Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[Rowedahelicon]

Very happy with the replies here, it's usually been such the opposite. I'll
chime in though!

I'm the same way with my community as many of you guys have. My community
has brought together friends, relationships, irl meetings. A real sense of
community and inclusion, I've had countless people tell me how happy
they've been since finding mine, my corkboard also has a number of holiday
cards I've gotten from members of my community. It's given me a real sense,
like all of my work and input has actually mattered and my life is a little
more valuable as a reuslt.

There's a lot more to it, it's also creativity. All the map makers, model
makers, gamemode makers, programmers, artists, so on and so forth! They all
have a place to stretch their creativity, to find a purpose in a game. It
sounds so sappy, but I'm sure everyone here has some friend they've met in
a game that they cherish.

It's also a big reason why I'm against a lot of the multiplayer games
today, it squanders and limits that creativity, the drive isn't as there as
it was here and other source games. Playing a game like Overwatch is fun,
with friends I've known for years, but soloing it is just empty. You play
with people who you'll never see ever again, they have no reason to be
friendly towards you. It's all dead and monotonous. It also can't go too
far on its own, the content will dry up and people will have to rely on
Blizzard to keep it alive.

TF2 will run it's course one day finally and I am okay with that, the game
didn't start to tank in players and real fun overall until Valve started
messing with their key formula. Valve was built on allowing the users to do
so much, they did these complicated and intricate ARGs, treated the players
with puzzles and trials. Now it's just hand holding, stream lining,
limitations.




On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 6:38 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:

> I think one of the biggest things lost in all this was simply all the
> diversity the game used to offer.
>
> When I first started playing TF2, I quickly got bored with the "Vanilla"
> game, and started perusing the server browser (which most new players don't
> even know exists and/or how to use it) looking for something different. I
> stumbled across Warpath (an acquired taste) hosted on a server where
> teamwork was actually "enforced" by the community members, and ended up
> playing that map/server for several years straight.
>
> It's something I've never really understood - Valve essentially turned the
> game over to the community for new content creation several years ago,
> while at the same time virtually ensuring any new content never sees the
> light of day unless a player happens to stumble across the server browser
> (and even then, most server hosting custom maps have died a slow death -
> our community went from half a dozen to one, and that one is full less than
> half the time it used to be).
>
> What would the mapping scene be like if mappers could actually get their
> maps played on a regular basis? What new game modes would/could have been
> invented if players were actually encouraged to use the server browser?
>
> Honestly, I think what started out as a "quick fix" to stop some bad
> apples from exploiting the system turned into a long-term negative change
> through nothing more than Apathy form the TF2 team - not because they
> stopped caring all together about the game, but simply because none of them
> were ever a part of the kinds of awesome gaming communities they've had a
> hand in killing off, so they had no idea what they were destroying through
> their actions.
>
> It's a real shame, folks - community servers were directly responsible for
> better players all around - both through skill level, and learned teamwork.
> Quickplay really took a sledgehammer to the personality that made TF2
> better than every FPS that came before it.
>
> Is that fixable? Sure it is. Will Valve ever come around to thinking that
> community servers are what's needed to fix it?
>
> I hope sobut I've been hoping so for years now, and the sound of
> silence is deafening.
>
> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 4:56 PM, ics  wrote:
>
>> I'll just chime in and promise this is worth a read too. Long, but here
>> we are.
>>
>> Like i've previously said to those who have been on this list for years,
>> quickplay change emptied all our servers slowly in a period of over a year
>> from all players. Regulars including and even if we try to start up games
>> with regulars, like having some event or simply just going there, one
>> server stays populated about 2-3 hours and then empties out. Even if there
>> are regular players playing, they eventually leave. Nobody likes to play
>> alone or on a near empty server.
>>
>> While someone now says "then it wasn't very good", thing is that
>> quickplay is a driving force that community servers do not have in the same
>> scale as valve servers do. Quickplay has thousands of players coming and
>> going, 

Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[E. Olsen]

I think one of the biggest things lost in all this was simply all the
diversity the game used to offer.

When I first started playing TF2, I quickly got bored with the "Vanilla"
game, and started perusing the server browser (which most new players don't
even know exists and/or how to use it) looking for something different. I
stumbled across Warpath (an acquired taste) hosted on a server where
teamwork was actually "enforced" by the community members, and ended up
playing that map/server for several years straight.

It's something I've never really understood - Valve essentially turned the
game over to the community for new content creation several years ago,
while at the same time virtually ensuring any new content never sees the
light of day unless a player happens to stumble across the server browser
(and even then, most server hosting custom maps have died a slow death -
our community went from half a dozen to one, and that one is full less than
half the time it used to be).

What would the mapping scene be like if mappers could actually get their
maps played on a regular basis? What new game modes would/could have been
invented if players were actually encouraged to use the server browser?

Honestly, I think what started out as a "quick fix" to stop some bad apples
from exploiting the system turned into a long-term negative change through
nothing more than Apathy form the TF2 team - not because they stopped
caring all together about the game, but simply because none of them were
ever a part of the kinds of awesome gaming communities they've had a hand
in killing off, so they had no idea what they were destroying through their
actions.

It's a real shame, folks - community servers were directly responsible for
better players all around - both through skill level, and learned teamwork.
Quickplay really took a sledgehammer to the personality that made TF2
better than every FPS that came before it.

Is that fixable? Sure it is. Will Valve ever come around to thinking that
community servers are what's needed to fix it?

I hope sobut I've been hoping so for years now, and the sound of
silence is deafening.

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 4:56 PM, ics  wrote:

> I'll just chime in and promise this is worth a read too. Long, but here we
> are.
>
> Like i've previously said to those who have been on this list for years,
> quickplay change emptied all our servers slowly in a period of over a year
> from all players. Regulars including and even if we try to start up games
> with regulars, like having some event or simply just going there, one
> server stays populated about 2-3 hours and then empties out. Even if there
> are regular players playing, they eventually leave. Nobody likes to play
> alone or on a near empty server.
>
> While someone now says "then it wasn't very good", thing is that quickplay
> is a driving force that community servers do not have in the same scale as
> valve servers do. Quickplay has thousands of players coming and going,
> while only randomly one of those might get assigned to community servers.
> There are always players who want to play and it assings those players to
> servers. New player might use server browser if we are lucky and join
> community server.
>
> Our servers, used to create value to this game too. They were part of the
> games success in long term. My only crime to get this punishment, was only
> to run a community server itself with custom maps alongside the regular
> official maps. I did not run crap plugins or give players extra hats and
> other effects. No extra speed, no instant spawn, no gimmicks that the bad
> servers did.
>
> I just ran servers where people could play and have more challenge due to
> more seasoned players playing. Teamwork. Something that Valve servers you
> don't get and get a chance to enjoy. This is my usual experience from Valve
> servers and needless to say, i won't stay long.
> http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/442856965057082199/DCD762E97768FC18C3EE28624D3D262962F707CE/
>
> Even if the money flow (revenue from passes and sold keys) is steady from
> TF2 to Valve, they dont' see that the more seasoned players are not playing
> the game much anymore and when those people who play Valve servers now get
> bored and more experienced, they don't find the community server where they
> could have had fun with friends playing the game once they have passed the
> initial stage to more better players. There is no community feeling. People
> like to be part of something, to get higher and have more depth in gaming.
> They find new ways to play but it's always more fun if you have friends you
> know.
>
> The community servers also tied players to play the game in long term. You
> had friends playing the game, you played the game too. Right now several of
> my friends online are playing overwatch together. They all used to play TF2
> together. But nobody likes empty servers. I suspect that once their initial
> 

Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[ics]

I'll just chime in and promise this is worth a read too. Long, but here 
we are.


Like i've previously said to those who have been on this list for years, 
quickplay change emptied all our servers slowly in a period of over a 
year from all players. Regulars including and even if we try to start up 
games with regulars, like having some event or simply just going there, 
one server stays populated about 2-3 hours and then empties out. Even if 
there are regular players playing, they eventually leave. Nobody likes 
to play alone or on a near empty server.


While someone now says "then it wasn't very good", thing is that 
quickplay is a driving force that community servers do not have in the 
same scale as valve servers do. Quickplay has thousands of players 
coming and going, while only randomly one of those might get assigned to 
community servers. There are always players who want to play and it 
assings those players to servers. New player might use server browser if 
we are lucky and join community server.


Our servers, used to create value to this game too. They were part of 
the games success in long term. My only crime to get this punishment, 
was only to run a community server itself with custom maps alongside the 
regular official maps. I did not run crap plugins or give players extra 
hats and other effects. No extra speed, no instant spawn, no gimmicks 
that the bad servers did.


I just ran servers where people could play and have more challenge due 
to more seasoned players playing. Teamwork. Something that Valve servers 
you don't get and get a chance to enjoy. This is my usual experience 
from Valve servers and needless to say, i won't stay long. 
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/442856965057082199/DCD762E97768FC18C3EE28624D3D262962F707CE/ 



Even if the money flow (revenue from passes and sold keys) is steady 
from TF2 to Valve, they dont' see that the more seasoned players are not 
playing the game much anymore and when those people who play Valve 
servers now get bored and more experienced, they don't find the 
community server where they could have had fun with friends playing the 
game once they have passed the initial stage to more better players. 
There is no community feeling. People like to be part of something, to 
get higher and have more depth in gaming. They find new ways to play but 
it's always more fun if you have friends you know.


The community servers also tied players to play the game in long term. 
You had friends playing the game, you played the game too. Right now 
several of my friends online are playing overwatch together. They all 
used to play TF2 together. But nobody likes empty servers. I suspect 
that once their initial "enthusiasm" for overwatch has passed, they 
propably go play it alone, and eventually stop because they have 
achieved their goals and had their fun. This is where the community 
servers usually would come up that would prolong their interests. This 
is something that TF2 also no longer have in the scale it might have it.


Our community servers have also spawned real life meetings. First 
between admins, then with admins and players, and these days it's a 
meetup every year or sometimes even twice. More and more people each 
year. I know atleast one couple who met on our servers, and they are 
seriously been dating for atleast over a year now. They lived different 
parts of the country but met on our server. There are also others i know 
that have met. Connecting people like this is something that the Valve 
servers won't do.


Trade servers are ever popular, because players find fellow traders and 
people who like to show off their stuff for others. You might want to 
show off your new unusual hat on a community server to your friends, 
surprise them and make them jealous. You find other people who 
regularely play on the community servers (like svdl on ours) and have 
made items to the game. You would have to ask him but would he have ever 
gotten into item making for TF2 without community servers if there would 
have been Valve servers since the start?


While he plays on ours and people see him, people go wow and that might 
encourage some and get the "hey i could do those too!". You might ask 
"what is this map" and someone say "it's that guy on the other team who 
did this" and they go "really, how did you do this" and think they could 
do that too. I certainly would never had gotten into mapping for TF2, if 
i wouldn't have started doing it before on CS Source.


The reason that i got into mapmaking, was that i wanted to make 
something for players to play on and enjoy. It was step forward for me, 
because i got the basic game handled and i wanted something more. First 
it was running servers, then making maps. I never would have stayed in 
the path i'm now without community servers. All these experiences are in 
danger to get left off now. Granted, there will still be communities, 
but not in the scale like they used 

Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[Rowedahelicon]

This is great, I'm so happy someone finally did something like that.
Excellent work <3

On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 11:28 AM, pilger  wrote:

> We had a very lengthy debate over that with my community last week. I
> agree with pretty much everything. Nicely done, Mr. *Scatterbrain*.
>
>
> _pilger
>
> On 17 June 2016 at 11:45,  wrote:
>
>> I very much agreed with what you said in the video, in how community
>> servers have sadly suffered.
>>
>> I think Valve is trying to start to patch up the wounds it's left on
>> community servers since they announced the new GSLT system for TF2,
>> giving trusted servers "extra features", which I think might get people
>> investing in server hardware and starting up communities up again.
>>
>> Only time will tell what is going to happen to community servers, but
>> we'll always be around in one way or another.
>>
>> On 17/06/2016 14:11, Saint K. wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I'd just like to point you to an (what I think) is an excellent
>> analysis of the Quickplay problems, the mistakes that have been made and
>> how this has hurt communities and community building.
>> >
>> > Machine vs. Man - The mistakes of quickplay and the value of community
>> servers
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQLq7acFhE
>> >
>> > Please share your thoughts on this topic after you've watched the
>> analysis. As an early 90's-and on- gamer I cannot help but feel that the
>> creator of this video hit's the nail right on its head.
>> >
>> > Call me nostalgic, but I think he makes a very valid point and I hope
>> VALVe and other developers will take notice of this analysis.
>> >
>> > In short; We miss community building as it used to be.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Saint K.
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> please visit:
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>>
>
>
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>


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Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[pilger]

We had a very lengthy debate over that with my community last week. I agree
with pretty much everything. Nicely done, Mr. *Scatterbrain*.


_pilger

On 17 June 2016 at 11:45,  wrote:

> I very much agreed with what you said in the video, in how community
> servers have sadly suffered.
>
> I think Valve is trying to start to patch up the wounds it's left on
> community servers since they announced the new GSLT system for TF2,
> giving trusted servers "extra features", which I think might get people
> investing in server hardware and starting up communities up again.
>
> Only time will tell what is going to happen to community servers, but
> we'll always be around in one way or another.
>
> On 17/06/2016 14:11, Saint K. wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'd just like to point you to an (what I think) is an excellent analysis
> of the Quickplay problems, the mistakes that have been made and how this
> has hurt communities and community building.
> >
> > Machine vs. Man - The mistakes of quickplay and the value of community
> servers
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQLq7acFhE
> >
> > Please share your thoughts on this topic after you've watched the
> analysis. As an early 90's-and on- gamer I cannot help but feel that the
> creator of this video hit's the nail right on its head.
> >
> > Call me nostalgic, but I think he makes a very valid point and I hope
> VALVe and other developers will take notice of this analysis.
> >
> > In short; We miss community building as it used to be.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Saint K.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[tohruadachi]

I very much agreed with what you said in the video, in how community
servers have sadly suffered.

I think Valve is trying to start to patch up the wounds it's left on
community servers since they announced the new GSLT system for TF2,
giving trusted servers "extra features", which I think might get people
investing in server hardware and starting up communities up again.

Only time will tell what is going to happen to community servers, but
we'll always be around in one way or another.

On 17/06/2016 14:11, Saint K. wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'd just like to point you to an (what I think) is an excellent analysis of 
> the Quickplay problems, the mistakes that have been made and how this has 
> hurt communities and community building.
>
> Machine vs. Man - The mistakes of quickplay and the value of community servers
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQLq7acFhE
>
> Please share your thoughts on this topic after you've watched the analysis. 
> As an early 90's-and on- gamer I cannot help but feel that the creator of 
> this video hit's the nail right on its head.
>
> Call me nostalgic, but I think he makes a very valid point and I hope VALVe 
> and other developers will take notice of this analysis.
>
> In short; We miss community building as it used to be.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Saint K.
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
> visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



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Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[hl2mukkel]

Those are some very interesting points! Just realized, tf2 in the past felt
so different and this explains why.. Really good job at pointing this out.

I've also made a video on "past maps" which were buried together with
community servers:

TF2 - Forgotten Maps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvHqRyyn4E0

NOTE: Valve did add hydro (Quickplay -> Alternative), they are certainly
listening and I am not to blame people/valve.

As you can see with 50k views though, we're not the only ones missing on
community servers.


Cheers,

Aron


On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 3:11 PM, Saint K.  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd just like to point you to an (what I think) is an excellent analysis
> of the Quickplay problems, the mistakes that have been made and how this
> has hurt communities and community building.
>
> Machine vs. Man - The mistakes of quickplay and the value of community
> servers
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQLq7acFhE
>
> Please share your thoughts on this topic after you've watched the
> analysis. As an early 90's-and on- gamer I cannot help but feel that the
> creator of this video hit's the nail right on its head.
>
> Call me nostalgic, but I think he makes a very valid point and I hope
> VALVe and other developers will take notice of this analysis.
>
> In short; We miss community building as it used to be.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Saint K.
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
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Re: [hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[John Irwin]

Very reasonable video, Heartily agree with a lot of it. Favorited it (which
incidentally means 4.5K people on twitter may see it too). Tempted to check
out SpA this weekend too.
GHLF
Agro

On 17 June 2016 at 14:11, Saint K.  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'd just like to point you to an (what I think) is an excellent analysis
> of the Quickplay problems, the mistakes that have been made and how this
> has hurt communities and community building.
>
> Machine vs. Man - The mistakes of quickplay and the value of community
> servers
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQLq7acFhE
>
> Please share your thoughts on this topic after you've watched the
> analysis. As an early 90's-and on- gamer I cannot help but feel that the
> creator of this video hit's the nail right on its head.
>
> Call me nostalgic, but I think he makes a very valid point and I hope
> VALVe and other developers will take notice of this analysis.
>
> In short; We miss community building as it used to be.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Saint K.
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>



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Re: [hlds] Heads Up: Minimum Requirements Changing for Linux TF2 and SDK2013 Dedicated Server

[AnAkkk]

Is this still planned?

2016-03-15 21:30 GMT+01:00 John Schoenick :

> Hi everyone,
>
> The current Linux TF2/SDK2013 dedicated server is a bit odd, shipping a
> dedicated-only build of the source engine that targets a very old toolchain
> for maximal compatibility.  This setup predates the Steam Runtime and the
> widespread availability of container setups like Docker that make it
> trivial to run apps in alternate environments.
>
> We're planning on obsoleting this setup, and shipping a unified build[1]
> between clients and servers that targets the current Steam Runtime[2]
>
> What this means for you:
>
>
> *1) If your distro is not binary compatible[3] with the Steam Runtime
> (based on Ubuntu 12 LTS) you may need to update your setup to continue
> running TF2 servers. *There are several options for this.
> - Switch to a Ubuntu 12 LTS based distro
> - Create a Steam Runtime chroot or container (e.g. Docker) to run your
> servers.
> - Package a copy of the Steam Runtime for your servers and invoke the
> server with a modified environment ( env
> LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$RUNTIME"/usr/lib/ "$RUNTIME"/usr/lib/ld-linux.so.2
> ./srcds_linux ... )
> - Etc
>
> See the Steam Runtime page[2] for more information on setup and usage.
>
> *2) If you have mods or scripts that are hard-coded to expect "_srv"
> binaries, they will need to be fixed*
>
> We plan on working with the SourceMod team to ensure their tools continue
> to function, but server operators will likely need to update when this
> occurs. Other tools or scripts that are hard coded to "_srv" may need
> fixing.
>
> *When**?*
> The plan is to begin shipping builds based requiring the Steam Runtime in
> the next few months, so we encourage server operators to begin looking into
> their setups ASAP.
>
> Non-TF2 SDK2013 games will likely be switched to this setup some time
> after TF2, as it becomes necessary to maintain compatibility with the Steam
> SDK.
>
> Let me know if you have any questions or concerns
> - John
>
> [1] Meaning, one client.so and server.so and associated engine, rather
> than a separate "_srv.so" build of the entire system for dedicated servers.
> [2] https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-runtime
> [3] Binary compatibility largely meaning new-enough
> gcc-libs/libc/libstdc++, but also some supporting libraries like ncurses.
>
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[hlds] Where VALVe (and other developers) went wrong - an analysis on Quickplay-alike systems

[Saint K.]

Hi all,

I'd just like to point you to an (what I think) is an excellent analysis of the 
Quickplay problems, the mistakes that have been made and how this has hurt 
communities and community building.

Machine vs. Man - The mistakes of quickplay and the value of community servers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHQLq7acFhE

Please share your thoughts on this topic after you've watched the analysis. As 
an early 90's-and on- gamer I cannot help but feel that the creator of this 
video hit's the nail right on its head.

Call me nostalgic, but I think he makes a very valid point and I hope VALVe and 
other developers will take notice of this analysis.

In short; We miss community building as it used to be.

Cheers,

Saint K.


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