Re: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Ashley Yakeley ash...@semantic.org wrote: Eelco Lempsink wrote: The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options! Lots of nice submissions! Here are some thing that are worth keeping in mind when voting. How does the logo work: * on different backgrounds (in particular: white), * at small sizes (on file system icons, 16x16 pixels browser favicon, etc), and * in different cultures (i.e. does it contain e.g. a pun that many people won't understand). Cheers, Johan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Ashley Yakeley ash...@semantic.org wrote: Eelco Lempsink wrote: The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options! The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System ( http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html). So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a daunting task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we can each cut down a bit on the work. For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not like either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot (after the ones you do like) if you have a preference between them. But there's less need to rank the ones no-one likes. I'm pretty sure this is precisely how the system works. You bring the ones you care about to the top and rank them, and everything else shares a rank at the bottom (or you could pick a few of those that you really dislike and put them even lower than the default rank). But the point is that you shouldn't need to rank every single logo, just the ones you care about and then you leave the rest at the default rank. -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
Hello Sebastian, Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote: i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1 after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Ashley Yakeley ash...@semantic.org wrote: Eelco Lempsink wrote: The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options! The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html). So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a daunting task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we can each cut down a bit on the work. For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not like either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot (after the ones you do like) if you have a preference between them. But there's less need to rank the ones no-one likes. I'm pretty sure this is precisely how the system works. You bring the ones you care about to the top and rank them, and everything else shares a rank at the bottom (or you could pick a few of those that you really dislike and put them even lower than the default rank). But the point is that you shouldn't need to rank every single logo, just the ones you care about and then you leave the rest at the default rank. -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Bulat Ziganshin wrote: Hello Sebastian, Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote: i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1 after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them Sounds reasonable, although I thought that those advanced voting systems are also intended for avoiding multiple elections. Then again, if both elections lead to the same ranking at the top, and especially yield the same top candidate, then this proves the soundness of the method. On the other hand, a dictatorship would also satisfy this property. Yes, I know, there was a Nobel Prize about that ... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.comwrote: Hello Sebastian, Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote: i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1 after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them One of the reasons condorcet voting is good is that this isn't needed. If everyone is consistent in which logos they prefer the results from second voting stage will be identical to just picking the condorcet voting from the first stage. The interface to the condorcet voting site is actually pretty good (try out one of the samples), so it's pretty easy to just move to top the ones you prefer and move the ones you dislike to the bottom. Then you can ignore the vast majority of don't care logos in the middle, and just fine tune your ranking at the top and bottom. -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Sylvan sebastian.syl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Sebastian, Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote: i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1 after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them One of the reasons condorcet voting is good is that this isn't needed. If everyone is consistent in which logos they prefer the results from second voting stage will be identical to just picking the condorcet voting from the first stage. picking the condorcet winner -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
2009/3/9 Sebastian Sylvan sebastian.syl...@gmail.com On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Sebastian, Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote: i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1 after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them One of the reasons condorcet voting is good is that this isn't needed. If everyone is consistent in which logos they prefer the results from second voting stage will be identical to just picking the condorcet voting from the first stage. The interface to the condorcet voting site is actually pretty good (try out one of the samples), so it's pretty easy to just move to top the ones you prefer and move the ones you dislike to the bottom. Then you can ignore the vast majority of don't care logos in the middle, and just fine tune your ranking at the top and bottom. With so many candidates, I think a two-stage process would be helpful. For example, what if a variant of a logo I liked ended up being popular, but I missed that one and didn't rank it (not unreasonable, there are a hundred logos). After the top candidates have been selected, I will surely notice it up there. Of course, introducing multi-stage voting breaks some of the properties we'd like a voting system to have. But, alas, you (provably) can't have it all :-) Luke ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, 2009-03-09 at 10:08 +, Sebastian Sylvan wrote: But the point is that you shouldn't need to rank every single logo, just the ones you care about and then you leave the rest at the default rank. You'll also want to rank the popular ones even if you don't like them. -- Ashley Yakeley ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/3/9 Sebastian Sylvan sebastian.syl...@gmail.com On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Sebastian, Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote: i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1 after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them One of the reasons condorcet voting is good is that this isn't needed. If everyone is consistent in which logos they prefer the results from second voting stage will be identical to just picking the condorcet voting from the first stage. The interface to the condorcet voting site is actually pretty good (try out one of the samples), so it's pretty easy to just move to top the ones you prefer and move the ones you dislike to the bottom. Then you can ignore the vast majority of don't care logos in the middle, and just fine tune your ranking at the top and bottom. With so many candidates, I think a two-stage process would be helpful. For example, what if a variant of a logo I liked ended up being popular, but I missed that one and didn't rank it (not unreasonable, there are a hundred logos). After the top candidates have been selected, I will surely notice it up there. Of course, introducing multi-stage voting breaks some of the properties we'd like a voting system to have. But, alas, you (provably) can't have it all :-) It just seems like duplicated work to me. They're still few enough that I can scan through them and multi-select the ones I like and then click move to top in a pretty short amount of time (and then refine the ranking if I care). Having to vote twice just seems like a lot of extra effort for questionable added benefit. Maybe one vote requires people to be more careful about their rank (though you'd hope that any minor mistakes, such as the one you describe, would be random and therefore roughly cancel out over a few hundred votes), but at least it won't require them to vote twice. I say leave the plan the way it is. It's Good Enough (TM). The hassles of more delays while we go through an arduous processes isn't worth any theoretical minor gains. -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re[4]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
Hello Sebastian, Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 1:08:38 AM, you wrote: It just seems like duplicated work to me. They're still few enough that I can scan through them and multi-select the ones I like and then click move to top in a pretty short amount of time (and then refine the ranking if I care). and if none of them will be among 10 most popular - it is no difference for you which one will be finally selected? -- Best regards, Bulatmailto:bulat.zigans...@gmail.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[4]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.comwrote: Hello Sebastian, Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 1:08:38 AM, you wrote: It just seems like duplicated work to me. They're still few enough that I can scan through them and multi-select the ones I like and then click move to top in a pretty short amount of time (and then refine the ranking if I care). and if none of them will be among 10 most popular - it is no difference for you which one will be finally selected? Clearly not, because if I did have a preference among them I would've ranked them - if I didn't then I must not care either way. I suspect 99% will have a few favourites, and then they will have a few that they object to, and for the rest they just don't care which ones win. Expressing that with the proposed system is easy. -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re[4]: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:38 PM, Sebastian Sylvan sebastian.syl...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Bulat Ziganshin bulat.zigans...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Sebastian, Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 1:08:38 AM, you wrote: It just seems like duplicated work to me. They're still few enough that I can scan through them and multi-select the ones I like and then click move to top in a pretty short amount of time (and then refine the ranking if I care). and if none of them will be among 10 most popular - it is no difference for you which one will be finally selected? Clearly not, because if I did have a preference among them I would've ranked them - if I didn't then I must not care either way. I suspect 99% will have a few favourites, and then they will have a few that they object to, and for the rest they just don't care which ones win. Expressing that with the proposed system is easy. Also, let's be realistic. We can all look at the list and figure out which logos are likely to be popular - so just make sure you rank those. Adding even more time and hassle for the people who are already donating their time to arrange this for free isn't going to improve things significantly, I think. -- Sebastian Sylvan +44(0)7857-300802 UIN: 44640862 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
Eelco Lempsink wrote: The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options! The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html). So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a daunting task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we can each cut down a bit on the work. For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not like either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot (after the ones you do like) if you have a preference between them. But there's less need to rank the ones no-one likes. I'm currently liking 30 (specifically, 30.7) 58 61 (specifically, the second image) 62 -- Ashley Yakeley ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
Another alternative, perhaps we rank the first n we care about, and regard the rest as ranked as low as possible? Since Condorcet allows ties, it should work -- I don't know if it _technically_ allows for skipping ranks, though, but I imagine it would still work... Ashley Yakeley wrote: Eelco Lempsink wrote: The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options! The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html). So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a daunting task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we can each cut down a bit on the work. For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not like either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot (after the ones you do like) if you have a preference between them. But there's less need to rank the ones no-one likes. I'm currently liking 30 (specifically, 30.7) 58 61 (specifically, the second image) 62 begin:vcard fn:Joseph Fredette n:Fredette;Joseph adr:Apartment #3;;6 Dean Street;Worcester;Massachusetts;01609;United States of America email;internet:jfred...@gmail.com tel;home:1-508-966-9889 tel;cell:1-508-254-9901 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:lowlymath.net, humbuggery.net version:2.1 end:vcard ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
2009/3/9 Joseph Fredette jfred...@gmail.com Another alternative, perhaps we rank the first n we care about, and regard the rest as ranked as low as possible? Since Condorcet allows ties, it should work -- I don't know if it _technically_ allows for skipping ranks, though, but I imagine it would still work... Only the relative ranking of the options in your ballot should matter; so there's really no such thing as skipping a rank. However, I am not familiar with the CIVS implementation specifically, so don't take my assertion as authoritative. -- mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Logo Preferences
Excerpts from Ashley Yakeley's message of Sun Mar 08 17:19:43 -0600 2009: Eelco Lempsink wrote: The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options! The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html). I'm currently liking 61 (specifically, the second image) Forgive my asking for even more options here, (plenty of paint to cover the shed as it is), but regarding 61, a couple of those are in my top few, while the rest rank considerably lower. Would it be possible to distinguish them like the ones in 30? No worries if not, seems there may need to be some refinement process after this round anyway. -- wmw ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
