Re: [HG] accordion tuning
thanks Ian because i also indulge in the dark side (irish and english) i am thinking a b/c chromatic is going to be the way to go, if i dont talk myself out of buying an instrument i dont really need. this has been a fascinating thread, started as box tuning, instantly got derailed and i think it has now ended up as what kind of makeup to wear at ren fairs.. derek - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:17 PM Subject: [HG] accordion tuning Derek, I brought a G/C diatonic accordion with me to Over The Water last year. It worked really well for playing C major tunes as you can get C, G, and F major really easily. If I was playing with someone with a D, Berry-style HG, a D/G model would be better. Minor tunes were a lot harder because the HG usually just diminishes the 3rd of the Major to play easily in a minor (C major to C minor) while the diatonic accordion goes a full step higher to get a minor scale (G to A minor). If I had to pick one diatonic accordion to get which would give you the most satisfaction in playing with a C/G hurdy-gurdy, I'd choose a 3 row, G/C/F. You can play along with the C major and G major tunes, then get easily down to G-minor. C-minor would be a bit hard, but at that point, just rock some chords for a little variety in your set. For a beginning instrument, check out a Hohner panther or other entry-level Hohner model (Buttonbox.com usually has some as well as Ebay). Come to OTW next year and I'll give you some pointers! -Ian Portland, OR. Derek Lofthouse wrote: Given that depending on the tuning (C/G or G/D) most french HurdyGurdy music is going to be in C,G,D, cmin,gmin and dmin, what tuning do accordion players use. Actually, what type of accordions are used. 2 row diatonics, 3 row diatonics, 2, 3 or more row chromatics? I checked a few cd's and they are no help, Cyril Roche (trio Patrick Bouffard) plays Accordeon Diatonique, as does Frederic Paris. Alain Bruel (from tour a tour) plays accordeon chromatique, Irish players use b/c or c#/d 2 row chromatics, english musicians tend to g/d diatonics but i have no clue what french music would use. any ideas anyone? thanks derek and yes, i am suffering from 'Multiple Instrument Aquisition Disorder'..
RE: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
Fi wrote, I know a lot a people who have bought various kits and made the instruments. Many of them have been happy with the results even though the instrument often requires a fair bit of tweaking. What is it about the hurdy gurdy that makes it particularly unsuited to kit form. Is it the lack of the trompette or the complex mechanicals? Good questions. Here's the problem: it's a complex instrument, and to build it well requires a certain level of precision. The Musikits instrument, for example, has a piece of 1/4 cold rolled steel rod threaded on each end for the shaft. In the time I have before I go to bed, I can't really even start to outline the mechanical problems with this choice in terms of stability, repeatability, precision and longevity. It's not that I have a hoity-toity attitude about these instruments, though I've gotten my share of letters telling me that I'm an arrogant elitist for rejecting the sound and playability of this instrument. It's just that if what we're looking for is a clean, rich sound, there's no way to get it with this shaft, these bearings (it doesn't have any) and this wheel, not to mention the keys, tangents, keybox, bridge, bracing, handle, crank, nuts (not movable), etc. It's like living in France for a year with the fabulous bakery just down the street where you can get fresh country bread every day, then coming back to the States and finding that the best you can get is three-day-old Wonder bread at Safeway. Yes, technically the French bread and the Wonder bread are both breads: they're made with flour and yeast, and they're baked in an oven, and they get sliced up so we can eat them... but there's a world of difference. The Wonder bread is a pale shadow of the Italian. Once you've tasted the French, you can't really go back. And yes, the Musikits doesn't have a trompette, which is so much of the fun of playing the HG that not having it seems such a waste. It's possible to retrofit the Musikits to have one, but it's not designed for it, certainly, and you'd HAVE to get a new handle too - the little button knob drawer-pull thing they give you is totally inadequate for playing the dog. OK, stepping off my soapbox now to go find some really good French bread... Alden
Re: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
yes Scott ... and i just cheked at my plans 2 min ago .. i dont know if all plans are like this by other sellers , but this one is full size . sylvain - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: Re: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning If it an argument between kits and professionally build instruments the pro built instruments win hands down. However, if you are inclined to build one why must you buy a kit. If you are looking to save money and you are determined to build your own then go for a really good set of plans. Even if you do not read French the La vielle a roue by Michel Pignol (ISBN 2-9522433-0-1) is a VERY complete set of informative plans and diagrams. Buy the books and plans, your own wood, the metal to make the crank and axle or buy them from a good source, buy the tuning pegs and strings and in the end you are out $300 to $500. The same as the poorly designed and oft maligned kits. Then start asking questions that you can't answer from the book. By buying a poor quality kit that someone else bought the parts for and put in a box and then marked up to the $300-500 range so they could make a tidy profit you are spending the money that you could have spent buying a good set of plans, the right parts, and good tone wood. If the whole process is just for the convenience of the kit and the I want it now mentality ( I fall trap to this myself) then you are giving up the quality that comes from the right parts and plans. My suggestion is to spend the time doing it, ask questions and make sure you design and build what you want, not what you can get right now. It ends the debate about kits or pro built versus money. If you have the time and the inclination to build it yourself don't buy a kit, buy the tools to make the instrument properly. Afterwards if you don't like the first one you don't have to pay for the tools to build the next one. You also learn a lot about them in the process. Scott -- Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.19/1257 - Release Date: 2008-02-03 17:49
Re: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you are looking to save money and you are determined to build your own then go for a really good set of plans. Even if you do not read French the La vielle a roue by Michel Pignol (ISBN 2-9522433-0-1) is a VERY complete set of informative plans and diagrams. Buy the books and plans, your own wood, the metal to make the crank and axle or buy them from a good source, buy the tuning pegs and strings and in the end you are out $300 to $500. The same as the poorly designed and oft maligned kits. Then start asking questions that you can't answer from the book. Thanks a lot for this. But let's say (since in fact this is the case) that you've already got the kit. Is there something really wrong with the design of the soundbox and keybox of the kit, that it can't be salvaged? I've already got that Alden's got a problem with the crank, no bearings, and the wheel. Would it be reasonable to take a look at these plans and modify the kit, rather than starting from scratch? In case it's not coming across -- I am not at all dismayed by the idea of fiddling and adapting. In fact, it makes it more interesting. But I just need to know if there's a big problem with starting with this flatback walnut/spruce soundchamber that I've already got built. From what I know of harps, it seems like a reasonable construction. But then, a gurdy's not very much like a harp. And my French is very bad indeed, but I spent about $30,000 sending my daughter to a Catholic high school where she passed an AP French exam, so maybe she can finally pay me back a little, hah, hah. Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
Kathy, Yes there are modifications that you can make to make the instrument more playable. The problem with most of the kits is that they are very very basic as far as sophistication. First, if possible, try to get an axle that you can add a good set of bearings to. What this means is that there may be some metal lathe work needed or at least some sort of locking mechanism so that the axle doesn't pull out towards the back causing the wheel to rub. There are at least 6 different ways to do this that I know of. Some of them are very complicated others not so much. I can send you some examples if you like. Next, to the best of my knowledge the top is birch but I do not know if they are using birch plywood (anyone that knows can answer directly). The sounding board makes a difference as well as the way the instrument is braced so questions to the site are a must. The kit is basic it is like having a harp with no levers. The note are diatonic only and that leaves out a lot of music that you may want to play (even Bransle De Chevaux with the Bb). The other thing is that the instrument tends to be to quiet or screechy and the sweet in between sounds tend to be unattainable. Try to find someone who knows how to set it up and have them set it up and teach you how. The changes to the instruments that I have seen are usually: new axle and bearing set up, banded wheel, new quality soundboard, proper tangents and a lot of math. Please understand that when you said that your husband was building it as a gift I did not jump in and say money wasted because it is a gift from the heart and I am sorry if anything I have said has soured the gift. As players we are all very enthusiastic about getting new players and having people join our small group. So we try to steer people away from the kits and the poorly made instruments so that they will not get discouraged and give up because it sounds to harsh or won't play the way they think it should. I refer to them as Closet Hurdy Gurdyists because once they play for awhile they don't like the sound of it and they put it away in the closet never to see the light of day again. We really do want you to play and to play well, we just know the results of to many kits that were made and players that were unmade. Also, as an aside, I play at the Southern California Ren Faire and have been annoying friends and family for three years with my playing. I truly understand the culture and the weather of Faire (we refer to them as Faire buggers too) and I have instruments that I play at Faire that I don't play anywhere else. If you or your husband needs help you can ask here. Although the comments may range depending on the question you should be able to get the answers you need. Scott **Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp00300025 48)
Re: [HG] accordion tuning
Hello, about accordeons and hurdy gurdy: Am 02.02.2008 um 14:38 schrieb Derek Lofthouse: Given that depending on the tuning (C/G or G/D) most french HurdyGurdy music is going to be in C,G,D, cmin,gmin and dmin, what tuning do accordion players use. Actually, what type of accordions are used. 2 row diatonics, 3 row diatonics, 2, 3 or more row chromatics? I checked a few cd's and they are no help, Cyril Roche (trio Patrick Bouffard) plays Accordeon Diatonique, as does Frederic Paris. Alain Bruel (from tour a tour) plays accordeon chromatique, Irish players use b/c or c#/d 2 row chromatics, english musicians tend to g/d diatonics but i have no clue what french music would use. if diatonic accordeons are used its usually two of them alternating on stage: one in D/G *AND* one in C/F (like Frederic Paris at La Chavannee). This is because from the D/G you get the D and G major, D mixo - from the C/F the D minor, D dorian, G dorian, G mixo. In the Auvergne there its a common tradition to use small chromatic button accordeons (which for the uninformed sometimes look like diatos). The main problem between diatonic accordeons and hurdy gurdies is that they are part of two different key modulation systems: the hurdy gurdy is drone based and chromatic - meaning it it can play in all scales as long as the root stays the same as the drone or wanders to the fourh of the drone: example: D-drone D major, D minor, D dorian, D mixolydian ... plus G major, G minor, G dorian, G mixolydian ... the diatonic accordeon is scale based and diatonic - meaning it it can play in all scales that have their root within its diatonic scales: example: G-scale plus D-scale G major, E minor, A dorian, D mixolydian ... plus D major, B minor, E dorian, A mixolydian ... plus so the two systems only match at certain points. Combining diatonic and drone instruments always is a compromise and needs consideration and constraint. Combining hurdy gurdy with chromatic accordeons (button or piano) - or chromatic concertinas - is an ease. Before rejecting this for reasons like the popularity of the diatos or weight or size of the chromatics, its probably usefull to have a closer look on the very wide range of instruments available. There are very small and light chromatic instruments too. The popularity of the (cheap and robust) diatonic accordeon is not the last reason for the decay of the drone based traditions in general and the hurdy gurdy in special. kind regards Simon --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
RE: [HG] accordion tuning
Geeze can’t keep a secret on the net. Lucky you to have a builder in the family. What style is he building? I suppose you already know how to crank a tractor ;-] Fi From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kathy Hutchins Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2008 3:45 AM To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: [HG] accordion tuning Good God, Fi, is that you? This is Kathy Hutchins. John's building me a hurdy gurdy. Sent from my iPhone On Feb 2, 2008, at 9:23 AM, Marsbar Hi everyone. My name is Fi and I am an Instrumentaholic. I am hopefully in the process of acquiring a hurdy gurdy so I joined this list so I can find out information on the dos and don’ts and the how to s and the how nots etc. Fi
Re: [HG] accordion tuning
i think first things is stop o go on ebay lol - Original Message - From: Marsbar To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: RE: [HG] accordion tuning Is that related to IAS Instrument Acquisition Syndrome? Hi everyone. My name is Fi and I am an Instrumentaholic. I am hopefully in the process of acquiring a hurdy gurdy so I joined this list so I can find out information on the dos and don'ts and the how to s and the how nots etc. Fi From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Derek Lofthouse Sent: Saturday, 2 February 2008 11:39 PM To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: [HG] accordion tuning Given that depending on the tuning (C/G or G/D) most french HurdyGurdy music is going to be in C,G,D, cmin,gmin and dmin, what tuning do accordion players use. Actually, what type of accordions are used. 2 row diatonics, 3 row diatonics, 2, 3 or more row chromatics? I checked a few cd's and they are no help, Cyril Roche (trio Patrick Bouffard) plays Accordeon Diatonique, as does Frederic Paris. Alain Bruel (from tour a tour) plays accordeon chromatique, Irish players use b/c or c#/d 2 row chromatics, english musicians tend to g/d diatonics but i have no clue what french music would use. any ideas anyone? thanks derek and yes, i am suffering from 'Multiple Instrument Aquisition Disorder'.. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1255 - Release Date: 2008-02-01 09:59
Re: [HG] accordion tuning
It's a kit from a shop in Minnesota, Musicmaker's: http://www.harpkit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGYCategory_Code=hurdy It's a flatback, two drones and two chanters. No trompette. 12 keys. Walnut with a sitka spruce soundboard. So it's lacking features that many people find desirable, but I think for the kind of playing I want to do, it'll be fine. And it was in our price range, which is, after all, the important thing. And I'm not quite as bucolic as you imply -- my tractor does have an electric starter. :) Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED] Geeze can’t keep a secret on the net. Lucky you to have a builder in the family. What style is he building? I suppose you already know how to crank a tractor ;-] Fi
Re: [HG] accordion tuning
Kathy-- My homemade HG lacks a trompette, and it still gets the job done. Players with more experience than I have (and it won't take much!) may disagree, but I think the trompette functions much as a rhythm adjunct; it nicely in accents particular beats, especially in dance tunes, while adding to the harmonic ambience. Regards, Leonard Williams, Rank Beginner On 2/2/08 3:00 PM, Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a kit from a shop in Minnesota, Musicmaker's: http://www.harpkit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGYCategory_Code=hurdy It's a flatback, two drones and two chanters. No trompette. 12 keys. Walnut with a sitka spruce soundboard. So it's lacking features that many people find desirable, but I think for the kind of playing I want to do, it'll be fine. And it was in our price range, which is, after all, the important thing. And I'm not quite as bucolic as you imply -- my tractor does have an electric starter. :) Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED] Geeze can¹t keep a secret on the net. Lucky you to have a builder in the family. What style is he building? I suppose you already know how to crank a tractor ;-] Fi
was: Re: [HG] accordion tuning
Hello, please, if you change topic, like from from accordion tuning to something else, also change the mail header. thanks S. Am 02.02.2008 um 21:44 schrieb Leonard Williams: Kathy-- My homemade HG lacks a trompette, and it still gets the job done. Players with more experience than I have (and it won't take much!) may disagree, but I think the trompette functions much as a rhythm adjunct; it nicely in accents particular beats, especially in dance tunes, while adding to the harmonic ambience. Regards, Leonard Williams, Rank Beginner On 2/2/08 3:00 PM, Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a kit from a shop in Minnesota, Musicmaker's: http://www.harpkit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc? Screen=CTGYCategory_Code=hurdy It's a flatback, two drones and two chanters. No trompette. 12 keys. Walnut with a sitka spruce soundboard. So it's lacking features that many people find desirable, but I think for the kind of playing I want to do, it'll be fine. And it was in our price range, which is, after all, the important thing. And I'm not quite as bucolic as you imply -- my tractor does have an electric starter. :) Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED] Geeze can’t keep a secret on the net. Lucky you to have a builder in the family. What style is he building? I suppose you already know how to crank a tractor ;-] Fi --- have a look at: http://hurdygurdywiki.wiki-site.com http://drehleierwiki.wiki-site.com --- my site: http://simonwascher.info
hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
Nice kit. The price is good too considering the price of the finished product. Is the trompette the dog thingy? (ok I'm a newby and totally ignorant) So what sort of playing do you want to do? Do you play out or are you a closet instrumentalist? Fi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kathy Hutchins It's a kit from a shop in Minnesota, Musicmaker's: http://www.harpkit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGYCategory_Code=hurdy It's a flatback, two drones and two chanters. No trompette. 12 keys. Walnut with a sitka spruce soundboard. So it's lacking features that many people find desirable, but I think for the kind of playing I want to do, it'll be fine. And it was in our price range, which is, after all, the important thing. Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
When buying (or thinking of) it's a good idea to ask here first. The comments regarding these kits are generally unfavourable unless you just want the fun of making something and you have the skill to do all the rest of the work needed to get it playing (and the extra money). It's likely it will cost the same as one from a maker by the time it's playable (and needs a lot of time spent as well). You will probably need an experienced player to actually set it up as well or there is little chance of it being playable (at least by someone new to HGs). Have a look in the archives for the number of time the list has been asked should I buy a kit? and the responses. The answer is nearly always NO if you actually want to play it. I'm sure other list members will add to this but, as you are new to the list, the warning is appropriate, I think. Yes, it's the doggy thing, Colin Hill - Original Message - From: Marsbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 11:32 PM Subject: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning Nice kit. The price is good too considering the price of the finished product. Is the trompette the dog thingy? (ok I'm a newby and totally ignorant) So what sort of playing do you want to do? Do you play out or are you a closet instrumentalist? Fi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kathy Hutchins It's a kit from a shop in Minnesota, Musicmaker's: http://www.harpkit.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGYCategory_Code=hurdy It's a flatback, two drones and two chanters. No trompette. 12 keys. Walnut with a sitka spruce soundboard. So it's lacking features that many people find desirable, but I think for the kind of playing I want to do, it'll be fine. And it was in our price range, which is, after all, the important thing. Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [HG] accordion tuning
thanks Simon, i was thinking perhaps 2 diatonics was the answer. I think for my purposes, because i also play a lot of irish and english music B/C or D#/D chromatic is the way to go. Of course i could always just not get an accordion and learn to play the instruments i already own. and thanks for not derailing the thread.. derek - Original Message - From: Simon Wascher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [HG] accordion tuning Hello, about accordeons and hurdy gurdy:
Re: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
From: Marsbar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nice kit. The price is good too considering the price of the finished product. Is the trompette the dog thingy? (ok I'm a newby and totally ignorant) Yes, the trompette is the string that makes the buzzing effect. So what sort of playing do you want to do? Do you play out or are you a closet instrumentalist? With the hurdy gurdy, it'll mostly be Renaissance, Morris dance type stuff, in ensemble with other period musicians. I'm in the minstrels' guild at a Renaissance festival in Virginia, where my main instrument is harp, but when I said I might have a HG by the time the festival opens in May they all started fantasizing about how we might use it. Kathy Hutchins [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning
I know a lot a people who have bought various kits and made the instruments. Many of them have been happy with the results even though the instrument often requires a fair bit of tweaking. What is it about the hurdy gurdy that makes it particularly unsuited to kit form. Is it the lack of the trompette or the complex mechanicals? Fi -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2008 1:41 PM To: hg@hurdygurdy.com Subject: Re: hurdy gurdy kits was RE: [HG] accordion tuning Being polite is nice , But Telling the truth saves money , The MusicMaker Kit is just way too expensive for what it really is . This is as polite as I can be , on that subject . Morris tunes with out the chien will be like drum without drumsticks . Henry
