RE: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
No. I'm afraid not. M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marsbar Sent: 19 May 2008 23:01 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: RE: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music Do you sell it in an electronic copy? Fi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Muskett Sent: Tuesday, 20 May 2008 5:49 AM To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: RE: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music It has come to my attention that at least one copy of our Hurdy-gurdy Method has been copied to the point of extinction. By doing this instead of buying a copy reduces the income of the author (my wife) and the publisher (myself). I consider this to be an unscrupulous and scurvy thing to do and amounts to theft, which is why copying is illegal. I think anyone who uses such a copy at a festival or workshop should be banned. I would add an Arabic curse: May his crotch be infested with fleas and may his arms be too short to scratch. I had been toying with the idea of making copies post free to students, but this toy is now back in the cupboard. MM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1453 - Release Date: 18/05/2008 09:31
RE: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Arle, Well, it's my fault for not having a website. I must be the only person without one but I can't set it up myself and I'm not prepared to pay the earth for one. I am surprised I am so difficult to locate. I am a member of the Hurdy gurdy Forum (UK) and I'm not sure if you must register before communicating. Membershiop is free.In the meantime (pending my over-delayed website)my address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] for the next two weeks only (I am forced to change) I sell the Method direct and it is the same price as sold commercially in the States, but selling direct is a better deal for me. Thanks. Payment is by Paypal - £30.00 Sterling inc postage. Email me for details to place an order. Anything can be found on the web. Search for Doreen and Michael Muskett/Flutes, Reeds Whistles and you will find my home address and my email address. So simple! Let me get my website going before I venture into electronic publishing please. I am sure that most HG players are perfectly honest. Good luck and best wishes to all. Michael ---Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arle Lommel Sent: 20 May 2008 00:20 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music Michael, Where does one get a legitimate copy? I've never seen one for sale where I could get it, so I simply do not have the book at all. (No, I have not pirated it.) I'm not trying to justify piracy of the material, but often times people copy things that they can't otherwise obtain. I suspect that a substantial number of these photocopied pieces could be turned into legitimate sales if there were an easy way to buy it (i.e., if the hassle of finding it and buying it didn't exceed a reasonable amount). I just went on hurdygurdy.com and the only reference for how to get it that I found was your postal address, something fewer and fewer individuals, even well meaning ones, would avail themselves of. Anymore, without a website, I suspect most people would find the links on Amazon that indicate it is out of print and simply assume that they can't get it from you anymore. I've been on this list now for something like eight years as an active participant and if I don't know how to get it, I suspect that most neophytes have even less of a clue. I think it would benefit you and the community at large if there were an easier way to (a) find out how to get a copy and (b) actually get said copy. As near as I can tell, there is no convenient way for someone to get it now. Marsbar asked if it is in electronic format. That's not an unreasonable question today and there are fairly simple ways you can stamp electronic copies with This copy purchased by John Doe so that if John Doe does lend it out, it is obvious where the source was. Contact me off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you'd like to know more about what would be involved in setting up electronic distribution. Best, Arle On May 19, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Michael Muskett wrote: It has come to my attention that at least one copy of our Hurdy-gurdy Method has been copied to the point of extinction. By doing this instead of buying a copy reduces the income of the author (my wife) and the publisher (myself). I consider this to be an unscrupulous and scurvy thing to do and amounts to theft, which is why copying is illegal. I think anyone who uses such a copy at a festival or workshop should be banned. I would add an Arabic curse: May his crotch be infested with fleas and may his arms be too short to scratch. I had been toying with the idea of making copies post free to students, but this toy is now back in the cupboard. MM Can anyone say why I am getting loads of [EMAIL PROTECTED] messages directly to my own email address? -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1453 - Release Date: 18/05/2008 09:31
RE: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Sylvain little motor. Why not buy a copy of the 3rd edition in French.? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc Sent: 20 May 2008 16:02 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music ANYWAY .ABOUT TUTORIAL . IF SOMEBODYHAVE A GOOD COPYRITED COMPLETE HURDY GURDY TUTORIAL ''' ON DVD .'' IN FRENCH . I WILL PAY THE PRICE ASKED. THANKS SYLVAIN - Original Message - From: Arle Lommel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 9:28 AM Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music While some of us are happy to discuss these topics, they are totally tangential to the list at this point, so please let's move further discussion of this topic off the list lest Alden be forced to use his mighty sword and cleave us from the list ;-) Arle On May 20, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Brian W. Brown wrote: It can be done, It can be bullet proof I am with Greg on this one. Watermarking or other DRM schema are fundamentally flawed. They all provide the user (or attacker depending on your point of view) with ciphertext, the cipher and the key. Obscured, perhaps, but it is all there and the secret falls apart. Cory Doctorow put it very well in a talk on the subject when he said, Here's the social reason that DRM fails: keeping an honest user honest is like keeping a tall user tall. DRM stops Joe down the hall from making a clean copy, but to the sophisticated user the Watermark is easy to remove. The entire talk is a must read if you really care about any of this stuff: http://www.dashes.com/anil/stuff/doctorow-drm-ms.html - Brian -- Brian W. Brown Director, Electronic Student Services Room 269, John Thomas Hall Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608 Office: 828-262-7124 http://ess.appstate.edu/ http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1455 - Release Date: 2008-05-19 17:04
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
you have in french .? i am interested for sure . send me total with shipping . at my adresse [EMAIL PROTECTED] little motor is my second buziness .lol. bye sylvain www.sylvainsledparts.qc.ca - Original Message - From: Michael Muskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: RE: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music Sylvain little motor. Why not buy a copy of the 3rd edition in French.? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of sylvain gagnon mini moteur 2000 inc Sent: 20 May 2008 16:02 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music ANYWAY .ABOUT TUTORIAL . IF SOMEBODYHAVE A GOOD COPYRITED COMPLETE HURDY GURDY TUTORIAL ''' ON DVD .'' IN FRENCH . I WILL PAY THE PRICE ASKED. THANKS SYLVAIN - Original Message - From: Arle Lommel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 9:28 AM Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music While some of us are happy to discuss these topics, they are totally tangential to the list at this point, so please let's move further discussion of this topic off the list lest Alden be forced to use his mighty sword and cleave us from the list ;-) Arle On May 20, 2008, at 9:12 AM, Brian W. Brown wrote: It can be done, It can be bullet proof I am with Greg on this one. Watermarking or other DRM schema are fundamentally flawed. They all provide the user (or attacker depending on your point of view) with ciphertext, the cipher and the key. Obscured, perhaps, but it is all there and the secret falls apart. Cory Doctorow put it very well in a talk on the subject when he said, Here's the social reason that DRM fails: keeping an honest user honest is like keeping a tall user tall. DRM stops Joe down the hall from making a clean copy, but to the sophisticated user the Watermark is easy to remove. The entire talk is a must read if you really care about any of this stuff: http://www.dashes.com/anil/stuff/doctorow-drm-ms.html - Brian -- Brian W. Brown Director, Electronic Student Services Room 269, John Thomas Hall Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608 Office: 828-262-7124 http://ess.appstate.edu/ http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1455 - Release Date: 2008-05-19 17:04 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1473 - Release Date: 2008-05-29 19:53
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
I have to say that I got mine plus later the CD by sending cheques in the post (ok, more difficult if you are not in the UK but maybe buying via Paypal?) but, considering the cost of photocopying, printer paper, printer ink etc, it's probably around the same price as buying it anyway (not to mention the time it would take and the fact that you have to bind it, punch holes in the paper or have a great wad of papers to try and keep in order). It IS a good point though that, if someone thinks it is out of print, they may see this as the only way to get a copy of an essential book. I think it IS on-topic as many of us have learned a lot from the method and, if a solution isn't found, it may well go out of print for good and that would be a disaster for HG players. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Minstrel Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Greg Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Hurdy Gurdy Fourm hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 6:06 AM Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music Greg, I have to disagree with you. I worked as the IT person for a motion picture group at a f500 company. Of that, I worked foe the story dept. I worker with them, on the watermarking of scripts. It can be done, but with anything, it requires time, money, equipment, but once in place, I could tell you from any given digital copy, who's office it came from, moreover, any hardcopy had a watermark on each and every page. It can be bullet proof, but as passwords go. Write them down, and stick it in a saftey deposit box, or mail it to your self, etc. ][=+Sent from my iPhone+=][ On May 19, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Greg Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 06:13:38PM -0700, Minstrel Geoffrey wrote: Regardless of your platform, Adobe Acrobat Professional will allow water seals digitally embedded into the copy. You also can password protect it with the users name, code, etc that would reflect that person whom bought it. There is also a way to encrypt of, so it can't be copied, printed, editeded, etc. These features are an illusion: some are easy to circumvent (the no-print flag), others decrease usability. If the customer forgets their password, how do you plan on supporting them? Watermarking is definitely a good step to take, but of course this, too, can be circumvented. -- greg
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Arle, I only meant that discussion on the technicalities of Digital Rights Management (DRM) for PDF documents was off topic, not the issue of how to make sure the Muskett book enjoys a long life. I agree and was not trying to take the discussion off course, but was only trying to point out some of the problems with a solution that had been put forth about the Method book. I completely agree with you regarding that most of the copyright infringement is due to lack of availability. I *need* this book personally as I am very new to the Gurdy, but when I check Amazon, I get nothing Michael. I would love to give you $50 for the book. I would not accept a copy that had been Xeroxed, as I respect the creative work of others - this was my point about Doctorow's comment about keeping honest users honest is like keeping tall users tall. That being said, note you have someone here who is more than willing to buy the book but simply can't find a copy. I said above I am new to the Gurdy thing... I am, but have lurked on this list for at least a few years now. And I guess this is as good of a time as any to make this observation. There are obviously some very talented and knowledgeable people here, but I have been surprised by the closed nature of the list. I belong to many lists both professionally and personally - few are as unfriendly. This strikes me as sad, as I love the Gurdy and wish to learn. Having posted a hello or two that were ignored, to being quietly told to get on topic by a list elder does not make for an environment welcoming to those of us new and curious. I may simply be more comfortable posting about a topic of which I have more knowledge - in this case copyright and technology. But my knowledge here also extends to a understanding of how creative works draw from the intellectual and creative commons. We create new works by re-mixing the past and I thought this was something that we should be reminded of, particularly in a world that has so much traditional music that belongs to all of us. I feel I can contribute here and that it does matter, as it seems a valuable work is at risk of being lost. It frankly surprises me that the context of my post was not clear. Sorry for the rant, but I both love and get very frustrated with this particular community. Kind Regards, Brian -- Brian W. Brown Director, Electronic Student Services Room 269, John Thomas Hall Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608 Office: 828-262-7124 http://ess.appstate.edu/ http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
I think that any way to help get the book to a greater number of players is good and that may also include some of the pitfalls that may be found along the way. As I said, I think most genuine HG players would much prefer a legitimate copy (I certainly hope so). Maybe those with HG websites or those who are builders could include contact details for the book (with Michael's permission, of course) on their sites as a matter of course. We are, after all, trying to ensure that we all become good players, whatever our level. It would (and is) nice to see cooperation like this on the list. Maybe some could even find the funds to stock a few copies of the book? I'm a fairly new player but have that love for the instrument that we all share and I think Michael's idea of banning or, maybe even better, giving the choice of banning or confiscating and destroying, any unauthorised copies at a venue would be a fair idea. I would like to see that genuine copies were made available though for those who genuinely thought it was out of print though. Please don't worry about sharp comments. We get the same when it gets to very technical stuff on building (as many of us wouldn't know a hammer from a spoke shave anyway). Alden will step in to give us a (kindly) smack on the wrist if we stray too far but some worry more than others :) Some of us do just keep going regardless but we generally fall into line. It's not a closed community as, in reality, we only offer suggestions or opinions. Alden's in charge and what he says goes and he's very tolerant with us. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Brian W. Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 9:34 PM Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music Arle, I only meant that discussion on the technicalities of Digital Rights Management (DRM) for PDF documents was off topic, not the issue of how to make sure the Muskett book enjoys a long life. I agree and was not trying to take the discussion off course, but was only trying to point out some of the problems with a solution that had been put forth about the Method book. I completely agree with you regarding that most of the copyright infringement is due to lack of availability. I *need* this book personally as I am very new to the Gurdy, but when I check Amazon, I get nothing Michael. I would love to give you $50 for the book. I would not accept a copy that had been Xeroxed, as I respect the creative work of others - this was my point about Doctorow's comment about keeping honest users honest is like keeping tall users tall. That being said, note you have someone here who is more than willing to buy the book but simply can't find a copy. I said above I am new to the Gurdy thing... I am, but have lurked on this list for at least a few years now. And I guess this is as good of a time as any to make this observation. There are obviously some very talented and knowledgeable people here, but I have been surprised by the closed nature of the list. I belong to many lists both professionally and personally - few are as unfriendly. This strikes me as sad, as I love the Gurdy and wish to learn. Having posted a hello or two that were ignored, to being quietly told to get on topic by a list elder does not make for an environment welcoming to those of us new and curious. I may simply be more comfortable posting about a topic of which I have more knowledge - in this case copyright and technology. But my knowledge here also extends to a understanding of how creative works draw from the intellectual and creative commons. We create new works by re-mixing the past and I thought this was something that we should be reminded of, particularly in a world that has so much traditional music that belongs to all of us. I feel I can contribute here and that it does matter, as it seems a valuable work is at risk of being lost. It frankly surprises me that the context of my post was not clear. Sorry for the rant, but I both love and get very frustrated with this particular community. Kind Regards, Brian -- Brian W. Brown Director, Electronic Student Services Room 269, John Thomas Hall Appalachian State University Boone, NC 28608 Office: 828-262-7124 http://ess.appstate.edu/ http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/
RE: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
It has come to my attention that at least one copy of our Hurdy-gurdy Method has been copied to the point of extinction. By doing this instead of buying a copy reduces the income of the author (my wife) and the publisher (myself). I consider this to be an unscrupulous and scurvy thing to do and amounts to theft, which is why copying is illegal. I think anyone who uses such a copy at a festival or workshop should be banned. I would add an Arabic curse: May his crotch be infested with fleas and may his arms be too short to scratch. I had been toying with the idea of making copies post free to students, but this toy is now back in the cupboard. MM Can anyone say why I am getting loads of [EMAIL PROTECTED] messages directly to my own email address? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Sherwood Sent: 10 April 2008 18:51 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music Melissa, I know it wasn't clear from my message but when I said 'how strongly people feel' I was thinking of the composers feelings, not the general list. Hopefully there are some composers (or people who know their thoughts) on this list who might comment. Paul On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Melissa Kacalanos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How the folks on this list feel about this isn't the issue. What matters is how the composers feel about their music being published, and the only way to find that out is to ask them. Let's say there's a musician who composes a good tune, so other musicians want to play it. Someone might transcribe it and want to share it, say by putting it online, for free, for other hobbyists to play, also for free. Or maybe he just hands out sheet music to his friends. No one is making money off this. Then what if the original composer later wants to publish a book of original tunes? The musicians who want that tune have already downloaded that tune for free, so there goes the potential market for that book. Yes, no one has made any money off of the composer's tune, but the composer has still been cheated. Under US copyright law at least, this is illegal. More importantly, it's a mean thing to do to our fellow musicians. I'm sure many musicians would be happy to share their music if you ask them, but the important thing is asking them. Melissa www.melissatheloud.com Paul Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think most people in the trad and folk world are happy to have people play their tunes. Whether they are happy to have them published as a manuscript (or other forms such as abc) is a different matter. Since Blowzabella publish the books as part of their income, they might well object to lost revenues if someone made a big ABC file and put it on the net. Any thoughts on how strongly people feel about this? Paul On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 3:33 PM, DEREK LOFTHOUSE wrote: I am at work so i dont have the books here to check, but the 2nd Blowzabella tune book says something to the effect of 'please feel free to play our tunes, but credit us and something about royalties if you are making money off of them'. I think most people writing music in the 'trad' world are just happy to have their tunes played. I've been to workshops with Gilles Chabenat and he mainly works on his own tunes, so i think he is more than happy to see people play them hope this helps a little derek __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.11/1368 - Release Date: 09/04/2008 16:20
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Michael, Where does one get a legitimate copy? I've never seen one for sale where I could get it, so I simply do not have the book at all. (No, I have not pirated it.) I'm not trying to justify piracy of the material, but often times people copy things that they can't otherwise obtain. I suspect that a substantial number of these photocopied pieces could be turned into legitimate sales if there were an easy way to buy it (i.e., if the hassle of finding it and buying it didn't exceed a reasonable amount). I just went on hurdygurdy.com and the only reference for how to get it that I found was your postal address, something fewer and fewer individuals, even well meaning ones, would avail themselves of. Anymore, without a website, I suspect most people would find the links on Amazon that indicate it is out of print and simply assume that they can't get it from you anymore. I've been on this list now for something like eight years as an active participant and if I don't know how to get it, I suspect that most neophytes have even less of a clue. I think it would benefit you and the community at large if there were an easier way to (a) find out how to get a copy and (b) actually get said copy. As near as I can tell, there is no convenient way for someone to get it now. Marsbar asked if it is in electronic format. That's not an unreasonable question today and there are fairly simple ways you can stamp electronic copies with This copy purchased by John Doe so that if John Doe does lend it out, it is obvious where the source was. Contact me off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you'd like to know more about what would be involved in setting up electronic distribution. Best, Arle On May 19, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Michael Muskett wrote: It has come to my attention that at least one copy of our Hurdy-gurdy Method has been copied to the point of extinction. By doing this instead of buying a copy reduces the income of the author (my wife) and the publisher (myself). I consider this to be an unscrupulous and scurvy thing to do and amounts to theft, which is why copying is illegal. I think anyone who uses such a copy at a festival or workshop should be banned. I would add an Arabic curse: May his crotch be infested with fleas and may his arms be too short to scratch. I had been toying with the idea of making copies post free to students, but this toy is now back in the cupboard. MM Can anyone say why I am getting loads of [EMAIL PROTECTED] messages directly to my own email address?
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Regardless of your platform, Adobe Acrobat Professional will allow water seals digitally embedded into the copy. You also can password protect it with the users name, code, etc that would reflect that person whom bought it. There is also a way to encrypt of, so it can't be copied, printed, editeded, etc. I would highly advise on this bit if software ][=+Sent from my iPhone+=][ On May 19, 2008, at 4:20 PM, Arle Lommel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael, Where does one get a legitimate copy? I've never seen one for sale where I could get it, so I simply do not have the book at all. (No, I have not pirated it.) I'm not trying to justify piracy of the material, but often times people copy things that they can't otherwise obtain. I suspect that a substantial number of these photocopied pieces could be turned into legitimate sales if there were an easy way to buy it (i.e., if the hassle of finding it and buying it didn't exceed a reasonable amount). I just went on hurdygurdy.com and the only reference for how to get it that I found was your postal address, something fewer and fewer individuals, even well meaning ones, would avail themselves of. Anymore, without a website, I suspect most people would find the links on Amazon that indicate it is out of print and simply assume that they can't get it from you anymore. I've been on this list now for something like eight years as an active participant and if I don't know how to get it, I suspect that most neophytes have even less of a clue. I think it would benefit you and the community at large if there were an easier way to (a) find out how to get a copy and (b) actually get said copy. As near as I can tell, there is no convenient way for someone to get it now. Marsbar asked if it is in electronic format. That's not an unreasonable question today and there are fairly simple ways you can stamp electronic copies with This copy purchased by John Doe so that if John Doe does lend it out, it is obvious where the source was. Contact me off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you'd like to know more about what would be involved in setting up electronic distribution. Best, Arle On May 19, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Michael Muskett wrote: It has come to my attention that at least one copy of our Hurdy-gurdy Method has been copied to the point of extinction. By doing this instead of buying a copy reduces the income of the author (my wife) and the publisher (myself). I consider this to be an unscrupulous and scurvy thing to do and amounts to theft, which is why copying is illegal. I think anyone who uses such a copy at a festival or workshop should be banned. I would add an Arabic curse: May his crotch be infested with fleas and may his arms be too short to scratch. I had been toying with the idea of making copies post free to students, but this toy is now back in the cupboard. MM Can anyone say why I am getting loads of [EMAIL PROTECTED] messages directly to my own email address?
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Greg, I have to disagree with you. I worked as the IT person for a motion picture group at a f500 company. Of that, I worked foe the story dept. I worker with them, on the watermarking of scripts. It can be done, but with anything, it requires time, money, equipment, but once in place, I could tell you from any given digital copy, who's office it came from, moreover, any hardcopy had a watermark on each and every page. It can be bullet proof, but as passwords go. Write them down, and stick it in a saftey deposit box, or mail it to your self, etc. ][=+Sent from my iPhone+=][ On May 19, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Greg Lindahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 06:13:38PM -0700, Minstrel Geoffrey wrote: Regardless of your platform, Adobe Acrobat Professional will allow water seals digitally embedded into the copy. You also can password protect it with the users name, code, etc that would reflect that person whom bought it. There is also a way to encrypt of, so it can't be copied, printed, editeded, etc. These features are an illusion: some are easy to circumvent (the no-print flag), others decrease usability. If the customer forgets their password, how do you plan on supporting them? Watermarking is definitely a good step to take, but of course this, too, can be circumvented. -- greg
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Hi Melissa, yes - you are certainly qualified to answer my question, thank you. My thoughts on this are that while the law is necessarily black and white, copyright violations in the folk world span a massive spectrum, at one end you have tunebooks made mainly for groups to play together from but placed on the web, with a few well known tunes from Chabenat, Paris, Bouffard, Stapleton etc mixed in. Usually these tunes are already 'published' and as long as the tunes are credited properly (and named and spelt correctly) it could be argued that this sort of activity (while technically illegal) probably helps the artist. Newcomers to the music come to know who the composers of the session tunes are and can seek out the CDs, books, workhops and concerts for find more. At the other end of the spectrum you have the sort of case you describe where significant amounts of material are reproduced for profit without permission or royalties. Such blatant rip-off and mis-crediting of tunes is clearly completely out of order, no question. I am more interested in the first case really .. and what the artists think .. whether they feel their work is helped or hindered by the tunes become commonly known through sharing in this way. If the answer is 'helped', it would be great if we could see a wider use, by the artists themselves, of creative commons licences and the like. Paul On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Melissa Kacalanos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, that makes more sense. But still, it might be misinterpreted. Many folks in the folk music world, including many people who are composing new tunes, feel that music should be shared, for free, with anyone. I just don't want that popular opinion to be accepted as the only opinion, so the rights of composers who feel differently are infringed upon. I have actual experience with this. I know of one hg player who does extremely creative arrangements of public domain tunes, so creative that the original tune is barely recognizable. They're great arrangements, and maybe even should count as brand new, original tunes. He doesn't call them by their traditional names, but comes up with new names for them. Also, he is rather possessive of these arrangements, and has explicitly stated that he doesn't want other people playing them, even just hobbyists who are making no money off the tunes. I think this is because he doesn't want his arrangements being mistaken for the genuine, traditional tunes, and misleading people who might think they're playing historically accurate music. He'd rather have the original, historical tunes stay pure, so each new musician can do their own arrangements of them, not an arrangement of an arrangement. I also know a musician who has taken it upon herself to transcribe tunes and post them online. (Not for free, she charges to download each tune.) She has been transcribing all sorts of standards, including, I'm sorry to say, many things that are still definitely under copyright, like classic tunes from the 1950's and '60's. She isn't paying the composers' estates a cent. She also often doesn't even credit the composers, but claims that the tunes are traditional, so her customers who buy her tunes, and might later want to record and sell them, would be inadvertently committing a crime. I have told her that this is wrong, for both legal and ethical reasons, but she has said that she plans to keep doing it since she probably won't get caught. (Most of the composers lived or live in other countries, so she thinks the danger is less.) After a great deal of argument, I did manage to stop her from selling the very creative arrangements done by this hg player I mentioned (which she had been claiming were traditional.) I think what finally convinced her was that this hg player was someone she might run into, so she was more likely to get caught. She also expressed interest in transcribing a tune I wrote, but I think I managed to convince her not to do that either. Maybe I'd better check her website to make sure. Many people have asked me for dots for this tune. I'm wondering what to do about sharing it, since it is a good tune if I do say so myself, and I'd like to see it become popular. But I don't want someone else making this decision for me. So, I guess I am a composer who feels strongly about this, which I guess qualifies me to answer your question. Melissa www.melissatheloud.com My tune in question is The Burning of the Temple, track 3 off my solo CD, Tunes From a Strange Land: http://cdbaby.com/cd/kacalanos Paul Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Melissa, I know it wasn't clear from my message but when I said 'how strongly people feel' I was thinking of the composers feelings, not the general list. Hopefully there are some composers (or people who know their thoughts) on this list who might comment. Paul On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Melissa Kacalanos wrote: How the folks on this
RE: [HG] Music
Some of us might be on MySpace. Regarding copyright: most of the old Flemish tunes are free. I have a lot of them in PDF-format. I've been playing for some time with the idea of putting them somewhere on a site but I lack time and knowledge. Normally I would ask some help from my son-in-law to-be but he has a full time job looking in the eyes of my daughter. I will ask around about copyright issues at www.muziekmozaiek.be http://www.muziekmozaiek.be/ , the Flemish traditional music guild. T get a taste of it, look at http://members.home.nl/simonplantinga/hbc/ I don't know Simon Plantinga, but he put the entire Hollantse Boerenlieties (early 18th century country songs and contredanses from the low countries) in ABC- and PDF-format, respect!! Pieter From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colin Sent: 10 April 2008 00:06 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] Music As regards mug shots, I'm sure most of us have one on a web page somewhere (with or without our HG). I'm at www.ds-liverpool.co.uk which is a site I run for Down Syndrome in the UK (my son has that) but my mug is on it. I agree, it's nice to put a face to a name. Colin Hill. - Original Message - From: Roy Trotter mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Music We discussed an index in San Antonio, and are very limited by the copyright issue. Some very popular tunes : Les Poules Huppees, Avant de s'en Aller, and that one about the Limosine Piper are copyright. Sometimes the tune isn't, but the publication is. Tread carefully, it would be useful to have a reference to composers and copyrights, but might not be worth the work for you. Re: mug shot I might be doing you a favor to suppress mine. On the other hand you might be able to look at my picture and feel a lot better about yourself. Roy On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Minstrel Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is most of the music copyright free, or public domain? After being part of this email strong, and knowing how busy everyboy is, I thought that in my spare time (sleep? Gave that up years ago) I could Make a central site for all of us. The idea would be to have a section of music, that we all coils access in a .PDF format. Also have active links on places doe supplies, festivals, when you all tell me the when and where, and I thought over time, the woes could get out. Were a small community, it might be nice to have a bio page, where we all can have a roster, email addis and a mug shot, would be fun Ewing whom I'm typing to ;) Just a thought, any advice, any interest? Sent from my iPhone *** Your E-mail has been scanned against Potential Virus and Spyware/Grayware dangers by the MOD BE SECURITY SYSTEMS. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
Re: [HG] Music
Hello, sorry, I sent the german language link instead of te english, now the correct: * general reference wiki http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com/ S. --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
RE: [HG] Music
There is also some music and other useful info and tools on Chris Allen's site http://www.hurdygurdy.org/resources.html Graham Whyte -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Simon Wascher Sent: 10 April 2008 08:50 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] Music Hello, Am 09.04.2008 um 22:16 schrieb Minstrel Geoffrey: Is most of the music copyright free, or public domain? about two thirds of the popular french repertoire is under copyright. Its composed by living persons. Some are member of SACEM and in many cases copyright issues arise from publication contracts. Also notice that US and continental European copyright is a quite different matter. The idea would be to have a section of music, that we all coils access in a .PDF format. there is a search engine that allows you to search for tunes by title or else and gives back ps, eps, pdf, gif, png, midi, txt or abc: http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind I thought that in my spare time (sleep? Gave that up years ago) I could Make a central site for all of us. Also have active links on places doe supplies, festivals, when you all tell me the when and where, there are several sites that have been set up hoping to give central information some are (only sources in english): * general reference wiki http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com/ * encyclopedic information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy-gurdy * Alden Hackmann's hurdy-gurdy page http://hurdygurdy.com/info/ * Marcello Bono's Hurdy-Gurdy Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1045/english_version/avviso.html * a UK Hurdy-gurdy Forum http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/HurdyGurdyForum/ * the Over the Water Hurdy-Gurdy Association http://www.overthewater.org * a cottoning assistant and a documentation of the making http://www.gotschy.com/english/index.html * a hurdy gurdy mailing list archive since '06/07 http://www.mail-archive.com/hg@hurdygurdy.com * Mary Rasmussens ikonography for the hurdy gurdy http://www.unh.edu/music/Icon/ihgis.htm 15.-16. century, http:// www.unh.edu/music/Icon/ihgjs.htm 16. century, http://www.unh.edu/music/Icon/ighks.htm 16.-17. century * a text about buying a hurdy-gurdy? http://simonwascher.info/HGbuy.htm Just a thought, any advice, any interest? The hurdy-gurdy wiki is a site that was set up to do most of what you want (including the possibility of bio pages and fotos), so consider to work with that. Otherwise find out what it is that cannot be done with it to learn how to make it better. The aim of the wiki is quite exactly what you describe, so If you set up something new it should be able to really replace it, and not just another site that makes the jungle grow. I think its necessary that such a site site is set up in a way that users can ad information directly themselves. The thing to go for is a wiki or other content-management that is capeable of that is. The actual wiki is not the perfect solution. If you have better resurces I'd love to join your efforts. kind regards, Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
on copyright was: Re: [HG] Music
Hello, Am 10.04.2008 um 14:42 schrieb Colin: It's 50 years after the original publication that the copyright for music runs out. I remember, back in the 60's, a popular folk song of the time (The Spinning Wheel - Mellow the moonlight to shine is beginning) came out of copyright and everyone included it in their song lists. Here's a good link that gives general guidelines for the UK. This will vary depending on the country involved, of course. It also makes the distinction between the music and the recordings made of it. http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p07_music_copyright in Germany and Austria, the equivalent - not the translation as it is not te same thing - to copyright is Urheberrecht (literally originator's right) is an authors/composers right and ends 70 years after the death of the author/composer. It cannot be given up or sold, all you can do is not to levy it or license it to someone. Usually composers become member of a Society for musical performing rights if they want their rights to be accomplished and not if not, but the right itself stays untouched. As far as I understand this is the same in France. Maybe some of our french list members can assist with infos on french droits d'auteur. S. --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
[HG] Music, copyright
If you're looking for traditional Flemish Music: Edmond De Coussemaker: Music written down in the north (Flemish part) of France in the 19th century ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belle_%28gemeente%29 Belle, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_april 19 april http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1805 1805 - http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijsel Rijsel, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_januari 10 januari http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1876 1876) http://books.google.be/books?id=6MIQYAAJprintsec=frontcoverdq=de+cous semaker http://books.google.be/books?id=6MIQYAAJprintsec=frontcoverdq=de+couss emaker Hoffmann von Fallersleben: a German writing in Latin about Flemish Music!! (( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsburg-Fallersleben Fallersleben, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_april 2 april http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1798 1798 - http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvey Corvey, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_januari 19 januari http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1874 1874),) http://books.google.be/books?id=4FcoMAAJ http://books.google.be/books?id=4FcoMAAJ Florimond Van Duysse: the (very big) standard ( http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendermonde Dendermonde, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1843 1843 - http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gent Gent, http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/1910 1910) http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/duys001oude01_01/ In French, Latin and Dutch. I know: one language is dead, the other weird and the third is French! About copyright: In Belgium there is no longer copyright 70 years after the death of the author or the longest living author. The above mentioned authors for instance are no longer under copyright. Pieter
RE: [HG] Music
Has JC's ABC Tunefinder been mentioned on these listings before? You type in the name of the tune and it will crawl the web loking for music with that title in a variety of formats (including ABC and MIDI). What's really excellent about it is that if you know how a tune goes but not its title you can still search for it. This is done by entering the beginning of a tune's perl pattern instead of its title. The perl pattern represents the direction the pitch goes from note to note: 'u' for up and 'd' for down. Adjacent notes with the same pitch are ignored. So the beginning of the perl pattern for Waltzing Matilda is dduudduuddduuud (ignoring the leading notes). Searching on a perl pattern can be a little hit and miss, because it depends on whether the ABC files on the internet match the variant of the tune that you enter. But you may be lucky if you dont know a tune's name. I dont know how all this it stands in terms of copyright, but from a functional point of view, it complements a tune list very well. Here's the link: http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind And if you've not got software to convert ABC to manuscript, the on-line converter from the concertina community will do the job nicely: just cut and paste the ABC into the space provided. It will even generate a MIDI file so that you can listen to the tune as well: http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html Mike -Original Message- From: Simon Wascher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10 April 2008 14:09 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] Music Hello, by the way, why not just put a list of popular tunes together, just now, on the list. It would be helpfull for many and easily done. For the trad tunes linking to sheetmusic, abc and midi and to put it online is half an hour of editing. I can and offer the html code to every one who wants to have this too. Just titles composer and danceform. I guess it all starts with: basic common Central French dance repertoire list (title to be discussed) LaGrande'Bête (copyrighted) Man in a brown Hat (presumably copyrighted) Scottish à Virmoux Ganivelle (presumably copyrighted) AdeleBlanc-Sec (presumably copyrighted) Derrière les carreaux (presumably copyrighted) Scottish à Servant Bourrée du Plaix (presumably copyrighted) Les Poules Huppées (copyrighted) Tiennet (presumably copyrighted) Bourrée Droite La Bourrée Tournante Polka à Plumet Fubu Mazurka (presumably copyrighted) Mazurka à Chabenat (copyrighted) Bourréede Cusset L'Orientale (presumably copyrighted) Carrée de Vouvray (presumably copyrighted) Last Chance Bourrée (presumably copyrighted) Ton Ruban Bleu Bourrée dite Aurore Sand Derrière chez nous Valse à Bouffard (presumably copyrighted) Les Patins Blancs (presumably copyrighted) Valse a Cadet The Atholl Highlanders How to procede: add to the list what you think is missing, mark tunes you do not recognize or otherwise think are not suitable. I think such a list should not be too long, how long should be discussed, my guess is a maximum of 40 tunes, supposedly split into bourree a deux temps, bourree a trios temps, scotish, mazurka, valse, polka, 6/8 (to be discussed). kind regards, Simon --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment.
copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
I am at work so i dont have the books here to check, but the 2nd Blowzabella tune book says something to the effect of 'please feel free to play our tunes, but credit us and something about royalties if you are making money off of them'. I think most people writing music in the 'trad' world are just happy to have their tunes played. I've been to workshops with Gilles Chabenat and he mainly works on his own tunes, so i think he is more than happy to see people play them hope this helps a little derek - Original Message - From: Simon Wascher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, April 10, 2008 9:26 am Subject: Re: [HG] Music To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Hello,
Re: on copyright was: Re: [HG] Music
Of possible interest: http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/public_domain/ Lisa Joseph Fiat simii. Iocundum nunquam cessat. http://www.wodefordhall.com
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
How the folks on this list feel about this isn't the issue. What matters is how the composers feel about their music being published, and the only way to find that out is to ask them. Let's say there's a musician who composes a good tune, so other musicians want to play it. Someone might transcribe it and want to share it, say by putting it online, for free, for other hobbyists to play, also for free. Or maybe he just hands out sheet music to his friends. No one is making money off this. Then what if the original composer later wants to publish a book of original tunes? The musicians who want that tune have already downloaded that tune for free, so there goes the potential market for that book. Yes, no one has made any money off of the composer's tune, but the composer has still been cheated. Under US copyright law at least, this is illegal. More importantly, it's a mean thing to do to our fellow musicians. I'm sure many musicians would be happy to share their music if you ask them, but the important thing is asking them. Melissa www.melissatheloud.com Paul Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think most people in the trad and folk world are happy to have people play their tunes. Whether they are happy to have them published as a manuscript (or other forms such as abc) is a different matter. Since Blowzabella publish the books as part of their income, they might well object to lost revenues if someone made a big ABC file and put it on the net. Any thoughts on how strongly people feel about this? Paul On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 3:33 PM, DEREK LOFTHOUSE wrote: I am at work so i dont have the books here to check, but the 2nd Blowzabella tune book says something to the effect of 'please feel free to play our tunes, but credit us and something about royalties if you are making money off of them'. I think most people writing music in the 'trad' world are just happy to have their tunes played. I've been to workshops with Gilles Chabenat and he mainly works on his own tunes, so i think he is more than happy to see people play them hope this helps a little derek __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
So, Melissa, the question still standing is Will you share with us that interesting tune of yours? I'm curious now! Come on, it's completely up to you, but do make that decision soon! (and if it's playable in a French / Galician style HG in G/C, even better!) ;-) P.S. [off topic] We may do this off list, but I'm interested in getting a mijwiz, but I don't know where to find it. I mean, I'm in the perfect place for it - I live in Jerusalem and I'm going to spend 10 days in Egypt starting tomorrow (no, unfortunately I won't be in Cairo... just the Sinai). I know it is a traditional instrument in both those areas... But I can't seem to find it... If you have any suggestion or contact in the area, I'd be must obliged for the help. I know it is not an expensive instrument, it shouldn't be that difficult to get one! Augusto On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Melissa Kacalanos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, that makes more sense. But still, it might be misinterpreted. Many folks in the folk music world, including many people who are composing new tunes, feel that music should be shared, for free, with anyone. I just don't want that popular opinion to be accepted as the only opinion, so the rights of composers who feel differently are infringed upon. I have actual experience with this. I know of one hg player who does extremely creative arrangements of public domain tunes, so creative that the original tune is barely recognizable. They're great arrangements, and maybe even should count as brand new, original tunes. He doesn't call them by their traditional names, but comes up with new names for them. Also, he is rather possessive of these arrangements, and has explicitly stated that he doesn't want other people playing them, even just hobbyists who are making no money off the tunes. I think this is because he doesn't want his arrangements being mistaken for the genuine, traditional tunes, and misleading people who might think they're playing historically accurate music. He'd rather have the original, historical tunes stay pure, so each new musician can do their own arrangements of them, not an arrangement of an arrangement. I also know a musician who has taken it upon herself to transcribe tunes and post them online. (Not for free, she charges to download each tune.) She has been transcribing all sorts of standards, including, I'm sorry to say, many things that are still definitely under copyright, like classic tunes from the 1950's and '60's. She isn't paying the composers' estates a cent. She also often doesn't even credit the composers, but claims that the tunes are traditional, so her customers who buy her tunes, and might later want to record and sell them, would be inadvertently committing a crime. I have told her that this is wrong, for both legal and ethical reasons, but she has said that she plans to keep doing it since she probably won't get caught. (Most of the composers lived or live in other countries, so she thinks the danger is less.) After a great deal of argument, I did manage to stop her from selling the very creative arrangements done by this hg player I mentioned (which she had been claiming were traditional.) I think what finally convinced her was that this hg player was someone she might run into, so she was more likely to get caught. She also expressed interest in transcribing a tune I wrote, but I think I managed to convince her not to do that either. Maybe I'd better check her website to make sure. Many people have asked me for dots for this tune. I'm wondering what to do about sharing it, since it is a good tune if I do say so myself, and I'd like to see it become popular. But I don't want someone else making this decision for me. So, I guess I am a composer who feels strongly about this, which I guess qualifies me to answer your question. Melissa www.melissatheloud.com My tune in question is The Burning of the Temple, track 3 off my solo CD, Tunes From a Strange Land: http://cdbaby.com/cd/kacalanos *Paul Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]* wrote: Melissa, I know it wasn't clear from my message but when I said 'how strongly people feel' I was thinking of the composers feelings, not the general list. Hopefully there are some composers (or people who know their thoughts) on this list who might comment. Paul On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 6:23 PM, Melissa Kacalanos wrote: How the folks on this list feel about this isn't the issue. What matters is how the composers feel about their music being published, and the only way to find that out is to ask them. Let's say there's a musician who composes a good tune, so other musicians want to play it. Someone might transcribe it and want to share it, say by putting it online, for free, for other hobbyists to play, also for free. Or maybe he just hands out sheet music to his friends. No one is making money off this. Then what if the original composer later wants to publish
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
Actually, copyright law in the U.S. is different and the assumption is in favor of the creator, even if no publication is made. -Arle On Apr 10, 2008, at 2:54 PM, Colin wrote: Has the creative player actually published the work and added traditional - arrangement by XYZ? That's needed if copyright protection is required as it's the arrangement and not the tune that needs protection. Look at any CD of traditional music to see those lines. If you arrange it and don't publish, it's not copyright (a bit like telling someone you have invented something before you have the patent). Copyright only offers protection to things published, not created. Something that's easy to forget. Colin Hill
Re: copyrighted material was Re: [HG] Music
For those who are composers who *want* to share their work freely but still wish have the protections against abuse copyright provides, you might want to consider using the Creative Commons license: http://creativecommons.org/ And Hi! I have been lurking on this list for a long time. I am still very much a beginner, and have found this list is an excellent resource. So thanks to all the regulars on the list. Brian Paul Sherwood wrote: Melissa, I know it wasn't clear from my message but when I said 'how strongly people feel' I was thinking of the composers feelings, not the general list. Hopefully there are some composers (or people who know their thoughts) on this list who might comment. Paul begin:vcard fn:Brian W. Brown n:Brown;Brian org:Appalachian State University;Electronic Student Services adr;dom:Appalachian State University;;Room 269, John Thomas Hall;Boone;NC;28608 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Director tel;work:828-262-7124 tel;home:336-877-2617 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://ess.appstate.edu/ version:2.1 end:vcard
[HG] Music
Is most of the music copyright free, or public domain? After being part of this email strong, and knowing how busy everyboy is, I thought that in my spare time (sleep? Gave that up years ago) I could Make a central site for all of us. The idea would be to have a section of music, that we all coils access in a .PDF format. Also have active links on places doe supplies, festivals, when you all tell me the when and where, and I thought over time, the woes could get out. Were a small community, it might be nice to have a bio page, where we all can have a roster, email addis and a mug shot, would be fun Ewing whom I'm typing to ;) Just a thought, any advice, any interest? Sent from my iPhone
Re: [HG] Music
We discussed an index in San Antonio, and are very limited by the copyright issue. Some very popular tunes : Les Poules Huppees, Avant de s'en Aller, and that one about the Limosine Piper are copyright. Sometimes the tune isn't, but the publication is. Tread carefully, it would be useful to have a reference to composers and copyrights, but might not be worth the work for you. Re: mug shot I might be doing you a favor to suppress mine. On the other hand you might be able to look at my picture and feel a lot better about yourself. Roy On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Minstrel Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is most of the music copyright free, or public domain? After being part of this email strong, and knowing how busy everyboy is, I thought that in my spare time (sleep? Gave that up years ago) I could Make a central site for all of us. The idea would be to have a section of music, that we all coils access in a .PDF format. Also have active links on places doe supplies, festivals, when you all tell me the when and where, and I thought over time, the woes could get out. Were a small community, it might be nice to have a bio page, where we all can have a roster, email addis and a mug shot, would be fun Ewing whom I'm typing to ;) Just a thought, any advice, any interest? Sent from my iPhone
Re: [HG] Music
I think Louise Craig may already have plans to do this kind of thing in conjunction with the OTW cite so no need to duplicate efforts here. Thanks for thinking of this though. :-)-Cali As regards mug shots, I'm sure most of us have one on a web page somewhere (with or without our HG). I'm at www.ds-liverpool.co.uk which is a site I run for Down Syndrome in the UK (my son has that) but my mug is on it. I agree, it's nice to put a face to a name. Colin Hill. - Original Message - From: Roy Trotter To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:17 PM Subject: Re: [HG] Music We discussed an index in San Antonio, and are very limited by the copyright issue. Some very popular tunes : Les Poules Huppees, Avant de s'en Aller, and that one about the Limosine Piper are copyright. Sometimes the tune isn't, but the publication is. Tread carefully, it would be useful to have a reference to composers and copyrights, but might not be worth the work for you. Re: mug shot I might be doing you a favor to suppress mine. On the other hand you might be able to look at my picture and feel a lot better about yourself. Roy On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Minstrel Geoffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is most of the music copyright free, or public domain? After being part of this email strong, and knowing how busy everyboy is, I thought that in my spare time (sleep? Gave that up years ago) I could Make a central site for all of us. The idea would be to have a section of music, that we all coils access in a .PDF format. Also have active links on places doe supplies, festivals, when you all tell me the when and where, and I thought over time, the woes could get out. Were a small community, it might be nice to have a bio page, where we all can have a roster, email addis and a mug shot, would be fun Ewing whom I'm typing to ;) Just a thought, any advice, any interest? Sent from my iPhone
RE: [HG] music (slightly OT now)
When you open the page you see this: Florimond van Duyse 1843-1910 geboren: 1843 overleden: 1910 Biografie(ën) K. ter Laan, Letterkundig woordenboek voor Noord en Zuid (1941) Werken Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 1 (1903) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 2 (1905) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 3 (1907) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 4 (1908) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 5: eerste vervolg (1922) Click on one of the links called Het oude Nederlandsche Lied. After doing that the actual book opens. Then you can download it by using the download button at the right upper side of the screen. The entire work is in Dutch and to my knowledge there is no translation. The music notation is, of course, universal. Do this for the 4 volumes available. Remember, they're big. A complete print takes ± 4000 pages A4. If you have further questions, please ask. Pieter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colin Sent: 30 May 07 00:01 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] music (slightly OT now) Not knowing the language (sorry), is there a link anywhere to download the dbnl book to the PC? I can download a single page with a download manager but then have to download each of the gif files as well OR I can save each page as a web page. lot of work with a slow PC. I'm sure there's a downloadable pdf file of it all somewhere but can't find it. I can get a single pdf file up but can't seem to save it although the security settings say there isn't a problem. (I have a save copy option but it says it can't) I only have acrobat reader 6. (printing the whole lot would take up a lot of time and space). Any help would be appreciated. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Lauwers Pieter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:57 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM:med] [HG] music Suitable music for HG's: www.travak.nl http://www.travak.nl/ : They (Nikolai and Will) made a very fine tunebook in PDF http://members.home.nl/simonplantinga/hbc/ : contains the entire Hollantse boerenlieties, music first published between 1700 and 1716 in the Low Counties. It' big and it's complete. PDF format www.boombaltunes.be http://www.boombaltunes.be/ : tunes used in the Flemish folkdance circuit This is almost enough for a lifetime of playing. People who really want to get into Flemish songs should download the entire Het Oude Nederlandsche Lied by Florimond Van Duyse (1843-1910): one of the most complete collections of Flemish folksongs available. Available at the Digitale Bibliotheek der Nederlandse Letteren at http://www.dbnl.org/auteurs/auteur.php?id=duys001 I did my bit for Flemish music, time for a coffee, Pieter * Your E-mail has been scanned against Potential Virus and Spyware/Grayware dangers by the MOD BE SECURITY SYSTEMS. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
RE: [HG] music
Peiter, sorry for confusing you with the organisers of Boombal Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lauwers Pieter Sent: 30 May 2007 09:52 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: RE: [HG] music Dave, This problem is well known to me but entirely the credit of the people behind Boombal (which I'm definitely not, I'm not a great dancer). I already made them a remark about lacking or incomplete credits, without result. It is, however, a good source for finding music to play. Pieter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Rowlands Sent: 30 May 07 10:25 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: RE: [HG] music Hi All, Just to but in here, some of the tunes in the Boomball archive are poorly attributed. While they are listed as being collected from a band Duck Under the Bridge ( also listed as DUTB) they were written by members of the band that was Citizen Camambert. Below is a list. Please, if you like and use any of them, credids where due. Many/most of these tunes are available on the Citizen Camembert CD Anchovey Cappacino which is still available at £10.00. Please contact me if you would like a copy. Dave R Wals:- Title Composer Wals (dutb) 02 Vindefontaine D.Allan Wals (dutb)03 Natasha D.Rowlands Wals (dutb) 01 Five days of Epac Allan/Raine Bourree:- Dotb 01 Phantom furniture D.Allan Schottische:- Schottische 02 Dogs dinner D.Allan Mazurka:- Mazurka ( dutb) Kingly Vale S.Raine Zes-achts:- Rondeau Man from AndorraD.Allan Cercle (dutb) Wicker man D.Allan Jig (dutb) 01 House of mudD.Allan Jig (dutb) 02 DeadlineD.Allan Bretoens:- Hanterdro (dutb)Hantermouth D.Rowlands Andro (dutb)Resistance is useless D.Allan Andro (dutb) 02 Hound of the Baskervilles D.Allan Andro (dutb)03 Grinding Frog S.Raine The first wals, Vindefontaine, as it is shown on your website is incorrect. The first part should be moved to be the third part. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Colin Hill Sent: 29 May 2007 18:22 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] music Ah, Right. Until I got my HG, all my years of tunes has been mainly either Morris or Northumbrian (main instrument English Concertina) with a little Irish and Scottish thrown in so I never really got around to other European music - to my loss. Whatever their origin, there are some cracking tunes there although I don't think my fingers can go that fast these days :-) Colin Hill - Original Message - From: DEREK LOFTHOUSE [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [HG] music the boombal tunes are a mix of various european sources, there are english, french, breton as well as flemish. Lots of great tunes though. the Travak book has some good stuff in it so many tunes, so little time derek - Original Message - From: Colin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:08 am Subject: Re: [HG] music Well, knowing next to nothing about Flemish music, that has come as a pleasant surprise (boombal tunes as it has mp3 files, I'm still working on getting all the others). Thank you for the links. Enjoy your well-earned coffee. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Lauwers Pieter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:57 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM:med] [HG] music * Your E-mail has been scanned against Potential Virus and Spyware/Grayware dangers by the MOD BE SECURITY SYSTEMS. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
RE: [HG] music
Hi All, Just to but in here, some of the tunes in the Boomball archive are poorly attributed. While they are listed as being collected from a band Duck Under the Bridge ( also listed as DUTB) they were written by members of the band that was Citizen Camambert. Below is a list. Please, if you like and use any of them, credids where due. Many/most of these tunes are available on the Citizen Camembert CD Anchovey Cappacino which is still available at £10.00. Please contact me if you would like a copy. Dave R Wals:- Title Composer Wals (dutb) 02 Vindefontaine D.Allan Wals (dutb)03 Natasha D.Rowlands Wals (dutb) 01 Five days of Epac Allan/Raine Bourree:- Dotb 01 Phantom furniture D.Allan Schottische:- Schottische 02 Dogs dinner D.Allan Mazurka:- Mazurka ( dutb) Kingly Vale S.Raine Zes-achts:- Rondeau Man from AndorraD.Allan Cercle (dutb) Wicker man D.Allan Jig (dutb) 01 House of mudD.Allan Jig (dutb) 02 DeadlineD.Allan Bretoens:- Hanterdro (dutb)Hantermouth D.Rowlands Andro (dutb)Resistance is useless D.Allan Andro (dutb) 02 Hound of the Baskervilles D.Allan Andro (dutb)03 Grinding Frog S.Raine The first wals, Vindefontaine, as it is shown on your website is incorrect. The first part should be moved to be the third part. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Colin Hill Sent: 29 May 2007 18:22 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] music Ah, Right. Until I got my HG, all my years of tunes has been mainly either Morris or Northumbrian (main instrument English Concertina) with a little Irish and Scottish thrown in so I never really got around to other European music - to my loss. Whatever their origin, there are some cracking tunes there although I don't think my fingers can go that fast these days :-) Colin Hill - Original Message - From: DEREK LOFTHOUSE [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [HG] music the boombal tunes are a mix of various european sources, there are english, french, breton as well as flemish. Lots of great tunes though. the Travak book has some good stuff in it so many tunes, so little time derek - Original Message - From: Colin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:08 am Subject: Re: [HG] music Well, knowing next to nothing about Flemish music, that has come as a pleasant surprise (boombal tunes as it has mp3 files, I'm still working on getting all the others). Thank you for the links. Enjoy your well-earned coffee. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Lauwers Pieter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:57 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM:med] [HG] music
Re: [HG] music, sources, a bit OT
Hello, speaking as musican, editor and composer of traditional music, Am 30.05.2007 um 10:52 schrieb Lauwers Pieter: It is, however, a good source for finding music to play. a source which ignores composers and therefore manners and copyright is not a good source. There are other sources in internet which really do their best to acknowledge the composers. I would say, lets stop recomending pages who are unwillingly to care for manners and other peoples work and rights. Ignoring such sites is the only power we have and giving them publicity is the only reason they remain online. In case of your tunes, Dave, I would ask them to correct the author or remove the tunes, and threaten to sue them if they do not react. If someone says such a threat is not nice: is it nice to publish somone elses work without acknowledging the author, even after being reminded on this obligation as we have heared? Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
RE: [HG] music, sources, a bit OT
Please make my day, I'm tired of being the only one: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pieter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Simon Wascher Sent: 30 May 07 11:35 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] music, sources, a bit OT Hello, speaking as musican, editor and composer of traditional music, Am 30.05.2007 um 10:52 schrieb Lauwers Pieter: It is, however, a good source for finding music to play. a source which ignores composers and therefore manners and copyright is not a good source. There are other sources in internet which really do their best to acknowledge the composers. I would say, lets stop recomending pages who are unwillingly to care for manners and other peoples work and rights. Ignoring such sites is the only power we have and giving them publicity is the only reason they remain online. In case of your tunes, Dave, I would ask them to correct the author or remove the tunes, and threaten to sue them if they do not react. If someone says such a threat is not nice: is it nice to publish somone elses work without acknowledging the author, even after being reminded on this obligation as we have heared? Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info * Your E-mail has been scanned against Potential Virus and Spyware/Grayware dangers by the MOD BE SECURITY SYSTEMS. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
RE: [HG] music, sources, a bit OT
Hi all, I have sent them a reminder this morning, and we will see what happens Dave R -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Simon Wascher Sent: 30 May 2007 10:35 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] music, sources, a bit OT Hello, speaking as musican, editor and composer of traditional music, Am 30.05.2007 um 10:52 schrieb Lauwers Pieter: It is, however, a good source for finding music to play. a source which ignores composers and therefore manners and copyright is not a good source. There are other sources in internet which really do their best to acknowledge the composers. I would say, lets stop recomending pages who are unwillingly to care for manners and other peoples work and rights. Ignoring such sites is the only power we have and giving them publicity is the only reason they remain online. In case of your tunes, Dave, I would ask them to correct the author or remove the tunes, and threaten to sue them if they do not react. If someone says such a threat is not nice: is it nice to publish somone elses work without acknowledging the author, even after being reminded on this obligation as we have heared? Simon Wascher - Vienna, Austria --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
Re: [HG] music (slightly OT now)
Many thanks. All done. I wish I could read the language. It looks a fascinating work. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Lauwers Pieter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:02 AM Subject: RE: [HG] music (slightly OT now) When you open the page you see this: Florimond van Duyse 1843-1910 geboren: 1843 overleden: 1910 Biografie(ën) K. ter Laan, Letterkundig woordenboek voor Noord en Zuid (1941) Werken Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 1 (1903) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 2 (1905) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 3 (1907) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 4 (1908) Het oude Nederlandsche lied. Deel 5: eerste vervolg (1922) Click on one of the links called Het oude Nederlandsche Lied. After doing that the actual book opens. Then you can download it by using the download button at the right upper side of the screen. The entire work is in Dutch and to my knowledge there is no translation. The music notation is, of course, universal. Do this for the 4 volumes available. Remember, they're big. A complete print takes ± 4000 pages A4. If you have further questions, please ask. Pieter -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colin Sent: 30 May 07 00:01 To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] music (slightly OT now) Not knowing the language (sorry), is there a link anywhere to download the dbnl book to the PC? I can download a single page with a download manager but then have to download each of the gif files as well OR I can save each page as a web page. lot of work with a slow PC. I'm sure there's a downloadable pdf file of it all somewhere but can't find it. I can get a single pdf file up but can't seem to save it although the security settings say there isn't a problem. (I have a save copy option but it says it can't) I only have acrobat reader 6. (printing the whole lot would take up a lot of time and space). Any help would be appreciated. Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Lauwers Pieter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2007 12:57 PM Subject: RE: [SPAM:med] [HG] music Suitable music for HG's: www.travak.nl http://www.travak.nl/ : They (Nikolai and Will) made a very fine tunebook in PDF http://members.home.nl/simonplantinga/hbc/ : contains the entire Hollantse boerenlieties, music first published between 1700 and 1716 in the Low Counties. It' big and it's complete. PDF format www.boombaltunes.be http://www.boombaltunes.be/ : tunes used in the Flemish folkdance circuit This is almost enough for a lifetime of playing. People who really want to get into Flemish songs should download the entire Het Oude Nederlandsche Lied by Florimond Van Duyse (1843-1910): one of the most complete collections of Flemish folksongs available. Available at the Digitale Bibliotheek der Nederlandse Letteren at http://www.dbnl.org/auteurs/auteur.php?id=duys001 I did my bit for Flemish music, time for a coffee, Pieter * Your E-mail has been scanned against Potential Virus and Spyware/Grayware dangers by the MOD BE SECURITY SYSTEMS. This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal.
[HG] Music
Hello everyone. I broke down and figured that the wood and hardware (x2 because I would screw it up at least once) and time required to build were too much for me. I bought one of those minnesingers. I understand some of you have them as well. If you have any suggestions on music and method I would appreciate your advice. Now since I have one coming I can say I have started on the path. Also, I see that a fellow named Nathan Sweet offers a hurdy gurdy on the internet. Does anyone have experience with his instruments? Thank you. LCDR Bennett Solberg, PhD, FACHE Operations Analyst Naval Medical Information Management Center 8901 Wisconsin Avenue, BLDG 27 Bethesda, MD 20895 Work: 301-319-1121 Cell: 301-908-0051
Re: [HG] Music
--- Seth Hamon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't the minnesinger made with a plastic wheel that cannot be removed, and a plastic crank and tangents. I wonder how they sound. Not sure how they sound. Hopefully they sound Ok. I don't know much about Nathan Sweet's product either. I'd think a plastic wheel wouldn't need removal that much... Anyway congradulations, Bennett, I wish you well with it. As far as tutorial, everybody is going to recommend Doreen Muskett's book. It's pretty pricey, but is (probably still) the only book in English. My impression was the Dusty Strings was selling them OTC on an availablity basis, but I have heard a rumor that they had quit doing that, Someone with that company could clue you in on that issue. The other book available in English is the Hrdy Gurdy playing of Central France--Guidance and exercizes for the Hurdy Gurdy in D by Jean Francois HEINTZEN (aka Maxou) which is invaluable for a more sophisticated approach to working the dog. I got my copy from Dusty Strings as well. Google is your friend. Later, Roy Trotter Solberg, Bennett J LCDR NMIMC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone. I broke down and figured that the wood and hardware (x2 because I would screw it up at least once) and time required to build were too much for me. I bought one of those minnesingers. I understand some of you have them as well. If you have any suggestions on music and method I would appreciate your advice. Now since I have one coming I can say I have started on the path. Also, I see that a fellow named Nathan Sweet offers a hurdy gurdy on the internet. Does anyone have experience with his instruments? Thank you. LCDR Bennett Solberg, PhD, FACHE Operations Analyst Naval Medical Information Management Center 8901 Wisconsin Avenue, BLDG 27 Bethesda, MD 20895 Work: 301-319-1121 Cell: 301-908-0051
Re: [HG] Music
My first hurdy-gurdy was built by Nathan Sweet. It was that oh so familiar story that many of you have lived - I had wanted one for years, and bought the first one I ever found for sale. When I brought it home, before I could play it, the first thing I had to do was remove all the tangents and keys, and file down the keys and key holes so the keys would slide rather than stick. Then I had to put it all back together again. Needless to say, when I got to the part about changing the cotton, I was never intimidated! After a few weeks of playing, one of the ear pieces came off. I ended up having to glue it back on myself. Alden and Cali worked on rounding the wheel for me. I came to the conclusion that the builder had used my instrument for the shop dust pan. For the time that I had it, I extracted giant dust bunnies every time I turned it over and shook. The trompette/dog never worked. The instrument itself was very mellow in sound and easy to play. The best part of owning it was that it got me into the hurdy-gurdy community. I learned tunes and I met Alden and Cali and ordered a volksgurdy from them, and had the Sweet to play while I waited the few months. Since then I have seen several other hurdy-gurdies built by Nathan Sweet, and have come to the conclusion that mine for some reason was his best-ever effort. Everything eventually worked except the dog. The others I have seen were not playable at all. I eventually sold it to another beginner (in the Chicago area) who wanted something to play right away. As much as I dislike the feel of the plastic parts on the Kelischeck, the odds are better that you will have a playable instrument with it. If you find you love playing hg and want something with more features, get on the waiting list of your choice right away and play your minnesinger in the meantime. Don't worry about other instruments you find online. Joanne I bought one of those minnesingers. I understand some of you have them as well. If you have any suggestions on music and method I would appreciate your advice. Now since I have one coming I can say I have started on the path. Also, I see that a fellow named Nathan Sweet offers a hurdy gurdy on the internet. Does anyone have experience with his instruments? Thank you.
RE: [HG] Music
Actually, I've seen one used on stage by Piffaro (the renaissance wind band.) It's much easier to go on tour with than Tom's Lyn Elder, so they used it in their touring program one year. It did okay, although the Elder would have been much more impressive. Joanne They have sound bites on the webpage. It isn't a concert instrument for sure but it should be good enough to give me an idea if I wish to pursue HGs more seriously. Isn't the minnesinger made with a plastic wheel that cannot be removed, and a plastic crank and tangents. I wonder how they sound.
