Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
Talking that HL 2 is new engine from the scratch is just marketing buzz, personally I think that at it's core it's still Q1. Why? This is what I found out: Read here about license http://www.gamespot.com/features/halflife_final/part22.html Read here about current Half Life 1 implemntation http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?go=q1_or_q2 Read here about John Carmaks opinion http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/johnc/Recent%20Updates There are still remaining bits of Quake 1 scaterred trough all the Half-Life 1/2. For example .qc file script used for model compiling (maybe in early stages studiomdl used parts of QuakeC parser)(BOTH); BSP file fromat(BOTH); extended WAD file format (HL1). It's evident that map compiling tools have evolved from Quake 1 ones. Even Hammer started as WorldCraft, Quake 1 editing tool. Half Life 1 seems like Quake 1 engine core with pluggable renderers (SW/HW/D3D) implemented in similar way like NPRQuake (http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/) which together form raw world engine. Valve's addition is skeletaly animated model studiomdl (Studio = reference to 3D Studio MAX used for modelling, MDL = original name of Id's model format (?)) rendered into raw world using engine core. Model format doesn't support morphing (disadvantage). This raw world engine is slightly modified to use WAD textures with cutom palettes and BSP files with colored lights (small modification replicated in many GPLed Quake 1 mutants). Second addition is EAX sound code. I think that most of this code is realized in C language. Third Valve's addition is set of C++ classes sitting on top of this engine which creates the real game. Entities are implemented in similar way like the ones in Quake 1 but instead of QuakeC C++ is used. There is absolutly new AI pathfinding code which uses node navigation and AI uses couple of before unseen tricks like talking NPC's (bone moved mouth). Parts of this C++ game sources are distributed like HL1 SDK. Later Valve added VGUI support, detail textures an couple of minor improvements. Half-Life 2 seems like extended Half-Life 1. Core seems the same with extended limits (bigger maps, more wpolys) and some modifications. Now the BSP splits level according to logical units, not the pixel ones (so you can safely scale textures without causing unnecesary wpoly subdivision) and light map scale genration can be controled from editor. Portal entity added which is able to turn on of rendering of leafs behind it. Wpoly subdivision added so now engine is more landscape friendly (propably generated on the fly using vertex shader and heightmap). OpenGL render is removed (propably because GLSL language wasn't availible and maybe because OpenGL is more CPU intensive too). Software render might be present (some cvars/commands are mentioned on the net). Textures mapped onto wpoly are now controled with VMF file. Core has been modified to use pixel shaders too. Most evident addition is modified HAVOK physics engine which greatly extends gameplay. Model format is extended studiomdl one. It supports morphing now (reffered as FLEX; morphing seems to be only way to create believable facial animations in games, emotions in HL2 are possible by blending multiple morph targets together). Every vertex of the model is now weighted (can be moved by multiple bones in differend amount, vertex skinning support; realisticaly simulates muscles). Model has physics collision mesh which allow it to interact with raw world. AI seems the same as HL1 with some minor additions. New subsytem for human characters based on this work at http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/facedemo/ (needs java) was added and it uses that theory with facemorphs. Conclusion Half-Life 2 is not a new engine at all. Rather, it is an heavy modified Half-Life 1 which is slightly modified Quake 1. So we could say it's very revamped Quake 1. Personally I think that Quake is quite good engine. It can be extended heavily and it can evolve naturally (Half-Life1,Half-Life2,Mutants). Look at some other GPLed Quake mutants at http://tenebrae.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=screenshots.txt http://www.tenebrae2.com/ and http://www.tenebrae2.com/tb2_screenshots.html http://www.icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/screenshots.html So theoretically you could acheive same results by using one of these ports, adding physics like ODE http://www.ode.org/, adding skeletaly animated and moph supporting model rendering. However amount of coding work would be quite high, very high I think. So there is Half-Life 2 with all this features included, tested, debuged and with big(money), succesful, and supporting company behind, like Valve is. It's best way to go. BTW I'm still interested in opensource/gpl games and I'm very curious whether it's possible to create AAA quality opensource/gpl game. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit:
Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
GREAT article, ET. Very informative ! :D E.T. - Apparition Developper wrote: [..] Half Life 1 seems like Quake 1 engine core with pluggable renderers (SW/HW/D3D) implemented in similar way like NPRQuake (http://www.cs.wisc.edu/graphics/Gallery/NPRQuake/) which together form raw world engine. Valve's addition is skeletaly animated model studiomdl (Studio = reference to 3D Studio MAX used for modelling, MDL = original name of Id's model format (?)) rendered into raw world using engine core. Model format doesn't support morphing (disadvantage). This raw world engine is slightly modified to use WAD textures with cutom palettes and [..] So theoretically you could acheive same results by using one of these ports, adding physics like ODE http://www.ode.org/, adding skeletaly animated and moph supporting model rendering. However amount of coding work would be quite high, very high I think. So there is Half-Life 2 with all this features included, tested, debuged and with big(money), succesful, and supporting company behind, like Valve is. It's best way to go. Yet another reason to work with Source and not a GPL engine its medias. You need giganteous** amounts of work to generate that much and good models, maps, textures, etc.. If you are doing a Quake3 clone, its easy, already exist zimbillions of perfect Quake3 clones, because you only need some random ridiculous textures maps, a few v_weapons and g_weapons, a player model and bot code. But If you are doing anithing different, Its better to have something like Alyx model, or the C17 maps, etc.. AND the huge HL2 userbase to populate your servers. BTW I'm still interested in opensource/gpl games and I'm very curious whether it's possible to create AAA quality opensource/gpl game. AAA not, because need millions dolars, and years manwork. And most people dont build nuclear weapons on the backyard*. But some people sell his house, work hard 8 months and create a nice BB game. I fear creating mods for HL2 can be that cost, because the requirements are soo high that you may need another million dolar to create a good mod (million dolar by money, or by manhours cost). So no, free gamming will never achieve the quality* and size** of commercial games. But dont really need to. Imho. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
Dude, carmack has done the same thing as valve, just took different approaches. Quake - q2 - q3 - d3 Q1 - hl1 - source Carmack chose to stay with opengl and write his own physics engine, valve licensed havoc and switched to directx. -Original Message- From: British_Bomber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 19, 2005 10:23 PM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun! Was the Source engine built on the Q1 engine Michael? I though it was just the naming schemes and class setup were similar in design but the acctual engine was different. Hmm clever how they ported the Q1 engine all the way up to DX9 standards. Does id know about this aswell? They must be kicking themselves for having written the Doom engine rather than just upgrading the Q1 engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
I've had a lot of experience modding both quake1, 2, and 3, (and of course hl1) that I can gather from the tools and hl2's sdk, that while hl1 is primarily still quake, hl2 was definitely based on the hl1 engine source initially, however much has actually been re-written or not isn't the issue; but ontop of that, there are a _lot_ and I mean, a _lot_ of quake2 features in hl2. remember valve ALSO licensed quake2 back when they were working on hl1. some examples that in implementation (and use) seem like a lot of recycled and modified quake2 engine stuff, the biggest that I feel like mentioning are: BSP format - it's much closer to q2 than q1 now. Game physics and interactions with the bsp world function just like quake2, the mask system, the way that BBOX's finally scale up and down based on rotation, etc. lots of similarities. Some of the way the SDK source is layed out is like hl1 and q1 combined, it's too hard to explain it, but take a look at the q2 source (the /game/ source.) and compare it. I lost what I was saying, so I'll just end here. Lol -Original Message- From: E.T. - Apparition Developper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: February 20, 2005 6:28 AM To: hlcoders@list.valvesoftware.com Subject: Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun! There are still remaining bits of Quake 1 scaterred trough all the Half-Life 1/2. For example .qc file script used for model compiling (maybe in early stages studiomdl used parts of QuakeC parser)(BOTH); BSP file fromat(BOTH); extended WAD file format (HL1). -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.1.0 - Release Date: 18/02/2005 ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
Was the Source engine built on the Q1 engine Michael? I though it was just the naming schemes and class setup were similar in design but the acctual engine was different. Hmm clever how they ported the Q1 engine all the way up to DX9 standards. Does id know about this aswell? They must be kicking themselves for having written the Doom engine rather than just upgrading the Q1 engine. ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
The engine is new, but if something worked in Q1 Valve might have decided to keep it. Note that it would be something very minor, and have most of it changed. -- ** Draco Coder for Perfect Dark and Kreedz Climbing http://perfectdark.game-mod.net ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
zt! I'm sorry, but that's the wrong answer. Next contestant please! BZZZT The source engine was build from the ground up by valve. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:00:10 -0800, Michael Hobson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 09:28 PM 2/18/2005, Imperio59 wrote: In theory, Source isn't even related to Quake, since it is a new engine built from the ground up by Valve. It is not even related to HL1, besides the actual look and feel and class design that mimics HL1's, but is totally different under the hood ;) zt! I'm sorry, but that's the wrong answer. Next contestant please! Michael A. Hobson yahoo: warrior_mike2001 icq: #2186709 mike (at) crusader (dash) services (dot) com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
RE: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
Is Source DX7 compatible only so it can someday be ported to X-BOX? (Question from one of my mod members) Source supports DX7 because lots of people had dx7 cards in the various steam hardware surveys we did (GF2, GF2MX, GF4MX, the original Radeon). Also, XBOX is dx8. Jay ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
Re: [hlcoders] RE: Because forks are fun!
At 09:28 PM 2/18/2005, Imperio59 wrote: In theory, Source isn't even related to Quake, since it is a new engine built from the ground up by Valve. It is not even related to HL1, besides the actual look and feel and class design that mimics HL1's, but is totally different under the hood ;) zt! I'm sorry, but that's the wrong answer. Next contestant please! Michael A. Hobson yahoo: warrior_mike2001 icq: #2186709 mike (at) crusader (dash) services (dot) com ___ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlcoders
