Re: Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
Please note that it may be hard to make a print out of a wikibook. You might want to use Docbook/XML or Latex in a darcs repo- sitory instead. On Mon, Dec 11, 2006 at 03:23:13PM -0500, Matt Revelle wrote: Sorry, wasn't sure I had clearly expressed that it's possible to have an open book end up as a dead-tree book. Either way, I'm interested in helping. On 12/11/06, Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It matters to me; if I'm going to put work into this, then that's what I want the result to be. I'm happy, of course, for projects that I am not involved in to use whatever publishing mechanisms that the people involved in those projects prefer. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
A quick search turned up Lulu (http://www.lulu.com/). From the Lulu site: Publish and sell easily within minutes. No set-up fees. No minimum order. Keep control of the rights. Set your own price. Each product is printed as it is ordered. No excess inventory. Looks like they offer hardcover and paperback and are fine with open-source books. More info at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lulu.com On 12/11/06, Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/11/06, Andrew Wagner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think there are some great ideas here, and it would be a fantastic project to do as a community, via a wikibook. I, for one, have been studying haskell for several months, and am just starting to see a little bit of light when it comes to monads. I think it would be beneficial to work through a non-trivial construction of a new monad, and the larger examples given would be good opportunities to do that. If you (or anyone else who's been participating in the discussion, or anyone else) would like to do a wikibook, that would be great. Personally, I'd like to write / be involved in organizing the writing of a dead-trees book. (In theory, it could be both, but it seems to me like short of being Larry Lessig, there's not really a way to get a publisher to publish something that's already released under a free documentation license -- but correct me if I'm wrong.) Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt There's no money in poetry, but there's no poetry in money, either. --Robert Graves ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
On 12/11/06, Matt Revelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A quick search turned up Lulu (http://www.lulu.com/). From the Lulu site: Publish and sell easily within minutes. No set-up fees. No minimum order. Keep control of the rights. Set your own price. Each product is printed as it is ordered. No excess inventory. Looks like they offer hardcover and paperback and are fine with open-source books. I suppose I should have clarified that I meant a dead-trees book with a real publisher, but again, if other people want to organize something different based on this thread, they should go ahead! I can only do so much :-) Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt ...There is no mystery; there is only paradox, the incontrovertible union of contradictory truths. -- Edward Abbey ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
Well, perhaps if nothing else, we could use a wikibook to collaboratively work on the structure of such a book, and then from that you could publish a real book. I don't really know the legal issues, though. I am thinking of several books though which have been written and released both as full paper books, and as free digital books. Could we do something similar? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
On 12/11/06, Andrew Wagner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, perhaps if nothing else, we could use a wikibook to collaboratively work on the structure of such a book, and then from that you could publish a real book. I don't really know the legal issues, though. I am thinking of several books though which have been written and released both as full paper books, and as free digital books. Could we do something similar? I definitely think using a wiki to work on the book would be a good idea. I just wouldn't want to imply that that meant it would necessarily be a public wiki or that it would be around forever. The legal issues are basically that publishers don't want to publish books that people can get for free off the web (whether or not you agree with this logic). There are exceptions to this, like Lessig's _Free Culture_, but it's my impression that they usually involve authors who have enough sway that publishers will let them get away with whatever they want. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Who needs reasons when you've got the root password?[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
What do you mean by real publisher? As long as the quality of the final product is good, does it really matter what publishing company has their name stamped on it? I'm not sure about Lulu and distribution, but there's also BookSurge (http://www.booksurge.com) which is owned by Amazon. From their distribution page: Through BookSurge, your book is given a unique ISBN (a sales distribution number) and is made available for sale through the world's largest distribution channels. Our authors receive the highest royalty rates in the industry, without smoke and mirror accounting - you receive royalties as a direct percentage of your book's list price on all retail and wholesale channels. There are plenty of details to figure out, but I wouldn't dimiss the open, electronic book - dead-tree book idea just yet. On 12/11/06, Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/11/06, Matt Revelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A quick search turned up Lulu (http://www.lulu.com/). From the Lulu site: Publish and sell easily within minutes. No set-up fees. No minimum order. Keep control of the rights. Set your own price. Each product is printed as it is ordered. No excess inventory. Looks like they offer hardcover and paperback and are fine with open-source books. I suppose I should have clarified that I meant a dead-trees book with a real publisher, but again, if other people want to organize something different based on this thread, they should go ahead! I can only do so much :-) Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt ...There is no mystery; there is only paradox, the incontrovertible union of contradictory truths. -- Edward Abbey ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
On 12/11/06, Matt Revelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you mean by real publisher? As long as the quality of the final product is good, does it really matter what publishing company has their name stamped on it? It matters to me; if I'm going to put work into this, then that's what I want the result to be. I'm happy, of course, for projects that I am not involved in to use whatever publishing mechanisms that the people involved in those projects prefer. If you want to help with the writing project that I have in mind, then discuss that on the list. If you want to start another writing project whose primary goal is to produce an open-content, electronic book, then announce that on the list too. If you want to debate the merits of open-content versus traditional publishing, well, I'd love to have that debate too, but this list probably isn't the right forum for that. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt There are many places in computer science where it's actually helpful to procrastinate. -- Eric Brewer ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
Well, I'm not opposed at all to a written final form. I guess I just don't see that and using a wikibook to assist in our collaboration as mutually exclusive. Anyway, I'd love to help in any such project. By the way, I seem to be messing up the threads. What is considered the correct way to reply to a particular thread? I've been copying and pasting the subject line and writing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
On 12/11/06, Andrew Wagner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I'm not opposed at all to a written final form. I guess I just don't see that and using a wikibook to assist in our collaboration as mutually exclusive. I think the confusion is my fault. I assumed that you (if it was you who originally used the word wikibook... it's been a long day) meant wikibook as in the Wikimedia Foundation Wikibooks site, but it seems you meant it as a generic term instead. Sorry. Anyway, I'd love to help in any such project. By the way, I seem to be messing up the threads. What is considered the correct way to reply to a particular thread? I've been copying and pasting the subject line and writing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think if you're going to do that, you also need to copy the cross-reference headers, and I don't know if Gmail lets you do that. (I gave up on trying to make that work, and got out of digest mode :-) Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt If you try to solve a hard problem, the question is not whether you will use a powerful enough language, but whether you will (a) use a powerful language, (b) write a de facto interpreter for one, or (c) yourself become a human compiler for one. -- Paul Graham ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
I have taken the liberty to read into the definition of practical Haskell; if I'm off target let me know so I can tweak my claims to fit whatever it is I thought I was discussing ;). Two cents: 1) This wouldn't be the first book introducing functional programming to imperative programmers. It would seem wise to investigate existing literature and see how the good ones handled that: which examples, when to introduce what, etc. The purity issue probably will be a novelty to a Haskell book though. 2) This wouldn't be the first book introducing Haskell to functional programmers. It would seem wise to investigate existing literature... I've read (and heard) a lot of claims that the existing learn Haskell books don't teach you real Haskell. I believe it's because the existing books tackle both 1 and 2 above, leaving no room for 3) This would be the first book introducing the nuances of large systems development in Haskell to Haskell programmers. Explaining well various monads (e.g. how to use mtl), or other things necessary for practical Haskell (e.g. ByteString, database interface, web app, parsing, and many other systems libraries), requires of the audience a rather thorough understanding of Haskell's type system (MPTC and other extensions for mirth). In summary: If this is to be a reasonably sized book, then I think it must assume some working knowledge of Haskell. There are a number of good books to learn the basics, but there doesn't seem to be a standard read this book for Haskell systems development. Eschew the basics to make room for the good stuff. If this is not to be a reasonably sized book (i.e. it will go from knowing Haskell 0% all the way to writing real world programs), then I think the good existing literature should be the inspiration for the learn Haskell section. I love the analogies as much as the next programming languages researcher, but I think introducing Haskell in text has been done and done well--it doesn't need a new approach. So don't reinvent the learn Haskell text; that way you can spend time on the good stuff. Nick ps - I'd be happy to participate in varying degrees with any collaborative effort. On 12/11/06, Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/11/06, Matt Revelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you mean by real publisher? As long as the quality of the final product is good, does it really matter what publishing company has their name stamped on it? It matters to me; if I'm going to put work into this, then that's what I want the result to be. I'm happy, of course, for projects that I am not involved in to use whatever publishing mechanisms that the people involved in those projects prefer. If you want to help with the writing project that I have in mind, then discuss that on the list. If you want to start another writing project whose primary goal is to produce an open-content, electronic book, then announce that on the list too. If you want to debate the merits of open-content versus traditional publishing, well, I'd love to have that debate too, but this list probably isn't the right forum for that. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt There are many places in computer science where it's actually helpful to procrastinate. -- Eric Brewer ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
Sorry, wasn't sure I had clearly expressed that it's possible to have an open book end up as a dead-tree book. Either way, I'm interested in helping. On 12/11/06, Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It matters to me; if I'm going to put work into this, then that's what I want the result to be. I'm happy, of course, for projects that I am not involved in to use whatever publishing mechanisms that the people involved in those projects prefer. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Fwd: Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
Ok, well I think we can all agree that such a book is a good idea. I suggest we take the discussion to some kind of collaboration tool. It's pretty hard to do just on this mailing list. There are a lot of options, such as finding a forum somewhere, creating a wiki book somewhere and having a mailing list too, using google's collaborative authoring tool, or whatever. Suggestions? Sorry, wasn't sure I had clearly expressed that it's possible to have an open book end up as a dead-tree book. Either way, I'm interested in helping. On 12/11/06, Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It matters to me; if I'm going to put work into this, then that's what I want the result to be. I'm happy, of course, for projects that I am not involved in to use whatever publishing mechanisms that the people involved in those projects prefer. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
On Mon, 2006-12-11 at 13:42 -0600, Nicolas Frisby wrote: Two cents: Two (Croatian) lipas, much less than two cents :-( 3) This would be the first book introducing the nuances of large systems development in Haskell to Haskell programmers. Explaining well various monads (e.g. how to use mtl), or other things necessary for practical Haskell (e.g. ByteString, database interface, web app, parsing, and many other systems libraries), requires of the audience a rather thorough understanding of Haskell's type system (MPTC and other extensions for mirth). Right. We need something practical after one is finished with e.g. Thompson's Craft or Hudak's SOE. I love the analogies as much as the next programming languages researcher, but I think introducing Haskell in text has been done and done well--it doesn't need a new approach. So don't reinvent the learn Haskell text; that way you can spend time on the good stuff. I agree and want to encourage the effort to bring 'practical Haskell' to the masses. Today one user in #haskell.hr expressed his doubt whether ...Haskell has any future out of academic circles... Sincerely, Gour signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
On 12/11/06, Andrew Wagner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, well I think we can all agree that such a book is a good idea. I suggest we take the discussion to some kind of collaboration tool. It's pretty hard to do just on this mailing list. There are a lot of options, such as finding a forum somewhere, creating a wiki book somewhere and having a mailing list too, using google's collaborative authoring tool, or whatever. Suggestions? Yes, I think it's quite clear now that there's enough interest in this, and we shouldn't get distracted by the licensing equivalent of bikeshed-coloring. I should have enough web hosting space to set up a wiki and a mailing list for discussion, so I'll go ahead and do that sometime over the next couple of days, and follow up here. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt Science fiction is not predictive; it is descriptive.--Ursula K. Le Guin ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
G'day all. Quoting Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I suppose I should have clarified that I meant a dead-trees book with a real publisher, [...] Something more like this, then: http://phptr.com/perens Maybe we should come up with an outline and a sample chapter or two, then talk to Bruce? Cheers, Andrew Bromage ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Writing Haskell For Dummies Or At Least For People Who Feel Like Dummies When They See The Word 'Monad'
On 12/11/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: G'day all. Quoting Kirsten Chevalier [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I suppose I should have clarified that I meant a dead-trees book with a real publisher, [...] Something more like this, then: http://phptr.com/perens Maybe we should come up with an outline and a sample chapter or two, then talk to Bruce? That looks interesting. I'm not sure we fit in, but then, I'm not sure whether this idea fits in, as such, anywhere. I think there are a few things to figure out before we get to the point of writing an outline, but it's a reasonable thing to write in any case. Cheers, Kirsten -- Kirsten Chevalier* [EMAIL PROTECTED] *Often in error, never in doubt in a recent future, this is past -- James Keelaghan ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
