Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 I won't exactly say that Norse costume experts on other mailing lists seem to be laughing themselves into stitches over this. but... There are certainly some aspects of it that don't look very practical, such as the train. Also, as someone on another list pointed out, generally costume found in one place and time will show some sort of evolutionary relationships to the costume of other, similar places at the same time, before and afterward. But I'm not aware of anything remotely like this anywhere in northern Europe (disclaimer: but then, I'm hardly an expert) To me, it would seem much more plausible that the placement of garment parts reconstructed here is the result of subsidence in the graves from which the originals came, rather than that they were actually worn that way. There is certainly merit in challenging the established applecart of wisdom about how things were done, just to be sure no one is getting too complacent or thinks that we know everything. But some challenges have a lot of plausible reasoning and evidence behind them, and others, well, don't. (I recently ran across someone who claims that French, Italian and Spanish all descended from Modern English, and that Latin never existed as a living language, it was merely scribal shorthand. Definitely one of the more far-out attempts to re-think established wisdom, and apparently without much in the way of evidence either.. http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/ 005394.html#more) OChris Laning [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Davis, California + http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Monday 18 February 2008, Chris Laning wrote: On Feb 12, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Beth and Bob Matney wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 I won't exactly say that Norse costume experts on other mailing lists seem to be laughing themselves into stitches over this. but... You're absolutely right, Chris. I know this because I'm also a member of some of the other lists and have participated in those discussions. :-) I'll add here that a lot of what Larsson has proposed in her reconstruction comes from a recent (2006) find in Pskov, Russia, of large fragments of what appear to have been an undertunic with a gathered neck and an apron dress. The Pskov team is preparing an article on their find which will be presented at NESAT in 2008 and be in NESAT X, but here's a good factual summary in English of the preliminarily released details: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/sarafan/sarafan.htm The abstract for the NESAT paper gives some additional details that I wanted to raise here, for they present additional reasons counting against this proposed reconstruction: Related with this outer item of the costume [i.e., the presumed undertunic] was the largest piece among the silk details found. It was a complete upper part (152 cm long and 25.5 cm wide) of the apron. At equal distances from the centre, fragments of two loops or shoulder-straps were preserved. The loops themselves were found on the pins of two oval fibulae. The silken trimming of the upper part of the apron consisted of several details cut from different kinds of silk. These all were cloths of the Byzantine type. On silken cloth no. 1, a woven pattern has been recognized with a scene of the Sassanian prince Bahram Gur hunting. In Europe, cloths with similar designs are known by finds from Milan, Cologne, and Prague. Within the territory of Russia they have been found at mountain burial grounds of the northern Caucasus. All of them are dated, at the latest, to the 9th Century being imitations of the earlier Sassanian textiles. In Larsson's reconstruction, the part of the apron dress that is ornamented with this precious, antique (the Sassanian silks are dated 9th century, while the burial is dated late 10th century) silk goes *at the small of the back.* I can't imagine any Viking wearing a garment in a fashion that would make it hard to find the most precious ornamentation on the garment. Overall, I agree with Chris's parting shot on this sort of daringly different reconstruction: There is certainly merit in challenging the established applecart of wisdom about how things were done, just to be sure no one is getting too complacent or thinks that we know everything. But some challenges have a lot of plausible reasoning and evidence behind them, and others, well, don't. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
Not my era, but those tortoise brooches are all hollowed, right? Which argues for them being put over some convex body area. Also, I came across this interesting link: http://www3.baylor.edu/~Chris_Marsh/risala.htm In section 82 there are two references to females wearing metal or wooden boxes on, specifically, their breasts. Fran Beth and Bob Matney wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 Beth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
This reconstruction isn't what I would describe as provocative by modern standards! Just goes to show what to what lengths the media will go to to sex things up. Margo ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Tuesday 12 February 2008, Margo Anderson wrote: This reconstruction isn't what I would describe as provocative by modern standards! Just goes to show what to what lengths the media will go to to sex things up. True, it's not provocative by modern standards, but to be fair to the poor reporter consider this: if Viking women normally covered their breasts with at least two layers of clothing, having just a thin linen shift over them might register as sexy (In the same way that, at the height of the Victorian period, an unexpected amount of legshow when the woman was in day dress registered as sexy.) Whether the single-layer-over-the-breasts look was unique to the kind of costume Larsson posits would depend on how common it really was for women other than slaves to wear only a single garment over the breasts. It might also depend on whether Viking women bound or otherwise wore undergarments that supported the breasts (something we really have no data on at present). -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Tuesday 12 February 2008, Beth and Bob Matney wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 Thanks for the image! Interesting. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Feb 12, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: It might also depend on whether Viking women bound or otherwise wore undergarments that supported the breasts (something we really have no data on at present). Indeed. I notice that the reconstruction is worn over a modern bra. It's also interesting that the article says the brooches (called buckles in the article) were worn centrally over the breast (which presumably means right over the nipple--ouch), but the same sentence implies that the brooches were generally found at waist level. Perhaps they assume that all Viking women had very large and/or saggy breasts at death? To those who study the drawings of these grave finds: is it true that the brooches generally show up at waist level rather than farther up the torso? I have to say I don't think I've ever seen anyone in re-enacting circles wear them as high as the collarbone (cited in the article as the location that this new theory is debunking). I also wonder about Larsson's assertion that what was thought to be the front of the garment was actually the back. I know that archeology is complicated and that the passage of time obscures many things and that fabric is often ignored during excavation, making it difficult to determine where things were later on, but still... Very interesting topic! Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Tuesday 12 February 2008, Lavolta Press wrote: Not my era, but those tortoise brooches are all hollowed, right? Which argues for them being put over some convex body area. As someone else pointed out, the pin goes through the center hollow, which cuts against a placement over the nipple. The following picture of one of the brooches from the Pskov find is a good example of this: http://pskovarheolog.ru/imgs/docs/68-149.jpg -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Tuesday 12 February 2008, Melanie Schuessler wrote: On Feb 12, 2008, at 4:28 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: It might also depend on whether Viking women bound or otherwise wore undergarments that supported the breasts (something we really have no data on at present). Indeed. I notice that the reconstruction is worn over a modern bra. The white showing through does indeed look like a modern bra, but if so it's not a particularly supportive one, in light of how low the model's bustline has sagged. It's also interesting that the article says the brooches (called buckles in the article) were worn centrally over the breast (which presumably means right over the nipple--ouch) That seems to be Larsson's theory judging from the reconstruction picture. She seems to think this is a better explanation than the shifting of the brooches as the body decomposed in the grave (typically the reason cited for brooches found at waist level)--but note that the model in the picture has large breasts that have sagged low enough to be close to the waist. On a small breasted woman, or a woman whose breasts were supported, or even on a very long-waisted woman, it wouldn't be possible to position the brooches near the natural waist and have them anywhere close to nipple level. , but the same sentence implies that the brooches were generally found at waist level. Perhaps they assume that all Viking women had very large and/or saggy breasts at death? To those who study the drawings of these grave finds: is it true that the brooches generally show up at waist level rather than farther up the torso? It varies. A friend on another list sent photos of two examples of brooches in situ (some of these are reconstructions of how the skeletons brooches were found): Gotland http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/grave%20plans/HPIM1392.jpg Birka http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z123/Castlegrounds/grave%20plans/taf40fig5grave968.jpg Here's a picture I found of the Adwick-le-Street woman's grave, though this is harder to parse, but it is genuinely in situ: http://www.show.me.uk/site/news/STO201.html Reconstruction of a Viking woman's grave from the Isle of Lewis: http://www.cne-siar.gov.uk/school/tolstaprimary/2004site/vikings/vikingsburials2.htm I have to say I don't think I've ever seen anyone in re-enacting circles wear them as high as the collarbone (cited in the article as the location that this new theory is debunking). Depends on what she means by collarbone and where she's measuring from. Possibly it depends on the strap arrangement as well. On my double-wrapped apron dresses the top of the brooches rides near my collarbones (though out toward the end of my collarbones, near the armpits), because the dress is most secure that way. I also wonder about Larsson's assertion that what was thought to be the front of the garment was actually the back. I don't buy it for the Pskov find, at least. It would be insane to bother to sew lengths of precious red and blue silk to your linen apron dress and then put that part of the dress at the small of your back, where only cowards sneaking up on you would be likely to see it. I know that archeology is complicated and that the passage of time obscures many things and that fabric is often ignored during excavation, making it difficult to determine where things were later on, but still... Very interesting topic! Indeed. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
My first reaction is - that looks chilly! Why would you use all that fabric to keep your bum warm and not your torso? It looks more convincing with the shawl, but as Hanna said, the Valkyrie figure seems to have something apron-like in front. My husband has also commented that there is evidence that ordinary women wore tortoise brooches, not just the idle rich, and a train is not very practical when you're working. Anyone read enough Swedish to tell us if the University press release gives any more information? Jean Beth and Bob Matney wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 Beth At 01:01 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:39:28 + From: Linda Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I came across this news item, and thought it might interest some group members:- Women who lived in the major Viking settlement called Birka in the 9th and 10th centuries dressed in a much more provocative manner than previously believed. ... When the area around Lake Mälaren was Christianized about a century later, women’s dress style became more modest, according to archaeologist Annika Larsson. It's from The Local - Sweden's News in English http://www.thelocal.se/9950/20080211/ What a pity there are no pictures of the reconstruction! Linda Walton, (in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
That is more of a Celtic and Roman style with tubular apron and no straps. -Original Message- I have to say I don't think I've ever seen anyone in re-enacting circles wear them as high as the collarbone (cited in the article as the location that this new theory is debunking). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Tuesday 12 February 2008, Hanna Zickermann wrote: That´s the most beautiful Viking/Rus outfit I´ve seen so far! But when I suggested the look to an SCA friend for court garb, she pointed out the little string that holds the upper edge together quite awquardly, and there would be strain on the pearl string if you remove that little string. However, that Valkyria figure next to the photo with the shawl looks pretty much like that outfit, but appears to have a small apron or so in front. Could it be that there were decorative aprons or bibs that went with this outfit and were not included in the box found in Russia? What do you think? There's certainly evidence that aprons (i.e., of the type that fastened around the waist and covered the front of the body from the waist down) were worn in Finland and other regions around the Baltic. However, it's worth noting that the Pskov find was not trimmed along the open long edge, but along the top (with appliqued-on silk strips that were fairly wide). The Pskov reconstructionists found stitch holes that they identified with where the fastening loops were sewn on, and this matched up with the direction in which the silk appliques ran. If the Pskov garment were assumed to be like the apron dress in Larsson's reconstruction, the silk-decorated area would hardly have shown in the front at all--it would have run across the small of the woman's back. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
Do you mean that the collarbone-location style referred to in the article is more like a peplos? Were these large brooches worn with those? The people I mentioned that I've seen were wearing dresses with straps and the brooches somewhere between the collarbone and the nipple. Thanks, Melanie On Feb 12, 2008, at 5:55 PM, otsisto wrote: That is more of a Celtic and Roman style with tubular apron and no straps. -Original Message- I have to say I don't think I've ever seen anyone in re-enacting circles wear them as high as the collarbone (cited in the article as the location that this new theory is debunking). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
I'm curious -- has Thora Sharptooth weighed in on this on Norsefolk? I'd be interested in her thoughts. Lauren -- Original message -- From: Beth and Bob Matney [EMAIL PROTECTED] There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 Beth At 01:01 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:39:28 + From: Linda Walton I came across this news item, and thought it might interest some group members:- Women who lived in the major Viking settlement called Birka in the 9th and 10th centuries dressed in a much more provocative manner than previously believed. ... When the area around Lake Mälaren was Christianized about a century later, womens dress style became more modest, according to archaeologist Annika Larsson. It's from The Local - Sweden's News in English http://www.thelocal.se/9950/20080211/ What a pity there are no pictures of the reconstruction! Linda Walton, (in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
That´s the most beautiful Viking/Rus outfit I´ve seen so far! But when I suggested the look to an SCA friend for court garb, she pointed out the little string that holds the upper edge together quite awquardly, and there would be strain on the pearl string if you remove that little string. However, that Valkyria figure next to the photo with the shawl looks pretty much like that outfit, but appears to have a small apron or so in front. Could it be that there were decorative aprons or bibs that went with this outfit and were not included in the box found in Russia? What do you think? At 22:28 12.02.2008, you wrote: On Tuesday 12 February 2008, Margo Anderson wrote: This reconstruction isn't what I would describe as provocative by modern standards! Just goes to show what to what lengths the media will go to to sex things up. True, it's not provocative by modern standards, but to be fair to the poor reporter consider this: if Viking women normally covered their breasts with at least two layers of clothing, having just a thin linen shift over them might register as sexy (In the same way that, at the height of the Victorian period, an unexpected amount of legshow when the woman was in day dress registered as sexy.) Whether the single-layer-over-the-breasts look was unique to the kind of costume Larsson posits would depend on how common it really was for women other than slaves to wear only a single garment over the breasts. It might also depend on whether Viking women bound or otherwise wore undergarments that supported the breasts (something we really have no data on at present). -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
I'm not sure what you are saying but if you are saying that the tortoise brooches were worn over the mammary because they are bowl like, this would be incorrect because there is a vertical pin in it. -Original Message- Discoveries Not my era, but those tortoise brooches are all hollowed, right? Which argues for them being put over some convex body area. Also, I came across this interesting link: http://www3.baylor.edu/~Chris_Marsh/risala.htm In section 82 there are two references to females wearing metal or wooden boxes on, specifically, their breasts. Fran Beth and Bob Matney wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 Beth ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
On Tuesday 12 February 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm curious -- has Thora Sharptooth weighed in on this on Norsefolk? I'd be interested in her thoughts. Lauren Not yet--though I expect she will eventually. It's possible she hasn't seen a photo of Larssen's proposed reconstruction yet. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] You affect the world by what you browse.-- Tim Berners-Lee ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries
Thanks for the link. This is a simple in shape, but effective look. I haven't been able to attend the Eastern Nebraska/Western Iowa Renfaire for the last couple of years, but there was a group in Tartar(our Middle Ages era)costume, complete with weaponry, the last time I was there. With the Northern Europe and Germanic ancestries of many Nebraskans and Iowans, I'm surprised not more attendees choose their own ancestral costumes. Cindy Abel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beth and Bob Matney Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 2:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Re: Viking Women's Dress - New Discoveries There has been a bit of discussion about this on the Norsefolk_2 list. Here is an image of her reconstruction: see bottom of http://www.uu.se/press/pm.php?id=48 http://www.newsdesk.se/pressroom/uu/image/view/pm_vikingakvinna1-5825 Beth At 01:01 PM 2/12/2008, you wrote: Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:39:28 + From: Linda Walton [EMAIL PROTECTED] I came across this news item, and thought it might interest some group members:- Women who lived in the major Viking settlement called Birka in the 9th and 10th centuries dressed in a much more provocative manner than previously believed. ... When the area around Lake Mälaren was Christianized about a century later, women's dress style became more modest, according to archaeologist Annika Larsson. It's from The Local - Sweden's News in English http://www.thelocal.se/9950/20080211/ What a pity there are no pictures of the reconstruction! Linda Walton, (in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, U.K.) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
