Re: Licence to kill -9
That is a very fair test, basic, and not high difficulty. Sometimes I get a bit miffed when I find out an interview for a technical position was held without me or any other technical person there. One test question back some years ago with I was working in Heidelberg was to ask the interviewee what would they do if they encountered some network problems. I didn't get that question because I was interviewing for a mainframe position, and with one manager level MVSkinda-sorta and another Unix guy that didn't say much. And knew diddly about mainframes. But the answer they were looking for about the network was the ping utility. To be honest, I would have probably gotten that one wrong because I would have gone deeper too look for a problem. Ping is such a staple utility used so much that I would have dismissed it as being just too obvious. Of course I would have started with something like ping, but I wouldn't have counted it as any sort of answer. Personally I would expect more from a professional. Ok, if someone says they are an assembler programmer, then sure, show us what you can do. Copying a file to a file seems trivial. But what if they aren't an assembler programmer? I'd say come back tomorrow with a working program, and explain briefly how it works in case it was simply copied from another source and (hopefully changed a bit). Copying code is fair game. Now you have me challenged to see if that would be a fair request. My assembler skills are next to nothing. Best I've done is a Rexx assembler function and that was mostly just going through a bunch load of control blocks. And I might as be a RISC programmer - I might know 40 instructions. Starting now, if I don't give up for some good reason, I am going to write an assembler program to copy a file. Something I've never done before, and I have no clue how to do it. Sounds like a nice challenge. Lindy Mayfield -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 unsnip When they talk about their skills in Assembler, I ask them to write a simple program to copy one file to another. (I had a white boarxd in my office.) We then would critique the result. Sometimes the program was very good: short and effective. Other times, the result was a disaster. One couldn't do it at all. And HE was supposed to be the Assembler expert! Bottom line: you MIGHT dazzle us with brilliance; you certainly CANNOT baffle us with BS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
On 11/30/2011 1:26 AM, Lindy Mayfield wrote: That is a very fair test, basic, and not high difficulty. Sometimes I get a bit miffed when I find out an interview for a technical position was held without me or any other technical person there. One test question back some years ago with I was working in Heidelberg was to ask the interviewee what would they do if they encountered some network problems. I didn't get that question because I was interviewing for a mainframe position, and with one manager level MVSkinda-sorta and another Unix guy that didn't say much. And knew diddly about mainframes. But the answer they were looking for about the network was the ping utility. To be honest, I would have probably gotten that one wrong because I would have gone deeper too look for a problem. Ping is such a staple utility used so much that I would have dismissed it as being just too obvious. Of course I would have started with something like ping, but I wouldn't have counted it as any sort of answer. Personally I would expect more from a professional. Ok, if someone says they are an assembler programmer, then sure, show us what you can do. Copying a file to a file seems trivial. But what if they aren't an assembler programmer? I'd say come back tomorrow with a working program, and explain briefly how it works in case it was simply copied from another source and (hopefully changed a bit). Copying code is fair game. Now you have me challenged to see if that would be a fair request. My assembler skills are next to nothing. Best I've done is a Rexx assembler function and that was mostly just going through a bunch load of control blocks. And I might as be a RISC programmer - I might know 40 instructions. Starting now, if I don't give up for some good reason, I am going to write an assembler program to copy a file. Something I've never done before, and I have no clue how to do it. Sounds like a nice challenge. If you need any hints / samples, you could visit http://www.trainersfriend.com/General_content/Book_site.htm and scroll down the three Assembler papers. In your case you might start with the third of the three and then read the second and then the first. But ... try it yourself first. Lindy Mayfield -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 unsnip When they talk about their skills in Assembler, I ask them to write a simple program to copy one file to another. (I had a white boarxd in my office.) We then would critique the result. Sometimes the program was very good: short and effective. Other times, the result was a disaster. One couldn't do it at all. And HE was supposed to be the Assembler expert! Bottom line: you MIGHT dazzle us with brilliance; you certainly CANNOT baffle us with BS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Kind regards, -Steve Comstock The Trainer's Friend, Inc. 303-355-2752 http://www.trainersfriend.com * To get a good Return on your Investment, first make an investment! + Training your people is an excellent investment * Try our tool for calculating your Return On Investment for training dollars at http://www.trainersfriend.com/ROI/roi.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
In 45fcfbbb8bc8eb4a9dfedc6fa2cc7fdf0b2...@sdkmbx03.emea.sas.com, on 11/30/2011 at 08:26 AM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.com said: One test question back some years ago with I was working in Heidelberg was to ask the interviewee what would they do if they encountered some network problems. That's a perfect example of a bad question. The answer depends very much on context. But the answer they were looking for about the network was the ping utility. What if it's not an IP network? Being the kind, gentle soul that I am, I would probably ask open book questions. ;-) -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
Simple enough: GET SYSIN,SYSSPACE PUT SYSOUT,SYSSPAE The hard part is before the get and after the put. Good luck, ja On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.comwrote: That is a very fair test, basic, and not high difficulty. Sometimes I get a bit miffed when I find out an interview for a technical position was held without me or any other technical person there. One test question back some years ago with I was working in Heidelberg was to ask the interviewee what would they do if they encountered some network problems. I didn't get that question because I was interviewing for a mainframe position, and with one manager level MVSkinda-sorta and another Unix guy that didn't say much. And knew diddly about mainframes. But the answer they were looking for about the network was the ping utility. To be honest, I would have probably gotten that one wrong because I would have gone deeper too look for a problem. Ping is such a staple utility used so much that I would have dismissed it as being just too obvious. Of course I would have started with something like ping, but I wouldn't have counted it as any sort of answer. Personally I would expect more from a professional. Ok, if someone says they are an assembler programmer, then sure, show us what you can do. Copying a file to a file seems trivial. But what if they aren't an assembler programmer? I'd say come back tomorrow with a working program, and explain briefly how it works in case it was simply copied from another source and (hopefully changed a bit). Copying code is fair game. Now you have me challenged to see if that would be a fair request. My assembler skills are next to nothing. Best I've done is a Rexx assembler function and that was mostly just going through a bunch load of control blocks. And I might as be a RISC programmer - I might know 40 instructions. Starting now, if I don't give up for some good reason, I am going to write an assembler program to copy a file. Something I've never done before, and I have no clue how to do it. Sounds like a nice challenge. Lindy Mayfield -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 unsnip When they talk about their skills in Assembler, I ask them to write a simple program to copy one file to another. (I had a white boarxd in my office.) We then would critique the result. Sometimes the program was very good: short and effective. Other times, the result was a disaster. One couldn't do it at all. And HE was supposed to be the Assembler expert! Bottom line: you MIGHT dazzle us with brilliance; you certainly CANNOT baffle us with BS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Joe Aulph, Florida Dept. of Children Families Senior Systems Programmer: 850-487-8945 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
Using GET with MACRF=GL is better than GM as you do less data movement. No need for the SYSSPACE data element in the program. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Joe Aulph Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:32 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 Simple enough: GET SYSIN,SYSSPACE PUT SYSOUT,SYSSPAE The hard part is before the get and after the put. Good luck, ja On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.comwrote: That is a very fair test, basic, and not high difficulty. Sometimes I get a bit miffed when I find out an interview for a technical position was held without me or any other technical person there. One test question back some years ago with I was working in Heidelberg was to ask the interviewee what would they do if they encountered some network problems. I didn't get that question because I was interviewing for a mainframe position, and with one manager level MVSkinda-sorta and another Unix guy that didn't say much. And knew diddly about mainframes. But the answer they were looking for about the network was the ping utility. To be honest, I would have probably gotten that one wrong because I would have gone deeper too look for a problem. Ping is such a staple utility used so much that I would have dismissed it as being just too obvious. Of course I would have started with something like ping, but I wouldn't have counted it as any sort of answer. Personally I would expect more from a professional. Ok, if someone says they are an assembler programmer, then sure, show us what you can do. Copying a file to a file seems trivial. But what if they aren't an assembler programmer? I'd say come back tomorrow with a working program, and explain briefly how it works in case it was simply copied from another source and (hopefully changed a bit). Copying code is fair game. Now you have me challenged to see if that would be a fair request. My assembler skills are next to nothing. Best I've done is a Rexx assembler function and that was mostly just going through a bunch load of control blocks. And I might as be a RISC programmer - I might know 40 instructions. Starting now, if I don't give up for some good reason, I am going to write an assembler program to copy a file. Something I've never done before, and I have no clue how to do it. Sounds like a nice challenge. Lindy Mayfield -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 unsnip-- -- When they talk about their skills in Assembler, I ask them to write a simple program to copy one file to another. (I had a white boarxd in my office.) We then would critique the result. Sometimes the program was very good: short and effective. Other times, the result was a disaster. One couldn't do it at all. And HE was supposed to be the Assembler expert! Bottom line: you MIGHT dazzle us with brilliance; you certainly CANNOT baffle us with BS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- Joe Aulph, Florida Dept. of Children Families Senior Systems Programmer: 850-487-8945 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu
Re: Licence to kill -9
How about : get sysin putx sysout,sysin Rick Joe Aulph wrote: Simple enough: GET SYSIN,SYSSPACE PUT SYSOUT,SYSSPAE The hard part is before the get and after the put. Good luck, ja On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 3:26 AM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.comwrote: That is a very fair test, basic, and not high difficulty. Sometimes I get a bit miffed when I find out an interview for a technical position was held without me or any other technical person there. One test question back some years ago with I was working in Heidelberg was to ask the interviewee what would they do if they encountered some network problems. I didn't get that question because I was interviewing for a mainframe position, and with one manager level MVSkinda-sorta and another Unix guy that didn't say much. And knew diddly about mainframes. But the answer they were looking for about the network was the ping utility. To be honest, I would have probably gotten that one wrong because I would have gone deeper too look for a problem. Ping is such a staple utility used so much that I would have dismissed it as being just too obvious. Of course I would have started with something like ping, but I wouldn't have counted it as any sort of answer. Personally I would expect more from a professional. Ok, if someone says they are an assembler programmer, then sure, show us what you can do. Copying a file to a file seems trivial. But what if they aren't an assembler programmer? I'd say come back tomorrow with a working program, and explain briefly how it works in case it was simply copied from another source and (hopefully changed a bit). Copying code is fair game. Now you have me challenged to see if that would be a fair request. My assembler skills are next to nothing. Best I've done is a Rexx assembler function and that was mostly just going through a bunch load of control blocks. And I might as be a RISC programmer - I might know 40 instructions. Starting now, if I don't give up for some good reason, I am going to write an assembler program to copy a file. Something I've never done before, and I have no clue how to do it. Sounds like a nice challenge. Lindy Mayfield -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 unsnip When they talk about their skills in Assembler, I ask them to write a simple program to copy one file to another. (I had a white boarxd in my office.) We then would critique the result. Sometimes the program was very good: short and effective. Other times, the result was a disaster. One couldn't do it at all. And HE was supposed to be the Assembler expert! Bottom line: you MIGHT dazzle us with brilliance; you certainly CANNOT baffle us with BS. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
Thanks! Really. But I want to do it on my own. Your sources are wonderful. But I want to learn from knowing Nothing. I've written a small few assembler programs, but I've even opened a file. But thanks for the vote of confidence. I want to try it myself first. I have no doubt I can do it. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Comstock Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 3:50 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 . If you need any hints / samples, you could visit http://www.trainersfriend.com/General_content/Book_site.htm and scroll down the three Assembler papers. In your case you might start with the third of the three and then read the second and then the first. But ... try it yourself first. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
In ofb5042316.3ea33d63-on87257956.007d303a-86257956.007f1...@us.ibm.com, on 11/28/2011 at 05:08 PM, Steve Thompson sthomp...@us.ibm.com said: There is a group that does something called the Certified Data Processor (CDP). I hold a CDP[1]. I don't bother to list it on my résumé. Were I hiring, I wouldn't consider a CDP relevant. OK, now let's look at TSO, ISPF, HLASM, IPCS, etc. How would you determine if someone was good with TSO native commands Would you want to, or would it be more important to determine if they were familiar with TSO services, e.g., PARSE, PUTGET? Would familiarity with the commands be as important as mastery of CLIST and REXX? [1] from DPMA, not from RCA ;-) -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
In 45fcfbbb8bc8eb4a9dfedc6fa2cc7fdf0b0...@sdkmbx03.emea.sas.com, on 11/28/2011 at 09:03 PM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.com said: What are your thoughts about having some sort of certification for working with computers? The Devil is in the details. If you're talking about a bank of multiple choice questions keyed to a specific language, platform or vendor, kill it before it multiplies. If you're talking about something else, spell out what you would test for and how you would test for it. Ok, sometimes a university degree helps, but still it isn't the same as being qualified. Neither is, e.g., an MCSE certificate. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
I've worked as a DB2 DBA for a couple of years at DC Government. During Y2K. And I have no doubt that I could do DBA work again if necessary. I'd have a bit of learning to do to catch up on the new stuff. On the other hand, some years later I tried a practice DBA certification on a computer at a DB2/IMS IBM Conference. I failed it miserably. Though if I had the documentation, I would ace it. I don't concern myself too much with what I know, since if I don't use it I tend to forget it. If I had a nickel for every line of CSP and Cobol I coded... :-) But what is most important to me is to know where and how to get the information. There is just too much information to remember it all. For me, I mean. Lindy -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Bobbie Justice Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:57 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 Interviews will usually weed out the b.s. artists, doesn't necessarily detect potential personality conflicts. having a certification doesn't guarantee that you will be a good fit for the company, or vice versa. bring someone in as a contractor for x amount of time. if you like the work they do, and they like working there, keep them as a contractor, or hire them full time. If you don't like their work, or maybe they don't like the place, then you simply say your goodbyes, sometimes right away, sometimes later. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
My experiences all too often is to meet a new person only to find out that they just BS'd their way into the job. And some are good enough to BS their way while doing the job. After a while, and I'm sure most agree, I realize that a person is BS after about 30 seconds talking. It is nice we are partially self-governing, and I don't complain about that. Lindy is my given name, and I was named after Charles Lucky Lindy Lindberg. Regards, Lindy -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Rick Fochtman Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2011 12:09 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 In summary, I think we're equally served by our own efforts at self-policing; no separately constituted policing body could really do much more. (Curious: Lindy as a Christian name, or a contraction of another name?) Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Lindy Mayfield Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 4:37 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Licence to kill -9 I have a lot of respect for you. And your opinions. I agree that the way we do things at the moment, that people hiring check us out as well as they can before hiring us. I think we all can agree on this. Fuxk the alphabet of soupe of trivial acronyms and such. we already know what they mean. Let's get real. I work in an office, some work in a cubicle farm. We do our jobs, whatever it is. What is our career path? I'd like to be a spy, specially a 007 one. Lindy I wanted to be a surfing beach bum when I was a child. But I have failed miserably. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
As a systems programmer, I don't need to know everything, I just need to know where to get answers. During the past few years we see more and more posts from those who seemingly are new to systems programming. Most of what follows is for the benefit of those new sysprogs; those of us who have been at this for a while already have the scars and nothing below will be new. Many of the new sysprogs want quick answers, seem to do little or no research on their own, and miss opportunities to learn something new that will make them a better systems programmer. Most of us are under time pressure to get answers as fast as we can, then move on to put out the next fire. The little bit of extra effort to learn something from each fire, combined with some effort to try to prevent that fire from happening again, is well worth it. Most problems reveal themselves with messages. Those messages may not tell us everything we need to know to solve the problem, but they do provide some valuable clues. Once you have the message, you need to look it up for all the gory details rather than taking it at face value and making possibly invalid conclusions. To look up the message, you need to know where to look. Every systems programmer should have access to manuals. You might have them on CD or DVD, have them on disk accessible from the mainframe via something like BookManager/Read, or on a PC in PDF format. Perhaps you have QuickRef that can be used for a first glance. If you don't have them in any of those places, then have a link to a web site where you can get them. For IBM manuals, zFavorites is a good place to start; for manuals for products from other vendors, have good reliable links to their web sites. Be familiar with how the manuals are organized. For IBM, know what the bookshelves are, know what's on those bookshelves; when the fire is raging and you need quick answers, you don't have time to unravel the organization of the manuals. Know how to search those manuals, whether within a single book or across books on a shelf. Find the message and read it carefully. The description may provide clues to other things to be researched. Look those up as well. Each thing you look up gives you more information you can use to solve the problem, and more things that you learn and can use the next time. The manuals should be the first place to go. Google can be useful, but should be used only after using the manuals. The message or other symptoms, when used as a search argument, may not reveal anything. This is not an indication that you have encountered a new problem that no one else has found, and therefore automatically post to IBM-Main or other support mechanisms for an answer. Other places to look for answers include IBM flashes, IBM Redbooks, SHARE papers, other web sites such as CMG and MXG, and personal web sites of other systems programmers. Should you not be fighting a fire, and have managed to eke out a bit of spare time, spend that time looking at those sites, download and read papers, download and look at examples of what others have done so you can learn. And for you new sysprogs, when a job fails there may be many messages. These are often a domino effect. Don't just pick one that seems useful - pick the very first one and work on that. That might be good enough for you to solve the problem and to solve it quickly. - Don Imbriale On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 7:47 AM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.comwrote: But what is most important to me is to know where and how to get the information. There is just too much information to remember it all. For me, I mean. Lindy -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
In 45fcfbbb8bc8eb4a9dfedc6fa2cc7fdf0b1...@sdkmbx03.emea.sas.com, on 11/29/2011 at 12:47 PM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.com said: There is just too much information to remember it all. The problem isn't the information that you can't remember but know how to look up. The problem is the information that you *can* remember, when it's been changed on you. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
On 11/29/2011 9:16 AM, Don Imbriale wrote: The manuals should be the first place to go. Google can be useful, but should be used only after using the manuals. The message or other symptoms, when used as a search argument, may not reveal anything. This is not an indication that you have encountered a new problem that no one else has found, and therefore automatically post to IBM-Main or other support mechanisms for an answer. While I agree with you in principle, the practice is somewhat wanting. In the past I've found information in the printed manuals that was not available in digital form; the first time I ran into this I was doing maintenance at an ISV. The program allocated a temporary SYSIN data set, wrote one line, closed it, allocated a temporary SYSPRINT, and attached IDCAMS, then opened SYSPRINT, processed the file, then closed and freed the temporary files. I suspected that there was a better way, but couldn't find it - there were some elusive hints to a figure, but that didn't show up. It was only when I tracked down the printed version that I found all necessary information in the illustration - setting up a SYSIN/SYSPRINT exit to avoid the allocation and de-allocation of files. I suspect that the situation wasn't unique to the IDCAMS documentation, but it was the first I found where all the needed information (return values, PARM format, etc.) appeared only in an illustration. The situation with messages isn't straight-forward either. It takes lots of time, and copious errors, to learn which messages to ignore on first reading job output, as many are either irrelevant or non-productive. Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, VT -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Licence to kill -9
Us computer people, we have a lot of power. We can do at least as much or more damage (even if we are royally incompetent) such as a nurse, a doctor, an electrician, a plumber or some such professional. What are your thoughts about having some sort of certification for working with computers? Like a doctor or nurse or pilot or even a flight attendant? I mean, come on, a plumber? We seem to be a lot that isn't very well - what is the word? There is no governing body that checks out our qualifications. It is mainly just between us and the interview. Ok, sometimes a university degree helps, but still it isn't the same as being qualified. For me this isn't a bad thing, but I am just a boy taking advantage of the situation. I was just thinking what are you guys' thoughts about this. Many of you were working with OS/360 the year I was born. 1964. A good year. :) Kindest regards Lindy -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
---snip--- Us computer people, we have a lot of power. We can do at least as much or more damage (even if we are royally incompetent) such as a nurse, a doctor, an electrician, a plumber or some such professional. What are your thoughts about having some sort of certification for working with computers? Like a doctor or nurse or pilot or even a flight attendant? I mean, come on, a plumber? We seem to be a lot that isn't very well - what is the word? There is no governing body that checks out our qualifications. It is mainly just between us and the interview. Ok, sometimes a university degree helps, but still it isn't the same as being qualified. For me this isn't a bad thing, but I am just a boy taking advantage of the situation. I was just thinking what are you guys' thoughts about this. Many of you were working with OS/360 the year I was born. 1964. A good year. :) Kindest regards Lindy unsnip- Lindy, you're right in that we have no governing body as such. But we have a sort of tacit form of governance: each other. It can be very easy for someone to to rattle off the alphabet soup of acronyms, etc. in any field, but knowing when to use them can be a whole different story. I've had prospective employees come to me all primed and rarin' to dazzle me with acronyms, only to find that I know the acronyms too. They were told to expect only a Human Resources type to deal with, who wouldn't know a printer from a card punch it they landed on his toes. When they talk about their skills in Assembler, I ask them to write a simple program to copy one file to another. (I had a white boarxd in my office.) We then would critique the result. Sometimes the program was very good: short and effective. Other times, the result was a disaster. One couldn't do it at all. And HE was supposed to be the Assembler expert! Bottom line: you MIGHT dazzle us with brilliance; you certainly CANNOT baffle us with BS. Breaches in integrity and/or honesty usually become well known fairly quickly, via local grapevines. Or, on very rare occaissions, the news media. Years ago, there was a theft of $1 million from the First National Bank in Chicago. The thief is known, his method is known. Lacking is the evidence to go to trial. But he doesn't work in IT any more, and never will, at least in greater Chicago. That particular individual has managed to alienate most of the people he once called friends in other ways as well. In summary, I think we're equally served by our own efforts at self-policing; no separately constituted policing body could really do much more. (Curious: Lindy as a Christian name, or a contraction of another name?) Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
http://www.webopedia.com/quick_ref/ComputerCertifications.asp http://www.mcmcse.com/othercerts.shtml http://www-03.ibm.com/certify/certs/index.shtml Just the first three good looking links I found. A lot more on the first page of http://www.google.com/search?q=microsoft+certification On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.com wrote: Us computer people, we have a lot of power. We can do at least as much or more damage (even if we are royally incompetent) such as a nurse, a doctor, an electrician, a plumber or some such professional. What are your thoughts about having some sort of certification for working with computers? Like a doctor or nurse or pilot or even a flight attendant? I mean, come on, a plumber? We seem to be a lot that isn't very well - what is the word? There is no governing body that checks out our qualifications. It is mainly just between us and the interview. Ok, sometimes a university degree helps, but still it isn't the same as being qualified. For me this isn't a bad thing, but I am just a boy taking advantage of the situation. I was just thinking what are you guys' thoughts about this. Many of you were working with OS/360 the year I was born. 1964. A good year. :) Kindest regards Lindy -- Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
On 28 November 2011 16:03, Lindy Mayfield lindy.mayfi...@sas.com wrote: Us computer people, we have a lot of power. We can do at least as much or more damage (even if we are royally incompetent) such as a nurse, a doctor, an electrician, a plumber or some such professional. What are your thoughts about having some sort of certification for working with computers? Like a doctor or nurse or pilot or even a flight attendant? I mean, come on, a plumber? We seem to be a lot that isn't very well - what is the word? There is no governing body that checks out our qualifications. It is mainly just between us and the interview. Ok, sometimes a university degree helps, but still it isn't the same as being qualified. For me this isn't a bad thing, but I am just a boy taking advantage of the situation. I was just thinking what are you guys' thoughts about this. Many of you were working with OS/360 the year I was born. 1964. A good year. :) Back in 1990 I wrote a short book review for the RISKS Digest. It may still have some relevance. http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/10.43.html#subj3.1 Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
I have a lot of respect for you. And your opinions. I agree that the way we do things at the moment, that people hiring check us out as well as they can before hiring us. I think we all can agree on this. Fuxk the alphabet of soupe of trivial acronyms and such. we already know what they mean. Let's get real. I work in an office, some work in a cubicle farm. We do our jobs, whatever it is. What is our career path? I'd like to be a spy, specially a 007 one. Lindy -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
Interviews will usually weed out the b.s. artists, doesn't necessarily detect potential personality conflicts. having a certification doesn't guarantee that you will be a good fit for the company, or vice versa. bring someone in as a contractor for x amount of time. if you like the work they do, and they like working there, keep them as a contractor, or hire them full time. If you don't like their work, or maybe they don't like the place, then you simply say your goodbyes, sometimes right away, sometimes later. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
snippage What are your thoughts about having some sort of certification for working with computers? Like a doctor or nurse or pilot or even a flight attendant? I mean, come on, a plumber? snippage There is a group that does something called the Certified Data Processor (CDP). Some years ago, when I was part of NaSPA, there was a discussion about this (somewhere before 1997). It is interesting that the State of NJ decided to make it happen, having the DP/IT group report to the Board of Cosmetology (I kid you not, they were going to have data processing professionals subject to a board for certifying Hair Dressers!!). There was a big hue and cry and this got stopped. Texas had some talks about it and that faded out to nothing. Many of us asked some questions about how would we certify people? How could we keep the tests current? Being a Certified VTAM USS person is not all that useful (if you don't know the real difference, just drop it and don't start), while being a certified VTAM SNA Network person with the SNI endorsement might have been a good thing. Then there is the JES3 Installation and Maint Cert. etc. etc. As you can see, the VTAM certs would not be good today because of the number of places that are really TCP oriented. This brought up the arguments about how long should a cert be good for? Being an SMP/E certified SYSPROG would probably be one of those things where the CERT would have meaning for 10 years or more. Today, having a SYSPLEX CERT would probably be a very good thing. AMDAHL DOMAIN certifications would be nearly worthless today. But an IBM LPAR certification might be good. Now, you can start to see what CERTs someone would need to have to be a MASTER SYSPROG. OK, now let's look at TSO, ISPF, HLASM, IPCS, etc. How would you determine if someone was good with TSO native commands -- would it require being able to edit some short file with the TSO native editor? HLASM: have to write a macro given certain specs, while writing a program that calculates how much money you would have, had you been paid $12.00 (US) in 1790 for some island off the east coast of the US, using 5% interest, binary arithmetic, conversion to packed decimal with floating a dollar sign (EDMK stuff) -- up to July 15th, 1996? Would that demonstrate that you could program in assembly language or that you should be doing banking programming? Who do we get to handle these things? SHARE? NaSPA? IBM? I'm all for it. But in all the discussions I've seen to date, they collapse under some argument or another. Regards, Steve Thompson -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
Interviews will usually weed out the b.s. artists, doesn't necessarily detect potential personality conflicts. I've seen many bs artists 'beat' the interview process. Accreditation has always been problematic in my experience. - Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca Twitter: @TedMacNEIL -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
For my entire career I have been told I am certifiable - does this qualify ??? Chris hoelscher Database Administrator |Technical Services Humana 123 East Main Street |Louisville, KY 40202 T 502.476.2538 F choelsc...@humana.com Humana.com Keeping CAS and Metavance safe for all HUMANAty There is a group that does something called the Certified Data Processor (CDP). The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Licence to kill -9
On 11/28/2011 05:08 PM, Steve Thompson wrote: snippage What are your thoughts about having some sort of certification for working with computers? Like a doctor or nurse or pilot or even a flight attendant? I mean, come on, a plumber? snippage There is a group that does something called the Certified Data Processor (CDP). Some years ago, when I was part of NaSPA, there was a discussion about this (somewhere before 1997). It is interesting that the State of NJ decided to make it happen, having the DP/IT group report to the Board of Cosmetology (I kid you not, they were going to have data processing professionals subject to a board for certifying Hair Dressers!!). There was a big hue and cry and this got stopped. Texas had some talks about it and that faded out to nothing. Many of us asked some questions about how would we certify people? How could we keep the tests current? Being a Certified VTAM USS person is not all that useful (if you don't know the real difference, just drop it and don't start), while being a certified VTAM SNA Network person with the SNI endorsement might have been a good thing. Then there is the JES3 Installation and Maint Cert. etc. etc. As you can see, the VTAM certs would not be good today because of the number of places that are really TCP oriented. This brought up the arguments about how long should a cert be good for? Being an SMP/E certified SYSPROG would probably be one of those things where the CERT would have meaning for 10 years or more. Today, having a SYSPLEX CERT would probably be a very good thing. AMDAHL DOMAIN certifications would be nearly worthless today. But an IBM LPAR certification might be good. Now, you can start to see what CERTs someone would need to have to be a MASTER SYSPROG. OK, now let's look at TSO, ISPF, HLASM, IPCS, etc. How would you determine if someone was good with TSO native commands -- would it require being able to edit some short file with the TSO native editor? HLASM: have to write a macro given certain specs, while writing a program that calculates how much money you would have, had you been paid $12.00 (US) in 1790 for some island off the east coast of the US, using 5% interest, binary arithmetic, conversion to packed decimal with floating a dollar sign (EDMK stuff) -- up to July 15th, 1996? Would that demonstrate that you could program in assembly language or that you should be doing banking programming? Who do we get to handle these things? SHARE? NaSPA? IBM? I'm all for it. But in all the discussions I've seen to date, they collapse under some argument or another. Regards, Steve Thompson The real problem with attempts at certification is that the breadth of knowledge required to be a good systems programmer and the rapidity with which things are continually changing makes any kind of certification based just on current knowledge difficult and not a very good indicator of functional competence. A systems programmer that continually keeps on top of all areas that might become relevant to his job will have little or no time left to do constructive work. The most important talents for a systems programmer are curiosity about why things happen, a logical mind, attention to detail, good familiarity with programming concepts, performance concepts, general Operating System concepts, and with one or more programming languages. An interest in understanding things at the hardware level and some understanding of how compilers do their job also helps. But, most importantly, a systems programmer must have enough general systems knowledge to know when he needs to go to references and how to research the issues of the moment, since the details have invariably changed since the last time you were extremely up on any specific, narrow topic. There are some things that are so basic and common that you expect any one claiming to be an MVS System Programmer to know and remember most of the details, like how to apply a PTF with SMP/E, or basic concepts of change management and protecting system datasets. But there are so many other things that you may only do once a year that don't lend so well to competency testing. For many questions, the best answer may be what keywords you would search for and where you would start your search. Certifications carry the greatest usefulness in professions where there is broad agreement on standards of how something must be done, and quality of work can be judged by adherence to those standards. The greater the role of creative art in a profession, the less agreement one is likely to find on what is a best technique, and the less likelihood a competency certification would correlate well with functional competency. Perhaps there are corporate environments where the job of a Systems Programmer is so rigidly limited by standards that certification might make sense. I have just never worked in such an environment, rather in ones where systems programmers
