Re: [HOT] Highway=track
Thanks John. Well-Noted. The conventons for roads here in Uganda are well-administrated by us through Ugand Bureau of Statistics, who hope to one day be the first country in the world to do a national census through OSM conventions. We are trying to support them to the utmost with this, by trainings and collaborations which fit with their agenda. It would be an exciting goal to reach, and we shall try our very best to make it possible by 2022. Meanwhile, there is much work to do, accurately mapping the swift evolution of new geographies amongst the refugee settlement of the northern districts. Best, Rupert On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:11 PM, john whelan wrote: > Note to Robert I think you have to divide the mapping into parts. The > first is simple instructions that mappers can follow. In HOT in particular > we have a huge turnover of mappers and I think for the most part new > mappers look at the options presented in iD and chose, I won't say randomly > but it can be close sometimes. > > So basically stage one is get something mapped. Hopefully with a tag that > is roughly correct. The African highway wiki is a good guideline for > this. Note you can opt out of the African highway mapping guideline but > armchair mappers they are used to it so might prefer to map elsewhere if > its something else to learn. > > Stage two is tag the untagged ways. Currently there are some 1,063 > untagged ways in Uganda, most will be highways and 785 untagged with > comments so probably the majority are area=yes. A ten percent sample of > Uganda gave 870? duplicate buildings so a rough estimate might be 8,700 > duplicate buildings. I have been working on reducing the number of > untagged ways in Uganda but these are the number remaining as of today. > There will be roughly 2,000 crossing highways selecting > unclassified/residential and above. > > Stage three is the local mappers who are the technical authority for > tagging make decisions about tags. As Frederik Ramm has mentioned it is a > balancing act between respecting the local mappers desires and making sure > it works with the larger infrastructure. So if you want to use OSMand to > see where the highways are you'd better make sure that it displays the tag > you want at the zoom level you'd like. Since service highways are normally > considered not terribly important you may find that they only show up when > zoomed in. So you you have the freedom to choose but there are > implications. > > Stage four local mappers clean up the highway tags to those you think are > appropriate. > > Cheerio John > > > On 27 December 2017 at 13:15, Rupert Allan > wrote: > >> Dear All, >> >> We are following this discussion on Highways with interest in Uganda. I >> am awaiting further input on 'service roads' from Uganda Bureau of >> Statistics and other national and regional bodies with many years of >> experience, and we are also learning through community field mapping on the >> ground. >> >> Meanwhile, Re. 'Humanitarian Presets in OSM': >> >> The immediate reaction to the idea of custom presets for HOT is, I think >> positive. Input from HOT_Uganda is that in large refugee settlements, there >> are admin levels which have some conflicting tags, for instance a village >> has become the term at admin level 4 which signifies a whole area of >> settlement, around what was initially one village, but has now become a >> huge camp with sometimes hundreds of thousands of people. In Uganda, >> villages all have related borders, so in rural areas you cannot be 'outside >> of a village' (you would be in the next village if you crossed the >> 'border' as it were). >> >> So they can be huge in terms of population. If they are designated a >> 'Refugee Community' (RC) Settlement, they then get divided into Zones, >> sometimes Points, Blocks and sometimes 'Tanks' (N.G.O. Water Tanks) - >> although there is an instance right now where the tanks are being taken >> away, as the water provision becomes piped. I am awaiting feedback on what >> convention the community will adopt. >> >> Anyway, this differs completely from the national system, (Local >> Council/LC), where admin levels run: 'District, (County), Subcounty, >> Parish, Village'. We survey both, and have a divide in our survey, with a >> different set of questions/name choice tags which we are evolving as we >> work. We would appreciate making sure these refugee conventions merge with >> other specifically humanitarian conventions in other contexts around the >> world. >> N.B. Even within these North Uganda settlements, addressing changes from >> one settlement to the next, sometimes even when settlements are >> neighbouring. >> >> I shall post some more information and some kind of table on the Wiki, as >> things unfold here, but the main point is that 'Yes, certain >> Humanitarian-Specific tags would be most useful to us'. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> >> Rupert >> >> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 4:53 PM, john whelan >> wrote: >>
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
Note to Robert I think you have to divide the mapping into parts. The first is simple instructions that mappers can follow. In HOT in particular we have a huge turnover of mappers and I think for the most part new mappers look at the options presented in iD and chose, I won't say randomly but it can be close sometimes. So basically stage one is get something mapped. Hopefully with a tag that is roughly correct. The African highway wiki is a good guideline for this. Note you can opt out of the African highway mapping guideline but armchair mappers they are used to it so might prefer to map elsewhere if its something else to learn. Stage two is tag the untagged ways. Currently there are some 1,063 untagged ways in Uganda, most will be highways and 785 untagged with comments so probably the majority are area=yes. A ten percent sample of Uganda gave 870? duplicate buildings so a rough estimate might be 8,700 duplicate buildings. I have been working on reducing the number of untagged ways in Uganda but these are the number remaining as of today. There will be roughly 2,000 crossing highways selecting unclassified/residential and above. Stage three is the local mappers who are the technical authority for tagging make decisions about tags. As Frederik Ramm has mentioned it is a balancing act between respecting the local mappers desires and making sure it works with the larger infrastructure. So if you want to use OSMand to see where the highways are you'd better make sure that it displays the tag you want at the zoom level you'd like. Since service highways are normally considered not terribly important you may find that they only show up when zoomed in. So you you have the freedom to choose but there are implications. Stage four local mappers clean up the highway tags to those you think are appropriate. Cheerio John On 27 December 2017 at 13:15, Rupert Allan wrote: > Dear All, > > We are following this discussion on Highways with interest in Uganda. I am > awaiting further input on 'service roads' from Uganda Bureau of Statistics > and other national and regional bodies with many years of experience, and > we are also learning through community field mapping on the ground. > > Meanwhile, Re. 'Humanitarian Presets in OSM': > > The immediate reaction to the idea of custom presets for HOT is, I think > positive. Input from HOT_Uganda is that in large refugee settlements, there > are admin levels which have some conflicting tags, for instance a village > has become the term at admin level 4 which signifies a whole area of > settlement, around what was initially one village, but has now become a > huge camp with sometimes hundreds of thousands of people. In Uganda, > villages all have related borders, so in rural areas you cannot be 'outside > of a village' (you would be in the next village if you crossed the > 'border' as it were). > > So they can be huge in terms of population. If they are designated a > 'Refugee Community' (RC) Settlement, they then get divided into Zones, > sometimes Points, Blocks and sometimes 'Tanks' (N.G.O. Water Tanks) - > although there is an instance right now where the tanks are being taken > away, as the water provision becomes piped. I am awaiting feedback on what > convention the community will adopt. > > Anyway, this differs completely from the national system, (Local > Council/LC), where admin levels run: 'District, (County), Subcounty, > Parish, Village'. We survey both, and have a divide in our survey, with a > different set of questions/name choice tags which we are evolving as we > work. We would appreciate making sure these refugee conventions merge with > other specifically humanitarian conventions in other contexts around the > world. > N.B. Even within these North Uganda settlements, addressing changes from > one settlement to the next, sometimes even when settlements are > neighbouring. > > I shall post some more information and some kind of table on the Wiki, as > things unfold here, but the main point is that 'Yes, certain > Humanitarian-Specific tags would be most useful to us'. > > Best wishes, > > > Rupert > > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 4:53 PM, john whelan > wrote: > >> The first comment is It looks reasonable to me but I'm not the technical >> authority on this one. Pierre might be better. >> >> Second comment is we can invoke a special preset with iD when opened by >> Task Manager. >> >> Realistically the mappers we want to nudge most are those who only map >> once and have very little interest in instructions or web pages. You can >> tell I'm feeling cynical today. >> >> We might do better to come up with a preset for iD that is better suited >> for new mappers. ie drop living_street and footway as options for Africa. >> >> Cheerio John >> >> On 27 December 2017 at 07:44, Bjoern Hassler wrote: >> >>> Hi John, dear friends, >>> >>> Just to add that we've been collecting road mapping tips (and other >>> goodies) here on Google slides (in the HOT
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
Dear All, We are following this discussion on Highways with interest in Uganda. I am awaiting further input on 'service roads' from Uganda Bureau of Statistics and other national and regional bodies with many years of experience, and we are also learning through community field mapping on the ground. Meanwhile, Re. 'Humanitarian Presets in OSM': The immediate reaction to the idea of custom presets for HOT is, I think positive. Input from HOT_Uganda is that in large refugee settlements, there are admin levels which have some conflicting tags, for instance a village has become the term at admin level 4 which signifies a whole area of settlement, around what was initially one village, but has now become a huge camp with sometimes hundreds of thousands of people. In Uganda, villages all have related borders, so in rural areas you cannot be 'outside of a village' (you would be in the next village if you crossed the 'border' as it were). So they can be huge in terms of population. If they are designated a 'Refugee Community' (RC) Settlement, they then get divided into Zones, sometimes Points, Blocks and sometimes 'Tanks' (N.G.O. Water Tanks) - although there is an instance right now where the tanks are being taken away, as the water provision becomes piped. I am awaiting feedback on what convention the community will adopt. Anyway, this differs completely from the national system, (Local Council/LC), where admin levels run: 'District, (County), Subcounty, Parish, Village'. We survey both, and have a divide in our survey, with a different set of questions/name choice tags which we are evolving as we work. We would appreciate making sure these refugee conventions merge with other specifically humanitarian conventions in other contexts around the world. N.B. Even within these North Uganda settlements, addressing changes from one settlement to the next, sometimes even when settlements are neighbouring. I shall post some more information and some kind of table on the Wiki, as things unfold here, but the main point is that 'Yes, certain Humanitarian-Specific tags would be most useful to us'. Best wishes, Rupert On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 4:53 PM, john whelan wrote: > The first comment is It looks reasonable to me but I'm not the technical > authority on this one. Pierre might be better. > > Second comment is we can invoke a special preset with iD when opened by > Task Manager. > > Realistically the mappers we want to nudge most are those who only map > once and have very little interest in instructions or web pages. You can > tell I'm feeling cynical today. > > We might do better to come up with a preset for iD that is better suited > for new mappers. ie drop living_street and footway as options for Africa. > > Cheerio John > > On 27 December 2017 at 07:44, Bjoern Hassler wrote: > >> Hi John, dear friends, >> >> Just to add that we've been collecting road mapping tips (and other >> goodies) here on Google slides (in the HOT drive): >> http://bjohas.de/go/mmintro (see p. 65). >> >> We've said this: >> >> >>- >> >>Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / >>residential / track (not path) >>- >> >>Does it connect distinct villages/areas where people live (running >>between and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential >>/ not track) >>- >> >>Does the road only run within a village or residential area (not a >>through-road) → residential >>- >> >>Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track >>- >> >>Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path >> >> Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs >> are unclassified or residential (not path). >> >> Do you all agree? >> Bjoern >> >> On 21 Dec 2017 15:44, "john whelan" wrote: >> >> It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher >> zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is >> frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki. >> >> If it connects settlements then according to >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa >> >> it is not a track. >> >> unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default. >> >> Cheerio John >> >> ___ >> HOT mailing list >> HOT@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> >> >> > > ___ > HOT mailing list > HOT@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > > -- Rupert Allan Country Manager - Uganda E-Mail: rupert.al...@hotosm.org East Africa: +256 792 297795/+256777656999 UK: +44 7970 540 647 Skype: Reuben Molotov Web/Blog: www.rupertallan.com HF Radio Call-Sign: 24VN3 Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development web | twitter | facebook | donate Help us #mapthedifference by Dec. 31 web | twitter | facebook | don Missing Maps is a
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
The first comment is It looks reasonable to me but I'm not the technical authority on this one. Pierre might be better. Second comment is we can invoke a special preset with iD when opened by Task Manager. Realistically the mappers we want to nudge most are those who only map once and have very little interest in instructions or web pages. You can tell I'm feeling cynical today. We might do better to come up with a preset for iD that is better suited for new mappers. ie drop living_street and footway as options for Africa. Cheerio John On 27 December 2017 at 07:44, Bjoern Hassler wrote: > Hi John, dear friends, > > Just to add that we've been collecting road mapping tips (and other > goodies) here on Google slides (in the HOT drive): > http://bjohas.de/go/mmintro (see p. 65). > > We've said this: > > >- > >Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / >residential / track (not path) >- > >Does it connect distinct villages/areas where people live (running >between and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential >/ not track) >- > >Does the road only run within a village or residential area (not a >through-road) → residential >- > >Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track >- > >Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path > > Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs > are unclassified or residential (not path). > > Do you all agree? > Bjoern > > On 21 Dec 2017 15:44, "john whelan" wrote: > > It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher > zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is > frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki. > > If it connects settlements then according to > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa > > it is not a track. > > unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default. > > Cheerio John > > ___ > HOT mailing list > HOT@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > > > ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
Hi John, dear friends, Just to add that we've been collecting road mapping tips (and other goodies) here on Google slides (in the HOT drive): http://bjohas.de/go/mmintro (see p. 65). We've said this: - Can it be passed by a vehicle? → unclassified (or better) / residential / track (not path) - Does it connect distinct villages/areas where people live (running between and through villages)? → Unclassified or better (not residential / not track) - Does the road only run within a village or residential area (not a through-road) → residential - Does the road only run to fields (agric. use)? → track - Is it not passable by car (4x4)? → path Note: A metal roof arrives by vehicle → roads to houses with metal roofs are unclassified or residential (not path). Do you all agree? Bjoern On 21 Dec 2017 15:44, "john whelan" wrote: It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki. If it connects settlements then according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa it is not a track. unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default. Cheerio John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
Apparently iD can be invoked with customised presets. Another item on the TM3 to do list perhaps. Cheerio John On 26 December 2017 at 18:07, yo paseopor wrote: > I think We need some preset for JOSM or customized iD for these HOT custom > project or specific zone configurations. > > Salut i presets (Health and presets) > yopaseopor > > ___ > HOT mailing list > HOT@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > > ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
I think We need some preset for JOSM or customized iD for these HOT custom project or specific zone configurations. Salut i presets (Health and presets) yopaseopor ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
I should have mentioned highway=path as an acceptable alternative. What I do see when validating though is a large number of highways connecting settlements that are labeled tracks many of which look wide enough for a 4 by 4 and these I feel should be labelled something else. Cheerio John On 21 December 2017 at 21:25, Philippe Verdy wrote: > There may be exceptions if the tracks are not praticable at all by > vehicles (including motorbikes). They should however not even be tracks but > just paths if they are just usable by horses or usable sportively by > mountainbikes. > Not all houses or even villages are linked by unpaved tracks=minor roads. > This happens in Africa as well as Asia, but there are also some examples in > Europe in mountains for some old villages that are nearly deserted, with > just some agricultral buildings (mostly used as shelters for animals, but > sometimes occupied to receive walking tourists in summer). > > If the houses in Africa are non-permanently inhabited and are just > seasonal shelters, the tracks connecting them may be in fact just paths, > used sometimes by roaming animal breeders or workers in forests: the > equipement is very minimalist (including for sanitisation or drinkable > water, just collected in nearby rivers) and the rest of the time the tracks > will not be maintained or could be vegetated. They will become visible > again during short periods of activity. > > > > 2017-12-21 16:41 GMT+01:00 john whelan : > >> It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher >> zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is >> frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki. >> >> If it connects settlements then according to >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa >> >> it is not a track. >> >> unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default. >> >> Cheerio John >> >> ___ >> HOT mailing list >> HOT@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> >> > ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
Re: [HOT] Highway=track
There may be exceptions if the tracks are not praticable at all by vehicles (including motorbikes). They should however not even be tracks but just paths if they are just usable by horses or usable sportively by mountainbikes. Not all houses or even villages are linked by unpaved tracks=minor roads. This happens in Africa as well as Asia, but there are also some examples in Europe in mountains for some old villages that are nearly deserted, with just some agricultral buildings (mostly used as shelters for animals, but sometimes occupied to receive walking tourists in summer). If the houses in Africa are non-permanently inhabited and are just seasonal shelters, the tracks connecting them may be in fact just paths, used sometimes by roaming animal breeders or workers in forests: the equipement is very minimalist (including for sanitisation or drinkable water, just collected in nearby rivers) and the rest of the time the tracks will not be maintained or could be vegetated. They will become visible again during short periods of activity. 2017-12-21 16:41 GMT+01:00 john whelan : > It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher > zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is > frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki. > > If it connects settlements then according to > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa > > it is not a track. > > unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default. > > Cheerio John > > ___ > HOT mailing list > HOT@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > > ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
[HOT] Highway=track
It's come up in the OSMand mailing list that these aren't shown at higher zoom levels. Whilst mapping specifically just for the rendering system is frowned on in this case it is supported by the wiki. If it connects settlements then according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Highway_Tag_Africa it is not a track. unclassified or minor road surface unpaved is a reasonable default. Cheerio John ___ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
