Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology
Cynthia Virtue wrote: Adele de Maisieres wrote: People here practically use t-tunic as a techinical term. It means a basic tunic with a rectangular front and back, unshaped sleeve heads, small square gussets at the armpit and two-piece gores in the side-seam. Great shorthand when you want to use that as a starting pount for descriding something -- ie, it's just like a t-tunic only it has additional gores at the cente front and back etc. Interesting -- to me, it's not really a proper tunic without center front and back gores. Otherwise that's a great description. Where's here? NZ on your email means New Zealand, I'd guess? Yup, Christchurch, New Zealand. -- Adele de Maisieres - Quot homines, tot sententiae. - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Marc Carlson wrote: From: Cynthia Virtue [EMAIL PROTECTED] Did you skip a cite there? I don't see something which says it wasn't worn with some kind of body linen layer under it. a body garment or coat seems to imply tunic could apply to both layers. I think we're interpretting what the body applies to alone, or 'garment or coat equally. You may well be right, I don't know. The MED quote you gave was A garment resembling a shirt or gown, worn alone or beneath a mantle, armor, etc. It sounds to me that they were contrasting worn alone as versus worn with another layer over it. I don't see any implication as to whether anything was or wasn't worn *under* it. Underwear (being unseen and also not much thought about by non-clothing historians) is typically ignored in these types of definitions. In the same way, I might say that the fitted dress could be worn alone or with a sideless surcote or houppeland over it, but that wouldn't mean that there's no chemise beneath. The phrase body garment was used not in the same quote as alone; it was in another source, the OED, as you quote: In Old English and mediaeval times, a body garment or coat over which a loose mantle of cloak was worn. My understanding is that body garment doesn't mean body linen or worn against the body -- it means a major garment designed to cover the body (that is, the torso, with or without limbs), e.g. a gown or shirt or coat. It's used in the same way that headdress is a generic term for a garment covering the head or footwear is a general term for garments covering the feet. I suppose body garment could be applied to garments that cover part of the body, particularly taken as a set (e.g. a man's suit), but usually individual garment names are used to distinguish pieces like trousers, blouses, skirts. As a category, they can all be lumped in as body garments as opposed to headdress and footwear. As I've been accustomed to reading it, if there's any implication of layer in body garment, it's typically a visible layer. I probably wouldn't blink to see a chemise described as a body garment, though. It's a very generic categorical term. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology
Marc Carlson wrote: Let's first establish what a tunic is: according to the Oxford Mnglish Dictionary and Middle English Dictionary, a Tunic (for the middle ages at least) is A garment resembling a shirt or a gown, worn by both sexes among the Greeks and Romans (OED), In Old English and mediaeval times, a body garment or coat over which a loose mantle of cloak was worn. (OED) and A garment resembling a shirt or gown, worn alone or beneath a mantle, armor, etc. (MED) In other words, it is a simple shirt/gown, worn next to the body, as opposed to the usual kirtles/gowns, etc, which are worn with a shirt/camisa under them, Did you skip a cite there? I don't see something which says it wasn't worn with some kind of body linen layer under it. a body garment or coat seems to imply tunic could apply to both layers. Puzzling, cv ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology
Charlene Charette wrote: My understanding is (and it may be flawed of course) is that T-tunic has traditionally referred to the fold over cut and sew up the side, but otherwise unconstructed sort of tunic. When you start attaching sleeves, or sticking in gores, you are making a constructed garment. Pesonally, I'm not thrilled with the term T-tunic in the first place, but whatever. People here practically use t-tunic as a techinical term. It means a basic tunic with a rectangular front and back, unshaped sleeve heads, small square gussets at the armpit and two-piece gores in the side-seam. Great shorthand when you want to use that as a starting pount for descriding something -- ie, it's just like a t-tunic only it has additional gores at the cente front and back etc. -- Adele de Maisieres - Quot homines, tot sententiae. - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology
Adele de Maisieres wrote: pount for descriding something I'm clearly having one of those days. But I'd like to define the word descride as-- v.t. to describe dismissively or unkindly. -- Adele de Maisieres - Quot homines, tot sententiae. - ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] RE: Tunic terminology
Adele de Maisieres wrote: People here practically use t-tunic as a techinical term. It means a basic tunic with a rectangular front and back, unshaped sleeve heads, small square gussets at the armpit and two-piece gores in the side-seam. Great shorthand when you want to use that as a starting pount for descriding something -- ie, it's just like a t-tunic only it has additional gores at the cente front and back etc. Interesting -- to me, it's not really a proper tunic without center front and back gores. Otherwise that's a great description. Where's here? NZ on your email means New Zealand, I'd guess? -- Cynthia Virtue and/or Cynthia du Pre Argent ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
