Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Knickers are short for knickerbockers, from some deep recess of my memory. I know they weren't called knee-breeches during Victorian times (except maybe by old ladies) but I can't verify they were called knickers. My theory is that the ladies' underwear term, knickers, came from the name of the short trousers worn by men. Supposition on my part; my library is miles away and I can't remember anything solid to back up my comments. LynnD On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Julie jtknit...@gmail.com wrote: I thought knickers referred to underwear. Julie Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my Rev War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in Victorian times? Henry Osier ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
In the '80s people called pants that ended just below the knee knickers. Before that, they were peddle pushers. And I think there's at least one other name for them. Knee highs, maybe? It seems every time they come back into fashion, they are called something else. Maybe the term breeches is more accurate. However, that term was used 4 or 500 years before Victorian times, so I'm not really sure. Thanks to the Brits, I do consider knickers undergarments, and I do think the term has been used that way since Victorian times. Isn't Steampunk simply a style, not an accurate reflection of any true time period? As I understand it, it takes characteristics from a span of years, and throws in some extra flare. Since it doesn't really claim to be historically accurate*, call the trousers whatever you want! :) *Even the Steampunk fans argue this out. Some say it's Victorian clothes with technology from another year...some say it's just a literary genre. See this link: http://austinsirkin.tumblr.com/post/20317870381/what-is-steampunk-its-come-to-my-attention This online store calls all the bottoms/pants trousers but they do carry two that end below the knee. They call them...are you ready...KNICKERS! :) http://www.steampunkemporium.com/steam.php 'Bella On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Lynn Downward lynndownw...@gmail.comwrote: Knickers are short for knickerbockers, from some deep recess of my memory. I know they weren't called knee-breeches during Victorian times (except maybe by old ladies) but I can't verify they were called knickers. My theory is that the ladies' underwear term, knickers, came from the name of the short trousers worn by men. Supposition on my part; my library is miles away and I can't remember anything solid to back up my comments. LynnD On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Julie jtknit...@gmail.com wrote: I thought knickers referred to underwear. Julie Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my Rev War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in Victorian times? Henry Osier ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Ah the wonderful vagaries of fashion terms. Here's what I believe the evolution is: 18th and early 19th century: the general term for pants that end at the knee is knee breeches--or just plain breeches (let's not go back to Elizabethan trunk hose, etc. now!) 1809: Washington Irving publishes his satirical take on history and politics titled A History of New York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty, by Diedrich Knickerbocker. The frontispiece sports an image of a patrician-looking elder gentleman wearing knee breeches. (Irving also begins an amusing hoax related to the whereabouts of Mr. Knickerbocker that has the effect of boosting sales of the book.) 1810-1840: the name is picked up by the public to refer to New Yorkers, particularly gentleman of the old school variety. 1840s: the New York Knickerbockers baseball team is formed. They adopt the uniform of a white flannel shirt and blue wool (long!) pants. No knickers yet. mid-19th century: boys wear short pants - not shaped quite like knee breeches, but not as baggy as later knickerbockers either. The OED dates the use of knickerbocker for the baggy variety dates to 1859. And then there's the gentleman's country wear, the knickerbocker suit, of the late 1860s-1870s. Let's also throw in the baggy pants developed by Amelia Bloomer for the women's dress reform movement which were baggy but originally ankle length. They got shorter at the end of the century and were especially popular for women bicyclists, in fact the OED cites knickerbocker ladies as meaning women cyclists. And when do baseball uniforms move to shorter baggy pants that are called knickerbockers...hmmm... 1872: reference to women's under drawers as knickerbockers, followed by 1895 reference to satin knickerbockers. Other references also refer to the younger girls drawers as knickers at about this time. Here's where it gets fuzzy: by WWI the uniform was characterized by what we would term knickerbockers. At about the same time, boys by the early 20th century boys pants were short and baggy. By the 1920s golfers adopted the short baggy look but there's were 4 inches longer than knickerbockers, hence the label plus fours. Knickers were also the staple of baseball and football uniforms. And by 1926 we have a reference to French knickers a British/American term for ladies tap pants or short, elastic waist, baggy open leg drawers. (Think Busby Berkley dancers or 30s film stars underwear.) They made a come-back in the 1960s after 1950s ankle pants shortened to pedal pushers. Knickers were always characterized as baggier and drawn in at the knee. Whew! There you have it--what a fun look at this garment. Oh, but back to your original question: it looks like knickers would not be the correct term for any knee-length garment before the late 1850s. - Hope War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
On 3/20/13 4:05 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote: And when do baseball uniforms move to shorter baggy pants that are called knickerbockers...hmmm... Ah-ha - here's one lead: http://exhibits.baseballhalloffame.org/dressed_to_the_nines/timeline_1868.htm - Hope ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Oh heck, as long as I'm in there, here's the OED entry for breeches: c. Now always in pl. breeches /?br?t??z/ , or a pair of breeches(perh. not so used before 15th c.). /Breeches/ are distinguished from /trousers/ by coming only just below the knee, but dialectally (and humorously) /breeches/ includes /trousers/. [/c/1275 (/c/??a1200) La?amon /Brut javascript:void(0)/ (Calig.) (1978) l. 8996 Heo..gripen heore cniues. of mid here breches. 1382 /Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) javascript:void(0)/ Gen. iii. 7 They soweden to gidre leeves of a fige tree, maden hem brechis.] /a/1500 in T. Wright R. P. Wülcker /Anglo-Saxon Old Eng. Vocab. javascript:void(0)/ (1884) I. 629 /Bracce/, brechys. 1555 W. Waterman tr. J. Boemus /Fardle of Facions javascript:void(0)/ i. iv. 41 Some make them brieches of the heares of their heades. 1560 /Bible (Geneva) javascript:void(0)/ Gen. iii. 7 They sewed figge tree leaues together, and made themselues breeches. 1591 Spenser /Prosopopoia/ in /Complaints javascript:void(0)/ 211 His breeches were made after the new cut. 1661 S. Pepys /Diary javascript:void(0)/ 6 Apr. (1970) II. 66 To put both his legs through one of his Knees of his breeches. 1785 W. Cowper /Task javascript:void(0)/ i. 10 As yet black breeches were not. 17.. /Chestnut Horse javascript:void(0)/, Dreamed of his boots, his spurs, his leather breeches, Of leaping five-barred gates, and crossing ditches. 1858 N. Hawthorne /Fr. Ital. Jrnls. javascript:void(0)/ II. 179 Their trousers being tucked up till they were strictly breeches. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Modernly, you are correct. My grandmother was fond of asking if I'd gotten my knickers in a twist if I was angry about something. This often happened if I was being sent to my room for beating up a younger sibling. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Julie jtknit...@gmail.com wrote: I thought knickers referred to underwear. Julie Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my RevWar days. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Sybella mae...@gmail.com wrote: In the '80s people called pants that ended just below the knee knickers. Assuming you mean 1980s: I recall Capri pants for women,not knickers. Before that, they were peddle pushers. And I think there's at least one other name for them. Knee highs, maybe? It seems every time they come back into fashion, they are called something else. Probably, pedal-pushers as that what my mom called the things they went bicycling in in the 1950s. Also, Knickers strikes me as something an early 20th c golfer or upperclass sport hunter (male) might wear. --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
Certainly breeches is the correct term for the garments worn as part of British court dress during the Victorian era. I'm not sure what the lower garment of a Norfolk suit is called, though. A random advertisement from 1905 refers to hunting breeches, but that's all a quick search turned up. -- Chris Bertani www.goblinrevolution.org/costumes On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:48 AM, cc2010m...@cs.com wrote: Hello, Last Sunday, a friend came to a Steampunk St. Patty's Day party sporting knickers. I am in the habit of calling them knee-breeches from my Rev War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in Victorian times? Henry Osier ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Terms for men's pants
The only contribution I can make is that in Arthur Ransome's Swallows and Amazons books, written and set in the 1930s, a small boy (Roger) is described as wearing knickerbockers. Emily On 3/20/2013 3:05 PM, Hope Greenberg wrote: Ah the wonderful vagaries of fashion terms. Here's what I believe the evolution is: 18th and early 19th century: the general term for pants that end at the knee is knee breeches--or just plain breeches (let's not go back to Elizabethan trunk hose, etc. now!) 1809: Washington Irving publishes his satirical take on history and politics titled A History of New York from the Beginning of the World to the End of the Dutch Dynasty, by Diedrich Knickerbocker. The frontispiece sports an image of a patrician-looking elder gentleman wearing knee breeches. (Irving also begins an amusing hoax related to the whereabouts of Mr. Knickerbocker that has the effect of boosting sales of the book.) 1810-1840: the name is picked up by the public to refer to New Yorkers, particularly gentleman of the old school variety. 1840s: the New York Knickerbockers baseball team is formed. They adopt the uniform of a white flannel shirt and blue wool (long!) pants. No knickers yet. mid-19th century: boys wear short pants - not shaped quite like knee breeches, but not as baggy as later knickerbockers either. The OED dates the use of knickerbocker for the baggy variety dates to 1859. And then there's the gentleman's country wear, the knickerbocker suit, of the late 1860s-1870s. Let's also throw in the baggy pants developed by Amelia Bloomer for the women's dress reform movement which were baggy but originally ankle length. They got shorter at the end of the century and were especially popular for women bicyclists, in fact the OED cites knickerbocker ladies as meaning women cyclists. And when do baseball uniforms move to shorter baggy pants that are called knickerbockers...hmmm... 1872: reference to women's under drawers as knickerbockers, followed by 1895 reference to satin knickerbockers. Other references also refer to the younger girls drawers as knickers at about this time. Here's where it gets fuzzy: by WWI the uniform was characterized by what we would term knickerbockers. At about the same time, boys by the early 20th century boys pants were short and baggy. By the 1920s golfers adopted the short baggy look but there's were 4 inches longer than knickerbockers, hence the label plus fours. Knickers were also the staple of baseball and football uniforms. And by 1926 we have a reference to French knickers a British/American term for ladies tap pants or short, elastic waist, baggy open leg drawers. (Think Busby Berkley dancers or 30s film stars underwear.) They made a come-back in the 1960s after 1950s ankle pants shortened to pedal pushers. Knickers were always characterized as baggier and drawn in at the knee. Whew! There you have it--what a fun look at this garment. Oh, but back to your original question: it looks like knickers would not be the correct term for any knee-length garment before the late 1850s. - Hope War days. Is knickers the correct term for men's knee breeches in ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
