Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Jason Dodd]

I forgot.

Proposed Changes

2) Remove default "explicit" tag from the form
My thinking is it should default to explicit because it's worse to publish
something as non explicit if it is explicit than it is to do the reverse. I
would be ok with a per host default though.  In that case, I suggest
defaulting existing hosts to explicit unless that change their default.

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 6:45 PM Jason Dodd  wrote:

> Proposed Changes
>
> 1) Change upload form to require tags
> I don't mind tags.  At the same time I don't find them kind of useless
> unless the tags themselves are curated so that I get a list to chose from
> and don't have to create new ones all the time.  I typically find that
> searching the whole posts give me better results when I'm looking for
> something.
>
> But don't let that stop you. I'm for requiring at least one tag.
>
> 2) Remove default "explicit" tag from the form
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 2:46 PM Ken Fallon  wrote:
>
>> Following no further feedback, the tags and explicit tags are now
>> flagged as mandatory.
>>
>> THE AYE'S HAVE IT. THE AYE'S HAVE IT. UNLOCK.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ken Fallon
>> http://kenfallon.com
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
>>
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>
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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Jason Dodd]

Proposed Changes

1) Change upload form to require tags
I don't mind tags.  At the same time I don't find them kind of useless
unless the tags themselves are curated so that I get a list to chose from
and don't have to create new ones all the time.  I typically find that
searching the whole posts give me better results when I'm looking for
something.

But don't let that stop you. I'm for requiring at least one tag.

2) Remove default "explicit" tag from the form

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 2:46 PM Ken Fallon  wrote:

> Following no further feedback, the tags and explicit tags are now
> flagged as mandatory.
>
> THE AYE'S HAVE IT. THE AYE'S HAVE IT. UNLOCK.
>
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Ken Fallon
> http://kenfallon.com
> http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30
>
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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Ken Fallon]

Following no further feedback, the tags and explicit tags are now
flagged as mandatory.

THE AYE'S HAVE IT. THE AYE'S HAVE IT. UNLOCK.


-- 
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Ken Fallon
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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Dave Morriss]

On 03/03/19 22:46, cobra2 via Hpr wrote:
> 
> Hey Dave. I think that's a pretty good idea. I just requested that the
> mandatory tag slot be filled with a "fixme" tag in case you get a super
> lazy host.
> 
> Just thinking of my lazy self here.
> 
> --cobra2

Aagh! The thought of hundreds of 'fixme' tags in the database! Nightmare!

In my case I assign tags as I think of a show idea. The show title, the
summary, and other attributes are stored away too. That's so I don't
have to think too much when I get to the point where I eventually send
in that show.

Dave


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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Dave Morriss]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 04/03/19 08:29, Ken Fallon wrote:
> Proposed Changes
> 
> 1) Change upload form to require tags
> 
> 2) Remove default "explicit" tag from the form
> 
> As Ken the host I would like to support the first, and making the
> second a default per host.
> 
> However 
> 
> As Ken the HPR Volunteer I would like to weigh in with some
> counter arguments.
> 
> Firstly making more mandatory fields risks increasing the barrier
> to entry when posting a show. We have always assumed the task of
> filling out additional information so that people only need to
> record a show. This is our prime directive.

You can't force this stuff anyway. I see it more as "encouragement".

> Re 1) Tags
> 
> We already have hosts, new and old alike, adding the same string to
> the summary and show notes field. I suspect that they will just add
> the same string there as well. Furthermore some shows are so short
> that the addition of a tag seems to be superfluous.

Maybe. It probably depends on how we implement a tag searching tool. I
certainly find our tags on archive.org to be a useful way to locate stuff.

> Re 2) Explicit
> 
> The "explicit" field is selected as the default because of the risk
> of the HPR Project getting de-listed if it is not flagged
> correctly.

[snip]

> I would like to propose that this default value be taken from the
> hosts profile. So while Daves would default to Explicit, lostnbronx
> would default to "Clean". The host can always override it for a
> particular show.

I like the default per host idea. It suits my particular brand of
awkwardness ;-)


Dave

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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[cobra2 via Hpr]

 Original Message 
On Mar 3, 2019, 6:07 PM, Dave Morriss wrote:

Hi Everyone,

As you'll be aware, there's a field on the form asking for tags for your
show. The intention is this metadata will be used to help in searching
for show topics once we have redesigned the underlying database. It can
currently be used to find stuff on archive.org because I copy our tags
there too when I upload shows.

If you don't add tags this means that an "HPR Volunteer" has to add
them. Mostly that's me; I need to check the show notes, and listen to
the show to make (what I hope are) suitable tag choices, and the way I
have arranged things I need to do this before uploading the show to
archive.org because I need the tags to pass to them.

At the time of writing there are five new shows in the queue without
tags for which I'll have to be the "tag giver" before archive.org gets
them ;-)

The proposed change is to make the tag field on the upload form
mandatory - in order that show contributors can be reminded to provide
tags at upload time.

I'd like to get some feedback from the HPR Community about whether this
change should go ahead. Please reply to the list. Silence will be
interpreted as "sure, fine, go ahead"!

Dave

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Hey Dave. I think that's a pretty good idea. I just requested that the 
mandatory tag slot be filled with a "fixme" tag in case you get a super lazy 
host.

Just thinking of my lazy self here.

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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Dave Morriss]

On 04/03/19 20:57, NYbill wrote:
> I don't mind that. Sometimes I forget that field. I know on my last
> upload (the first attempt that failed) I put three tags in. But, I can't
> remember now if I added them on the re-upload.
> 
> I saw the talk of the clean/explicit options in this thread as well. It
> would be nice if, when the person hits upload, the page says, "These
> fields are required."
> 
> Forcing some tags and forcing a choice on either clean/explicit.
> 
> (Oh, it would be extra nice if the tags field had a drop down list of
> used tags. I never know if I'm making new ones up. But, I can't code
> that up. :P So, I'm not making more work for anyone else.)
> 
> I'll try and figure out how to add tags now after the fact and go
> through all my old shows to make sure they have some.

Hi Bill,

My (static) page for helping contributors to the Tag and Summary project
is something you should look at. It's at
http://hackerpublicradio.org/report_missing_tags.php

On that (rather long) page you'll find a section which lists shows by
contributor where tags and/or summaries are needed
(http://hackerpublicradio.org/report_missing_tags.php#Hosts). You only
have one show without tags in fact. The page only lists shows which have
been released though, not shows scheduled in the future.

You will also find an alphabetic list of all tags and the shows they are
used in (http://hackerpublicradio.org/report_missing_tags.php#Tags).

Finally, if you want to send in tags (or summaries) you can send an
email formatted as shown at the top of the page to the address mentioned
there, and we'll add them - and refresh the page of course.

Dave


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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Dave Morriss]

On 04/03/19 20:42, Ken Fallon wrote:
> On 2019-03-04 14:21, Michael Spannbauer wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> question: Is there a way to see a list of already in use tags? I would
>> expect filling in tags is much easier when you are inspired by existing
>> ones and you can pick matching ones from that pool. This will probably
>> result in more cross references than when having to come up with good
>> tags on your own.
>>
>> Just an idea.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Michael
> 
> The tags were intended to be a reference to external hash tags rather
> than something we maintain ourselves. If it's a one off episode to mark
> #SomeBigEvent then that tag would link to the global tag rather than
> linking internally on the HPR site.
> 
> It's kind of evolving to something else now where we are linking to
> things internally. There is unlikely to ever be a autocomplete or auto
> suggest for tags, given the fact we avoid javascript on the site.
> 
> You can get to them via http://hackerpublicradio.org/index_full.php

Hi Michael,

Your message never seemed to make it to the HPR mailing list, so I'm
replying via Ken's reply (!).

There is a list of all of the tags currently in the system which I
maintain on the page I designed to help contributors to the tag and
summary project. You can see it here:
http://hackerpublicradio.org/report_missing_tags.php#Tags

I have provided an alphabetic list of tags with the shows that use them.
I hope it helps!

Dave


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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[NYbill]

I don't mind that. Sometimes I forget that field. I know on my last
upload (the first attempt that failed) I put three tags in. But, I can't
remember now if I added them on the re-upload.

I saw the talk of the clean/explicit options in this thread as well. It
would be nice if, when the person hits upload, the page says, "These
fields are required."

Forcing some tags and forcing a choice on either clean/explicit.

(Oh, it would be extra nice if the tags field had a drop down list of
used tags. I never know if I'm making new ones up. But, I can't code
that up. :P So, I'm not making more work for anyone else.)

I'll try and figure out how to add tags now after the fact and go
through all my old shows to make sure they have some.

b

On 3/3/19 5:07 PM, Dave Morriss wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> As you'll be aware, there's a field on the form asking for tags for your
> show. The intention is this metadata will be used to help in searching
> for show topics once we have redesigned the underlying database. It can
> currently be used to find stuff on archive.org because I copy our tags
> there too when I upload shows.
> 
> If you don't add tags this means that an "HPR Volunteer" has to add
> them. Mostly that's me; I need to check the show notes, and listen to
> the show to make (what I hope are) suitable tag choices, and the way I
> have arranged things I need to do this before uploading the show to
> archive.org because I need the tags to pass to them.
> 
> At the time of writing there are five new shows in the queue without
> tags for which I'll have to be the "tag giver" before archive.org gets
> them ;-)
> 
> The proposed change is to make the tag field on the upload form
> mandatory - in order that show contributors can be reminded to provide
> tags at upload time.
> 
> I'd like to get some feedback from the HPR Community about whether this
> change should go ahead. Please reply to the list. Silence will be
> interpreted as "sure, fine, go ahead"!
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
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> 




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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Ken Fallon]

On 2019-03-04 14:21, Michael Spannbauer wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> question: Is there a way to see a list of already in use tags? I would
> expect filling in tags is much easier when you are inspired by existing
> ones and you can pick matching ones from that pool. This will probably
> result in more cross references than when having to come up with good
> tags on your own.
> 
> Just an idea.
> 
> Regards,
> Michael

The tags were intended to be a reference to external hash tags rather
than something we maintain ourselves. If it's a one off episode to mark
#SomeBigEvent then that tag would link to the global tag rather than
linking internally on the HPR site.

It's kind of evolving to something else now where we are linking to
things internally. There is unlikely to ever be a autocomplete or auto
suggest for tags, given the fact we avoid javascript on the site.

You can get to them via http://hackerpublicradio.org/index_full.php

-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Ken Fallon]

Proposed Changes

1) Change upload form to require tags

2) Remove default "explicit" tag from the form

As Ken the host I would like to support the first, and making the second
a default per host.

However 

As Ken the HPR Volunteer I would like to weigh in with some counter
arguments.

Firstly making more mandatory fields risks increasing the barrier to
entry when posting a show. We have always assumed the task of filling
out additional information so that people only need to record a show.
This is our prime directive.

Re 1) Tags

We already have hosts, new and old alike, adding the same string to the
summary and show notes field. I suspect that they will just add the same
string there as well. Furthermore some shows are so short that the
addition of a tag seems to be superfluous.

Re 2) Explicit

The "explicit" field is selected as the default because of the risk of
the HPR Project getting de-listed if it is not flagged correctly.
We have struggled with the "be considered inoffensive in every region of
the world" requirement, as it's very non binary and yet we require a
binary decision. If one person finds a discussion on X offensive do we
need to set the show to Explicit ? Never happened but the risk is there.

http://hackerpublicradio.org/stuff_you_need_to_know.php#explicit

Keep in mind as well that I have observed over the years that no matter
how messed up the other fields were, the "Clean" flag always seemed to
be changed.

We only very rarely need to fix this flag, and when we have had to it's
been about 50:50 as to which way we are changing it. That said setting
the flag from "Clean" to "Explicit" is a lot more urgent and requires
immediate action.

Occasionally we will contact a host known to submit "Clean" shows and
see if they intended to do so, but equally the opposite is true.

I would like to propose that this default value be taken from the hosts
profile. So while Daves would default to Explicit, lostnbronx would
default to "Clean". The host can always override it for a particular show.

How to change your profile, you ask ?

Easy just change it when you send in another show :)

-- 
Regards,

Ken Fallon
http://kenfallon.com
http://hackerpublicradio.org/correspondents.php?hostid=30



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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[lostnbronx]

I think it's a great idea! And I wholeheartedly endorse the idea of
making the Explicit/Clean flags mandatory as well, rather than
defaulting to Explicit. Sometimes I've missed setting this button when
uploading in a hurry, and my ep went out marked as Explicit, when it
wasn't.

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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Kevin O'Brien]

Go for it. How hard can it be to add a tag or two?


-- 
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afraid of their people.” - Alan Moore, *V for Vendetta*
*Public Key = F6283E7A *



On Sun, Mar 3, 2019 at 5:07 PM Dave Morriss  wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> As you'll be aware, there's a field on the form asking for tags for your
> show. The intention is this metadata will be used to help in searching
> for show topics once we have redesigned the underlying database. It can
> currently be used to find stuff on archive.org because I copy our tags
> there too when I upload shows.
>
> If you don't add tags this means that an "HPR Volunteer" has to add
> them. Mostly that's me; I need to check the show notes, and listen to
> the show to make (what I hope are) suitable tag choices, and the way I
> have arranged things I need to do this before uploading the show to
> archive.org because I need the tags to pass to them.
>
> At the time of writing there are five new shows in the queue without
> tags for which I'll have to be the "tag giver" before archive.org gets
> them ;-)
>
> The proposed change is to make the tag field on the upload form
> mandatory - in order that show contributors can be reminded to provide
> tags at upload time.
>
> I'd like to get some feedback from the HPR Community about whether this
> change should go ahead. Please reply to the list. Silence will be
> interpreted as "sure, fine, go ahead"!
>
> Dave
>
>
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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Dave Morriss]

On 03/03/19 22:30, Nigel Verity wrote:
> Hi Dave
> 
> I think it's an excellent idea. How difficult can it be for show hosts
> to come up with a few suitable tags? Apart from anything else, the whole
> ethos of HPR is that there is no censorship beyond that which the hosts
> impose upon themselves. Consequently the preparatory workflow should
> never require "HPR Volunteer" or anybody else to listen to a show before
> it is released.

Absolutely. An excellent point.

> Can I suggest also that the form has no default for "Clean" or
> "Explicit", but the user if forced to select one or the other. That way
> the hosts will have to actively consider which flag is appropriate. I
> rarely find that any HPR episode tagged as "Explicit" actually contains
> anything that even your grandma could find the slightest bit offensive.
> If episodes are routinely over-classified, the classification loses its
> usefulness.

We'll have a look at that.

Personally, I mark all my shows as "explicit" because I'm going with the
meaning from the OED: "Stated clearly and in detail, leaving no room for
confusion or doubt". Obviously they are not "clean" because I say "Um" a
lot and tend to breathe into the microphone. I certainly strive to be
explicit in all I say, but that's just me. ;-)

Dave


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Re: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Nigel Verity]

Hi Dave

I think it's an excellent idea. How difficult can it be for show hosts to come 
up with a few suitable tags? Apart from anything else, the whole ethos of HPR 
is that there is no censorship beyond that which the hosts impose upon 
themselves. Consequently the preparatory workflow should never require "HPR 
Volunteer" or anybody else to listen to a show before it is released.

Can I suggest also that the form has no default for "Clean" or "Explicit", but 
the user if forced to select one or the other. That way the hosts will have to 
actively consider which flag is appropriate. I rarely find that any HPR episode 
tagged as "Explicit" actually contains anything that even your grandma could 
find the slightest bit offensive. If episodes are routinely over-classified, 
the classification loses its usefulness.

Cheers

Nige (aka Beeza)


From: Hpr  on behalf of Dave Morriss 

Sent: 03 March 2019 22:07
To: hpr@hackerpublicradio.org
Subject: [Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

Hi Everyone,

As you'll be aware, there's a field on the form asking for tags for your
show. The intention is this metadata will be used to help in searching
for show topics once we have redesigned the underlying database. It can
currently be used to find stuff on archive.org because I copy our tags
there too when I upload shows.

If you don't add tags this means that an "HPR Volunteer" has to add
them. Mostly that's me; I need to check the show notes, and listen to
the show to make (what I hope are) suitable tag choices, and the way I
have arranged things I need to do this before uploading the show to
archive.org because I need the tags to pass to them.

At the time of writing there are five new shows in the queue without
tags for which I'll have to be the "tag giver" before archive.org gets
them ;-)

The proposed change is to make the tag field on the upload form
mandatory - in order that show contributors can be reminded to provide
tags at upload time.

I'd like to get some feedback from the HPR Community about whether this
change should go ahead. Please reply to the list. Silence will be
interpreted as "sure, fine, go ahead"!

Dave


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[Hpr] A proposed change to the show upload form

[Dave Morriss]

Hi Everyone,

As you'll be aware, there's a field on the form asking for tags for your
show. The intention is this metadata will be used to help in searching
for show topics once we have redesigned the underlying database. It can
currently be used to find stuff on archive.org because I copy our tags
there too when I upload shows.

If you don't add tags this means that an "HPR Volunteer" has to add
them. Mostly that's me; I need to check the show notes, and listen to
the show to make (what I hope are) suitable tag choices, and the way I
have arranged things I need to do this before uploading the show to
archive.org because I need the tags to pass to them.

At the time of writing there are five new shows in the queue without
tags for which I'll have to be the "tag giver" before archive.org gets
them ;-)

The proposed change is to make the tag field on the upload form
mandatory - in order that show contributors can be reminded to provide
tags at upload time.

I'd like to get some feedback from the HPR Community about whether this
change should go ahead. Please reply to the list. Silence will be
interpreted as "sure, fine, go ahead"!

Dave


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