Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-24 Thread Bill Fairchild 
Read it again.  He did say both "shortcut" and "shorthand"

Bill Fairchild
Programmer
Rocket Software
408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA
t: +1.617.614.4503 *  e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: 
www.rocketsoftware.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
zMan
Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:31 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) <
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net> wrote:

> In , on 05/23/2012
>at 08:54 AM, Clark Morris  said:
>
> >On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut for 
> >continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the shorthand 
> >way for saying it
>
> Shorthand? How is 24/7/365 shorter than 24/7?


It's not. But it's shorter (or at least easier to remember/type/understand for 
most people) than 86400/365 or 31536000.

And he didn't say "shorthand", he said "shortcut".

Are we done now?
--
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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-24 Thread Vernooij, CP - SPLXM 
"zMan"  wrote in message
news:...
> On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) <
> shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net> wrote:
> 
> > In , on 05/23/2012
> >at 08:54 AM, Clark Morris  said:
> >
> > >On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut
> > >for continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the
> > >shorthand way for saying it
> >
> > Shorthand? How is 24/7/365 shorter than 24/7?
> 
> 
> It's not. But it's shorter (or at least easier to
remember/type/understand
> for most people) than 86400/365 or 31536000.
> 
> And he didn't say "shorthand", he said "shortcut".
> 
> Are we done now?
> -- 
> zMan -- "I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it"

I would like to suggest the 24/7/52 variation. It is shorter than
24/7/365 and is easier realizable in 1 year.

Kees.

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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-24 Thread zMan 
On Thu, May 24, 2012 at 6:18 AM, Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) <
shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net> wrote:

> In , on 05/23/2012
>at 08:54 AM, Clark Morris  said:
>
> >On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut
> >for continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the
> >shorthand way for saying it
>
> Shorthand? How is 24/7/365 shorter than 24/7?


It's not. But it's shorter (or at least easier to remember/type/understand
for most people) than 86400/365 or 31536000.

And he didn't say "shorthand", he said "shortcut".

Are we done now?
-- 
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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-24 Thread Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) 
In , on 05/23/2012
   at 08:54 AM, Clark Morris  said:

>On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut 
>for continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the 
>shorthand way for saying it

Shorthand? How is 24/7/365 shorter than 24/7?
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread R.S. 
IMHO everyone here perfectly understand common (and intended) meaning of 
24/7/365. While is formally inaccurate, it's still clear.


The rest is as worth to discuss as USS=Unix System Services.

Maybe there is "official IBM meaning* of 24/7/365 or "the only proper 
description of continuous availability" ? 


My €0.02
--
Radoslaw Skorupka
Lodz, Poland





W dniu 2012-05-23 16:20, Bill Fairchild pisze:

And the general public, many Dilbertian managers, and even some of us 
professional nitpickers, think that a job running 1 hour instead of 10 is 900% 
faster, and that 1 is 10 times smaller than 10.  2+2 no longer = 5; now it 
equals chartreuse.

Fortunately architects and engineers know how to use mathematically accurate 
and precise terminology when describing the bridges they design and build, or 
we would have a lot more cars falling off of collapsing bridges.

Bill Fairchild
Programmer
Rocket Software
408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA
t: +1.617.614.4503 *  e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: 
www.rocketsoftware.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Clark Morris
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 6:54 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

On 22 May 2012 20:04:42 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:


In, on 05/21/2012
   at 03:51 PM, Clark Morris  said:


I'm the last to see my own errors.  Hopefully it was obvious I meant
24/7/365


That's no better. Either 24/7/52 or 24/365 would be approximately
correct.



On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut for 
continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the shorthand way for 
saying it and is it the way that the general public as opposed to us 
professional nitpickers best understands it?

Clark Morris

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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Paul Gilmartin 
On Wed, 23 May 2012 14:20:03 +, Bill Fairchild wrote:

>And the general public, many Dilbertian managers, and even some of us 
>professional nitpickers, think that a job running 1 hour instead of 10 is 900% 
>faster, 
>
I believe that's correct usage, even as an airplane that flies from
New York to Washington in one hour is 900% faster than a car
that makes the trip in 10 hours.

>and that 1 is 10 times smaller than 10. 
>
And that's confusing or nonsensical.  But see: e.g.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markedness#Marked_and_unmarked_word_pairs
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u15776721t318p8u/

Does "24/7" sometimes presume an exception for national holidays?
Why is it "24/7" rather than "24x7"?  And why do markets display
prices such as "3/$1.00" rather than "$1.00/3"?

Is chartreuse about 50% greener than olive?

Now, can we get back to our charter of discussing the appropriate use of TLAs?

-- gil

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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Mike Schwab 
On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Bill Fairchild
 wrote:
> And the general public, many Dilbertian managers, and even some of us 
> professional nitpickers, think that a job running 1 hour instead of 10 is 
> 900% faster, and that 1 is 10 times smaller than 10.  2+2 no longer = 5; now 
> it equals chartreuse.
>
> Fortunately architects and engineers know how to use mathematically accurate 
> and precise terminology when describing the bridges they design and build, or 
> we would have a lot more cars falling off of collapsing bridges.
>
> Bill Fairchild

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bridge_failures
-- 
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Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Anne & Lynn Wheeler 
bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com (Bill Fairchild) writes:
> And the general public, many Dilbertian managers, and even some of us
> professional nitpickers, think that a job running 1 hour instead of 10
> is 900% faster, and that 1 is 10 times smaller than 10.  2+2 no longer
> = 5; now it equals chartreuse.
>
> Fortunately architects and engineers know how to use mathematically
> accurate and precise terminology when describing the bridges they
> design and build, or we would have a lot more cars falling off of
> collapsing bridges.

re:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#29 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: 
IBMLink outages in 2012

Volcker in discussion with civil engineering professor about
significantly decline in infrastructure projects (as institutions
skimmed funds for other purposes & disappearing civil engineering jobs)
resulting in universities cutting back civil engineering programs;
"Confidence Men", pg290:

Well, I said, 'The trouble with the United States recently is we spent
several decades not producing many civil engineers and producing a
huge number of financial engineers. And the result is s**tty bridges
and a s**tty financial system!

... snip ... 

old presentation by Jim Gray on availability ... scanned from paper copy
that had been made on copying machine in bldg. 28, SJR
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/grayft84.pdf

the point (from early 80s) was that majority of outages (scheduled and
non-scheduled) had shifted from hardware to software (and human errors).

(early 70s) before virtual memory announcement for 370, a copy of
internal document describing the technology leaked to the press. in the
wake of the following investigation, all internal copying machines were
retrofitted with unique identifier (under the glass) that would appear
on all copies made on that machine.

for other drift ... it has been five years since Jim disappeared and
cal. court recently declared him dead ... reference in (linkedin) z/VM
group:
http://lnkd.in/C2yn7p
also archived here:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012g.html#21 Closure in Disappearance of Computer 
Scientist 


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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Bill Fairchild 
And the general public, many Dilbertian managers, and even some of us 
professional nitpickers, think that a job running 1 hour instead of 10 is 900% 
faster, and that 1 is 10 times smaller than 10.  2+2 no longer = 5; now it 
equals chartreuse.

Fortunately architects and engineers know how to use mathematically accurate 
and precise terminology when describing the bridges they design and build, or 
we would have a lot more cars falling off of collapsing bridges.

Bill Fairchild
Programmer
Rocket Software
408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA
t: +1.617.614.4503 *  e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: 
www.rocketsoftware.com


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of 
Clark Morris
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 6:54 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu
Subject: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

On 22 May 2012 20:04:42 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

>In , on 05/21/2012
>   at 03:51 PM, Clark Morris  said:
>
>>I'm the last to see my own errors.  Hopefully it was obvious I meant 
>>24/7/365
>
>That's no better. Either 24/7/52 or 24/365 would be approximately 
>correct.
> 

On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut for 
continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the shorthand way for 
saying it and is it the way that the general public as opposed to us 
professional nitpickers best understands it?

Clark Morris

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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Anne & Lynn Wheeler 
cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.ca (Clark Morris) writes:
> On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut for
> continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the shorthand
> way for saying it and is it the way that the general public as opposed
> to us professional nitpickers best understands it?

when we were doing ha/cmp in the early 90s, one of the customers we
called on supported the 1-800 lookup (i.e. 1-800 got routed to dbms
transaction that looked up the "real" number for putting the call
through) & had "five-nines" availability. the incumbent had redundant
hardware ... but required system to be taken down for software
maintenance ... short scheduled downtime, once a year blew the outage
budget for a nearly a century. ha/cmp didn't have redundant hardware
components but had replicated systems and fall-over ... so failures &
downtime was masked ... even rolling outages for software system
maintenance w/o service impact.

eventually the incumbent vendor came back and said that they could do
replicated systems also ... for masking individual system downtime ...
but that negated the requirement for redudant sofware.

i was then asked to write a section for the corporae continuous
available strategy document ... but the section got pulled after both
Rochester and POK complained that they couldn't meet the objectives.

past posts mentioning coining the terms "disaster survivability" and
"geographic survivability" ... to differentiate from disaster/recovery
when out marketing ha/cmp:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#available

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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Mike Liberatore 
YES enough said!!!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-Original Message-
From: Bill Ashton 
Sender: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 08:30:11 
To: 
Reply-to: IBM Mainframe Discussion List 
Subject: Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

In actuality, isn't 24x7 comprehensive enough?

The 24 infers that the availability is round the clock, as opposed to most
operating schedules that embrace a single day shift of 8 hours (banker's
hours), or a day of 14 or 16 hours.
The 7 infers that availability is every day of the week, as opposed to only
5 days or 6 days as posited by many businesses.

Beyond these, there is no de rigueur schedule of weeks within a year, or
even days within a year that is consistently embraced across all cutures
and peoples. Consequently, there is no need to stress availability for 52
or 52.(fraction) weeks and no need to stress 365 day availability. Neither
of these adds clarity beyond what 24x7 or 24/7 or whatever representation
you give to "every hour, every day."

Billy

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Clark Morris wrote:

> On 22 May 2012 20:04:42 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
>
> >In , on 05/21/2012
> >   at 03:51 PM, Clark Morris  said:
> >
> >>I'm the last to see my own errors.  Hopefully it was obvious I
> >>meant 24/7/365
> >
> >That's no better. Either 24/7/52 or 24/365 would be approximately
> >correct.
> >
>
> On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut for
> continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the shorthand
> way for saying it and is it the way that the general public as opposed
> to us professional nitpickers best understands it?
>
> Clark Morris
>
> --
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Re: 24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Bill Ashton 
In actuality, isn't 24x7 comprehensive enough?

The 24 infers that the availability is round the clock, as opposed to most
operating schedules that embrace a single day shift of 8 hours (banker's
hours), or a day of 14 or 16 hours.
The 7 infers that availability is every day of the week, as opposed to only
5 days or 6 days as posited by many businesses.

Beyond these, there is no de rigueur schedule of weeks within a year, or
even days within a year that is consistently embraced across all cutures
and peoples. Consequently, there is no need to stress availability for 52
or 52.(fraction) weeks and no need to stress 365 day availability. Neither
of these adds clarity beyond what 24x7 or 24/7 or whatever representation
you give to "every hour, every day."

Billy

On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 7:54 AM, Clark Morris wrote:

> On 22 May 2012 20:04:42 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:
>
> >In , on 05/21/2012
> >   at 03:51 PM, Clark Morris  said:
> >
> >>I'm the last to see my own errors.  Hopefully it was obvious I
> >>meant 24/7/365
> >
> >That's no better. Either 24/7/52 or 24/365 would be approximately
> >correct.
> >
>
> On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut for
> continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the shorthand
> way for saying it and is it the way that the general public as opposed
> to us professional nitpickers best understands it?
>
> Clark Morris
>
> --
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
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*Billy Ashton*

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24/7/365 appropriateness was Re: IBMLink outages in 2012

2012-05-23 Thread Clark Morris 
On 22 May 2012 20:04:42 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote:

>In , on 05/21/2012
>   at 03:51 PM, Clark Morris  said:
>
>>I'm the last to see my own errors.  Hopefully it was obvious I 
>>meant 24/7/365 
>
>That's no better. Either 24/7/52 or 24/365 would be approximately
>correct.
> 

On a logical basis I agree with you but has the 24/7/365 shortcut for
continuous availability become so pervasive that it is the shorthand
way for saying it and is it the way that the general public as opposed
to us professional nitpickers best understands it?

Clark Morris

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