geared towards women's clothing - not men. Tailoring courses are for the male clothing yet unless you apprentice under a tailor, very few courses come close to covering the basics of drafting men's patterns. Michael Deibert OAS AAS LLS ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
This is a slight misconception and I'll avoid going into sizing issues. But while there are industrial sized dress forms, the industry standard size is a medium. The actual measurements of your line's medium is based on your target market and your fit model. A fit model is the actual model you will fit everything to - this is where the training on how to custom fit models comes in handy. Yes, I know. I did go through more than one RTW class. But, the average human body does not have identical proportions to either a standard industry dress form or an industry fit model. That's why ready-to-wear does not fit the average person well. Everyone is unique in terms of the combination of the shape of their shoulders, bust, hips, abdomen, behind, the length of their arms, and many other things. And that's not even counting people who are considered to be overweight or to have physical deformities/medical issues. Again, for many students, making something they cannot wear and that they are not currently in a position to sell is throwing away time and money. Students are typically short on both. And again, to a lot of them it sounds fancy to enter an RTW course but that's not really what they will do when they graduate. Colleges look at the numbers and if there are not enough students to justify a class, it's not given. I think it's a very good thing that all those teenagers are watching Project Runway and thinking, Cool! I want to learn to sew and design clothes! Because, if people want clothes with a custom fit, fine construction, and/or unique styling, they're typically going to be either spending more than a middle-class person can easily afford to get clothes made for them, or making their own clothes. Most ready-to-wear is pretty drecky. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com Where the industry process differs from the home-sewing mindset is that after the sample (muslin in home-sewing world) is fit to the fit model, the pattern is then corrected to the new changes. The home-sewer takes the fit sample and finishes it off because the alterations were done on the almost finished garment. Lastly, that is extremely unforunate regarding your male classmate but I completely sympathize with him. As a male myself, most of the drafting books and courses out there are geared towards women's clothing - not men. Tailoring courses are for the male clothing yet unless you apprentice under a tailor, very few courses come close to covering the basics of drafting men's patterns. Michael Deibert OAS AAS LLS ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Replying on my phone so I apologize for any typos I miss! And I apologize if I cone across as arguing, want to make sure we're on the same page in understanding even if it means I misunderstood something along the process of learning. No, the standard industry dress form does not work - unless you're one of the small group of people with the ideal measurement. In terms of learning though, the standard size allows teachers to easily see if something is wrong and needs corrected. It's ideal for learning but not for the real world. Unless I have misunderstood the concept (entirely possible btw!), your fit model should not be the industry standard in any measurements. When you develop a RTW line, the first major hurdle is determining the market. Is it young teenage girls who cannot afford to buy their clothes themselves? Or is it the 40-65 middle aged women who strive for a professional image? It is impossible to make clothing for the average customer. Nor is it possible to satisfy everyone in terms of sizing. Once the market is established and concise enough to be realistic, you create your sizes from the measurements and studies of your market. The size medium (or it's equivalent numerical size) is what sales reps and sample makers are used to working with. Your fit model then is sized according to the measurements of your line's size medium. I agree that it is frustrating to waste one's time on something that cannot be worn or sold but how else can they learn the process? The architect doesn't build a building while they're earning their degree... The wok with models until they learn and master the skills needed. I also am under the impression that many programs out there aren't suited for what the industry has in terms of job openings. There are plenty of amazing designers who've graduated but most don't want to do the manufacturing work themselves (or worse, they don't know how even after earning their degree!). I also am not a fan of Project Runway. I'm glad it seems to be leading kids to sew their own clothes that will fit them ... But it's equally pushing out designers who think it's easy to produce a line because that's how Project Runway does it. Also not a fan of the reality show aspect - the real industry is reality enough without adding more competition and challenges! But imagine if the kids watching the show, those who want to make clothes not to fit themselves but to fit others (because RTW is so crappy), and then are given the right skills to follow thru and produce their line - they will not only be successful, but will force those manufacturers who don't care about size to fix their doing issues and thereby bring the industry back to where it should be. That would be the ideal program of study. Michael Deibert OAS AAS LLS Sent from my iPhone On Mar 11, 2011, at 15:33, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com wrote: This is a slight misconception and I'll avoid going into sizing issues. But while there are industrial sized dress forms, the industry standard size is a medium. The actual measurements of your line's medium is based on your target market and your fit model. A fit model is the actual model you will fit everything to - this is where the training on how to custom fit models comes in handy. Yes, I know. I did go through more than one RTW class. But, the average human body does not have identical proportions to either a standard industry dress form or an industry fit model. That's why ready-to-wear does not fit the average person well. Everyone is unique in terms of the combination of the shape of their shoulders, bust, hips, abdomen, behind, the length of their arms, and many other things. And that's not even counting people who are considered to be overweight or to have physical deformities/medical issues. Again, for many students, making something they cannot wear and that they are not currently in a position to sell is throwing away time and money. Students are typically short on both. And again, to a lot of them it sounds fancy to enter an RTW course but that's not really what they will do when they graduate. Colleges look at the numbers and if there are not enough students to justify a class, it's not given. I think it's a very good thing that all those teenagers are watching Project Runway and thinking, Cool! I want to learn to sew and design clothes! Because, if people want clothes with a custom fit, fine construction, and/or unique styling, they're typically going to be either spending more than a middle-class person can easily afford to get clothes made for them, or making their own clothes. Most ready-to-wear is pretty drecky. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com Where the industry process differs from the home-sewing mindset is that after the sample (muslin in home-sewing world) is fit to the fit model, the
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
I agree that it is frustrating to waste one's time on something that cannot be worn or sold but how else can they learn the process? The person who originally posted was planning to teach a *beginning* sewing class. A great many people want to learn to sew, to custom fit, and to create patterns, without any intention of entering the ready-to-wear field. This is as it should be. Not everyone can enter that field, and not everyone wants to start a small business manufacturing ready-to-wear. I will not say that everyone can make their own clothes, even if they have the skills. People have time constraints, or they lose enthusiasm. But, it is still much more likely that the person who enters a beginning class can continue to make clothes for themselves, than it is they will find a job in the industry. Therefore, a beginning class that accommodates such students will be much more popular. And as I pointed out, a class that focuses on ready-to-wear sewing techniques, like the one I dropped out of because it was bad for my health, is a course in factory sewing on factory machines. The instructor actively helped to place students who wanted factory jobs into factories in the local garment industry (which used to be much more vital than it is today). But, not everyone wants to sew on the factory floor, not to mention most of that work gets outsourced to third-world countries these days. But will force those manufacturers who don't care about size to fix their doing issues and thereby bring the industry back to where it should be. That would be the ideal program of study. No matter what manufacturers do to sizing, they still will never custom fit the human body, unless they make clothes on a custom basis. Nor, I think, will most of them ever use fine seam finishes or do hand sewing except at the high price ranges. Remember, this is an e-list that focuses explicitly on making historic clothing. Of course, the styles, the fit, etc., vary a great deal with geographic location and historic era, and include garments that are not fitted, but draped around the body. But, most of us are custom making clothing, and much of it is for eras where garments are closely fitted, were custom fitted at the time, and are custom fitted by the people who make them now. Furthermore, everyone has personal fitting issues and sometimes these are discussed in great detail. Many people on this list are making very high-end and elaborate garments, whether unique or duplicated from period portraits or extant garments. Many of them do handwork such as hand sewing, embroidery, beading, etc., or they do spinning, weaving, dyeing, etc. Many list members have been doing all this for many years and have a high level of expertise in specialized fields. I am not saying that it's somehow wrong to make modern clothes or practice modern mass-manufacturing techniques, but that's not what most list members are doing. Even though some of them make modern as well as historic clothes for themselves, that's not the focus of this list. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Fran, I realy appreciate your take and advice on this trend and issue. Given the wide scope of researching ?historical costume and puting it together with contemporary interps of?this history, having an automatic market out there that will be clamoring to buy the designs in Any size does not bode well for a costume business...either in selling patterns or ready made clothing..? Anyone who can look at a picture/painting and presume to replicate the costume image is dealing with more than size, color, fabric. and etc. Expecting a Class that will allow you to be able to do this is not a real prospect ; then you are making Historical Costume just another factory project. Most of the costumes that are trying to be faithful copies of originals are/become originals in themselves because of the very fact they were designed and made?for the individuals who called them forth to begin with. ?kathleen who is always celebrating historical fashion by recreating it in miniature...Cut Down To Size? -Original Message- From: Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com Sent 3/11/2011 5:35:29 PM To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text? I agree that it is frustrating to waste one's time on something that cannot be worn or sold but how else can they learn the process? The person who originally posted was planning to teach a *beginning* sewing class. A great many people want to learn to sew, to custom fit, and to create patterns, without any intention of entering the ready-to-wear field. This is as it should be. Not everyone can enter that field, and not everyone wants to start a small business manufacturing ready-to-wear. I will not say that everyone can make their own clothes, even if they have the skills. People have time constraints, or they lose enthusiasm. But, it is still much more likely that the person who enters a beginning class can continue to make clothes for themselves, than it is they will find a job in the industry. Therefore, a beginning class that accommodates such students will be much more popular. And as I pointed out, a class that focuses on ready-to-wear sewing techniques, like the one I dropped out of because it was bad for my health, is a course in factory sewing on factory machines. The instructor actively helped to place students who wanted factory jobs into factories in the local garment industry (which used to be much more vital than it is today). But, not everyone wants to sew on the factory floor, not to mention most of that work gets outsourced to third-world countries these days. But will force those manufacturers who don't care about size to fix their doing issues and thereby bring the industry back to where it should be. That would be the ideal program of study. No matter what manufacturers do to sizing, they still will never custom fit the human body, unless they make clothes on a custom basis. Nor, I think, will most of them ever use fine seam finishes or do hand sewing except at the high price ranges. Remember, this is an e-list that focuses explicitly on making historic clothing. Of course, the styles, the fit, etc., vary a great deal with geographic location and historic era, and include garments that are not fitted, but draped around the body. But, most of us are custom making clothing, and much of it is for eras where garments are closely fitted, were custom fitted at the time, and are custom fitted by the people who make them now. Furthermore, everyone has personal fitting issues and sometimes these are discussed in great detail. Many people on this list are making very high-end and elaborate garments, whether unique or duplicated from period portraits or extant garments. Many of them do handwork such as hand sewing, embroidery, beading, etc., or they do spinning, weaving, dyeing, etc. Many list members have been doing all this for many years and have a high level of expertise in specialized fields. I am not saying that it's somehow wrong to make modern clothes or practice modern mass-manufacturing techniques, but that's not what most list members are doing. Even though some of them make modern as well as historic clothes for themselves, that's not the focus of this list. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Quickly to wrap this up since we seem to agree to disagree... and if you'd like to continue this because there are some interesting things brought up, feel free to send me a private email. First of all, Remember, this is an e-list that focuses explicitly on making historic clothing. I know exactly what this list is for, else I would not have signed up to recieve the postings. I too, make made-to-measure, custom designed period clothing. My degree is in theater with focus on costuming. The only thing holding me back from knowing and doing the same things others on here do is that I have not yet had the time to master all the skills. Even though this is a historical costume list-serve, everything mentioned in our discussion is completely relevent to original post of this thread. Now, onto the rest of it and only because it should explain why I initially went off topic as you proclaim. Here is the full context of the quote: *On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Kathryn Pinner pinn...@mccc.edu wrote: * *The powers that be at my community college (where I am a theatrical costume and set designer) have decided to start a Fashion Design and Merchandizing program (the push seems to be from the merchandizing/businesss side) and they are expecting me to teach the history of costume, basic sewing, and textiles.* The point I made was that they are starting a Fashion Design and Merchandizing *program*. Yes, Kate mentions that her courses are geared towards history of costume, basic sewing, and textiles. Yet, since she is one of the professors involved in the overall program, she can have input into what the course are - even is she might not actually teach them. [On a side note, history of costume would be of little help to a fashion design major - unless it covers the history of modern fashion or period fashion is become a mainstream revival without my knowledge.] Yes, many people want to learn to sew their own clothes that fit them. That is why all the community colleges around the area I live have continuing education classes, which are separate from their degree courses. A course such as the one you describe is better suited towards those courses, where the more specialized courses would be for those pursing that degree program. *The instructor actively helped to place students who wanted factory jobs into factories in the local garment industry (which used to be much more vital than it is today). But, not everyone wants to sew on the factory floor, not to mention most of that work gets outsourced to third-world countries these days. * True, the industry is not as vital today as it was even ten years ago. But actually, the current trend is bringing manufacturing back into the US because that is what the customers want - except there are no workers to do the work. The manufacturing field in the US is full of open jobs for the taking, yet most college graduates do not want to do actualy work but instead become the next overnight sensation. *No matter what manufacturers do to sizing, they still will never custom fit the human body, unless they make clothes on a custom basis. * Manufacturing clothing will never fit everyone perfectly - that's a fact that has not nor will change. That is one of many reasons there is the distinction between made-to-measure garments and those that are RTW manufactured. Michael Deibert OAS AAS LLS ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Regarding this quote, [On a side note, history of costume would be of little help to a fashion design major - unless it covers the history of modern fashion or period fashion is become a mainstream revival without my knowledge.] I disagree completely and must say so. Inspiration for new fashion designs comes from more than just the last century, from much more than just modern fashion. Designers look everywhere for their inspiration. Historic costume is one of the most valuable resources that any modern fashion designer can have. Fashion design majors need to study historic costume, both for inspiration and to understand where fashion came from. That 'history of costume would be of little help to a fashion design major' is just not right. I'm really, truly not out to start a fight here. I teach History of Costume. I also teach or have taught almost every class in one of those Fashion Design programs. I'm working to get more costume-oriented classes into our overall curriculum, to build up our Costume Construction certificate and to help open up job options for students in an area where there are several theater costume shops, but almost no apparel production. I'd like to suggest that taking some Costume History courses might surprise you. One of my major assignments, which happens every week of the course, has my students looking at modern fashion for details and elements that have their roots in historic apparel, all the way from ancient Egypt to the 20th century. It's truly wonderful to see how their perspective on fashion and the whole industry changes and grows. It seems like this is turning into a battle between the Fashion Design program people and the Historic Costume people. It shouldn't. We're all very much part of the same wonderful world of apparel and textiles...old and new. Don't you just love it? Laurie T. Phoenix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On Mar 11, 2011, at 8:06 PM, Michael Deibert wrote: [On a side note, history of costume would be of little help to a fashion design major - unless it covers the history of modern fashion or period fashion is become a mainstream revival without my knowledge.] When I was studying fashion design, there were two history of costume courses, covering before and after about 1840. Merchandising majors only were required to take the later course, and fashion required both. I would think the classes were useful to the Theater department, too. First of all, aren't the designers the ones who create various revivals? Often there is a movie that has an impact or inspiration to fashion, like Shakespeare in Love, or Out of Africa. Mad Men seems to be having an effect currently. One of the big benefits of the History of Costume class is that it teaches or reinforces research skills. For example, say a designer or custom seamstress or costumer wants to use cartridge pleats. What eras used them? Can I find pictures or artwork of people in them? Can I find extant examples, in a museum or in a vintage clothing store? How can I get the look using less fabric, did any era do that? How is it that a particular ensemble looks when all put together? There is more to a costume history class than chitons and hoop skirts. We had projects that involved research and we presented them to the class. The class taught us where to look for information, and that we had the capability to do that. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
First off let me apologize. It was a side comment that popped into my mind that almost didn't make it through to the final edited post. Perhaps my mind was preoccupied on the rest of the post that it made sense at the time? Regardless, upon both replies and rethinking it myself I have to say even I disagree with my own comment! [remember to think before typing next time!] And Laurie, no fight needed. We all are entitled to our thoughts, and its always best when they can be further supported such as both yours and Carol's. The history of costume/fashion [not to risk another side topic but I always find it hard to distinquish between the two yet both words have different connotations to most of society... hmmm...] is definitely something that is needed. In all honesty, I wish I had more! I think my bias is that the only course I had in studing for my degree was a combined Costume Design and Costume History course - geared only towards theater. So not only was it really half a course, but not once was the topic of how modern fashion draws conclusions from historical periods. It wasn't until I really focused in on theatrical costuming, that my interest in history in general grew - mostly because now I felt in order to understand how the changes in costume dictated/were dictated by changes in society. And Carol, anytime actual research methods are employed is a huge benefit to any degree. The world we live in seems to require proof before believing in something. Research provides that. Knowing not only how to reseach but, more importantly, how to apply that research to the use you need it to be is an extremely useful skill. And I'd be perfectly fine with a revival of the crinoline hoops or even the bustle! And before I create more mess and drama, I completely agree Laurie that it seems to have turned into the Fashion Design crowd versus the Historical Costume crowd... and here I am debating for both sides at the middle of the arguement! Extremely sorry, that was not my intent! But as you point out, there are multiple ways we are all alike. Regardless of the time period, both sides create a look based on research. Both sides use patterns of some kind to transfer that design into the 3D reality. We all are constantly sourcing for the right materials, be it for a certain look or certain price point. At some point in the process we perfect the pattern to the intended target wearer (be it one person or an entire age group). Almost always is there something that needs to be undone and resewn, or replanned, etc. Always. And after all that mess, both sides exit the process with a finished garment that meets all the requirements they were aiming for. It's only when we think we've learned everything we need to know, that we've only just begun to learn the lesson. Michael Deibert ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On 3/11/2011 5:04 PM, R Lloyd Mitchell wrote: Expecting a Class that will allow you to be able to do this is not a real prospect I'm not entirely sure what your point is. It is true that many historic techniques differ from modern ones, in fact they differ from one historic period to another. But, taking classes in modern sewing and pattern design did help me in creating historic garments. I actually embarked on my clothing design courses because I wanted to learn to create better historic clothing. I had some basic, largely self-taught sewing and pattern-making skills, but they were proving insufficient for what I wanted to do. Most of my instructors were fairly unsympathetic about my projects. (I did have an instructor for couture design and hand-sewing courses who was sympathetic.) But, I was allowed to design and construct whatever I wanted, provided I met the class guidelines about what techniques a given project was supposed to display. Generally, as a course progressed we were taught various techniques, then we had to make a project that displayed them. Then there would be another set of techniques and another project. I certainly have never wanted to create a ready-to wear collection of clothes for any historic era. I was taking courses so I could make exactly what I wanted. So were most other students. My ideas of what I wanted were more outre than most of theirs, though a couple of wearable art enthusiasts in my classes were pretty outre too. I actually have zero desire to make anything whatever for anyone else except, occasionally, my husband. Making clothes for other people generally means not making exactly what you want to make, and making them for manufacture (or theater) _really_ means not making what you want to make. I did consider taking theatrical costume design (one college gave one course in it, in the theater department), but looked into it and discovered how different stage costumes are from wearable clothes, even historic ones I agree with Carol that considering how heavily mainstream fashion mines the styles of previous periods, and how long that's been going on (since 1800 at least), a history of costume course is a must for modern designers. I actually never took one. By the time I started taking clothing design classes I'd already done a fair amount of reading and the course syllabus didn't look like anything new. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
So not only was it really half a course, but not once was the topic of how modern fashion draws conclusions from historical periods. I was going to college in a period when modern fashion was drawing very heavily from both folk and historic clothing. The instructors were well aware of that and constantly pointing out how various Paris and NY designers were using and putting together various elements. What was weird about me is that I really wanted to make historic clothing, not just borrow a collar from here and a sleeve from there. And Carol, anytime actual research methods are employed is a huge benefit to any degree. The world we live in seems to require proof before believing in something. Research provides that. I was a history major, not a clothing design major (most of the time). Historical research very often does not, in fact, _prove_things. What research does is provide information, often with significant gaps, that can be analyzed, and then a plausible theory can be constructed. Go to a senior seminar, and you can hear 20 students come up with 20 different equally plausible theories based on the same facts, and equally well supported by good arguments. It's very illuminating. This doesn't mean that everyone should collapse in total confusion because interpretations differ. But, history is a social science, not a hard science. And before I create more mess and drama, I completely agree Laurie that it seems to have turned into the Fashion Design crowd versus the Historical Costume crowd... I wasn't aware that there was a Fashion Design Crowd here. Fran Lavolta Press Books of historic clothing patterns www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
First, I don't think there exists a state that actually has money right now - but that's a whole nothing topic! I am definitely not talking about courses offered by fabric stores - unless one is an absolute complete beginner and even then, the projects are way too simple. Also, tuition is going up everywhere - unfortunately because it also means that many future students might not get their education now because of the increases. As to the dream situation you refer to, its unfortunately not as easy as that. Both sides (the aspiring amateur and the industry professionals) are much more alike than either would like to agree. Except neither side is willing to even talk to each other, let alone share the information that would help bridge the chasm between the two. It really comes down to the same basic steps that both sides follow, with slight changes in the order and importance each side places on those steps. But most programs out their focus solely on one or the other. Simple work on the cooperation, perhaps even collaboration with certificate programs instead of full out degree programs, would provide students with skills they need to get a job after they graduate. I hope that makes sense. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
As to the dream situation you refer to, its unfortunately not as easy as that. Both sides (the aspiring amateur and the industry professionals) are much more alike than either would like to agree. Except neither side is willing to even talk to each other, let alone share the information that would help bridge the chasm between the two. I don't think that's true. I've been on a number of e-groups related to sewing and pattern making, that include people with a wide variety of backgrounds. I don't see them refusing to talk to or help each other, at all. It really comes down to the same basic steps that both sides follow, with slight changes in the order and importance each side places on those steps. No, it doesn't. There are very distinct differences in procedures, and even techniques, depending on whether you are making clothes for yourself, or custom making them for others, or making them for theatrical productions, or for a ready-to-wear business. For that matter, whether you are making modern clothes or historic ones. People making clothes for themselves simply don't have to worry about grading for a range of RTW sizes, marketing, or manufacturing. And, they can make whatever they want, aside from constraints imposed by their personal budgets and schedules. They can be as unfashionable or outre as their lifestyle permits. They also don't have to carry out a theatrical director's vision of a production. People making clothes for theater have to deal with the director's vision, plus struggle with the actors' visions if the actors decide to be a pain, plus (usually) a tight budget, plus (at least for stage) the constraints of quick changes, the appearance of the costume from the back of the theater and under lights, and the likely necessity of altering the size of the costume later for some future production with a different actor. People making clothes for a small ready-to-wear business have to design salable styles, they have to design whole product lines, they have to get them manufactured, and they have to market them. They have to run a small business and deal with all the accounting, legal regulations, and other issues. And then there are variants for people making custom clothing for others, and people designing ready-to-wear for a large manufacturer. The basic sewing level isn't even the same. As I've pointed out, in a factory the stitchers use specialized machines and they do not make whole garments. Not to mention, people don't cut around individual garments with shears. As far as I know, they use computer-driven laser knives. The pattern-making level is sort of the same, except, people making clothes for themselves do not need to grade a range of ready-to-wear sizes. In fact, some will quite happily use commercial patterns and just alter the size to fit. Another issue is, there are different methods of producing patterns (drafting, flat pattern work, and draping). People working for an employer, whether a theater or a ready-to-wear company, cannot necessarily choose which method they use. Also, at RTW companies the pattern-making process is much more computerized. Designers are not drawing around slopers with a pencil and then slashing and spreading the paper. Yes, some amateurs use pattern-design software but in the industry it is a necessity. In fact, the designer may well farm out making the patterns to someone else, and that goes for theatrical design as well. But most programs out their focus solely on one or the other. Simple work on the cooperation, perhaps even collaboration with certificate programs instead of full out degree programs, would provide students with skills they need to get a job after they graduate. I hope that makes sense. I wasn't really seeing any problems with the ways the courses I took were set up. The thing is, there were basic dressmaking courses and advanced ones, and the instructors managed to accommodate students with a variety of goals. This was achieved largely by letting students choose their own projects insofar as the learning goals of that part of the course were achieved. Then there were separate courses in flat pattern work, and in draping, and in grading patterns, and in merchandising. But: No one had to take any of these courses, other than dressmaking being required before taking pattern-making courses. No one who thought grading, or draping, or fashion illustration, or whatever would be useless for their purposes had to take that course. No one had to be a garment design and merchandising major to take the classes. Theatrical costume design courses are usually part of the theater department. But they have to be, because usually they are organized so the students are making the costumes for an upcoming production. That doesn't leave much room for students to choose their own projects. I'm just not seeing a huge problem here. Oh, I'm not saying every
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Is this a new degree program? How many courses will be required for the new degree and do you have any control over what they might, or could be? In terms of those books, I personally don't know either. But unless it is a course entirely on costume history, I would advise to give brief lectures of each period. This is how the Costume History course I had was taught. (Granted it was combined equally with costume design so the time was really limited.) But my professor spent one of the two classes each week on a time period, starting from the Egyptians and working forward in history. It was a very brief into to each period but it covered the basic differences as the era's changed - enough to cover costume history but if one wanted a further knowledge, they then knew terms and resources to research. We did not have a required book in the costume history portion, however on our syllabus were listed a couple books that were recommended to purchase. Many of these could even be bought second-hand for cheap. On another note, if they are pushing for a fashion design degree with the aims of being able to design and then produce a line, then I would highly recommend Kathleen Fasanella's book *The Entrapreneur's Guide to Sewn Product Manufacturing*. It is the only book of its kind, and it is aimed soley at Design Entrepreneurs (DE's) in any sewn product field. Within its pages, there is real-world, industry advice on everything from what not to do, to how to go through every stage of the process. She wrote and published it herself, so it can be quite frank at times but the points she makes are worth it! She has a blog at http://www.fashion-incubator.com/. For the purchase of a new book, anyone can then gain access to the members only forum where everyone is somehow connected to the industry and there are many DE's on there in the process of developing lines - I'm one of them! Currently, most fashion design schools worry all about the designing element and put little emphasis on actual manufacturing. If your community college focus on the degree from this angle, not only will it be a unique program out there but the students who earn that degree will be able to actually get jobs. Most fashion school graduates are unprepared for the industry and the industry is way oversaturated with amazing designers who can't manufacture their designs because their education lacked those skills. And if it helps, my degree is in theatrical costuming, not fashion. Most of the DE's on Kathleen's site did not go to fashion schools either and those who did only have a slight advantage over those who didn't but mostly in skill such as patternmaking or such. Hope this helps, and at the least check out Kathleen's blog. She also replies to emails and has even talked to people over the phone before to help them out. Michael Deibert On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Kathryn Pinner pinn...@mccc.edu wrote: The powers that be at my community college (where I am a theatrical costume and set designer) have decided to start a Fashion Design and Merchandizing program (the push seems to be from the merchandizing/businesss side) and they are expecting me to teach the history of costume, basic sewing, and textiles. They seem to be leaning toward using books from Pearson and the the text for costume history they are looking at is 'History of World Costume and Fashion' by Daniel Delis Hill. Anyone know this text and have a comment? (I suggested 'Survey of Historic Costume' by Tortora Eubanks -- don't know if they will listen to me). Other texts they are looking at are 'The Sewing Book' by Alison Smith and 'Textiles' by Kadolph. Any comments? Kate Pinner ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
and 'Textiles' by Kadolph. Any comments? I used an earlier edition of this text for a college class and it is *extremely* thorough. Very good material. If you contact the publisher, you may be able to find out when her new books comes out. She is writing a more basic text designed for community college classes, but I don't know the name. Denise B Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
Who's your audience? From what I recall from being a fashion design student at two different colleges, people seem to enter college fashion design programs for a number of different reasons: * They want to make clothes for themselves, clothes that are custom fit and are well made. They want to wear better quality than ready-to-wear and perhaps save money, plus they enjoy the creativity of making clothes. Occasionally they have avant-garde or wearable art tastes and just can't buy what they envision themselves wearing. In my experience, the vast majority of students merely wanted to make good clothes for themselves. What the instructor said about, Pay attention to what the Paris shows say will be worn next season, or This is how designs are evaluated by a ready-to-wear manufacturer, was interesting, but nothing most students really needed or cared about much. Working in the industry sounds glamorous to a lot of people who don't really want to do it. * They really want to enter the ready-to-wear industry. At one college, the program for this started with stitching, in a factory-like atmosphere with industrial machines. The students repeatedly stitched nothing but one thing, for example, practicing attaching patch pockets to pieces of fabric till they could do it not only perfectly, but very fast. I dropped out after a week or so, after leaving every class with an incredible headache and partial deafness for the next hour (because of the noise of the machines). I did learn the principle that if you want to get really good, practice techniques intensively outside of using them to make a garment. As the instructor pointed out, the techniques and machines used in ready-to-wear are different from those used in home sewing. It's the same with the garment design process. Note, the students insisted on making one dress for themselves at the end of the semester and the instructor let them do it, not because the same person usually sews the entire garment in the factory but because the students felt dissatisfied if they did not make at least one entire garment they could wear. * They want to run a small business being custom dressmakers. Such students are likely to be more interested than average in the fine techniques used for the best bridal and evening wear. * They want to do theatrical costume design, but the college does not have a course specifically for that. I think these goals are all opposed to each other to some extent. If you really focus a course on factory techniques or on working in a ready-to-wear business, you are likely to lose the amateur sewers, even if they are enthused about improving their skills. If you really focus a course on doing very good home sewing, the people who are determined to enter the industry will find little meat in it. Frankly, my sister-in-law was a vice-president for a couple of local garment companies, and she can't even sew on a button. She's never used a sewing machine in her life. And she reorganized an entire factory (to improve efficiency) for one company! There are many good home-sewing manuals that describe all or at least most of the techniques a home sewer will ever want to use, except for in-depth information on the various kinds of fancy handwork. I do not have them all. However, some people learn visually and some learn textually. Manuals that are mostly text often frustrate visual learners, but manuals that are mostly pictures often annoy textual learners. You need a manual that has a balance of pictures and text. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com On 3/10/2011 12:37 PM, Kathryn Pinner wrote: The powers that be at my community college (where I am a theatrical costume and set designer) have decided to start a Fashion Design and Merchandizing program (the push seems to be from the merchandizing/businesss side) and they are expecting me to teach the history of costume, basic sewing, and textiles. They seem to be leaning toward using books from Pearson and the the text for costume history they are looking at is 'History of World Costume and Fashion' by Daniel Delis Hill. Anyone know this text and have a comment? (I suggested 'Survey of Historic Costume' by Tortora Eubanks -- don't know if they will listen to me). Other texts they are looking at are 'The Sewing Book' by Alison Smith and 'Textiles' by Kadolph. Any comments? Kate Pinner ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On another note, if they are pushing for a fashion design degree with the aims of being able to design and then produce a line, then I would highly recommend Kathleen Fasanella's book *The Entrapreneur's Guide to Sewn Product Manufacturing*. On Amazon I searched on Fashion Design, and also found How to Set Up and Run a Fashion Label,Basics Fashion Design: Developing a Collection, 200 Projects to Get You into Fashion Design, How to Open and Operate a Financially Successful Fashion Design Business, (this seems very similar the The Entrepreneur's Guide,) and a number of other books on setting up and running your own design business, as well as books I have not mentioned that focus entering the industry by working for other companies. Some of these books look excellent, for anyone interested in these topics. Fran Lavolta Press Books on making historic clothing www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On 3/10/2011 3:37 PM, Kathryn Pinner wrote: The powers that be at my community college (where I am a theatrical costume and set designer) have decided to start a Fashion Design and Merchandizing program (the push seems to be from the merchandizing/businesss side) and they are expecting me to teach the history of costume, basic sewing, and textiles. They seem to be leaning toward using books from Pearson and the the text for costume history they are looking at is 'History of World Costume and Fashion' by Daniel Delis Hill. Anyone know this text and have a comment? (I suggested 'Survey of Historic Costume' by Tortora Eubanks -- don't know if they will listen to me). Other texts they are looking at are 'The Sewing Book' by Alison Smith and 'Textiles' by Kadolph. Any comments? I've actually got a desk copy of Kadolph coming -- and I like the swatch kit that they can get with it. I didn't know that there was a costume book too, or I would have had my Pearson Rep send me a copy of that one too. I 3 my Pearson rep! Susan (who teaches biology!) -- Susan Farmer sfar...@goldsword.com Abraham Baldwin Agricultural College Division of Science and Math http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] History of Costume text?
On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.comwrote: On another note, if they are pushing for a fashion design degree with the aims of being able to design and then produce a line, then I would highly recommend Kathleen Fasanella's book *The Entrapreneur's Guide to Sewn Product Manufacturing*. On Amazon I searched on Fashion Design, and also found How to Set Up and Run a Fashion Label,Basics Fashion Design: Developing a Collection, 200 Projects to Get You into Fashion Design, How to Open and Operate a Financially Successful Fashion Design Business, (this seems very similar the The Entrepreneur's Guide,) and a number of other books on setting up and running your own design business, as well as books I have not mentioned that focus entering the industry by working for other companies. Some of these books look excellent, for anyone interested in these topics. While I cannot attest to the books you mentioned, Kathleen Fasanella's book *The Entrepreneur's Guide to Sewn-Product Manufacturing* is NOT a book on how to start a fashion design business, how to start a sewn manufacturing business, etc. She takes one page and goes over a very short, brief run down of things like that. It's actually quite humorous! Her take on it is there are way too many books out there on how to actually get a business started, regardless of whether its in fashion or sewn products - and she is quite right. What her book does cover, are things that no other book has covered before. Her book is actually known as the blue book in the industry know for those who know of it. Some of the topics covered are: How to plan a line, style numbers, What are blocks, Determining market entry, Producting Scheduling, Sale's Reps, Market trends: what customers want, Producting costing, Setting up shop, Improving product quality, Cutting a pattern for shrinkage, Why DE's are destined to succeed, and many more. She even has the full table of contents on here website, and some chapters are free to preview. Here's the link: http://www.fashion-incubator.com/products_services/table-of-contents/. I recommend anyone interested in this to check it out - even if you are just looking to achieve that professional, industry standard look (which btw is not because of industrial secret techniques, but rather because the pattern and the process are perfected that they can be quickly sewn in repetition for large orders and still have the same qualifing markers in all finished garments.) And no, Kathleen is not paying me to advertise her book or anything like that. I have learned more from her one book than I have any of the other books I've read and looked into getting. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
