RE: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
-Original Message- http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Mona_Lisa.jpeg I'm only looking at the online picture, but I think that thing by her left shoulder might be a leaf or palm or something, that she is holding in her left hand. See how her fingers are positioned? and it doesn't seem to sit right for fabric draped over her shoulder. Jean There is nothing in her hands. Lets try this one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Mona_Lisa.jpg On her left upper arm there appears to be a dark shear material covering the arm and that you can see what looks like the chemise sleeve between the armseye and the sleeve. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Did they say how much of her dress was covered? I just assumed the upper chest (which is sometimes covered by the veils/whatever about which you and I are talking), and I'm pretty sure that the dress styles included ones with a pretty high neckline. Of course, it's been a while since I looked at them, so I may be wrong. I thought it worth pursuing as an alternative explanation is all. ;o) --Sue - Original Message - From: Audrey Bergeron-Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa Actually, it sounds like they're talking about a distinct style that I've seen in lots of ItalianRen paintings, although usually a little more obviously in view. They look (to my fading memory) like an early cross between a fichu and a partlet --Sue Oh, THOSE. But if it were that, it wouldn't cover her dress, only the open neckline. Too few explanations and too much guessing... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
otsisto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Note the Mona Lisa's left shoulder. There seems to be a shear something which I do not think is her veil. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Mona_Lisa.jpeg I'm only looking at the online picture, but I think that thing by her left shoulder might be a leaf or palm or something, that she is holding in her left hand. See how her fingers are positioned? and it doesn't seem to sit right for fabric draped over her shoulder. Jean -- Jean Waddie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Could they be thinking of something like this. http://tinyurl.com/e8esf But then, perhaps not. Note the Mona Lisa's left shoulder. There seems to be a shear something which I do not think is her veil. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Mona_Lisa.jpeg De w/ a 101 temp. so take my post with a grain o' salt. -Original Message- Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: Don't know of this, but if true, could be for privacy/modesty during nursing. Just a thought. If they're describing it as a gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress then I doubt it was worn for modesty. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
otsisto wrote: Could they be thinking of something like this. http://tinyurl.com/e8esf Oooh! Thanks for hunting that up. Yes, I think they could be. Does this lady look pregnant to you? She does to me. But then, perhaps not. Note the Mona Lisa's left shoulder. There seems to be a shear something which I do not think is her veil. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Mona_Lisa.jpeg One of the articles I read the other day said that part of the original veil/gauze was still visible on the left side, but was mistaken for part of the background. I don't know if they meant the viewer's left, or the sitter's left. :( Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Actually, it sounds like they're talking about a distinct style that I've seen in lots of ItalianRen paintings, although usually a little more obviously in view. They look (to my fading memory) like an early cross between a fichu and a partlet --Sue - Original Message - From: Audrey Bergeron-Morin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa If they're describing it as a gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress then I doubt it was worn for modesty. Didn't Queen Elizabeth wear such a gauzy overdress on some of her portraits? She sure didn't give birth... And I'm pretty sure I've seen other portraits with this too... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Actually, it sounds like they're talking about a distinct style that I've seen in lots of ItalianRen paintings, although usually a little more obviously in view. They look (to my fading memory) like an early cross between a fichu and a partlet --Sue Oh, THOSE. But if it were that, it wouldn't cover her dress, only the open neckline. Too few explanations and too much guessing... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IN the last day or so, there have been a number of reports on the intensive laser scan that a Canadian outfit is doing on DaVinci's Mona Lisa. In addition to a number of other new information, they are saying that they have detected a gauze veil on her head that they are claiming demonstrates that she had just given birth. I don't know about the symbology of the veil they are talking about, but the reports are saying it was placed over her dress, not on her head. There's also talk of a 'bonnet'. I've copied a few quotes below, from several articles, there seems to be some variation in what's being reported and quoted. Dawn The NRC study discovered, under dark varnish, a previously unseen gauzy, veil-like cloth hanging from the bodice of Mona Lisa's dress. Such a garment was common in Renaissance Italy for women who had recently given birth, French and Canadian scientists said during a news conference yesterday at NRC headquarters. Dark varnish had also made invisible a newly discovered small bonnet worn on the back part of Mona Lisa's head. The bonnet peeks through the varnish only with the aid of the NRC's high-tech laser vision. Thanks to laser scanning, we were able to uncover the very fine gauze veil Mona Lisa was wearing on her dress. This was something typical for either soon-to-be or new mothers at the time, Michel Menu, research director of the French Museums' Center for Research and Restoration, said on LCI television. It said other details obscured by darkened paint and varnish included the hair originally being in a bun and a slightly different posture, as well as the gauze dress. This type of gauze dress ... was typical of the kind worn in early 16th Century Italy by women who were pregnant or who had just given birth, said Bruno Mottin of the French Museums' Center for Research and Restoration. Using infrared technology that allowed them to see more clearly beneath dark varnish, the scientists found that Leonardo da Vinci's model had a gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress that was typically worn by pregnant women of the time, or mothers who had recently given birth. The model for Mona Lisa was Lisa Gherardini, the wife of Francesco del Giocondo, a Florentine cloth merchant. The discovery of the filmy garment, sewn to her dress at the shoulders, means the painting was commissioned to celebrate the birth of her third child, also found that in addition to her veil, Mona Lisa was wearing a dark bonnet which cannot be seen under the layer of varnish. It was applied long after Leonardo da Vinci died, ... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Not my period either, but I find it amusing they've had to use intensive laser scanning to detect something I (and I suppose most others here) could see just by looking at a photograph in a book. I never realised 'no-one' had seen it. It's quite obvious around her hairline. Glenda. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Glenda Robinson wrote: Not my period either, but I find it amusing they've had to use intensive laser scanning to detect something I (and I suppose most others here) could see just by looking at a photograph in a book. I never realised 'no-one' had seen it. It's quite obvious around her hairline. They're not talking about the veil on her head. They are claiming to have discovered a gauzy veil over her clothing, it's been called an 'overdress' in a few of the articles. It's so transparently painted that it's disappeared under the layer of varnish and grime on the canvas. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: Don't know of this, but if true, could be for privacy/modesty during nursing. Just a thought. If they're describing it as a gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress then I doubt it was worn for modesty. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
I think the main problem is that we are so used to seeing paintings that have been air-brushed in media. There are plenty of painting, textiles, costumes, that have been in private and institutional collections that have lost so much in detail lost to grime or aging process. I recall being so disappointed with seeing a very popular painting in a museum. It was so cracked that it looked nothing like what we know it as. Someone had to tell me what it was and I sat for 30 minutes looking at it. The controversy among our field of interest, historic costume is to restore or not. And if chosen to restore, is the funding and expertise available. A very big dealer told me recently concerning restoration... that either costume dies a quick death if the restoration fails. If you have succeeded and saved its life, the costume will shine its glory for several more generations to learn from. I have recently been dabbling in restoration. I talked with several people as how to go about it. I can't tell you how rewarding it is to bring something back to life! I am working with items that I call the ICU of costumes. One of my long term goals is to learn beading and work on some of the 1920s dresses or what were once dresses. I want to piece to them together for the beading patterns and document them. I am doing this at my own expensive. Universities don't budget for these things or think that the beading patterns of an era or important except if they belonged to a famous person. But I know the beauty of the designs are there. And I am learning a new skill One of my restoration projects is a 19th Century bonnet of thin netting and pineapple straw. The straw lace has held up wonderfully but the netting is gone on one half of the bonnet. I have looked and looked at this bonnet and I think I can really save it. When I took it out of the box, it was all meshed together. It took a while to get it untangled. But it will be an interesting challenge for me. Penny Ladnier, Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com www.costumelibrary.com www.costumeclassroom.com www.costumeencyclopedia.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
As a proud Canadian, standing on guard for thee, trusty ally to Britain and the U.S. in peace and war, etc. etc. yadda, yadda, I winced a bit at the reference to the Canadian outfit (which makes it sound as if the local cowboys, hunting lodge or wedding videotapers had a go at it);-). http://iit-iti.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/projects-projets/monalisa-lajoconde_e.html The National Research Council Canada which particpated in this exercise has been around for a long time and is fairly reputable scientific organization. They have cooperated with NASA and the Canadarm, if I recall correctly. Granted, they may know richard-all about costume quirks of fecund women during Leonardo's period, but it was one of the French collaborators that made that claim. A brief blurb: NRC-IIT is dedicated to RD in software and systems technologies. The Institute is a key player in RD collaborations and partnerships in information and telecommunications technologies with business, universities and government agencies, in Canada and around the world. NRC-IIT conducts scientific research, develops technology, creates knowledge and supports innovation with the aim of having a beneficial and profound impact on Canadian society. NRC-IIT blends the long-term vision inherent in leading-edge science with a capacity to adapt to emerging ST issues and priorities. The maple leaf forever.. (sung offkey and forgetting half the words) Sheridan Alder - Original Message - From: Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa Sharon at Collierfam.com wrote: Don't know of this, but if true, could be for privacy/modesty during nursing. Just a thought. If they're describing it as a gauzy, nearly transparent layer over her dress then I doubt it was worn for modesty. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
Sheridan, It is wonderful the Canadians have this technology. Big kudos! It makes me wonderful what is under the vanish, dirt, and such so many other paintings. Penny Ladnier, Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com www.costumelibrary.com www.costumeclassroom.com www.costumeencyclopedia.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Mona Lisa
-- david webb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a proud Canadian, standing on guard for thee, trusty ally to Britain and the U.S. in peace and war, etc. etc. yadda, yadda, I winced a bit at the reference to the Canadian outfit (which makes it sound as if the local cowboys, hunting lodge or wedding videotapers had a go at it);-). No offense meant to our Neighbors Ta Da Nort', eh! I just couldn't remember the correct name as I was typing. And since I come from Chicago, calling stuff an 'outfit' just seems to come naturally. 8-) The National Research Council Canada which particpated in this exercise has been around for a long time and is fairly reputable scientific organization. They have cooperated with NASA and the Canadarm, if I recall correctly. Granted, they may know richard-all about costume quirks of fecund women during Leonardo's period, but it was one of the French collaborators that made that claim. I have no doubt that the tech is spot on and that they have found what they say they have found. However, since I have a more than passing interest in historic costume and am reasonably familiar with Renaissance clothing yet have never encountered something that was specifically indicative of about-to and just-given birth, I thought I'd toss that out to the list whose collective wisdom on matters of historic costume is always impressive. It just smells like a Costume Myth to me.but I could be wrong Karen Seamstrix ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
