Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 212
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 22:52 -0500, Daniel Santa Cruz wrote: * shachaf: Haskell's type system is the perfect mix of useless and stupid. ...btw, what's the context of this quote? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 201
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 8:09 PM, Daniel Santa Cruz dstc...@gmail.comwrote: Welcome to issue 201 of the HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the Haskell community. This release covers the week of September 18 to 24, 2011. You can find the HTML version of this issue at: http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/2011/09/haskell-weekly-news-issue-201.html Hello everyone, It has been brought to my attention that the google shortened links for issue 201 are broken. It seems that the script that does that decided to take a vacation between last week's issue and this one. I apologize for the inconvenience. You might have better luck reading the HTML version of this issue. Sincerely, Daniel ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
You could always just subscribe to the HWN feed on Contemplating Code. I just load up my reader when I don't want to read the text dispatches. Try http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default?alt=rss That's the feed URL I use. Then the one on the mailing list is your plaintext fallback. :D On Jun 23, 2011, at 8:48 PM, Conrad Parker wrote: On 24 June 2011 02:24, Rogan Creswick cresw...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote: On 6/23/11 10:49 AM, Iustin Pop wrote: FYI, a regular link (though longer) seems more appropriate to me. Don't know if other people feel the same though. I prefer the short links, since it is much easier to keep track of what's going on when reading on a small screen (much of my email reading these days is done on my phone.) I'd prefer to just read an HTML version of HWN on my phone. How about simply sending an HTML email with a plaintext fallback? In the plaintext email I'd prefer full URLs to cut/copy on my computer terminal. Conrad. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe 398E692F.asc Description: application/apple-msg-attachment PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Felipe Almeida Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Rogan Creswick cresw...@gmail.com wrote: Short, obfsucated, urls may direct you places you don't want to go, but I fail to see how that concern applies to HWN: since each url is accompanied by a description of its content, that seems to obviate the need to see the actual url. In most cases, the text also indicates the domain that you will visit, so you can avoid supporting stackoverflow with page impressions if you wish (for example). It is also possible to borrow half of Slashdot's system and write something like http://goo.gl/G081Q [article.gmane.org] Is that a good compromise? That is a nice in-situ style. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the footnote proponents' main argument is that its lightweight nature causes less of an interruption when reading the text. I think its fair to say that those who RTFA more often would benefit most from in-situ and those who rarely RTFA benefit most from the footnote style. I'm in the former group, but who knows what most people do? David -- David Sankel Sankel Software www.sankelsoftware.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On 23/06/2011 11:30 PM, Jack Henahan wrote: My solution for the '[0] with a link far down the page' issue is just to search for '[0]'. My solution is to never read the text version and only ever read the HTML version. Works great for me. :-) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
It's probably obvious, but is there a reason why the links in this email are being minimised? On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Daniel Santa Cruz dstc...@gmail.com wrote: Welcome to issue 187 of the HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the Haskell community. This release covers the week of June 12 to 18, 2011. Announcements Ian Lynagh announced a new patchlevel release of GHC (7.0.4). This release contains a handful of bugfixes relative to 7.0.3, so we recommend upgrading. http://goo.gl/hOvdA Nicolas Wu released the third instance fo Haskell Parallel Digest. Many thanks to Nick and Eric for putting this together. http://goo.gl/s5muy Jeroen Janssen invited us to the 8th Ghent Functional Programming Group Meeting, to be held on Thursday, the 30th of June, in the Technicum building of Ghent University. http://goo.gl/G081Q Quotes of the Week * monochrom: if I were dying to learn covariance, I would not be looking for entertainment, like, I'm dying, I only have 5 minutes to learn covariance, thank you very much * hpc: the categorical dual of a hippomorphism should be a giraffomorphism * ksf: but, as, maybe indeed or not apparently, english, in, or especially in, punctuation matters is an utter mess. * 00:56:03 benmachine @faq can haskell tell if I am lagging [...] 00:57:18 lambdabot The answer is: Yes! Haskell can do that. Top Reddit Stories * Haskell: the Craft of Functional Programming, 3rd edition is out! Domain: haskellcraft.com, Score: 44, Comments: 10 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/6ZInj Original: http://goo.gl/t0GAX * GHC 7.0.4 is out Domain: haskell.org, Score: 42, Comments: 2 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/oxSJH Original: http://goo.gl/EzWUP * SafeHaskell pushed into GHC Domain: haskell.org, Score: 39, Comments: 5 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/sOrjr Original: http://goo.gl/2Rw56 * Minimum footprint for a GHC program: or, think about your TSOs Domain: stackoverflow.com, Score: 23, Comments: 0 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/eIF0o Original: http://goo.gl/dRgLG * Pieces of Yesod: Inverting a Haskell Function Domain: chplib.wordpress.com, Score: 21, Comments: 8 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/NFJNH Original: http://goo.gl/x2cz2 * The 2011 ICFP contest is starting in just 6 hours! Domain: icfpcontest.org, Score: 20, Comments: 15 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/BS7XI Original: http://goo.gl/oqj0Y * A pattern for avoiding allocation : Inside T5 Domain: blog.ezyang.com, Score: 19, Comments: 12 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/thuRP Original: http://goo.gl/IZCIh * Package of the Day: an improved runghc for fast repeated runs Domain: hackage.haskell.org, Score: 16, Comments: 9 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/k6mQK Original: http://goo.gl/a0DAC * The Supero Supercompiler Domain: community.haskell.org, Score: 16, Comments: 2 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/vBeFO Original: http://goo.gl/3QsmC * Galois Video: Building an Open-Source Autonomous Quad-Copter Domain: corp.galois.com, Score: 15, Comments: 3 On Reddit: http://goo.gl/HZghO Original: http://goo.gl/6AcMw Top StackOverflow Questions * Why does performGC fail to release all memory? votes: 17, answers: 2 Read on SO: http://goo.gl/dRgLG * OSX, ghci, dylib, what is the correct way? votes: 17, answers: 1 Read on SO: http://goo.gl/0s9Tu * Why does Haskell's `head` crash on an empty list (or why *doesn't* it return an empty list)? (Language philosophy) votes: 15, answers: 6 Read on SO: http://goo.gl/tghQR * Towards understanding CodeGen* in the Haskell LLVM bindings votes: 13, answers: 1 Read on SO: http://goo.gl/LPZ2F * What happens to you if you break the monad laws? votes: 13, answers: 3 Read on SO: http://goo.gl/Trvny * Is anyone using delimited continuations to do web development in Haskell? votes: 12, answers: 3 Read on SO: http://goo.gl/hGjuB * The concept of Bottom in Haskell votes: 12, answers: 1 Read on SO: http://goo.gl/9b1ZJ About the Haskell Weekly News To help create new editions of this newsletter, please send stories to dstc...@gmail.com. Until next time, Daniel Santa Cruz ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
Lyndon, The links are minimized in hopes of making the plain text version somewhat readable. It is purely for aesthetical reasons. If you view the web version http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/2011/06/haskell-weekly-news-issue-187.html you'll see that they are not minimized there. Daniel On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Lyndon Maydwell maydw...@gmail.com wrote: It's probably obvious, but is there a reason why the links in this email are being minimised? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 01:26:58PM -0400, Daniel Santa Cruz wrote: Lyndon, The links are minimized in hopes of making the plain text version somewhat readable. It is purely for aesthetical reasons. If you view the web version http://contemplatecode.blogspot.com/2011/06/haskell-weekly-news-issue-187.html you'll see that they are not minimized there. FYI, a regular link (though longer) seems more appropriate to me. Don't know if other people feel the same though. But anyway, thanks for the HWN (in either short or the long form)! regards, iustin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote: On 6/23/11 10:49 AM, Iustin Pop wrote: FYI, a regular link (though longer) seems more appropriate to me. Don't know if other people feel the same though. I prefer the short links, since it is much easier to keep track of what's going on when reading on a small screen (much of my email reading these days is done on my phone.) If we switch to long links, could they be forward referenced in the footer, so as to not disrupt the flow of the text, as the HWN used to be? (if I remember correctly.) --Rogan +1 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On 6/23/11 10:49 AM, Iustin Pop wrote: FYI, a regular link (though longer) seems more appropriate to me. Don't know if other people feel the same though. +1 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
Picky readers we are. I don't mind URL length. And there are ways to have long URLs in-situ without being a big disruption. I hate the borrowed academic practice of saying [0] and giving the URL two hundred lines later. It worked great on paper in hands because I could stick my finger to the paper to remember where to return. It also works great on real HTML documents because browsers have a back button for the same. It completely fails in plain text email because I can't stick a finger and I can't press the back button. Which one is the bigger disruption: an in-situ long URL that makes me skip oh two lines to continue with the main text? or the URL postponed by two hundred lines so I have to first remember it is [1] not [0] this time, then scroll down several pages to hunt for the URL, and then... I forget where to return to? If people want short URLs, I don't mind that either, but I'm picky on how they are shortened. The shortener should offer the option of showing me the original URL and waiting for me to go ahead or abort. As far as I know this means tinyurl.com only. Thank you for bearing with my rant. [0] No URL for this. [1] No URL for this either. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:26 PM, Albert Y. C. Lai tre...@vex.net wrote: I hate the borrowed academic practice of saying [0] and giving the URL two hundred lines later. It worked great on paper in hands because I could stick my finger to the paper to remember where to return. It also works great on real HTML documents because browsers have a back button for the same. It completely fails in plain text email because I can't stick a finger and I can't press the back button. Which one is the bigger disruption: This depends entirely on why you are reading the content -- something that there is no consensus on :) in-situ long URL that makes me skip oh two lines to continue with the main text? This is substantially more disruptive than two lines when reading on a cell phone. Lines that are not intended to wrap in the textual layout end up wrapping with longer URLs, making it more difficult to figure out where the next line of actual text continues. Longer URLs also create larger areas that you can't touch to scroll a message. Short, obfsucated, urls may direct you places you don't want to go, but I fail to see how that concern applies to HWN: since each url is accompanied by a description of its content, that seems to obviate the need to see the actual url. In most cases, the text also indicates the domain that you will visit, so you can avoid supporting stackoverflow with page impressions if you wish (for example). Eventually this should just be a client-side rendering preference, but we aren't quite there yet. In any case, I think that's a pretty complete description of my perspective/motivation (not that I'm strongly motivated), so I'm bowing out to watch :) --Rogan or the URL postponed by two hundred lines so I have to first remember it is [1] not [0] this time, then scroll down several pages to hunt for the URL, and then... I forget where to return to? If people want short URLs, I don't mind that either, but I'm picky on how they are shortened. The shortener should offer the option of showing me the original URL and waiting for me to go ahead or abort. As far as I know this means tinyurl.com only. Thank you for bearing with my rant. [0] No URL for this. [1] No URL for this either. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
Whoops, forgot to Reply All. My solution for the '[0] with a link far down the page' issue is just to search for '[0]'. Then it brings me to the link, I can open it if I like, and then I just search again for '[0]' and it brings me back to the context. It's imperfect and requires wraparound search, but it works (assuming they don't just have '[0]' scattered all over the place). I agree in principle, though. I just wish I could get my mail client to render Markdown as HTML. That'd make things so much nicer. On Jun 23, 2011, at 5:26 PM, Albert Y. C. Lai wrote: Picky readers we are. I don't mind URL length. And there are ways to have long URLs in-situ without being a big disruption. I hate the borrowed academic practice of saying [0] and giving the URL two hundred lines later. It worked great on paper in hands because I could stick my finger to the paper to remember where to return. It also works great on real HTML documents because browsers have a back button for the same. It completely fails in plain text email because I can't stick a finger and I can't press the back button. Which one is the bigger disruption: an in-situ long URL that makes me skip oh two lines to continue with the main text? or the URL postponed by two hundred lines so I have to first remember it is [1] not [0] this time, then scroll down several pages to hunt for the URL, and then... I forget where to return to? If people want short URLs, I don't mind that either, but I'm picky on how they are shortened. The shortener should offer the option of showing me the original URL and waiting for me to go ahead or abort. As far as I know this means tinyurl.com only. Thank you for bearing with my rant. [0] No URL for this. [1] No URL for this either. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe 398E692F.asc Description: application/apple-msg-attachment PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Rogan Creswick cresw...@gmail.com wrote: Short, obfsucated, urls may direct you places you don't want to go, but I fail to see how that concern applies to HWN: since each url is accompanied by a description of its content, that seems to obviate the need to see the actual url. In most cases, the text also indicates the domain that you will visit, so you can avoid supporting stackoverflow with page impressions if you wish (for example). It is also possible to borrow half of Slashdot's system and write something like http://goo.gl/G081Q [article.gmane.org] Is that a good compromise? Cheers, -- Felipe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 187
On 24 June 2011 02:24, Rogan Creswick cresw...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote: On 6/23/11 10:49 AM, Iustin Pop wrote: FYI, a regular link (though longer) seems more appropriate to me. Don't know if other people feel the same though. I prefer the short links, since it is much easier to keep track of what's going on when reading on a small screen (much of my email reading these days is done on my phone.) I'd prefer to just read an HTML version of HWN on my phone. How about simply sending an HTML email with a plaintext fallback? In the plaintext email I'd prefer full URLs to cut/copy on my computer terminal. Conrad. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 159 - November 17, 2010
On 11/17/2010 09:56 PM, Daniel Santa Cruz wrote: Curious about the most active members of the #haskell IRC channel? Out of around 28K utterances in the channel this week, 24% of them where spoken by the top 5 most active members. Not suprisingly, the dear lambdabot is at the top of the list. lambdabot 2094 kmc 1263 jmcarthur 1221 Eduard_Munteanu 1142 EvanR-work 1007 Hmm... Should I be embarrassed? - Jake ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 155 - October 20, 2010
On 10/21/10 5:38 AM, Ketil Malde wrote: I'm always getting two copies of everything in haskell@, since everything is cross-posted to -cafe. Are there actually people subscribed to -cafe, but *not* to hask...@? And if so, why? I am. In part because I don't want to get two copies of everything, but in part because I'm lazy. So adding another list to my reading queue, especially one that's specified as sort of being a subset of the content here, seems like it'd be too much. Usually communities in this situation will have the subset list set up to automatically forward everything to the main list as well, in order to alleviate these sorts of things. Did I mention the lazy? :) -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 155 - October 20, 2010
I just noticed that the recent revival of HWN is only being posted to haskell-cafe. I know there are lots of people who no longer subscribe to -cafe because of the amount of traffic, but who remain subscribed to the hask...@haskell.org list to receive announcements only, and who might value HWN as a quick-summary catchup of community news. Can you resume posting HWN there as well please? On 20 Oct 2010, at 23:00, Daniel Santa Cruz wrote: Welcome to issue 155 of the HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community in the week of October 10 - 16. This time around we again have 87 posts to HackageDB. Instead of posting the individual packages, we get to see and celebrate the 43 people behind these efforts. Want to keep a close eye on the haskellers that lurk twitter? Don Steward made [2]a twitter list of tweeting haskellers! Let him know if you'd like to be added to the list. There were a total of 24 new stories posted to the Haskell Reddit channel, 27 new questions taged with Haskell in StackOverflow, and 408 messages posted to Haskell-Cafe. So, what was hot last week? Announcements Gregory Crosswhite is pleased to [3]announce the release of a family of packages for type-level natural numbers. He also [4]announced tagged-list, a package which provides fixed-length lists that are tagged with a phantom type-level natural number corresponding to the length. Janis Voigtlander [5]announced that it is time to collect contributions for the 19th edition of the Haskell Communities Activities Report. The submission deadline is November 1, 2010. Alexander Solla [6]announced his new Facts library. The Facts hierarchy is meant to contain commonly used, relatively static facts about the real world. Kevin Jardine [7]announced polyToMonoid: a library that supplies two very general polyvariadic functions that can map their arguments into any monoid you specify. Simon Hengel [8]announced a new version of DocTest. DocTest now uses Haddock for parsing of comments. Interesting Threads on Haskell-Cafe Michael Snoyman [9]reported that Haskellers.com has become popular a lot falter that he anticipated. Read up on what changes are planned for Haskellers.com. Michael is very interested in some help with running the site. Jacek Generowicz [10]asked how to deal with dynamic dispatch on extensible sets of types. Uwe Schmidt [11]replied to a question about why HXT uses arrows as opposed to using monads. Good comments followed. Jason Dusek [12]asked if there is a way to write a Haskell data structure that is necessarily only one or two or seventeen items long; but that is nonetheless statically guaranteed to be of finite length? Twenty-three messages followed. Simon Thompson [13]annouced the availability of books for review for the Journal of Functonial Programming. Andrew Copping [14]summarized a report produced by Google Szwitzerland on taking a Python system and rewriting bits of it in Haskell, some of which is now in production use. Ben Franksen [15]ranted about the current Haskell Blurb on the first paragraph of haskell.org. Quite the read to end the week :) Top Reddit Stories * Using Haskell’s ‘newtype’ in C Domain: blog.nelhage.com Score: 37, Comments: 5 On Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dptzh/using_haskells_newtype_in_c/ Original: http://blog.nelhage.com/2010/10/using-haskells-newtype-in-c/ * The Haskell theme: consistent visual branding for Haskell Domain: haskell.org Score: 34, Comments: 11 On Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dqiej/the_haskell_theme_consistent_visual_branding_for/ Original: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2010-October/084781.html * Haskellers: Survey results and new site features Domain: haskellers.com Score: 22, Comments: 6 On Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dr37b/haskellers_survey_results_and_new_site_features/ Original: http://www.haskellers.com/news/1/ * My Experience Learning Haskell Domain: blog.virtucal.com Score: 21, Comments: 6 On Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/drgcz/my_experience_learning_haskell/ Original: http://blog.virtucal.com/cyclical/2010/10/14/my-experience-learning-haskell.html * Invertible monads for exception handling and memory allocations Domain: docs.yesodweb.com Score: 21, Comments: 0 On Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/drkdj/invertible_monads_for_exception_handling_and/ Original: http://docs.yesodweb.com/blog/invertible-monads-exceptions-allocations/ * Accelerating Haskell Array Codes with Multicore GPUs Domain: justtesting.org Score: 19, Comments: 0 On Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/dq1yo/accelerating_haskell_array_codes_with_multicore/ Original:
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 155 - October 20, 2010
Malcolm Wallace malcolm.wall...@me.com writes: might value HWN as a quick-summary catchup of community news. Can you resume posting HWN there as well please? s/as well/instead/g I'm always getting two copies of everything in haskell@, since everything is cross-posted to -cafe. Are there actually people subscribed to -cafe, but *not* to hask...@? And if so, why? -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 155 - October 20, 2010
On Thursday 21 October 2010 11:38:37, Ketil Malde wrote: I'm always getting two copies of everything in haskell@, since everything is cross-posted to -cafe. Are there actually people subscribed to -cafe, but *not* to hask...@? And if so, why? I have long been subscribed to -cafe but not to hask...@. Regarding why, I wasn't interested in what haskell@ was supposed to be for, while I was interested in what -cafe is for. I agree it's a little annoying to get two copies of everything cross-posted (sometimes three if libraries@ is also involved), but I'd be very cautious about removing -cafe from the recipients. Cheers, Daniel ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 155 - October 20, 2010
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:38, Ketil Malde ke...@malde.org wrote: Are there actually people subscribed to -cafe, but *not* to hask...@? Yes. And if so, why? Because... I'm always getting two copies of everything in haskell@, since everything is cross-posted to -cafe. :) --Max ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 155 - October 20, 2010
Hi, On 21.10.2010, at 11:38, Ketil Malde wrote: Malcolm Wallace malcolm.wall...@me.com writes: might value HWN as a quick-summary catchup of community news. Can you resume posting HWN there as well please? s/as well/instead/g +1 I'm always getting two copies of everything in haskell@, since everything is cross-posted to -cafe. Are there actually people subscribed to -cafe, but *not* to hask...@? And if so, why? Over the last year the volume of traffic in haskell-cafe has increased so much, that I am often not able to follow everything. Which means there are often hundreds of emails in my haskell-cafe folder marked as new. Having announcements separated or in haskell@ would be IMHO a real improvement. If every announcement or periodic status update (as e.g. HWN) is cross posted then there is no need for having two separate mailinglist. And I'd assume there is no majority in favor of merging those two mailinglist. -- Jean ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 155 - October 20, 2010
Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.de writes: I have long been subscribed to -cafe but not to hask...@. Regarding why, I wasn't interested in what haskell@ was supposed to be for, while I was interested in what -cafe is for. The Wiki documents these lists as: hask...@haskell.org Announcements, discussion openers, technical questions. hask...@haskell.org is intended to be a low-bandwidth list, to which it is safe to subscribe without risking being buried in email. If a thread becomes longer than a handful of messages, please transfer to haskell-c...@haskell.org. haskell-cafe@haskell.org (archives) General Haskell questions; extended discussions. In Simon Peyton Jones' words: forum in which it's acceptable to ask anything, no matter how naive, and get polite replies. I'm not sure I understand your sentiment - if you wish to avoid announcements or the initial bits of discussions, surely you would be in favor of not cross-posting them? A quick (and probably highly inaccurate) count in my inbox tells me that a little over 700 of about 1200 mails to haskell@ were crossposted to -cafe, and the latter has received 21000 messages in the same time frame. Could we not accept the 2.5% increase in traffic that the remaining 500 messages would mean, and get rid of the cross-postings? -k -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 153 - October 06, 2010
Excellent! Thanks for putting this together. It's nice to have. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News
I'd like to do it. Any tips? -deech On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Malcolm Wallace malcolm.wall...@me.com wrote: I miss the Haskell Weekly News. The most recent issue was published on 8th March 2010. The volunteer who produces it claimed on 27th April that he would be back in action soon, implying that once a couple of weeks' worth of university classes were finished, HWN would return. So in the absence of any visible movement, and it now being Sept, can I appeal for a new volunteer to take over? There is more info here: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/HWN Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News
I miss it too, I've got one person set up (or in the process of setting up) to take it over. I'll be happy to help anyone else get set up (the tools are nontrivial to use at first). The current plan, when I finally get back on my feet, is to have multiple editors trading off weeks/months/ timeframetobedetermined to minimize downtime such as this. I would like to really apologize to the community, I had thought I had the problems fixed, then I ran into some financial difficulties, and couldn't finish fixing the machine. Pride kept me from asking for someone to take over the HWN in my absence, that was silly, you guys would (as I can see) have jumped at the chance to help. Please send me an email if you'd like to help, I have a little tutorial tome I can forward you that will get you set up, and we can work out a schedule with the other editor(s). Having 5 or 6 editors to cycle through will be ideal, I think, that way we have a fair amount of redundancy to prevent situations like this. /Joe On Sep 9, 2010, at 10:35 AM, Malcolm Wallace wrote: I miss the Haskell Weekly News. The most recent issue was published on 8th March 2010. The volunteer who produces it claimed on 27th April that he would be back in action soon, implying that once a couple of weeks' worth of university classes were finished, HWN would return. So in the absence of any visible movement, and it now being Sept, can I appeal for a new volunteer to take over? There is more info here: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/HWN Regards, Malcolm ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
I haven't seen HWN in a while. If there is still community interest, how can we help you with this? -deech On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 2:45 AM, Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com wrote: While I would not be opposed to being paid, I don't think it's at all necessary or even really appropriate. I liken the job to volunteering at a local community action group -- not really the kind of thing you get paid for. That said, if any of you have time machines/time dilation devices in the works, I'm happy to beta test. One more week... /Joe On Apr 28, 2010, at 2:40 AM, David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:47 AM, David Sankel cam...@gmail.com wrote: I'm wondering if a monetary incentive would keep the person who does this work more accountable. I personally would be willing to contribute to continue getting this service. I wonder if there are others as well. I don't think money would be an incentive for someone that has 7 classes worth of finals and papers to do Now a time machine. David. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
2010/6/23 aditya siram aditya.si...@gmail.com: I haven't seen HWN in a while. If there is still community interest, how can we help you with this? It will come back, see this thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/cdw38/hwn_it_will_be_back_promise/ Cheers, Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
Neat. Thanks! -deech On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Vo Minh Thu not...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/6/23 aditya siram aditya.si...@gmail.com: I haven't seen HWN in a while. If there is still community interest, how can we help you with this? It will come back, see this thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/cdw38/hwn_it_will_be_back_promise/ Cheers, Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
Yah, this is gonna sound like a crappy thing -- but my computer is still broken. What I thought was a faulty SATA port seems to actually be an issue with the harddrive, so -- one more week is the punchline. I'm really sorry guys... /Joe On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:13 AM, aditya siram wrote: Neat. Thanks! -deech On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Vo Minh Thu not...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/6/23 aditya siram aditya.si...@gmail.com: I haven't seen HWN in a while. If there is still community interest, how can we help you with this? It will come back, see this thread: http://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/cdw38/hwn_it_will_be_back_promise/ Cheers, Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:47 AM, David Sankel cam...@gmail.com wrote: I'm wondering if a monetary incentive would keep the person who does this work more accountable. I personally would be willing to contribute to continue getting this service. I wonder if there are others as well. I don't think money would be an incentive for someone that has 7 classes worth of finals and papers to do Now a time machine. David. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
While I would not be opposed to being paid, I don't think it's at all necessary or even really appropriate. I liken the job to volunteering at a local community action group -- not really the kind of thing you get paid for. That said, if any of you have time machines/time dilation devices in the works, I'm happy to beta test. One more week... /Joe On Apr 28, 2010, at 2:40 AM, David Virebayre wrote: On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:47 AM, David Sankel cam...@gmail.com wrote: I'm wondering if a monetary incentive would keep the person who does this work more accountable. I personally would be willing to contribute to continue getting this service. I wonder if there are others as well. I don't think money would be an incentive for someone that has 7 classes worth of finals and papers to do Now a time machine. David. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: That said, if any of you have time machines/time dilation devices in the works, I'm happy to beta test. Don't be silly, you don't need more time, you need more _you_ (i.e. clones); after all, nothing ever goes wrong with clones! :p -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
2010/4/28 Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com: Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: That said, if any of you have time machines/time dilation devices in the works, I'm happy to beta test. Don't be silly, you don't need more time, you need more _you_ (i.e. clones); after all, nothing ever goes wrong with clones! :p Don't want to dismiss your comment but about clones and time machines, the only good source of information is their creators, Kelvin and Hobbes. Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
minh thu not...@gmail.com writes: 2010/4/28 Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com: Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: That said, if any of you have time machines/time dilation devices in the works, I'm happy to beta test. Don't be silly, you don't need more time, you need more _you_ (i.e. clones); after all, nothing ever goes wrong with clones! :p Don't want to dismiss your comment but about clones and time machines, the only good source of information is their creators, Kelvin and Hobbes. You mean Calvin? Anyway, the transmogrifier was _much_ better! -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
2010/4/28 Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com: minh thu not...@gmail.com writes: 2010/4/28 Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com: Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: That said, if any of you have time machines/time dilation devices in the works, I'm happy to beta test. Don't be silly, you don't need more time, you need more _you_ (i.e. clones); after all, nothing ever goes wrong with clones! :p Don't want to dismiss your comment but about clones and time machines, the only good source of information is their creators, Kelvin and Hobbes. You mean Calvin? Damn, of course. Anyway, the transmogrifier was _much_ better! Cardboards and abstractions ... seems like programming :) Thu ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
I'm wondering if a monetary incentive would keep the person who does this work more accountable. I personally would be willing to contribute to continue getting this service. I wonder if there are others as well. David On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com wrote: Most certainly, the HWN is easy to put together, it's just a little time consuming, the weekly schedule is just enough under a normal 40-hour courseload. When that number jumps into the high billions (as it did this last semester), it becomes someone more difficult to fit in. HWN will always be HWN, at least as long as I can keep it that way. :D /Joe On Apr 26, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Ivan Miljenovic wrote: On 27 April 2010 10:08, Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com wrote: I hope to get HWN out shortly after it's all finished up. I shall return! As long as you don't end up copying the Gentoo situation where the Gentoo Weekly News died, was resurrected (not sure how many times), was converted to the Gentoo Monthly News to make it simpler, and then became the Gentoo Never News (hey, GNN sounds kinda catchy, though not as good as C :p). -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- David Sankel Sankel Software ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
Hehe, Mostly, at the moment, as I mentioned to Deech, what is holding me up is trying to get HWN and 7 classes worth of finals and papers done. This is the last two weeks of my last semester, but it should be all done soon. I hope to get HWN out shortly after it's all finished up. I shall return! /Joe On Apr 26, 2010, at 7:54 PM, Ivan Miljenovic wrote: On 27 April 2010 08:08, aditya siram aditya.si...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I haven't seen a Haskell Weekly News in a while. Is there anything I can do to help? My guess is do John's marking, etc. for him so that he has some time to do the HWN! We also want him to avoid this situation: http://ro-che.info/ccc/06.html :p -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
On 27 April 2010 10:08, Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com wrote: I hope to get HWN out shortly after it's all finished up. I shall return! As long as you don't end up copying the Gentoo situation where the Gentoo Weekly News died, was resurrected (not sure how many times), was converted to the Gentoo Monthly News to make it simpler, and then became the Gentoo Never News (hey, GNN sounds kinda catchy, though not as good as C :p). -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News?
Most certainly, the HWN is easy to put together, it's just a little time consuming, the weekly schedule is just enough under a normal 40- hour courseload. When that number jumps into the high billions (as it did this last semester), it becomes someone more difficult to fit in. HWN will always be HWN, at least as long as I can keep it that way. :D /Joe On Apr 26, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Ivan Miljenovic wrote: On 27 April 2010 10:08, Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com wrote: I hope to get HWN out shortly after it's all finished up. I shall return! As long as you don't end up copying the Gentoo situation where the Gentoo Weekly News died, was resurrected (not sure how many times), was converted to the Gentoo Monthly News to make it simpler, and then became the Gentoo Never News (hey, GNN sounds kinda catchy, though not as good as C :p). -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 149 - February 08, 2010
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 11:47 AM, jfred...@gmail.com wrote: --- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20100208 Issue 149 - February 08, 2010 --- [snip] [11]Haskell news from the [12]blogosphere. Blog posts from people new to the Haskell community are marked with , be sure to welcome them! I always enjoy catching the HWN; it's a good summary of stuff that I don't necessarily catch (particularly the blog posts), which is particularly useful when I'm still a beginner with the language. That said, I have a minor suggestion: I think the mention of the marker for posts from new people should be omitted if there aren't any such posts in the current edition. It would help avoid confusion for those reading the HWN for the first time. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 142 - December 13, 2009
Hi, First and foremost; thanks for your work on the HWN. It is greatly appreciated. :) Just a quick tip: On Monday 14. December 2009 00.45.29 jfred...@gmail.com wrote: Until next week, Haskeller's, […] why we Haskeller's […] Both of these refer to many “haskellers” – no apostrophe should be put before the ‘s’ as that would mean *one* haskeller having something. (“A haskeller's best friend”.) -- Erlend Hamberg Everything will be ok in the end. If its not ok, its not the end. GPG/PGP: 0xAD3BCF19 45C3 E2E7 86CA ADB7 8DAD 51E7 3A1A F085 AD3B CF19 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 142 - December 13, 2009
English, while my first language (and in fact, only language...) is also my worst language... Thanks for catching the grammar snafu. While I'm here, please note that the issue number is off as well, it's fixed in the version on sequence.complete.org, but not in the email version. /Joe On Dec 13, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Erlend Hamberg wrote: Hi, First and foremost; thanks for your work on the HWN. It is greatly appreciated. :) Just a quick tip: On Monday 14. December 2009 00.45.29 jfred...@gmail.com wrote: Until next week, Haskeller's, […] why we Haskeller's […] Both of these refer to many “haskellers” – no apostrophe should be put before the ‘s’ as that would mean *one* haskeller having something. (“A haskeller's best friend”.) -- Erlend Hamberg Everything will be ok in the end. If its not ok, its not the end. GPG/PGP: 0xAD3BCF19 45C3 E2E7 86CA ADB7 8DAD 51E7 3A1A F085 AD3B CF19 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 138 - November 07, 2009
On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 10:04:45PM -0800, jfred...@gmail.com wrote: * mauke: @unpl const (flip const) lambdabot: (\ _ c d - d) I didn't get this one, is it just because lambdabot didn't change 'c' to an underscore? Thanks for the HWN, as always :), -- Felipe. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 138 - November 07, 2009
On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Felipe Lessa felipe.le...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 10:04:45PM -0800, jfred...@gmail.com wrote: * mauke: @unpl const (flip const) lambdabot: (\ _ c d - d) I didn't get this one, is it just because lambdabot didn't change 'c' to an underscore? We were experimenting with @pl and yes, that's part of it, but it's also that it skipped a entirely in this case. Just struck me as weird. -- Svein Ove Aas ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 134 - October 10, 2009
Hi, Could/should the Haskell Weekly News be posted to the beginners list as well? I normally don't follow haskell-cafe (too much traffic and generally above my level I must admit...), but I like to follow what's going on in the Haskell community. Patrick On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:47 AM, jfred...@gmail.com wrote: --- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20091010 Issue 134 - October 10, 2009 --- Welcome to issue 134 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. What with Don Stewart's [2]call to [3]arms to lead Haskell to conquest over (E)DSL-land, I've once again tried to highlight discussion of EDSL's this week. Fortunately, it was actually more difficult choosing what _not_ to include this week, since there was so much discussion about DSLs and Syntax extensions (a related notion, in my opinion). Also, this week Bryan O'Sullivan put his Criterion Library to good use on the `text` package, leading to [4]code which is more than ten times faster than before! With all this fantastic news, I won't hold you up any longer, Haskellers, the Haskell Weekly News! Announcements CfPart: FMICS 2009, 2-3 November 2009, Final Call. FMICS 2009 workshop chair [5]announced the final call for particpaction for FMICS 2009 ICFP videos now available. Wouter Swierstra [6]announced the availablity of videos from the International Conference on Functional Programming (ICFP) GPipe-1.0.0: A functional graphics API for programmable GPUs. Tobias Bexelius [7]announced the first release of GPie, a functional graphics API for programmable GPUs. text 0.5, a major revision of the Unicode text library. Bryan O'Sullivan [8]announced a new, major version of the text package. New API features, and huge improvments in speed, as Bryan says, 'Get it while it's fresh on Hackage, folks!' vty-ui 0.2. Jonathan Daugherty [9]announced a new version of the vty-ui package, with fewer bugs, more widgets, and cleaner code due to new more powerful abstractions. htzaar-0.0.1. Tom Hawkins [10]announced HTZAAR, a Haskell implementation of TZAAR Graphalyze-0.8.0.0 and SourceGraph-0.5.5.0. Ivan Lazar Miljenovic [11]announced To keep this editor happy, Ivan released two new packaged in one announcement. This time, he's added Legend support to Graphalyze, but also many new changes to SourceGraph, including a legend so you can see what all the symbols mean, Better color support, and much more. TxtSushi 0.4.0. Keith Sheppard [12]announced a new version of TxtSushi, a set of command line utilities for processing CSV and TSV files. Discussion Applicative do? Philippa Cowderoy [13]asked about a `do` like syntax for Applicative functors. How to add use custom preprocessor in cabal. Bernd Brassel [14]asked how to add a custom preprocessor to the build chain of a cabal file. On DSLs - one last time. Gunther Schmidt [15]summarized his impressions on al the recent discussion of DSLs What is a DSL? Oleg [16]offered some insight into different [17]properties that can be part of a single tagless framework. He also pointed to some slides and other materials such as a website [18]here and slides [19]here about DSL implementations and definitions. What is a DSL? Gunther Schmidt [20]posed the question, 'What is a DSL', and with some further questions added by yours truly, a lively discussion about the definition of a DSL ensued. Finally tagless - stuck with implementation of 'lam'. Gunther Schmidt [21]asked another question about Finally Tagless DSLs and resolving an issue with the implementation of 'lam' Blog noise [22]Haskell news from the [23]blogosphere. Blog posts from people new to the Haskell community are marked with , be sure to welcome them! * Darcs: [24]darcs weekly news #43. * JP Moresmau: [25]What client for an Haskell Multi Player Game?. * Mikael Vejdemo Johansson (Syzygy-): [26][MATH198] Third lecture is up. * Bryan O'Sullivan: [27]Announcing a major revision of the Haskell text library. * Eric Kow (kowey): [28]darcs hashed-storage work merged (woo!). * David Amos: [29]Symmetries of PG(n,Fq). * The GHC Team: [30]Parallelism /= Concurrency. * Nefigah: [31]Fake World Haskell. Nefigah, a recent addition to the community, has been working through RWH, and is providing some excellent examples. Though, This editor prefers the title 'Real Life Haskell' as opposed to his choice. * Tom Schrijvers: [32]Release 0.6 of Monadic Constraint Programming. * Neil Brown: [33]Concurrency Can Be Deterministic (But The Type System Doesn't Know It). * Clint Moore: [34]Curiously Parallel. * Galois, Inc: [35]Tech
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 134 - October 10, 2009
Why don't you subscribe to haskell? It's much lower volume, and I think it's a better option than taking -beginners off-topic. --Max On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Patrick LeBoutillier patrick.leboutill...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Could/should the Haskell Weekly News be posted to the beginners list as well? I normally don't follow haskell-cafe (too much traffic and generally above my level I must admit...), but I like to follow what's going on in the Haskell community. Patrick ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 134 - October 10, 2009
I'm happy to tack it on to the sendout, but as others have mentioned, subscription to haskell-general (to use GManes nomenclature) is probably the better option. -beginners, iirc, is principally for questions, not community content. Is this the consensus over there? I'll do whatever you folks decide on... /Joe On Oct 11, 2009, at 8:10 AM, Patrick LeBoutillier wrote: Hi, Could/should the Haskell Weekly News be posted to the beginners list as well? I normally don't follow haskell-cafe (too much traffic and generally above my level I must admit...), but I like to follow what's going on in the Haskell community. Patrick On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 3:47 AM, jfred...@gmail.com wrote: --- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20091010 Issue 134 - October 10, 2009 --- Welcome to issue 134 of HWN, a newsletter covering developments in the [1]Haskell community. What with Don Stewart's [2]call to [3]arms to lead Haskell to conquest over (E)DSL-land, I've once again tried to highlight discussion of EDSL's this week. Fortunately, it was actually more difficult choosing what _not_ to include this week, since there was so much discussion about DSLs and Syntax extensions (a related notion, in my opinion). Also, this week Bryan O'Sullivan put his Criterion Library to good use on the `text` package, leading to [4]code which is more than ten times faster than before! With all this fantastic news, I won't hold you up any longer, Haskellers, the Haskell Weekly News! Announcements CfPart: FMICS 2009, 2-3 November 2009, Final Call. FMICS 2009 workshop chair [5]announced the final call for particpaction for FMICS 2009 ICFP videos now available. Wouter Swierstra [6]announced the availablity of videos from the International Conference on Functional Programming (ICFP) GPipe-1.0.0: A functional graphics API for programmable GPUs. Tobias Bexelius [7]announced the first release of GPie, a functional graphics API for programmable GPUs. text 0.5, a major revision of the Unicode text library. Bryan O'Sullivan [8]announced a new, major version of the text package. New API features, and huge improvments in speed, as Bryan says, 'Get it while it's fresh on Hackage, folks!' vty-ui 0.2. Jonathan Daugherty [9]announced a new version of the vty-ui package, with fewer bugs, more widgets, and cleaner code due to new more powerful abstractions. htzaar-0.0.1. Tom Hawkins [10]announced HTZAAR, a Haskell implementation of TZAAR Graphalyze-0.8.0.0 and SourceGraph-0.5.5.0. Ivan Lazar Miljenovic [11]announced To keep this editor happy, Ivan released two new packaged in one announcement. This time, he's added Legend support to Graphalyze, but also many new changes to SourceGraph, including a legend so you can see what all the symbols mean, Better color support, and much more. TxtSushi 0.4.0. Keith Sheppard [12]announced a new version of TxtSushi, a set of command line utilities for processing CSV and TSV files. Discussion Applicative do? Philippa Cowderoy [13]asked about a `do` like syntax for Applicative functors. How to add use custom preprocessor in cabal. Bernd Brassel [14]asked how to add a custom preprocessor to the build chain of a cabal file. On DSLs - one last time. Gunther Schmidt [15]summarized his impressions on al the recent discussion of DSLs What is a DSL? Oleg [16]offered some insight into different [17]properties that can be part of a single tagless framework. He also pointed to some slides and other materials such as a website [18]here and slides [19]here about DSL implementations and definitions. What is a DSL? Gunther Schmidt [20]posed the question, 'What is a DSL', and with some further questions added by yours truly, a lively discussion about the definition of a DSL ensued. Finally tagless - stuck with implementation of 'lam'. Gunther Schmidt [21]asked another question about Finally Tagless DSLs and resolving an issue with the implementation of 'lam' Blog noise [22]Haskell news from the [23]blogosphere. Blog posts from people new to the Haskell community are marked with , be sure to welcome them! * Darcs: [24]darcs weekly news #43. * JP Moresmau: [25]What client for an Haskell Multi Player Game?. * Mikael Vejdemo Johansson (Syzygy-): [26][MATH198] Third lecture is up. * Bryan O'Sullivan: [27]Announcing a major revision of the Haskell text library. * Eric Kow (kowey): [28]darcs hashed-storage work merged (woo!). * David Amos: [29]Symmetries of PG(n,Fq). * The GHC Team: [30]Parallelism /= Concurrency. * Nefigah: [31]Fake World Haskell. Nefigah, a recent addition to the community, has been working through RWH, and is
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 134 - October 10, 2009
Patrick LeBoutillier wrote: Could/should the Haskell Weekly News be posted to the beginners list as well? I normally don't follow haskell-cafe (too much traffic and generally above my level I must admit...), but I like to follow what's going on in the Haskell community. I find reading the HWN is a lot is a lot more convenient with a web browser, you don't have to jump up and down the document to find the links. There is also an RSS feed (http://sequence.complete.org/node/feed) to keep you up to date. Cheers Ben ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 131 - September 19, 2009
On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 03:11:04PM -0400, Joe Fredette wrote: Ahh, I found the issue. I generated this on the 18th, the software makes files of the form yearmonthdate.ext, so when Brent uploaded the hwn for me, the link it generates is to the date it was generated on, not the date it was published on. Actually, it's even simpler than that, the sequence.complete.org/hwn/ URL is actually something you choose when you post it, so this is my fault for giving it the wrong date. You can generate it on whatever day you like, and until you can post them yourself I'll just be careful about matching the URL to the date it was generated. -Brent ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 131 - September 19, 2009
Joe Fredette wrote: Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20090918 Issue 131 - September 18, 2009 Does anybody else get page not found for this URL? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 131 - September 19, 2009
Ahh, I found the issue. I generated this on the 18th, the software makes files of the form yearmonthdate.ext, so when Brent uploaded the hwn for me, the link it generates is to the date it was generated on, not the date it was published on. The appropriate link is http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20090919 In the future, I'll have to make sure to do the `make` on the date of publication, but ATM I don't have access to the sequence.complete.org to post the hwns myself. So I try to get the issue to Brent a day early. It shouldn't happen again, thanks for catching it. /Joe On Sep 20, 2009, at 3:06 PM, Andrew Coppin wrote: http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20090918 ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 114 - April 17, 2009
Brent Yorgey wrote: The [2]5th Haskell Hackathon is underway in Utrecht! Happy Haskell hacking! An early HWN this week since I will be traveling this weekend (but not, unfortunately, to the Hackathon). Yes! It's been a good day so far; there are lots of projects being worked on. You can follow the [1]latest news on Twitter; there are also [2]some pictures online already. [1] http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23hac5 [2] http://martijn.van.steenbergen.nl/journal/hac5-pt-1/ Groetjes from Utrecht, Martijn. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 111 - March 28, 2009
conal: Recursion is the goto of functional programming BTW, I certainly did not mean to take credit for this wonderful quote. I don't know the origin. I first heard it from Erik Meijer. - Conal ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 111 - March 28, 2009
This paper from 1994: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.36.5611 begins point 1.1 with exactly that sentence. It doesn't seem to be quoted there, so one can assume this is the original source of that sentence. I'm not sure dough. Regards Christopher Skrzętnicki 2009/3/28 Conal Elliott co...@conal.net: conal: Recursion is the goto of functional programming BTW, I certainly did not mean to take credit for this wonderful quote. I don't know the origin. I first heard it from Erik Meijer. - Conal ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 111 - March 28, 2009
The quote has been around since at least the early 80s, but I don't know who it's from. 2009/3/28 Krzysztof Skrzętnicki gte...@gmail.com: This paper from 1994: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.36.5611 begins point 1.1 with exactly that sentence. It doesn't seem to be quoted there, so one can assume this is the original source of that sentence. I'm not sure dough. Regards Christopher Skrzętnicki 2009/3/28 Conal Elliott co...@conal.net: conal: Recursion is the goto of functional programming BTW, I certainly did not mean to take credit for this wonderful quote. I don't know the origin. I first heard it from Erik Meijer. - Conal ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 92 - November 8, 2008
Brent Yorgey wrote: --- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20081108 Issue 92 - November 08, 2008 --- GHC version 6.10.1. Ian Lynagh [2]announced the release of [3]GHC version 6.10.1! This new major release features a number of significant changes, including wild-card patterns, punning, and field disambiguation in record syntax; generalised quasi-quotes; generalised SQL-like list comprehensions; view patterns; a complete reimplementation of type families; parallel garbage collection; a new extensible exception framework; a more user-friendly API; included Data Parallel Haskell (DPH); and more! See [4]the full release notes for more information. Were it not for this message, I might never have noticed! :-} (Presumably the main announcement was on one of the other Haskell lists...) Anyway, I don't see it anywhere in the release notes, but I get the vibe that type families are supposed to be fully working now. Is that correct? If so, why no mention anywhere? Also, the release notes tantelisingly hint that the long-awaited parallel-array stuff is finally working in this release, but I can't find any actual description of how to use it. All the DPH stuff seems on the wiki was last updated many months ago. You would have thought that such a big deal would be well-documented. It must have taken enough effort to get it to work! You'd think somebody would want to shout about it... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 92 - November 8, 2008
Anyway, I don't see it anywhere in the release notes, but I get the vibe that type families are supposed to be fully working now. Is that correct? If so, why no mention anywhere? Type families have been completely reimplemented and should be stable now, but there are some bugs - notably equality constraints in superclasses are not supported in GHC 6.10.1, i.e. class (F a ~ b) = C a b where type F a As indicated by this bug report: http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/2715 And here: http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Indexed_types#Equality_constraints Also, the release notes tantelisingly hint that the long-awaited parallel-array stuff is finally working in this release, but I can't find any actual description of how to use it. All the DPH stuff seems on the wiki was last updated many months ago. You would have thought that such a big deal would be well-documented. It must have taken enough effort to get it to work! You'd think somebody would want to shout about it... I put up a DPH version of the binarytrees benchmark in the shootout: http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Shootout/Parallel/BinaryTreesDPH There are some notes there; the only documentation I really used was the documentation built by the GHC build process on the 'dph-*' libraries (you can see them in 6.10 by just doing 'ghc-pkg list' and looking through it.) I was thinking of porting more of the parallel shootout entries to use DPH, but I'm busy right now - results could be interesting. Austin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
Richard A. O'Keefe wrote: On 14 Sep 2008, at 10:59 pm, Rafael Almeida wrote: One thing have always bugged me: how do you prove that you have correctly proven something? This really misses the point of trying to formally verify something. That point is that you almost certainly have NOT. By the time you get a theorem prover to accept your specification, you have (a) gone through a couple of rounds of redesign (before writing the code!) and now have something really clear (because the prover is too dumb to understand subtle stuff) (b) just done a lot of testing on the design that was finally accepted. I mean, when I write a code I'm formaly stating what I want to happen and bugs happen. If I try to prove some part of the code I write more formal text (which generally isn't even checked by a compiler); I'm sorry? What kind of half-arsed formal specification is NOT checked? None of the specification tools I've played with (I really wish there were a PVS course I could attend in NZ) can truthfully be described as not checked. I do not know. I'm not experienced on the field and I was under the impression you'd write your code then get a pen and a paper and try to prove some property of it. Someone mentioned coq, I read a bit about it, but it looked really foreign to me. The idea is to somehow prove somethings based only on the specification and, after that, you write your code, based on your proof? If so, what's the difference of that and writing the same program twice in two different languages? Isn't that kind of what's going on anyways? Symbolic model checking tools effectivley _are_ testing tools; what you normally get from them is not a cheery that's fine boss but a snarky you forgot about this possible input didn't you, idiot! Do they operate with Haskell functions directly? I mean, can I somehow import the functions I wrote in Haskell and try to prove properties on it using those tools you talk about? how can I be sure that my proof doesn't contain bugs? You can't. What you CAN be sure of is that your previous proof attempts DID contain bugs. Lots of them. At least *those* ones are gone. Let's face it, you can't be *sure* that you aren't a brain in a jar being systematically deceived by a demon. (Read Descartes.) In fact, you can usually be CERTAIN that you haven't proved the validity of your whole system, because you usually haven't tried. Formal methods are a risk reduction tool. You pick some part of the system which has a special need for reliability, isolate it, model it, check the model for consistency, specify operations on it, prove something about them, and you learn a heck of a lot by doing so. What you can't eliminate is the possibility that something nasty is lurking in the BIOS of your computer specifically watching out for your code so it can sabotage it. Several times in my programming career I have encountered perfectly correct code that malfunctioned because of a broken compiler (well ok, in one case it was a broken assembler). Why would it make my program less error-prone? Is there any article that tries to compare heavy testing with FM? Lots of them. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.18.2475 might make a good start. The idea that the FORTEST researchers share is that formal methods can *help* testing. Indeed, QuickCheck basically _is_ an 'automatic tests from specifications' tool, one of many that have been built over the years. If you stop thinking of formal methods as verifying finished written programs and more as some mix of design for checkability (so that bugs are less likely to be written into the code in the first place) or as testing for specifications it may make more sense to you. Hm. I've used quickcheck, I find it really nice. It was definetely the tool I had in mind when I was arguing about tests being enough to 'proof' things. Anyhow, I'll take a look on that article, maybe it already answers lots of the questions I've raised here :-). ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:05:11 -0300 Rafael C. de Almeida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do not know. I'm not experienced on the field and I was under the impression you'd write your code then get a pen and a paper and try to prove some property of it. In fairness, that's how it's often done in universities (where correctness doesn't really matter to most people - no offense intended). But once you start using software to write formal proofs, it is quite easy in principle to get a computer to check your proof for you. Many academics do not use formal proof tools because (a) they are not aware of them, or (b) they see them as too hard to learn, or (c) they see them as too time-consuming to use, or (d) they don't see the point. Hopefully this situation will gradually change. Someone mentioned coq, I read a bit about it, but it looked really foreign to me. The idea is to somehow prove somethings based only on the specification and, after that, you write your code, based on your proof? No. There are 3 main ways of using Coq: 1. Code extraction. You write your code in Coq itself, prove that it meets your specification, and then use the Extraction commands to convert the Coq code into Haskell (throwing away all the proof bits, which aren't relevant at runtime). 2. Verification condition generation (VCGen) - you write your code in some ordinary language, say Haskell, and annotate it with specifications. Then you run a VCGen tool over it and it tries to prove the trivial things, and spits out the rest as verification conditions in the language of Coq, ready to be proved in Coq. 3. A combination of both of the above approaches - you write your code in Coq, ignoring the proof at first, and then verification conditions (called obligations in Coq) are generated. This is experimental. The commands that begin with Program in Coq are used for this. None of these involve writing the same code twice in different languages. -- Robin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
On Sep 15, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Robin Green wrote: In fairness, that's how it's often done in universities (where correctness doesn't really matter to most people - no offense intended). But once you start using software to write formal proofs, it is quite easy in principle to get a computer to check your proof for you. Many academics do not use formal proof tools because (a) they are not aware of them, or (b) they see them as too hard to learn, or (c) they see them as too time-consuming to use, or (d) they don't see the point. Hopefully this situation will gradually change. Fortunately, I think it has been changing rather rapidly lately. In the last year or so, tools like Coq and Isabelle have become increasingly popular. Several universities now have classes: http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~siek/7000/spring07/ http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~apt/cs510coq/ad http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~emc/15-820A/ http://www.cs.harvard.edu/~adamc/cpdt/ http://adam.chlipala.net/itp/ http://cl.cse.wustl.edu/classes/cse545/ There's a competition to solve various programming-languge-related problems using automated proof checkers: http://alliance.seas.upenn.edu/~plclub/cgi-bin/poplmark/index.php?title=The_POPLmark_Challenge A tutorial at the last POPL conference: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~plclub/popl08-tutorial/ And a number of projects with mechanical proofs: http://www.chargueraud.org/arthur/research/index.php http://compcert.inria.fr/doc/index.html http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~siek/segt_typesafe.pdf http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~siek/pubs/pubs/2005/siek05:_cpp_isar.pdf http://ece-www.colorado.edu/~siek/gradual-obj.pdf http://adam.chlipala.net/papers/ http://pauillac.inria.fr/~xleroy/proofs.html http://www.kennknowles.com/research/knowles-flanagan.draft.07.explicit.pdf I'm sure I've left out many of the most relevant examples, but this is a bit of the flavor of the recent work in the area. Aaron ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:43 PM, Robin Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:05:11 -0300 Rafael C. de Almeida [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone mentioned coq, I read a bit about it, but it looked really foreign to me. The idea is to somehow prove somethings based only on the specification and, after that, you write your code, based on your proof? No. There are 3 main ways of using Coq: 1. Code extraction. You write your code in Coq itself, prove that it meets your specification, and then use the Extraction commands to convert the Coq code into Haskell (throwing away all the proof bits, which aren't relevant at runtime). 2. Verification condition generation (VCGen) - you write your code in some ordinary language, say Haskell, and annotate it with specifications. Then you run a VCGen tool over it and it tries to prove the trivial things, and spits out the rest as verification conditions in the language of Coq, ready to be proved in Coq. That seemed to me the most interesting way of using it. After all, I already like writing my programs in Haskell, not sure if I'd like Coq better for programming. Also, that could work with code I've already written. Do you know of a VCGen tool that works well with Haskell and some other language such as Coq (doesn't need to be coq)? A quick search on google didn't give me much. 3. A combination of both of the above approaches - you write your code in Coq, ignoring the proof at first, and then verification conditions (called obligations in Coq) are generated. This is experimental. The commands that begin with Program in Coq are used for this. None of these involve writing the same code twice in different languages. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
On 2008 Sep 14, at 1:24, Daryoush Mehrtash wrote: What I am trying to figure out is that say on the code for the IRC bot that is show here http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Roll_your_own_IRC_bot/Source What would theorem proofs do for me? Assurance of correct operation; for example, a mathematically provable lack of security holes, assuming you can describe its proper operation in terms of suitable theorems (which, for a simple bot like that, is not so difficult). -- brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [EMAIL PROTECTED] system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [EMAIL PROTECTED] electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon universityKF8NH ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Thomas M. DuBuisson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What would theorem proofs do for me? Imagine if you used SmallCheck to exhastively test the ENTIRE problem space for a given property. Now imagine you used your brain to show the programs correctness before the heat death of the universe... Proofs are not features, nor are they code. What you prove is entirely up to you and might not be what you think. Take, for example, the issue of proving a sort function works correctly [1]. I'm not saying this to discourage complete proofs, but just cautioning you that proving something as unimportant and IO laden as an IRC bot probably isn't the best example. Do see the linked PDF, and [2] as well. Oh, and for examples where people should have used FM, search for 'ariane 1996' or the gulf war patriot missle failure TomMD [1] http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mjcg/Teaching/SpecVer1/Lectures/pslides07x4.pdf [2] http://users.lava.net/~newsham/formal/reverse/ One thing have always bugged me: how do you prove that you have correctly proven something? I mean, when I write a code I'm formaly stating what I want to happen and bugs happen. If I try to prove some part of the code I write more formal text (which generally isn't even checked by a compiler); how can I be sure that my proof doesn't contain bugs? Why would it make my program less error-prone? Is there any article that tries to compare heavy testing with FM? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
2008/9/14 Rafael Almeida [EMAIL PROTECTED]: One thing have always bugged me: how do you prove that you have correctly proven something? I mean, when I write a code I'm formaly stating what I want to happen and bugs happen. If I try to prove some part of the code I write more formal text (which generally isn't even checked by a compiler); how can I be sure that my proof doesn't contain bugs? Why would it make my program less error-prone? Is there any article that tries to compare heavy testing with FM? Well, that's where formal prover enter the picture : when you prove something with Coq, you can be reasonably sure that your proof is correct. And FM brings absolute certitude a propriety is verified by your program whereas testing however heavy can only check this property on a finite set of inputs (using randomly generated input help alleviate the risk of blind spot but is still limited). -- Jedaï ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
On Sunday 14 September 2008 6:59:06 am Rafael Almeida wrote: One thing have always bugged me: how do you prove that you have correctly proven something? I mean, when I write a code I'm formaly stating what I want to happen and bugs happen. If I try to prove some part of the code I write more formal text (which generally isn't even checked by a compiler); how can I be sure that my proof doesn't contain bugs? Why would it make my program less error-prone? Is there any article that tries to compare heavy testing with FM? This isn't really a problem if you're programming in a language in which the proofs of program correctness are checked by the compiler/what have you, as Chaddaï has already said. In that case, it's similar to asking, how do I know my Haskell programs are actually type correct? Barring bugs in the tools (which, in the ideal case, are built on a simple enough foundation to be confidently proven correct by hand), it's not so much a concern. A more difficult question is: how do I know that the formal specification I've written for my program is the right one? Tools can fairly easily check that your programs conform to a given specification, but they cannot (to my knowledge) check that your specification says exactly what you want it to say. Of course, this is no worse than the case with test suites, since one can similarly ask, how can I be sure the tests check for the properties/behavior that I actually want? -- Dan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
dmehrtash: I have a newbie question Does theorem proofs have a use for an application? Take for example the IRC bot example ([1]http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Roll_your_own_IRC_bot) listed below. Is there any insight to be gained by theorem proofs (as in COQ) into the app? Some customers require very high level of assurance that there are no bugs in the code you ship to them. Theorem proving is one great way to make those assurances. -- Don P.S. publicity In fact, it's the subject of a talk on Tuesday, http://www.galois.com/blog/2008/09/11/theorem-proving-for-verification/ /publicity ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
What I am trying to figure out is that say on the code for the IRC bot that is show here http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Roll_your_own_IRC_bot/Source What would theorem proofs do for me? Daryoush On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 9:29 PM, Don Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: dmehrtash: I have a newbie question Does theorem proofs have a use for an application? Take for example the IRC bot example ([1]http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Roll_your_own_IRC_bot) listed below. Is there any insight to be gained by theorem proofs (as in COQ) into the app? Some customers require very high level of assurance that there are no bugs in the code you ship to them. Theorem proving is one great way to make those assurances. -- Don P.S. publicity In fact, it's the subject of a talk on Tuesday, http://www.galois.com/blog/2008/09/11/theorem-proving-for-verification/ /publicity ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: Issue 85 - September 13, 2008
What would theorem proofs do for me? Imagine if you used SmallCheck to exhastively test the ENTIRE problem space for a given property. Now imagine you used your brain to show the programs correctness before the heat death of the universe... Proofs are not features, nor are they code. What you prove is entirely up to you and might not be what you think. Take, for example, the issue of proving a sort function works correctly [1]. I'm not saying this to discourage complete proofs, but just cautioning you that proving something as unimportant and IO laden as an IRC bot probably isn't the best example. Do see the linked PDF, and [2] as well. Oh, and for examples where people should have used FM, search for 'ariane 1996' or the gulf war patriot missle failure TomMD [1] http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mjcg/Teaching/SpecVer1/Lectures/pslides07x4.pdf [2] http://users.lava.net/~newsham/formal/reverse/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News - February 10, 2008
On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 02:24:19PM +0100, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote: Am Montag, 11. Februar 2008 02:09 schrieb Don Stewart: [???] * Imlib 0.1.1. Uploaded by Cale Gibbard. [120]Imlib: Added by CaleGibbard, Sun Jan 13 22:26:59 PST 2008.. [???] * haddock 2.0.0.0. Uploaded by David Waern. [147]haddock: Added by DavidWaern [???] What's the reason for these entries not having a sensible synopsis? Because the hackageDB RSS feed he's using doesn't include a synopsis, for no particular reason. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News - February 10, 2008
Am Montag, 11. Februar 2008 02:09 schrieb Don Stewart: […] * Imlib 0.1.1. Uploaded by Cale Gibbard. [120]Imlib: Added by CaleGibbard, Sun Jan 13 22:26:59 PST 2008.. […] * haddock 2.0.0.0. Uploaded by David Waern. [147]haddock: Added by DavidWaern […] What's the reason for these entries not having a sensible synopsis? […] Best wishes, Wolfgang ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: May 07, 2007
--- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/hwn/20070507 Issue 62 - May 07, 2007 --- Chaos. Andrew Coppin [29]announced chaos, a fun image generating mystery program. 29. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/22177 Oh. LOL! I'm not used to being news... But hey, if it amuses more people this way, it's all good. ;-) (Hmm... maybe I should put more of my stuff in Darcs.) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: March 12, 2007
One of my editors at somepoint, told me that he had asked his lawyers about this (i.e. don't think this is anything like real legal advice), and the answer was 'If you publish an article and advise someone that the way to do something is X, no judge will be happy if you sue them for taking your advice. ' So my editors advice was, if you want to keep it a secret, don't publish. My take, if the code isn't published, it's advertising, not research. On 3/13/07, Donald Bruce Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ithika: Quoth Conrad Parker, nevermore, Besides, tshirtIf it's not open source, it's not computer science/tshirt. Science demands repeatable results, computer science demands literate programming. The solution is not to shy away from including code, or else the IP lawyers have won, science is banned and we get plunged into another Dark Age. I'm glad some people agree. I've been reading the reddit comments for that blog post with a mixture of car-crash fascination and horror, where the prevailing opinions are a mixture of: * computer scientists can't program, duh! * computer scientists aren't in academia for the advancement of knowledge, it's all about getting their name known * you just want to ride on the coat-tails of other people's brilliance; or, you're too lazy/stupid to do the work yourself * if you can't recreate it from the description in the paper then it shouldn't have been published The final point is the only one with any merit at all, and only then in an ideal world. High level papers are not simple to translate into code, even if the resulting code is quite simple. (How long did it take for the monad to make it into programming?) It's sad that there's such a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism even in computer science/software engineering. So I'd like to take the opportunity to thank all the exciting academic work that gets published with code that I can read (even better when they are mixed in one literate document). And also all those contributors to The Monad Reader, who help to bridge that gap for the rest of us. I too read the comments with a sense of frustration. It is encouraging, somewhat, that in the original article, the Haskell paper-writing community was actually singled out as one that does tend to operate in an open source manner, and to actually produce code. Free the lambdas! -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: January 02, 2007
On Tue, 2 Jan 2007, Donald Bruce Stewart wrote: Dimensional: Statically checked physical dimensions. Björn Buckwalter [4]announced version 0.1 of [5]Dimensional, a module for statically checked physical dimensions. The module facilitates calculations with physical quantities while statically preventing e.g. addition of quantities with differing physical dimensions. 4. http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general/14691 5. http://code.google.com/p/dimensional/ How is it related to this one: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Dimensionalized_numbers ? It should certainly be mentioned on http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Physical_units http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Libraries_and_tools/Mathematics#Physical_units ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: December 12, 2006
On 12/12/06, Donald Bruce Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/ Issue 53 - December 12, 2006 --- [snip] Quotes of the Week * Jim Apple: The Haskell list probably has the widest 'knowledge bandwidth' of any mailing list I've ever seen, from total beginner questions to highly abstruse stuff which probably represents the cutting edge of PhD research. All are answered with detail and good humour. I like that quote, but I'm an American, so I think they're answered with good humor. The quote looks like it is from http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2006/03/haskell_vs_ocamlwhich_do_you_p.html#comment-23152 , and the attributions are actually beneath, rather than above, the quotes. The true author is Jeremy O'Donoghue. Jim ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell Weekly News: December 12, 2006
jbapple+haskell-cafe: On 12/12/06, Donald Bruce Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Haskell Weekly News http://sequence.complete.org/ Issue 53 - December 12, 2006 --- [snip] Quotes of the Week * Jim Apple: The Haskell list probably has the widest 'knowledge bandwidth' of any mailing list I've ever seen, from total beginner questions to highly abstruse stuff which probably represents the cutting edge of PhD research. All are answered with detail and good humour. I like that quote, but I'm an American, so I think they're answered with good humor. The quote looks like it is from http://www.oreillynet.com/mac/blog/2006/03/haskell_vs_ocamlwhich_do_you_p.html#comment-23152 , and the attributions are actually beneath, rather than above, the quotes. The true author is Jeremy O'Donoghue. Ah sorry, Jim! My mistake. And apologies to Jeremy too. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
