Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[John A. De Goes]

It's the early adopters who develop the first libraries that pull in  
ever wider audiences. Yes, the early adopters are drawn by the syntax  
of the language, but commercial adoption doesn't come until it's  
economically competitive to do so. And that doesn't happen until the  
library market is booming and/or they can seamlessly reuse existing  
assets (that's what the JVM languages discovered: if you allow people  
to use what they already have, in a seamless fashion, incrementally  
building new stuff using the new language, then you can dramatically  
shorten the time between early adoption and mass adoption).


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 28, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Jason Dusek wrote:


2009/09/28 John A. De Goes :

Libraries are _everything_...


 Not exactly. Python would never have gotten a foothold over
 Perl, nor Java over C, if cleaner language semantics weren't
 enough for some shops or certain applications.

--
Jason Dusek


___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Tony Morris]

John A. De Goes wrote:
>   write them yourself (at a cost of several to dozens of man years),
Is that right?

-- 
Tony Morris
http://tmorris.net/


___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[John A. De Goes]

You misunderstood my point. The browser, BigTable clone, and peer-to- 
peer networking libraries are starting points for applications -- ones  
that I've actually needed at various points in my career. You can grab  
them and start developing with them in a few minutes. If you want  
these components (or 100 others) in Haskell, you're going to have to  
write them yourself (at a cost of several to dozens of man years), or  
at least write sucky imperative wrappers around existing C libraries,  
compile those libraries, develop a cross-platform build process, be  
prepared to fix bugs in multiple languages, etc.


Hackage is great, except when it's not, which is most of the time. No  
one's bit off the really big projects. In fact, they get voted down on  
the Reddit Haskell proposals, because somehow really practical  
software like an AMQP client isn't "cool" enough.


Haskell's great for small applications that don't need specialized  
libraries (and apparently, for small segments of the financial  
industry). For other applications, it usually cannot compete  
economically with other, vastly technically inferior languages like  
Java.


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 28, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Curt Sampson wrote:


Ok, my last post on this for real this time.

On 2009-09-28 08:13 -0600 (Mon), John A. De Goes wrote:


Let me ask you this question: how long would it take you to get an
HTML/CSS, W3 compliant browser in Haskell?


A long time. On the other hand, by grabbing a copy of Mozilla, I'll  
have

one far faster than you'll have yours in Java, mine will work a lot
better, run more quickly, and work better with most sites.

While I advocate using Haskell, I don't advocate being silly.

(Incidently, I have direct experience with an almost exactly parallel
situation. I replaced a system that was thousands of lines of
difficult-to-maintain Java code with a few hundred lines of Haskell  
that

feed Microsoft Excel. The user is very pleased that he can now can do
far more extensive tweaking of the UI himself, including major  
features

he never had at all before, such as real-time graphing of the data.)


Or how about a peer-to-peer networking system with seamless scaling
and automatic failover?


Can you give me an example of a real-life system using this you've set
up in "a few minutes"? My experience building systems with similar
things (the very mature and proven MogileFS suite of tools) has been
that the libraries were nice, but did not solve the majority, or  
even a

large minority, of the problem.


Libraries are _everything_. In many cases, they can increase your
effective budget by 10x or even 100x.


Or the other way around, as I've seen by ripping out thousands of  
lines

of Hibernate code, and all of the work done to adapt a system to that
model, and replace it with a few hundred lines of SQL and JDBC calls.
That library has probably wasted more man-years than anything else  
I've

seen in the Java world.

cjs
--
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
  Functional programming in all senses of the word:
  http://www.starling-software.com


___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Colin Paul Adams]

> "Michael" == Michael Snoyman  writes:

Michael> not be written in pure Haskell, but then again I'm not
Michael> sure if there are any fully W3 compliant browsers *not*
Michael> written in C++.

I'm not sure if there are any fully W3 compliant browsers.
How could there be? It would mean consistent W3C recommendations.
-- 
Colin Adams
Preston Lancashire
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Michael Snoyman]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 4:13 PM, John A. De Goes  wrote:

>
> If you have counterexamples, then perhaps you can name them. I'm looking
> for Java shops with 5+ developers and code bases of > 100k converting over
> to Haskell. I don't know _any such shop_ that has switched to Haskell, and I
> doubt any exist, but I'd be delighted to learn I'm wrong.
>
> Let me ask you this question: how long would it take you to get an
> HTML/CSS, W3 compliant browser in Haskell? Or how about a peer-to-peer
> networking system with seamless scaling and automatic failover? How about a
> scalable BigTable implementation? In Java, the answer to these questions --
> and just about any others you can think of -- is "a few minutes", because
> the code has already been written.
>
>
Well, as far as browser goes, this is a start:
http://github.com/snoyberg/hack-handler-webkit. It may not be written in
pure Haskell, but then again I'm not sure if there are any fully W3
compliant browsers *not* written in C++.

Michael
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[wren ng thornton]

Curt Sampson wrote:

I've been hearing that having lots of libraries is an insurmountable
advantage, and you're doomed if you give them up, since long before I
took up Haskell. It's mostly myth promulgated by people driven by fear.
I'm sure it's the case in some shops that they have lots of people who
can glue libraries together but can't program, and they somehow manage
to produce applications this way, but even that I suspect is not so
frequent a situation as you'd think.


The real insurmountable advantage is not in the quantity (nor quality) 
of the libraries, it is in the *particular* libraries. Shops which are 
only using libraries for basic data structures and for glue work are 
able (and not infrequently willing) to switch to another language 
provided it has a library ecosphere ---which Haskell with Cabal/Hackage 
most certainly does.


The glue workers are not the ones most unwilling to switch. The real 
demographic that's unwilling to switch are those who are using a 
particular high-performance library. The reason they won't switch has 
nothing to do with the language, and everything to do with the countless 
man-years invested in that specific library. To pick some examples 
familiar to me: the Joshua SMT toolkit[0], the MALT parser[1], NLTK[2], 
GMTK[3], etc. Not all of these are Java, some are Python, some are Perl, 
and some are C++; but bridgework is annoying and most people stick to 
the original language.


These libraries keep client developers near because they are not 
replaceable. Data structures, network stacks, XML parsing,... everyone 
has these. But the high-performance state-of-the-art libraries tend to 
be written once and tweaked ever after. The conversion of the Moses 
translator (Python) into the original version of the Joshua translator 
(Java) was a non-trivial undertaking and it earned a few publications 
along the way ---just for converting it to a different yet similar 
language! And, of course, a number of man-years and publications have 
been invested in it since then.



[0] http://joshua.sourceforge.net/
[1] http://maltparser.org/
[2] http://www.nltk.org/
[3] http://ssli.ee.washington.edu/~bilmes/gmtk/

--
Live well,
~wren
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Tom Davies]

On 29/09/2009, at 1:59 AM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote:


That's a really shame. Any idea why?

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, John A. De Goes   
wrote:


CAL is interesting, but unfortunately dead, and has no community.


I think Haskell users would miss too many of the post 98 extensions --  
overlapping instances, multi parameter type classes  and many other  
things.


I've had a lot of enjoyment using CAL for hobby projects and learning  
about fp, while still being able leverage the Java ecosystem I am so  
familiar with (I'm in the 'libraries matter' camp, although I agree  
with Curt on the uncertain benefits of Hibernate). I believe that it's  
high enough quality to use in production as part of a Java based  
product, but, so far, I just don't have enough free time to do  
anything substantial.


I hope one day to use CAL to teach myself a bit more about types  
without getting lost in the (assumed) complexity of GHC. For instance  
I'd like to replace the CAL type system with HMF.


Note that while it is 'dead', it isn't broken or bit-rotted --  
everything still works, including the Eclipse plugin.


Tom



___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[John A. De Goes]

I think they made a mistake choosing a syntax so close to Haskell:

1. It's close enough to Haskell to attract Haskellers;
2. It's far enough away from Haskell to push Haskellers away;
	3. It's not the language one would design if one were prioritizing  
easy interop with Java in a modern lazy, functional language.


If CAL were 100% Haskell 98 + extensions, it would be a success  
(Haskell + all Java libraries, trivial cross-platform library  
development, Haskell on Android & AppEngine, etc.). If it were nothing  
like Haskell, but had the features of Haskell plus strong, seamless,  
and easy Java interop, then it would be a success. Having neither, I'm  
not surprised it has no community and development has ceased.


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 28, 2009, at 9:59 AM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote:


That's a really shame. Any idea why?

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, John A. De Goes   
wrote:


CAL is interesting, but unfortunately dead, and has no community.

Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 27, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote:

That's not really true. Just use CAL from the Open Quark  
framework... It's almost Haskell 98, with some extras, and compiles  
to fast JVM code.


http://openquark.org/Open_Quark/Welcome.html

They even seem to do all kinds of advanced optimizations - like  
converting tail calls to loops - to get good Java performance.


And they have a better record system, a graphical environment to  
learn it, etc.


So I think CAL should be in the list, and since it's basically  
Haskell...


On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 6:36 PM, John A. De Goes   
wrote:


I'm not sure what the point of your series is. No one who is using  
Java now commercially can move to Haskell because Haskell doesn't  
run on the JVM.


It makes sense to discuss Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala, Fan, etc.,  
as "next Java's", because they all run on the JVM and have seamless  
interop with Java. Haskell is not in this category. It's stuck in a  
different world, wholly inaccessible to the masses.


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101


On Sep 27, 2009, at 10:16 AM, Curt Sampson wrote:

No, it's not quite what it sounds like. :-)

Stuart Halloway recently posted a series of blog entries entitled
"Java.next"[1], discussing the benefits of four other languages that
compile to JVM bytecode and interoperate with Java: Clojure, Groovy,
JRuby, and Scala. I thought I'd put my oar in and write a parallel
series comparing Haskell to these. I've finished a draft of the first
posting, started on the third, and made a couple of notes on the  
second

and fourth, and I thought I'd post the drafts[2] and solicit comments
here. If you have time to read and comment, I'd greatly appreciate  
the

help; feel free either to e-mail me privately or post here. Also feel
free to forward this to anybody else you feel might be interested in
commenting.

I'll probably be posting these about one per week, starting some time
next week.

[1]: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/24/java-next-overview
[2]: 
http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html

cjs
--
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737  
2974

 Functional programming in all senses of the word:
 http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe




___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe




___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Jason Dusek]

2009/09/28 John A. De Goes :
> Libraries are _everything_...

  Not exactly. Python would never have gotten a foothold over
  Perl, nor Java over C, if cleaner language semantics weren't
  enough for some shops or certain applications.

--
Jason Dusek
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Curt Sampson]

Ok, my last post on this for real this time.

On 2009-09-28 08:13 -0600 (Mon), John A. De Goes wrote:

> Let me ask you this question: how long would it take you to get an  
> HTML/CSS, W3 compliant browser in Haskell?

A long time. On the other hand, by grabbing a copy of Mozilla, I'll have
one far faster than you'll have yours in Java, mine will work a lot
better, run more quickly, and work better with most sites.

While I advocate using Haskell, I don't advocate being silly. 

(Incidently, I have direct experience with an almost exactly parallel
situation. I replaced a system that was thousands of lines of
difficult-to-maintain Java code with a few hundred lines of Haskell that
feed Microsoft Excel. The user is very pleased that he can now can do
far more extensive tweaking of the UI himself, including major features
he never had at all before, such as real-time graphing of the data.)

> Or how about a peer-to-peer networking system with seamless scaling
> and automatic failover?

Can you give me an example of a real-life system using this you've set
up in "a few minutes"? My experience building systems with similar
things (the very mature and proven MogileFS suite of tools) has been
that the libraries were nice, but did not solve the majority, or even a
large minority, of the problem.

> Libraries are _everything_. In many cases, they can increase your
> effective budget by 10x or even 100x.

Or the other way around, as I've seen by ripping out thousands of lines
of Hibernate code, and all of the work done to adapt a system to that
model, and replace it with a few hundred lines of SQL and JDBC calls.
That library has probably wasted more man-years than anything else I've
seen in the Java world.

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
   Functional programming in all senses of the word:
   http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Peter Verswyvelen]

That's a really shame. Any idea why?
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, John A. De Goes  wrote:

>
> CAL is interesting, but unfortunately dead, and has no community.
>
> Regards,
>
> John A. De Goes
> N-Brain, Inc.
> The Evolution of Collaboration
>
> http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101
>
> On Sep 27, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote:
>
> That's not really true. Just use CAL from the Open Quark framework... It's
> almost Haskell 98, with some extras, and compiles to fast JVM code.
> http://openquark.org/Open_Quark/Welcome.html
>
> They even seem to do all
> kinds of advanced optimizations - like converting tail calls to loops - to
> get good Java performance.
>
> And they have a better record system, a graphical environment to learn it,
> etc.
>
> So I think CAL should be in the list, and since it's basically Haskell...
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 6:36 PM, John A. De Goes  wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not sure what the point of your series is. No one who is using Java
>> now commercially can move to Haskell because Haskell doesn't run on the JVM.
>>
>> It makes sense to discuss Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala, Fan, etc., as
>> "next Java's", because they all run on the JVM and have seamless interop
>> with Java. Haskell is not in this category. It's stuck in a different world,
>> wholly inaccessible to the masses.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> John A. De Goes
>> N-Brain, Inc.
>> The Evolution of Collaboration
>>
>> http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101
>>
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2009, at 10:16 AM, Curt Sampson wrote:
>>
>>  No, it's not quite what it sounds like. :-)
>>>
>>> Stuart Halloway recently posted a series of blog entries entitled
>>> "Java.next"[1], discussing the benefits of four other languages that
>>> compile to JVM bytecode and interoperate with Java: Clojure, Groovy,
>>> JRuby, and Scala. I thought I'd put my oar in and write a parallel
>>> series comparing Haskell to these. I've finished a draft of the first
>>> posting, started on the third, and made a couple of notes on the second
>>> and fourth, and I thought I'd post the drafts[2] and solicit comments
>>> here. If you have time to read and comment, I'd greatly appreciate the
>>> help; feel free either to e-mail me privately or post here. Also feel
>>> free to forward this to anybody else you feel might be interested in
>>> commenting.
>>>
>>> I'll probably be posting these about one per week, starting some time
>>> next week.
>>>
>>> [1]: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/24/java-next-overview
>>> [2]:
>>> http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html
>>>
>>> cjs
>>> --
>>> Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
>>>  Functional programming in all senses of the word:
>>>  http://www.starling-software.com
>>> ___
>>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>
>
>
>
> ___
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Bulat Ziganshin]

Hello Edward,

Monday, September 28, 2009, 6:26:12 PM, you wrote:

>> If you have counterexamples, then perhaps you can name them. I'm looking
>> for Java shops with 5+ developers and code bases of > 100k converting
>> over to Haskell. I don't know _any such shop_ that has switched to
>> Haskell, and I doubt any exist, but I'd be delighted to learn I'm wrong.

> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1596550.1596578

citation: "we thought we might have to interface with Java libraries.
This turned out not to be the case"


-- 
Best regards,
 Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com

___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

RE: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Bayley, Alistair]

> From: haskell-cafe-boun...@haskell.org 
> [mailto:haskell-cafe-boun...@haskell.org] On Behalf Of Edward 
> Middleton
> > 
> > If you have counterexamples, then perhaps you can name 
> them. I'm looking
> > for Java shops with 5+ developers and code bases of > 100k 
> converting
> > over to Haskell. I don't know _any such shop_ that has switched to
> > Haskell, and I doubt any exist, but I'd be delighted to 
> learn I'm wrong.
> 
> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1596550.1596578


If you lack an ACM subscription, then this is likely the same document:
  http://www.starling-software.com/misc/icfp-2009-cjs.pdf

Alistair
*
Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this message,
and any attachments, may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. It is intended solely for the person(s) or entity to
which it is addressed. Any review, retransmission, dissemination,
or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient(s) is
prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the
sender and delete the material from any computer.
*

___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Edward Middleton]

John A. De Goes wrote:
> 
> If you have counterexamples, then perhaps you can name them. I'm looking
> for Java shops with 5+ developers and code bases of > 100k converting
> over to Haskell. I don't know _any such shop_ that has switched to
> Haskell, and I doubt any exist, but I'd be delighted to learn I'm wrong.

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1596550.1596578

Edward
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[John A. De Goes]

If you have counterexamples, then perhaps you can name them. I'm  
looking for Java shops with 5+ developers and code bases of > 100k  
converting over to Haskell. I don't know _any such shop_ that has  
switched to Haskell, and I doubt any exist, but I'd be delighted to  
learn I'm wrong.


Let me ask you this question: how long would it take you to get an  
HTML/CSS, W3 compliant browser in Haskell? Or how about a peer-to-peer  
networking system with seamless scaling and automatic failover? How  
about a scalable BigTable implementation? In Java, the answer to these  
questions -- and just about any others you can think of -- is "a few  
minutes", because the code has already been written.


Libraries are _everything_. In many cases, they can increase your  
effective budget by 10x or even 100x. That means instead of having  
$100k for a project, you suddenly have $1 - 10 million worth of  
resources at your disposal.


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 28, 2009, at 7:49 AM, Curt Sampson wrote:


On 2009-09-28 07:01 -0600 (Mon), John A. De Goes wrote:


And I stand by my statement that no Java shop is going to switch over
to Haskell


I have counterexamples. So "pt!"


...or the _billions of dollars_ worth of commercial-
friendly open source libraries available for the Java platform.


Right; the library myth. I rank this one up there with, "Haskell can
never be an effective programming language, because it doesn't have
objects."

I've been hearing that having lots of libraries is an insurmountable
advantage, and you're doomed if you give them up, since long before I
took up Haskell. It's mostly myth promulgated by people driven by  
fear.

I'm sure it's the case in some shops that they have lots of people who
can glue libraries together but can't program, and they somehow manage
to produce applications this way, but even that I suspect is not so
frequent a situation as you'd think.

Nonetheless, since all of this is rather missing the point of my
articles, anyway, I think I'll leave that as my last word on the  
topic.


cjs
--
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
  Functional programming in all senses of the word:
  http://www.starling-software.com


___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Curt Sampson]

On 2009-09-28 07:01 -0600 (Mon), John A. De Goes wrote:

> And I stand by my statement that no Java shop is going to switch over
> to Haskell

I have counterexamples. So "pt!"

> ...or the _billions of dollars_ worth of commercial- 
> friendly open source libraries available for the Java platform.

Right; the library myth. I rank this one up there with, "Haskell can
never be an effective programming language, because it doesn't have
objects."

I've been hearing that having lots of libraries is an insurmountable
advantage, and you're doomed if you give them up, since long before I
took up Haskell. It's mostly myth promulgated by people driven by fear.
I'm sure it's the case in some shops that they have lots of people who
can glue libraries together but can't program, and they somehow manage
to produce applications this way, but even that I suspect is not so
frequent a situation as you'd think.

Nonetheless, since all of this is rather missing the point of my
articles, anyway, I think I'll leave that as my last word on the topic.

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
   Functional programming in all senses of the word:
   http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[John A. De Goes]

CAL is interesting, but unfortunately dead, and has no community.

Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 27, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote:

That's not really true. Just use CAL from the Open Quark  
framework... It's almost Haskell 98, with some extras, and compiles  
to fast JVM code.


http://openquark.org/Open_Quark/Welcome.html

They even seem to do all kinds of advanced optimizations - like  
converting tail calls to loops - to get good Java performance.


And they have a better record system, a graphical environment to  
learn it, etc.


So I think CAL should be in the list, and since it's basically  
Haskell...


On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 6:36 PM, John A. De Goes   
wrote:


I'm not sure what the point of your series is. No one who is using  
Java now commercially can move to Haskell because Haskell doesn't  
run on the JVM.


It makes sense to discuss Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala, Fan, etc.,  
as "next Java's", because they all run on the JVM and have seamless  
interop with Java. Haskell is not in this category. It's stuck in a  
different world, wholly inaccessible to the masses.


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101


On Sep 27, 2009, at 10:16 AM, Curt Sampson wrote:

No, it's not quite what it sounds like. :-)

Stuart Halloway recently posted a series of blog entries entitled
"Java.next"[1], discussing the benefits of four other languages that
compile to JVM bytecode and interoperate with Java: Clojure, Groovy,
JRuby, and Scala. I thought I'd put my oar in and write a parallel
series comparing Haskell to these. I've finished a draft of the first
posting, started on the third, and made a couple of notes on the  
second

and fourth, and I thought I'd post the drafts[2] and solicit comments
here. If you have time to read and comment, I'd greatly appreciate the
help; feel free either to e-mail me privately or post here. Also feel
free to forward this to anybody else you feel might be interested in
commenting.

I'll probably be posting these about one per week, starting some time
next week.

[1]: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/24/java-next-overview
[2]: 
http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html

cjs
--
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
 Functional programming in all senses of the word:
 http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe



___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[John A. De Goes]

Interop between Haskell and Java is too difficult to be practical. And  
I stand by my statement that no Java shop is going to switch over to  
Haskell, precisely because they cannot afford to abandon either their  
existing investment, or the _billions of dollars_ worth of commercial- 
friendly open source libraries available for the Java platform.


But I do agree on this: the JVM does indeed need a Haskell-like  
language.


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 27, 2009, at 8:10 PM, Curt Sampson wrote:


On 2009-09-27 10:36 -0600 (Sun), John A. De Goes wrote:

I'm not sure what the point of your series is. No one who is using  
Java
now commercially can move to Haskell because Haskell doesn't run on  
the

JVM.


That's a rather strong statement, and I don't accept it. I can not  
only

think of many possible circumstances where it would be possible for a
Java-using shop to write a piece of software that doesn't run on the
JVM, but I have sween many of these. There are lots of shops out there
using, e.g., C++ code as well as Java code, who are already obviously
able to use non-JVM languages.

Given that, one point would be to show that there are more benefits
to be gained by switching from Java to Haskell than there are from
switching from Java to one of the other languages mentioned. This  
may be

enough to tip some shops into Haskell.

Second, it might inspire people to have a look at bringing a more
Haskell-like language to the JVM, or add more Haskell-like features to
existing JVM languages.

Third, even if a shop is not going to switch, having people understand
what's out there, and where many of these ideas come from, is a good
thing, I feel.

cjs
--
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
  Functional programming in all senses of the word:
  http://www.starling-software.com


___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Curt Sampson]

On 2009-09-28 11:13 +0400 (Mon), Bulat Ziganshin wrote:

> > http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html
> 
> what are the types of balance and interest in balance * interest
> expression? ;)

I dunno, but I think it's not really relevant to the point of the
example from the original article

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
   Functional programming in all senses of the word:
   http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Bulat Ziganshin]

Hello Curt,

Sunday, September 27, 2009, 8:16:53 PM, you wrote:

> http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html

what are the types of balance and interest in balance * interest
expression? ;)



-- 
Best regards,
 Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com

___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Tom Davies]

On 28/09/2009, at 7:38 AM, Peter Verswyvelen wrote:

That's not really true. Just use CAL from the Open Quark  
framework... It's almost Haskell 98, with some extras, and compiles  
to fast JVM code.


http://openquark.org/Open_Quark/Welcome.html

They even seem to do all kinds of advanced optimizations - like  
converting tail calls to loops - to get good Java performance.


And they have a better record system, a graphical environment to  
learn it, etc.


So I think CAL should be in the list, and since it's basically  
Haskell...


Liking CAL, I suggested it be included in a comment when the original  
post was made, but I never made the time to write up a matching set of  
examples myself.


Curt, your first blog post is almost compatible with CAL -- you don't  
need to use a record type to get named accessors, CAL doesn't support  
list comprehension syntax, and the isBlank implementation would be  
different.


Obviously the Java interop capabilities of CAL are very different to  
Haskell (and a bit verbose, though quite extensive).


Dispatch comes out more-or-less the same -- although CAL doesn't do  
equational style function defs or comprehensive pattern matching like  
Haskell. In CAL I'd write letter_grade something like (untested):


letter_grade :: Num a => a -> Maybe Char;
letter_grade val =
  find (\pair -> fst pair $ val) [(> 90, 'A'), ... )] `bind` (\p ->  
return $ snd p);


where bind is >>=

Tom

___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Curt Sampson]

On 2009-09-27 10:36 -0600 (Sun), John A. De Goes wrote:

> I'm not sure what the point of your series is. No one who is using Java 
> now commercially can move to Haskell because Haskell doesn't run on the 
> JVM.

That's a rather strong statement, and I don't accept it. I can not only
think of many possible circumstances where it would be possible for a
Java-using shop to write a piece of software that doesn't run on the
JVM, but I have sween many of these. There are lots of shops out there
using, e.g., C++ code as well as Java code, who are already obviously
able to use non-JVM languages.

Given that, one point would be to show that there are more benefits
to be gained by switching from Java to Haskell than there are from
switching from Java to one of the other languages mentioned. This may be
enough to tip some shops into Haskell.

Second, it might inspire people to have a look at bringing a more
Haskell-like language to the JVM, or add more Haskell-like features to
existing JVM languages.

Third, even if a shop is not going to switch, having people understand
what's out there, and where many of these ideas come from, is a good
thing, I feel.

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
   Functional programming in all senses of the word:
   http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Peter Verswyvelen]

That's not really true. Just use CAL from the Open Quark framework... It's
almost Haskell 98, with some extras, and compiles to fast JVM code.
http://openquark.org/Open_Quark/Welcome.html

They even seem to do all kinds
of advanced optimizations - like converting tail calls to loops - to get
good Java performance.

And they have a better record system, a graphical environment to learn it,
etc.

So I think CAL should be in the list, and since it's basically Haskell...

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 6:36 PM, John A. De Goes  wrote:

>
> I'm not sure what the point of your series is. No one who is using Java now
> commercially can move to Haskell because Haskell doesn't run on the JVM.
>
> It makes sense to discuss Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala, Fan, etc., as
> "next Java's", because they all run on the JVM and have seamless interop
> with Java. Haskell is not in this category. It's stuck in a different world,
> wholly inaccessible to the masses.
>
> Regards,
>
> John A. De Goes
> N-Brain, Inc.
> The Evolution of Collaboration
>
> http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101
>
>
> On Sep 27, 2009, at 10:16 AM, Curt Sampson wrote:
>
>  No, it's not quite what it sounds like. :-)
>>
>> Stuart Halloway recently posted a series of blog entries entitled
>> "Java.next"[1], discussing the benefits of four other languages that
>> compile to JVM bytecode and interoperate with Java: Clojure, Groovy,
>> JRuby, and Scala. I thought I'd put my oar in and write a parallel
>> series comparing Haskell to these. I've finished a draft of the first
>> posting, started on the third, and made a couple of notes on the second
>> and fourth, and I thought I'd post the drafts[2] and solicit comments
>> here. If you have time to read and comment, I'd greatly appreciate the
>> help; feel free either to e-mail me privately or post here. Also feel
>> free to forward this to anybody else you feel might be interested in
>> commenting.
>>
>> I'll probably be posting these about one per week, starting some time
>> next week.
>>
>> [1]: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/24/java-next-overview
>> [2]:
>> http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html
>>
>> cjs
>> --
>> Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
>>  Functional programming in all senses of the word:
>>  http://www.starling-software.com
>> ___
>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>
>
> ___
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[John A. De Goes]

I'm not sure what the point of your series is. No one who is using  
Java now commercially can move to Haskell because Haskell doesn't run  
on the JVM.


It makes sense to discuss Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala, Fan, etc., as  
"next Java's", because they all run on the JVM and have seamless  
interop with Java. Haskell is not in this category. It's stuck in a  
different world, wholly inaccessible to the masses.


Regards,

John A. De Goes
N-Brain, Inc.
The Evolution of Collaboration

http://www.n-brain.net|877-376-2724 x 101

On Sep 27, 2009, at 10:16 AM, Curt Sampson wrote:


No, it's not quite what it sounds like. :-)

Stuart Halloway recently posted a series of blog entries entitled
"Java.next"[1], discussing the benefits of four other languages that
compile to JVM bytecode and interoperate with Java: Clojure, Groovy,
JRuby, and Scala. I thought I'd put my oar in and write a parallel
series comparing Haskell to these. I've finished a draft of the first
posting, started on the third, and made a couple of notes on the  
second

and fourth, and I thought I'd post the drafts[2] and solicit comments
here. If you have time to read and comment, I'd greatly appreciate the
help; feel free either to e-mail me privately or post here. Also feel
free to forward this to anybody else you feel might be interested in
commenting.

I'll probably be posting these about one per week, starting some time
next week.

[1]: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/24/java-next-overview
[2]: 
http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html

cjs
--
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
  Functional programming in all senses of the word:
  http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe


___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

[Haskell-cafe] Comments requested: succ Java

[Curt Sampson]

No, it's not quite what it sounds like. :-)

Stuart Halloway recently posted a series of blog entries entitled
"Java.next"[1], discussing the benefits of four other languages that
compile to JVM bytecode and interoperate with Java: Clojure, Groovy,
JRuby, and Scala. I thought I'd put my oar in and write a parallel
series comparing Haskell to these. I've finished a draft of the first
posting, started on the third, and made a couple of notes on the second
and fourth, and I thought I'd post the drafts[2] and solicit comments
here. If you have time to read and comment, I'd greatly appreciate the
help; feel free either to e-mail me privately or post here. Also feel
free to forward this to anybody else you feel might be interested in
commenting.

I'll probably be posting these about one per week, starting some time
next week.

[1]: http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/9/24/java-next-overview
[2]: 
http://www.starling-software.com/en/blog/drafts/2009/09/27.succ-java-summary.html

cjs
-- 
Curt Sampson   +81 90 7737 2974
   Functional programming in all senses of the word:
   http://www.starling-software.com
___
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe