[homenet] Off topic [was: Layering [was: Despair]]

2015-08-09 Thread Brian E Carpenter
On 09/08/2015 09:04, Geoff Thompson wrote:

...
 The success of the (reasonably well layered) TCP/IP suite would indicate
 that the market has decided that this is a cost well worth paying.
 
 Precisely my point, except that it is not true.  The datagram service that 
 was provided for with such success by TCP/IP does not provide the same 
 service over all physical layers.  In fact the now predominant physical 
 layers do not provide sufficiently low-jitter, low loss service for all 
 legacy services to work well.

You mean, sufficient compared with 4800 baud modems over spotty analogue
phone lines, which were predominant when those legacy apps, right up
to HTTP/1.0, were invented?

What don't work well are *modern* services invented for broadband, in
the absence of anything accurately described as broadband.

But, yes, I hope the final list of requirements for the homenet routing
protocol includes: works adequately on lossy wireless media with poor
multicast support.

Brian

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Re: [homenet] Off topic [was: Layering [was: Despair]]

2015-08-09 Thread Geoff Thompson
Brian-

 On Aug 9, 2015, at 1:19 AMPDT, Brian E Carpenter 
 brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On 09/08/2015 09:04, Geoff Thompson wrote:
 
 ...
 The success of the (reasonably well layered) TCP/IP suite would indicate
 that the market has decided that this is a cost well worth paying.
 
 Precisely my point, except that it is not true.  The datagram service that 
 was provided for with such success by TCP/IP does not provide the same 
 service over all physical layers.  In fact the now predominant physical 
 layers do not provide sufficiently low-jitter, low loss service for all 
 legacy services to work well.
 
 You mean, sufficient compared with 4800 baud modems over spotty analogue
 phone lines, which were predominant when those legacy apps, right up
 to HTTP/1.0, were invented?

Actually, I do. 
First of all, it wasn't that spotty in terms of errors per hour (which is what 
you need to count to factor out data inflation)
and it had a number of secondary characteristics that weren't taken into 
account in formulating the layered model.

 
 What don't work well are *modern* services invented for broadband, in
 the absence of anything accurately described as broadband.

Not really. Communicating time information works much better in a real-time 
circuit switched network than it does in a packet based store and forward 
network.

 
 But, yes, I hope the final list of requirements for the homenet routing
 protocol includes: works adequately on lossy wireless media with poor
 multicast support.
 
Brian

Geoff


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