[Haskell] Journal of Functional Programming - Call for PhD Abstracts

2015-04-01 Thread Graham Hutton


CALL FOR PHD ABSTRACTS

Journal of Functional Programming

Deadline: 30th April 2015

http://tinyurl.com/jfp-phd-abstracts



PREAMBLE:

Many students complete PhDs in functional programming each
year, but there is currently no common location in which to
promote and advertise the resulting work.  The Journal of
Functional Programming would like to change that!

As a service to the community, JFP recently launched a new
feature, in the form of a regular publication of abstracts
from PhD dissertations that were completed during the previous
year.  The abstracts are made freely available on the JFP
website, i.e. not behind any paywall, and do not require any
transfer for copyright, merely a license from the author.

Please submit dissertation abstracts according to the
instructions below.  A dissertation is eligible if parts
of it have or could have appeared in JFP, that is, if it
is in the general area of functional programming.  JFP
will not have these abstracts reviewed.  We welcome
submissions from both the PhD student and PhD advisor/
supervisor although we encourage them to coordinate.



SUBMISSION:

Please submit the following information to Graham Hutton
graham.hut...@nottingham.ac.uk by 30th April 2015.

o Dissertation title: (including any subtitle)

o Student: (full name)

o Awarding institution: (full name and country)

o Date of PhD award: (month and year; depending on the
  institution, this may be the date of the viva, corrections
  being approved, graduation ceremony, or otherwise)

o Advisor/supervisor: (full names)

o Dissertation URL: (please provide a permanently accessible
  link to the dissertation if you have one, such as to an
  institutional repository or other public archive; links
  to personal web pages should be considered a last resort)

o Dissertation abstract: (plain text, maximum 1000 words;
  you may use \emph{...} for emphasis, but we prefer no
  other markup or formatting in the abstract, but do get
  in touch if this causes significant problems)

Please do not submit a copy of the dissertation itself, as
this is not required.  JFP reserves the right to decline
to publish abstracts that are not deemed appropriate.



PHD ABSTRACT EDITOR:

Graham Hutton
School of Computer Science
University of Nottingham
Nottingham NG8 1BB
United Kingdom







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[Haskell] ANNOUNCE: Arion

2015-04-01 Thread Karun Ramakrishnan
Three of us have been working on Arion for a week or two now. It's a watcher 
and runner for Hspec tests. It associates source files with test files, watches 
the file system, and when a file changes it runs the corresponding test files 
instead of running all the test files, making the process of red-green-refactor 
faster.
We are happy to announce that we have a nice and stable version (0.1.0.8). 
Thanks to the folks at hspec.github.io for listing our project on their website.
To know more, please visit - https://github.com/karun012/arion
Feedback/Feature Requests/Everything else welcome.  
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Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Jeremy
Why do the 7.10 libraries take up so much more space than 7.8? For example,
using the same build options and strip --strip-unneeded, 7.8 leaves me with

15M libHSCabal-1.18.1.5.a
17M HSCabal-1.18.1.5.o

whereas 7.10 balloons to

23M HSCabal-1.22.2.0-HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY.o
53M libHSCabal-1.22.2.0-HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY.a



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[Haskell] DSLDI: 3rd Workshop on Domain-Specific Language Design and Implementation (EXTENDED DEADLINE)

2015-04-01 Thread Tijs van der Storm
*
SECOND CALL FOR TALK PROPOSALS

DSLDI 2015

Third Workshop on
Domain-Specific Language Design and Implementation

July 7, 2015
Prague, Czech Republic
Co-located with ECOOP

http://2015.ecoop.org/track/dsldi-2015-papers
*

EXTENDED Deadline for talk proposals: 9th of April, 2015

If designed and implemented well, domain-specific languages (DSLs) combine the 
best features of general-purpose programming languages (e.g., performance) with 
high productivity (e.g., ease of programming).

*** Workshop Goal ***

The goal of the DSLDI workshop is to bring together researchers and 
practitioners interested in sharing ideas on how DSLs should be designed, 
implemented, supported by tools, and applied in realistic application contexts. 
We are both interested in discovering how already known domains such as graph 
processing or machine learning can be best supported by DSLs, but also in 
exploring new domains that could be targeted by DSLs. More generally, we are 
interested in building a community that can drive forward the development of 
modern DSLs.

*** Workshop Format ***

DSLDI is a single-day workshop and will consist of a series of short talks 
whose main goal is to trigger exchange of opinion and discussions. The talks 
should be on the topics within DSLDI's area of interest, which include but are 
not limited to the following ones:

* DSL implementation techniques, including compiler-level and runtime-level 
solutions
* utilization of domain knowledge for driving optimizations of DSL 
implementations
* utilizing DSLs for managing parallelism and hardware heterogeneity
* DSL performance and scalability studies
* DSL tools, such as DSL editors and editor plugins, debuggers, refactoring 
tools, etc.
* applications of DSLs to existing as well as emerging domains, for
  example graph processing, image processing, machine learning, analytics, 
robotics, etc.
* practitioners reports, for example descriptions of DSL deployment i  a 
real-life production setting

*** Call for Submissions ***

We solicit talk proposals in the form of short abstracts (max. 2 pages). A good 
talk proposal describes an interesting position, demonstration, or early 
achievement. The submissions will be reviewed on relevance and clarity, and 
used to plan the mostly interactive sessions of the workshop day. Publication 
of accepted abstracts and slides on the website is voluntary.

* _EXTENDED_ Deadline for talk proposals: April 9th, 2015
* Notification: May 8th, 2015
* Workshop: July 7th, 2015
* Submission website: https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=dsldi2015

*** Workshop Organization ***

Organizers

* Tijs van der Storm (st...@cwi.nl), CWI, The Netherlands
* Sebastian Erdweg (erd...@informatik.tu-darmstadt.de), TU Darmstadt, Germany

Follow us on Twitter at https://twitter.com/wsdsldi

Program committee

* Emilie Balland
* Martin Bravenboer (LogicBlox)
* Hassan Chafi (Oracle Labs)
* William Cook (UT Austin)
* Shriram Krishnamurthi (Brown University)
* Heather Miller (EPFL)
* Bruno Oliveira (University of Hong Kong)
* Cyrus Omar (CMU)
* Richard Paige (University of York)
* Tony Sloane (Macquarie University)
* Emma Söderberg (Google)
* Emma Tosch (University of Massachusetts, Amherst)
* Jurgen Vinju (CWI)

--
Researcher Centrum Wiskunde  Informatica (CWI)
Master of Software Engineering Universiteit van Amsterdam (UvA)
Dr. Tijs van der Storm @ Centrum Wiskunde  Informatica (CWI)
Office: L225| Phone: +31 (0)20 5924164 | Address: Science Park 123
P.O. Box 94079  | Postal code: 1090 GB | Amsterdam, The Netherlands

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Increased memory usage with GHC 7.10.1

2015-04-01 Thread Jan Stolarek
Forall hi,

I just uprgaded both of my machines to use GHC 7.10.1. I keep sandboxed 
installations of GHC and 
this means I had to rebuild Agda and Idris because the binaries built with GHC 
7.8.4 were stored 
inside deactivated 7.8.4 sandbox. Sadly, I had problems building both Agda and 
Idris due to GHC 
taking up all of available memory.

With Idris the problematic module was Idris.ElabTerm (~2900LOC). The 
interesting part of the story 
is that when I do a clean build of Idris GHC consumes all of memory when 
compiling that module 
and I have to kill the build. But when I restart the build after killing GHC 
the module is 
compiled using a reasonable amount of memory and within reasonable time.

With Agda the problematic module is Agda.TypeChecking.Serialise (~2000LOC). The 
trick with killing 
the build and restarting it didn't work in this case. I had to compile Agda 
with GHC 7.8.4 (which 
works without problems though the mentioned module still requires a lot of 
memory) and alter my 
setup so that Agda binary is not stored inside GHC sandbox.

I wonder if any of you came across similar issues with GHC 7.10.1? Do we have 
any performance data 
that allows to compare memory usage and performance of GHC 7.10.1 with previous 
stable releases?

All of the above happened on 64bit Debian Wheezy with 2GB of RAM.

Janek

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Lodz University of Technology

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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Jeremy
Roman Cheplyaka-2 wrote
 I'm not denying (or confirming) your claim, but it would look more
 legitimate if you compared the same version of Cabal compiled with
 different versions of GHC.
 
 At least some of this bloat could be because Cabal simply gained more
 code.

Tricky to test that because of dependencies and global package db.

I haven't measured the amount of code in Cabal, but I doubt it's increased
that much, and there has been a big jump in the installed size of every
library.



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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Roman Cheplyaka
On 01/04/15 12:30, Jeremy wrote:
 Why do the 7.10 libraries take up so much more space than 7.8? For example,
 using the same build options and strip --strip-unneeded, 7.8 leaves me with
 
 15M libHSCabal-1.18.1.5.a
 17M HSCabal-1.18.1.5.o
 
 whereas 7.10 balloons to
 
 23M HSCabal-1.22.2.0-HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY.o
 53M libHSCabal-1.22.2.0-HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY.a

I'm not denying (or confirming) your claim, but it would look more
legitimate if you compared the same version of Cabal compiled with
different versions of GHC.

At least some of this bloat could be because Cabal simply gained more code.

Roman
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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Karel Gardas


7.10.1 should IIRC support some kind of DWARF debugging information and 
IIRC it was mentioned and decided on ghc devel that the libraries will 
ship with some DWARF to easy debugging


-- but takes me lightly on it and verify if this is the case since I may 
be completely off and this may apply to GHC HEAD and not to 7.10.x


Karel

On 04/ 1/15 11:30 AM, Jeremy wrote:

Why do the 7.10 libraries take up so much more space than 7.8? For example,
using the same build options and strip --strip-unneeded, 7.8 leaves me with

15M libHSCabal-1.18.1.5.a
17M HSCabal-1.18.1.5.o

whereas 7.10 balloons to

23M HSCabal-1.22.2.0-HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY.o
53M libHSCabal-1.22.2.0-HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY.a



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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Jeremy
It's not just binaries, even hi files have ballooned. (I should note that
(stripped) executables appear to be unaffected.)



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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Jeremy
Karel Gardas wrote
 7.10.1 should IIRC support some kind of DWARF debugging information and 
 IIRC it was mentioned and decided on ghc devel that the libraries will 
 ship with some DWARF to easy debugging
 
 -- but takes me lightly on it and verify if this is the case since I may 
 be completely off and this may apply to GHC HEAD and not to 7.10.x

Stripped all debugging, didn't help.



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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Jeremy
Roman Cheplyaka-2 wrote
 I'm not denying (or confirming) your claim, but it would look more
 legitimate if you compared the same version of Cabal compiled with
 different versions of GHC.
 
 At least some of this bloat could be because Cabal simply gained more
 code.

I was going to prove you wrong by identifying packages which have barely
changed for 7.10 ... and found that those packages were a similar size to
their 7.8 versions.

However, the size increase in other packages is huge, and simply gained
more code doesn't seem like an adequate explanation, with some package more
than doubling.

Here are the full results:

7.8:

34M Cabal-1.18.1.5
3.8Marray-0.5.0.0
50M base-4.7.0.2
52M bin
368Kbin-package-db-0.0.0.0
2.7Mbinary-0.7.1.0
5.4Mbytestring-0.10.4.0
9.4Mcontainers-0.5.5.1
196Kdeepseq-1.3.0.2
608Kdirectory-1.2.1.0
740Kfilepath-1.3.0.2
105Mghc-7.8.4
2.7Mghc-prim-0.3.1.0
8.7Mhaskeline-0.7.1.2
3.4Mhoopl-3.10.0.1
1020K   hpc-0.6.0.1
556Kinteger-gmp-0.5.1.0
680Kpretty-1.1.1.1
684Kprocess-1.2.0.0
1.6Mrts-1.0
13M template-haskell-2.9.0.0
1.4Mterminfo-0.4.0.0
6.1Mtime-1.4.2
4.4Mtransformers-0.3.0.0
5.2Munix-2.7.0.1

7.10:

83M Cabal_HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY
3.7Marray_FaHmcBFfuRM8kmZLEY8D5S
52M base_I5BErHzyOm07EBNpKBEeUv
56M bin
2.9Mbinar_EKE3c9Lmxb3DQpU0fPtru6
832Kbinpa_JNoexmBMuO8C771QaIy3YN
5.7Mbytes_6vj5EoliHgNHISHCVCb069
11M conta_47ajk3tbda43DFWyeF3oHQ
432Kdeeps_FpR4obOZALU1lutWnrBldi
912Kdirec_3TcTyYedch32o1zTH2MR00
796Kfilep_5HhyRonfEZoDO205Wm9E4h
113Mghc_EMlWrQ42XY0BNVbSrKixqY
2.9Mghcpr_8TmvWUcS1U1IKHT0levwg3
8.9Mhaske_IlDhIe25uAn0WJY379Nu1M
3.4Mhoopl_JxODiSRz1e84NbH6nnZuUk
1.1Mhpc_CmUUQl5bURfBueJrdYfNs3
1.3Minteg_2aU3IZNMF9a7mQ0OzsZ0dS
1.8Mprett_7jIfj8VCGFf1WS0tIQ1XSZ
764Kproce_0hwN3CTKynhHQqQkChnSdH
1.7Mrts
19M templ_BVMCZyLwIlfGfcqqzyUAI8
1.4Mtermi_7qZwBlx3clR8sTBilJl253
6.2Mtime_Hh2clZW6in4HpYHx5bLtb7
7.3Mtrans_ALYlebOVzVI4kxbFX5SGhm
5.4Munix_G4Yo1pNtYrk8nCq1cx8P9d




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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Carter Schonwald
How much of this might be attributable to longer linker symbol names? Ghc
7.10 object  code does have larger symbols!  Is there a way to easily
tabulate that?
On Apr 1, 2015 9:40 AM, Jeremy volderm...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Roman Cheplyaka-2 wrote
  I'm not denying (or confirming) your claim, but it would look more
  legitimate if you compared the same version of Cabal compiled with
  different versions of GHC.
 
  At least some of this bloat could be because Cabal simply gained more
  code.

 I was going to prove you wrong by identifying packages which have barely
 changed for 7.10 ... and found that those packages were a similar size to
 their 7.8 versions.

 However, the size increase in other packages is huge, and simply gained
 more code doesn't seem like an adequate explanation, with some package
 more
 than doubling.

 Here are the full results:

 7.8:

 34M Cabal-1.18.1.5
 3.8Marray-0.5.0.0
 50M base-4.7.0.2
 52M bin
 368Kbin-package-db-0.0.0.0
 2.7Mbinary-0.7.1.0
 5.4Mbytestring-0.10.4.0
 9.4Mcontainers-0.5.5.1
 196Kdeepseq-1.3.0.2
 608Kdirectory-1.2.1.0
 740Kfilepath-1.3.0.2
 105Mghc-7.8.4
 2.7Mghc-prim-0.3.1.0
 8.7Mhaskeline-0.7.1.2
 3.4Mhoopl-3.10.0.1
 1020K   hpc-0.6.0.1
 556Kinteger-gmp-0.5.1.0
 680Kpretty-1.1.1.1
 684Kprocess-1.2.0.0
 1.6Mrts-1.0
 13M template-haskell-2.9.0.0
 1.4Mterminfo-0.4.0.0
 6.1Mtime-1.4.2
 4.4Mtransformers-0.3.0.0
 5.2Munix-2.7.0.1

 7.10:

 83M Cabal_HWT8QvVfJLn2ubvobpycJY
 3.7Marray_FaHmcBFfuRM8kmZLEY8D5S
 52M base_I5BErHzyOm07EBNpKBEeUv
 56M bin
 2.9Mbinar_EKE3c9Lmxb3DQpU0fPtru6
 832Kbinpa_JNoexmBMuO8C771QaIy3YN
 5.7Mbytes_6vj5EoliHgNHISHCVCb069
 11M conta_47ajk3tbda43DFWyeF3oHQ
 432Kdeeps_FpR4obOZALU1lutWnrBldi
 912Kdirec_3TcTyYedch32o1zTH2MR00
 796Kfilep_5HhyRonfEZoDO205Wm9E4h
 113Mghc_EMlWrQ42XY0BNVbSrKixqY
 2.9Mghcpr_8TmvWUcS1U1IKHT0levwg3
 8.9Mhaske_IlDhIe25uAn0WJY379Nu1M
 3.4Mhoopl_JxODiSRz1e84NbH6nnZuUk
 1.1Mhpc_CmUUQl5bURfBueJrdYfNs3
 1.3Minteg_2aU3IZNMF9a7mQ0OzsZ0dS
 1.8Mprett_7jIfj8VCGFf1WS0tIQ1XSZ
 764Kproce_0hwN3CTKynhHQqQkChnSdH
 1.7Mrts
 19M templ_BVMCZyLwIlfGfcqqzyUAI8
 1.4Mtermi_7qZwBlx3clR8sTBilJl253
 6.2Mtime_Hh2clZW6in4HpYHx5bLtb7
 7.3Mtrans_ALYlebOVzVI4kxbFX5SGhm
 5.4Munix_G4Yo1pNtYrk8nCq1cx8P9d




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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Jeremy
Carter Schonwald wrote
 How much of this might be attributable to longer linker symbol names? Ghc
 7.10 object  code does have larger symbols!  Is there a way to easily
 tabulate that?

That would explain why the hi files have also increased many-fold. Is there
any way to avoid the larger symbols?



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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Daniel Trstenjak

On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 02:30:49AM -0700, Jeremy wrote:
 Why do the 7.10 libraries take up so much more space than 7.8? For example,
 using the same build options and strip --strip-unneeded, 7.8 leaves me with

That would be some kind of harsh april 1st joke, if everything compiled
at that day gets a bloated data section by putting lots april strings
into it. ;)


Greetings,
Daniel
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[Haskell] Haskell Weekly News

2015-04-01 Thread Kim-Ee Yeoh
*Top picks:*

   - Bot attack on Trac
   https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/ghc-devs/2015-March/008557.html
   pummels GHC HQ productivity! Do you know a thing or two about hardening web
   apps? Can you help?

   - A month ago
   http://haskell.1045720.n5.nabble.com/Haskell-Weekly-News-td5766529.html
   you read about the absence of a correct operational spec for Core.
Christiaan
   Baaij http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10121#comment:7 proffers
   rewriting rules for something very much like Core from his 2014 thesis on
   Digital Circuits in CλaSH, a tool designed for Computer Architecture for
   Embedded Systems (CAES). The consensus is that they probably also work for
   GHC Core.

   - Neil Mitchell reports Unable to load package Win32-2.3.1.0
   https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10165. The problem?
   SetWindowLongPtrW exists only on 64-bit. The haskell win32 shim wasn't
   switching to SetWindowLongW on 32-bit. Darren Grant steps up to offer a
   fix, which Austin Seipp promptly checks in.

   - Ki Yung Ahn
   
http://haskell.1045720.n5.nabble.com/Do-we-have-idiom-for-lifting-a-state-monad-into-pair-of-states-td5767673.html
   asks for a wrapper that lifts actions of (State s1 a) to (State (s1,s2)
   a).  The answer? A function called zoom in lens libraries.

   - Chris Done
   
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/commercialhaskell/lRTDiTLIKi0/Kw0UGwa4c0sJ
   has started the ball rolling on GPG-based package signing. So far, Michael
   Snoyman and Neil Mitchell have had their keys signed by Chris. He invites
   others to join the party.

   - Levant Erkok https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10215 joins Lennart
   Augustsson https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9238 in hitting a
   bug with signed zeros http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero. The
   function isNegativeZero breaks under optimizations.

   - James Stevenson
   
https://blog.safaribooksonline.com/2015/03/30/high-performance-log-parsing-in-haskell-part-one/
   over at Safari Books Online reveals how they use Haskell to parse web logs
   more efficiently than Python. The top comment
   https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9294036 at Hacker News observes
   the absence of a proper benchmark pitting Python vs Haskell. James responds
   that they did an informal comparison that showed the number of lines
   parsed/second [with Python] was far smaller than the attoparsec-based
   parser.

   Elsewhere, Luke Randall
   
http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/30xugp/highperformance_log_parsing_in_haskell_part_one/
   submits the link on reddit and thinks it's a very gentle intro to parsing
   using attoparsec.

   - Ian Ross
   http://www.skybluetrades.net/blog/posts/2015/03/30/c2hs-snowmelt.html
   announces a new C2HS release christened Snowmelt. Originally authored by
   Manuel Chakravarty, C2HS eases the pain of manually creating FFI shims for
   C libraries. The latest release, thanks to work contributed by Philipp
   Balzarek, achieves better cross-language alignment of C enum and Haskell
   Enum types, among other improvements. Reddit discussion here.


   
http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/30u8pk/new_c2hs_release_0251_snowmelt/
   - Michael Snoyman
   https://www.fpcomplete.com/blog/2015/03/announce-ide-backend announces
   FPComplete's open sourcing of their IDE backend, comprising a wrapper
   around the GHC API.

   - Jon Sterling at PivotCloud
   https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9539#comment:2 hits an STM
   TQueue bug initially reported by John Lato seven months ago. A sufficiently
   fast writer can cause the reader to never get scheduled, which leads to
   live-lock in Jon's production code. The fix looks to be as simple as
   lazifying a case into a let in readTQueue. Curiously, the code uses
let in Simon
   Marlow's book on Haskell concurrency
   http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/123000929/ch10.html#CO37-2
   but not in the STM package you have on your machine.


*Tweets of the week:*

   - Michael Neale
   https://twitter.com/michaelneale/status/567532684595851264: Haskell
   Quickcheck enters a bar, asks for 1 beer, 42 beers, -Inifinity beers,
   shaves bartenders beard, sets off a tactical nuke.

   - Dierk König https://twitter.com/mittie/status/582803534950862848:
   #Haskell is the gold standard for programming languages and #Frege makes it
   available on the #JVM


-- Kim-Ee
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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Edward Z. Yang
Yes, this does seem like a potential culprit, although
we did do some measurements and I didn't think it was too bad.
Maybe we were wrong!

Edward

Excerpts from Jeremy's message of 2015-04-01 07:26:55 -0700:
 Carter Schonwald wrote
  How much of this might be attributable to longer linker symbol names? Ghc
  7.10 object  code does have larger symbols!  Is there a way to easily
  tabulate that?
 
 That would explain why the hi files have also increased many-fold. Is there
 any way to avoid the larger symbols?
 
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Re: Binary bloat in 7.10

2015-04-01 Thread Carter Schonwald
Mind you I'm just trying to come up with theories we can test, I'm not
assigning blame.  :)

I'm not sure how to do the apples to apples comparison, but it sounds like
some sleuthing Is In order.

I dont have a 7.10 setup yet, but if someone can put a tarballed dist build
folder for a 7.10 and the same for 7.8 for some lib that blows up,I'm happy
to try to dig i n.  Or I'll get things setup later this week to do the full
comparison locally.
On Apr 1, 2015 11:12 AM, Edward Z. Yang ezy...@mit.edu wrote:

 Yes, this does seem like a potential culprit, although
 we did do some measurements and I didn't think it was too bad.
 Maybe we were wrong!

 Edward

 Excerpts from Jeremy's message of 2015-04-01 07:26:55 -0700:
  Carter Schonwald wrote
   How much of this might be attributable to longer linker symbol names?
 Ghc
   7.10 object  code does have larger symbols!  Is there a way to easily
   tabulate that?
 
  That would explain why the hi files have also increased many-fold. Is
 there
  any way to avoid the larger symbols?
 
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