Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
for some 4GL, Mathematica, virtual machine topic drift: A Brief History of Fourth Generation Languages http://www.decosta.com/Nomad/tales/history.html from above: One could say PRINT ACROSS MONTH SUM SALES BY DIVISION and receive a report that would have taken many hundreds of lines of Cobol to produce. The product grew in capability and in revenue, both to NCSS and to Mathematica, who enjoyed increasing royalty payments from the sizable customer base. ... snip ... RAMIS wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramis_Software Focus wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS from above: All three products flourished during the 1970s and early 1980s, but Mathematica's time ran out in the mid-80s, and NCSS also failed, a victim of the personal computing revolution which obviated commercial timesharing (although it has since been revived in the form of ASPs and shared web servers). ... snip ... and the lastest buzz word, cloud computing. Nomad wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_software from above: Nomad was claimed to be the first commercial product to incorporate relational database concepts. This seems to be borne out by the launch dates of the well-known early RDBMS vendors, which first emerged in the late 70s and early 80s -- such as Oracle (1977), Informix (1980), and Unify (1980). The seminal non-commercial research project into RDBMS concepts was IBM's System R, first installed at IBM locations in 1977. System R included and tested the original SQL implementation. ... snip ... ... system/r original developed on vm370 370/145 in bldg. 28 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#systemr and first commerical relational DBMS released on Multics in 1976 (virtual machine stuff was done at the science center on 4th flr, 545 tech sq, while multics was done on 5th flr). other SQL history ... The 1995 SQL Reunion: People, Projects, and Politics http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/index.html from above: Jim Gray: In about 1972 Stonebraker got a grant to do a geo-query database system. It was going to be used for studies of urban planning. The project did do some geographic database stuff, but fairly quickly it gravitated to building a relational database system. The result was the INGRES system[20]. INGRES started in about 1972 and a whole series of things spun off from that: Ingres[21], Britton-Lee, and Sybase. ... snip ... and computer history museum item on NCSS, RAMIS, and NOMAD http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102658182 past posts mentioning various vm-based commercial online timesharing service bureaus http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#timeshare past posts in this thread: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#76 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#80 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#83 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#12 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#14 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#16 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#17 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#18 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
I respect your knowledge, Lynn, but I cannot let that go by without saying somethings. 1. NCSS did not go away because of the PC revolution: they gave up after DB bought them. I worked there at the time on VP/CSS. There are MANY things that we did with VP/CSS that even PCs, z/VM and z/OS still cannot do (look up PROTECT EXEC in the old VM requirements for example). The powers that be at NCSS decided that although it was profitable (very much so), since DB required its subsidiaries to be number 1 or 2 in the market, they could not cut that and gave up on time-sharing. 2. NOMAD has not gone away. In fact SElect Business Solutions would still be VERY happy to sell you a license today for NOMAD or UltraQuest. Lloyd Anne Lynn Wheeler wrote: for some 4GL, Mathematica, virtual machine topic drift: A Brief History of Fourth Generation Languages http://www.decosta.com/Nomad/tales/history.html from above: One could say PRINT ACROSS MONTH SUM SALES BY DIVISION and receive a report that would have taken many hundreds of lines of Cobol to produce. The product grew in capability and in revenue, both to NCSS and to Mathematica, who enjoyed increasing royalty payments from the sizable customer base. ... snip ... RAMIS wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramis_Software Focus wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS from above: All three products flourished during the 1970s and early 1980s, but Mathematica's time ran out in the mid-80s, and NCSS also failed, a victim of the personal computing revolution which obviated commercial timesharing (although it has since been revived in the form of ASPs and shared web servers). ... snip ... and the lastest buzz word, cloud computing. Nomad wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_software from above: Nomad was claimed to be the first commercial product to incorporate relational database concepts. This seems to be borne out by the launch dates of the well-known early RDBMS vendors, which first emerged in the late 70s and early 80s -- such as Oracle (1977), Informix (1980), and Unify (1980). The seminal non-commercial research project into RDBMS concepts was IBM's System R, first installed at IBM locations in 1977. System R included and tested the original SQL implementation. ... snip ... ... system/r original developed on vm370 370/145 in bldg. 28 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#systemr and first commerical relational DBMS released on Multics in 1976 (virtual machine stuff was done at the science center on 4th flr, 545 tech sq, while multics was done on 5th flr). other SQL history ... The 1995 SQL Reunion: People, Projects, and Politics http://www.mcjones.org/System_R/SQL_Reunion_95/index.html from above: Jim Gray: In about 1972 Stonebraker got a grant to do a geo-query database system. It was going to be used for studies of urban planning. The project did do some geographic database stuff, but fairly quickly it gravitated to building a relational database system. The result was the INGRES system[20]. INGRES started in about 1972 and a whole series of things spun off from that: Ingres[21], Britton-Lee, and Sybase. ... snip ... and computer history museum item on NCSS, RAMIS, and NOMAD http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102658182 past posts mentioning various vm-based commercial online timesharing service bureaus http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#timeshare past posts in this thread: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#76 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#80 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#83 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#12 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#14 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#16 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#17 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#18 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
leful...@sbcglobal.net (Lloyd Fuller) writes: I respect your knowledge, Lynn, but I cannot let that go by without saying somethings. 1. NCSS did not go away because of the PC revolution: they gave up after DB bought them. I worked there at the time on VP/CSS. There are MANY things that we did with VP/CSS that even PCs, z/VM and z/OS still cannot do (look up PROTECT EXEC in the old VM requirements for example). The powers that be at NCSS decided that although it was profitable (very much so), since DB required its subsidiaries to be number 1 or 2 in the market, they could not cut that and gave up on time-sharing. 2. NOMAD has not gone away. In fact SElect Business Solutions would still be VERY happy to sell you a license today for NOMAD or UltraQuest. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#55 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) the quotes from the wiki pages ... possibly look at getting the wiki pages updated. there is also reference to the computer history museum item: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102658182 from above: Five of the National CSS principals participated in a recorded telephone conference call with a moderator addressing the history of the company's use of RAMIS and development of NOMAD. The licensing of RAMIS from Mathematica and the reasons for building their own product are discussed as well as the marketing of RAMIS for developing applications and then the ongoing revenue from using these applications. The development of NOMAD is discussed in detail along with its initial introduction into the marketplace as a new offering not as a migration from RAMIS. The later history of NOMAD is reviewed, including the failure to build a successor product and the inability to construct a viable PC version of NOMAD. ... snip ... i.e. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/Oral_History/102658182.05.01.acc.pdf -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
In b53f38421002251222o692b7647u771a8cf4f03ce...@mail.gmail.com, on 02/25/2010 at 03:22 PM, George Henke gahe...@gmail.com said: I believe I read somewhere, a UNIX book, that multics was the forerunner of UNIX and inspired its creator at Bell Labs I've seen the claim, but essentially none[1] of what characterized Multics was in Unix. [1] They both had replacable shells and they both had tree structured file systems. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
They admitted that UNIX was a play on the 'word' MULTICS. Eunuchs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
I quite liked Lisp. I haven't messed with it in years, but I just downloaded a version of Common Lisp that I plan to install on my laptop PC . . . where, no doubt, it will sit unused like so many other evidences of good intentions. Jon snip --snip-- LISP could cause permanent brain damage! --unsnip--- LISP = LOTS of INSERTED STUPID PARENTHESES. :-) /snip -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Unix is MULTICS with some bits cut off. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Austin, Andrew Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 8:03 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) They admitted that UNIX was a play on the 'word' MULTICS. Eunuchs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com writes: idea was to do a micro-kernel base ... in higher level language ... like some flavor of pascal ... small focused effort possibly starting with some existing assembler base and recoding into another language. re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#17 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) this post mentions mainframe pascal originally done at the los gatos lab for vlsi tool development http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#11 Crazed idea: SDSF for z/Linux One of the two people responsible (original mainframe pascal) then leaves to do a startup for clone 3270 controller; they were figuring that TSO response was so horrible (especially compared to CMS) that they could try and offload some amount of the TSO operations into the controller ... to try and improve the appearance of interactive response ... selling into the mainframe TSO market (use to drop in periodically to see how they were doing). It never caught on ... and the person then shows up as VP of software development at MIPS. After SGI buys MIPS, he shows up as general manager of the business unit responsible for JAVA (pretty early in JAVA life). recent posts discussing some of this http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#29 search engine history, was Happy DEC-10 Day as well as this earlier post in this thread (GREEN, DOE/SPRING, etc) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#80 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer and old post with bits about (DOE/SPRING) A Client-Side Stub Interpreter http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#32 Whom Do Programmers Admire Now??? -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Chase, John jch...@ussco.com wrote: If you've sufficiently mastered the art of salesmanship, you should be able to get any job you want. The art of salesmanship and z/OS system programmer are usually not used in the same sentence, alas. For example, name the only so-far-unquestioned qualification of our current President. No. Just...no. OT. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
In 969818.91284...@web54607.mail.re2.yahoo.com, on 02/21/2010 at 09:53 PM, Ed Gould ps2...@yahoo.com said: Reminds me of a performance issue I had with EREP. I ran into a couple of problems where a simple zap could speed things up by an order of magnitude. This was not a assembler vs PLS issue per se but a lousy programmer Exactly. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
In 4b814213.8070...@mentor-services.com, on 02/21/2010 at 09:24 AM, Mike Myers m...@mentor-services.com said: MVS was written in PL/S at the outset in 1972-1974. The use of PL/S was strategicas it was a structured language which would be more self-documenting than assembler and therefore easier to debug. IBM was using BSL for OS/360, especially TSO. Nor was IBM the first to use a HLL to write a commercial operating system; Burroughs wrote MCP in various flavors of Algol. Of course, there were bad examples of PL/S programming You can write FORTRAN code in any language. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) In 3edd8e2b1002211103t266af34er8393631b18756...@mail.gmail.com, on 02/21/2010 at 02:03 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com said: I do get a few resumes from folks who have been on the bench for a while and have invested that time learning C, or Java, or whatever. I've invested the time in learning Perl because for some personal tasks it's a better tool than Rexx. However, to get a job as a Perl monk I'd have to be able to show prior paid experience: Catch 22. The same applies to folks who have taught themselves, e.g., C++, Java, Python, Ruby. If you've sufficiently mastered the art of salesmanship, you should be able to get any job you want. For example, name the only so-far-unquestioned qualification of our current President. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com writes: some of the 7094/ctss people went to the science center on 4th flr of 545 tech sq (cp40/cms on a specially modified 360/40 with virtual memory hardware, morphed into cp67/cms when standard virtual memory became available on 360/67, invented GML ... which later morphs into SGML, HTML, XML, etc). others went to 5th flr of 545 tech sq and implemented multics ... all done in PLI. multics references: http://www.multicians.org/multics.html re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#12 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) for additional language trivia ... the boston programming center was on the 3rd flow (until cp67 development group split off from the science center, morphed into vm370 development group and absorbed the 3rd flr along all of the boston programming center, this was before outgrowing the 3rd flr and moving into the bldg. out in burlington mall that had been vacated when SBC was transferred to CDC). Jean Sammet was in the boston programming center ... ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_E._Sammet from above: She was also a member of the subcommittee which created COBOL. Sammet was president of the ACM from 1974 to 1976. ... snip ... and BPC also had produced CPS ... online interactive system that supported PLI and BASIC that ran under os/360. CPS also had a special microcode performance assist for the 360/50 (when BPS was absorbed by vm370 group, they did a version of CPS that ran in CMS ... somewhat akin to the work that was done on apl\360 for cms\apl; somewhere in boxes I have hardcopy of the CPS/CMS description). old post referencing that some amount of CPS work had been subcontracted(?) to Allen-Babcock http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#71 Is SUN going to become x86'ed?? reference: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/allen-babcock/cps/ Above allen-babcock (IBM) documents references other ibm documents by N. Rochester (who was also at boston programming center, when it was absorbed by the vm370 group). -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
In a826b9fd78356242a9d9595912f9b2322c285b0...@doittmail03.doitt.nycnet, on 02/22/2010 at 09:31 AM, Barkow, Eileen ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov said: It is not easy learning java and the other languages (especially C), Any competent programmer should be able to pick up a new language easily, although it may take a while to become proficient. The first language is the hardest. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
My point was that java and the other languages, though not easy, are relatively easier to learn than operating systems and subsystem software products which have to be paid for and deployed in a real work environment - not just from a desktop at home. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of McKown, John Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 1:08 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:08 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) In a826b9fd78356242a9d9595912f9b2322c285b0...@doittmail03.doitt.nycnet, on 02/22/2010 at 09:31 AM, Barkow, Eileen ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov said: It is not easy learning java and the other languages (especially C), Any competent programmer should be able to pick up a new language easily, although it may take a while to become proficient. The first language is the hardest. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT I agree. Well, mostly. Some languages may be a bit more difficult. LISP could cause permanent brain damage! Java is rather easy. Especially when used in conjunction with Eclipse or Netbeans. Erlang and Haskell can be a bit mind bending (or expanding). Perl is nice, but it often is executable line noise. Python is nothing really new. I haven't looked at Ruby. I have looked at three Java offshoots: Groovy, Scala, and Clojure. But APL remains my one, true, love. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
OK, could we please drop all political discussions? Pretty please? With sugar on it? Or, if we're going to be nasty, then let's go after the Windows Weenies. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:08 AM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) In a826b9fd78356242a9d9595912f9b2322c285b0...@doittmail03.doitt.nycnet, on 02/22/2010 at 09:31 AM, Barkow, Eileen ebar...@doitt.nyc.gov said: It is not easy learning java and the other languages (especially C), Any competent programmer should be able to pick up a new language easily, although it may take a while to become proficient. The first language is the hardest. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT I agree. Well, mostly. Some languages may be a bit more difficult. LISP could cause permanent brain damage! Java is rather easy. Especially when used in conjunction with Eclipse or Netbeans. Erlang and Haskell can be a bit mind bending (or expanding). Perl is nice, but it often is executable line noise. Python is nothing really new. I haven't looked at Ruby. I have looked at three Java offshoots: Groovy, Scala, and Clojure. But APL remains my one, true, love. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. shmuel+ibm-m...@patriot.net (Shmuel Metz , Seymour J.) writes: IBM was using BSL for OS/360, especially TSO. Nor was IBM the first to use a HLL to write a commercial operating system; Burroughs wrote MCP in various flavors of Algol. some of the 7094/ctss people went to the science center on 4th flr of 545 tech sq (cp40/cms on a specially modified 360/40 with virtual memory hardware, morphed into cp67/cms when standard virtual memory became available on 360/67, invented GML ... which later morphs into SGML, HTML, XML, etc). others went to 5th flr of 545 tech sq and implemented multics ... all done in PLI. multics references: http://www.multicians.org/multics.html multics was the first to release commercial relational database product in 1976. air force did a security study of multics in early 70s. a few years ago, ibm research did a paper revisiting the mutlics security study ... recent post in this mailing list on the subject: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010b.html#97 The Naked Mainframe (Forbes Security Article) a couple recent posts in other threads mentioning HLL: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#10 Need tool to zap core http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#11 Crazed idea: SDSF for z/Linux one of the things mentioned in Jim's departing MIP Envy was that the PLS group had been dissolved during the FS years ... and when reconsituted it only supported PLS on MVS http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#80 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#84 Adventure - Or Colossal Cave Adventure ... which made it difficult for use doing System/R http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#systemr -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
On 25 Feb 2010 09:57:52 -0800, jch...@ussco.com (Chase, John) wrote: If you've sufficiently mastered the art of salesmanship, you should be able to get any job you want. For example, name the only so-far-unquestioned qualification of our current President. That's it. Let's start a rumor that he's only 22 years old! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Uh oh, we've got a teabagger on the list! Watch the hyperbole and incoherence fly while we pretend the last ten years were somehow a lifetime ago. http://www.viceland.com/int/v12n8/htdocs/its.php Scott On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Chase, John jch...@ussco.com wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) In 3edd8e2b1002211103t266af34er8393631b18756...@mail.gmail.com, on 02/21/2010 at 02:03 PM, zMan zedgarhoo...@gmail.com said: I do get a few resumes from folks who have been on the bench for a while and have invested that time learning C, or Java, or whatever. I've invested the time in learning Perl because for some personal tasks it's a better tool than Rexx. However, to get a job as a Perl monk I'd have to be able to show prior paid experience: Catch 22. The same applies to folks who have taught themselves, e.g., C++, Java, Python, Ruby. If you've sufficiently mastered the art of salesmanship, you should be able to get any job you want. For example, name the only so-far-unquestioned qualification of our current President. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com writes: some of the 7094/ctss people went to the science center on 4th flr of 545 tech sq (cp40/cms on a specially modified 360/40 with virtual memory hardware, morphed into cp67/cms when standard virtual memory became available on 360/67, invented GML ... which later morphs into SGML, HTML, XML, etc). others went to 5th flr of 545 tech sq and implemented multics ... all done in PLI. multics references: I believe I read somewhere, a UNIX book, that multics was the forerunner of UNIX and inspired its creator at Bell Labs On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:18 PM, Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.comwrote: The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. Anne Lynn Wheeler l...@garlic.com writes: some of the 7094/ctss people went to the science center on 4th flr of 545 tech sq (cp40/cms on a specially modified 360/40 with virtual memory hardware, morphed into cp67/cms when standard virtual memory became available on 360/67, invented GML ... which later morphs into SGML, HTML, XML, etc). others went to 5th flr of 545 tech sq and implemented multics ... all done in PLI. multics references: http://www.multicians.org/multics.html re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#12 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) for additional language trivia ... the boston programming center was on the 3rd flow (until cp67 development group split off from the science center, morphed into vm370 development group and absorbed the 3rd flr along all of the boston programming center, this was before outgrowing the 3rd flr and moving into the bldg. out in burlington mall that had been vacated when SBC was transferred to CDC). Jean Sammet was in the boston programming center ... ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_E._Sammet from above: She was also a member of the subcommittee which created COBOL. Sammet was president of the ACM from 1974 to 1976. ... snip ... and BPC also had produced CPS ... online interactive system that supported PLI and BASIC that ran under os/360. CPS also had a special microcode performance assist for the 360/50 (when BPS was absorbed by vm370 group, they did a version of CPS that ran in CMS ... somewhat akin to the work that was done on apl\360 for cms\apl; somewhere in boxes I have hardcopy of the CPS/CMS description). old post referencing that some amount of CPS work had been subcontracted(?) to Allen-Babcock http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2008s.html#71 Is SUN going to become x86'ed?? reference: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/allen-babcock/cps/ Above allen-babcock (IBM) documents references other ibm documents by N. Rochester (who was also at boston programming center, when it was absorbed by the vm370 group). -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- George Henke (C) 845 401 5614 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. gahe...@gmail.com (George Henke) writes: I believe I read somewhere, a UNIX book, that multics was the forerunner of UNIX and inspired its creator at Bell Labs re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#76 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#80 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#83 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#12 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#14 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) I'd commented in the 80s about tripping across some unix scheduler code that looked very similar to code in release 1 cp67 that I had completely replaced as undergraduate in the 60s ... possibly both inherited from something in CTSS (cp67 directly from ctss, and unix possibly indirectly by way of multics, DR may comment on this over in a.f.c.) -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
I believe I read somewhere, a UNIX book, that multics was the forerunner of UNIX and inspired its creator at Bell Labs Creators. Kernigan (sp?) and Ritchie. They admitted that UNIX was a play on the 'word' MULTICS. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
In a message dated 2/25/2010 2:33:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, eamacn...@yahoo.ca writes: They admitted that UNIX was a play on the 'word' MULTICS. _http://multicians.org/_ (http://multicians.org/) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Creators. Kernigan (sp?) and Ritchie. They admitted that UNIX was a play on the 'word' MULTICS. Correct. That is what I read. I believe at the time they were somehow forced by hardware constraints or system availability to scale MULTICS down to one object or so they dubbed it UNIX. On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Ted MacNEIL eamacn...@yahoo.ca wrote: I believe I read somewhere, a UNIX book, that multics was the forerunner of UNIX and inspired its creator at Bell Labs Creators. Kernigan (sp?) and Ritchie. They admitted that UNIX was a play on the 'word' MULTICS. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- George Henke (C) 845 401 5614 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 15:33 -0500, Ted MacNEIL wrote: Creators. Kernigan (sp?) and Ritchie. Hrm. You're thinking KR, the C book. Ken Thompson originated Unix. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
--snip-- LISP could cause permanent brain damage! --unsnip--- LISP = LOTS of INSERTED STUPID PARENTHESES. :-) Rick -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
I believe at the time they were somehow forced by hardware constraints or system availability to scale MULTICS down to one object or so they dubbed it UNIX. It wasn't quite that bad. It was more that they saw it as a toy rather than a real system. They wrote it because they could. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Hrm. You're thinking KR, the C book. Ken Thompson originated Unix. They, since they were all working at Bell Labs, were all involved. The team was: Ken Thompson Dennis Ritchie Brian Kernighan Douglas McIlroy Joe Ossanna - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
LISP = LOTS of INSERTED STUPID PARENTHESES. I had to use both PROLOG and LISP in my AI course at UOW, in 1977. My brain still hurts! - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
On 25 Feb 2010 11:12:51 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: OK, could we please drop all political discussions? Pretty please? With sugar on it? Or, if we're going to be nasty, then let's go after the Windows Weenies. How much of the problems with Windows in a commercial environment come about because people don't pay attention to the warnings and logs that Windows provides? I am fairly certain that a well disciplined shop (one that test fixes where appropriate, reads the blurbs that come with them, does research, etc.) probably has a fairly reliable system. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:15 PM, Clark Morris cfmpub...@ns.sympatico.cawrote: How much of the problems with Windows in a commercial environment come about because people don't pay attention to the warnings and logs that Windows provides? I am fairly certain that a well disciplined shop (one that test fixes where appropriate, reads the blurbs that come with them, does research, etc.) probably has a fairly reliable system. A fair bit. The rest of the problem is that, because Windows must cater to Aunt Edith with her aging 800MHz PIII and 64MB, it's not practical for them to offer the level of control that you and I would expect. There is *some* -- you aren't forced to accept all Windows patches, in theory. But *de facto * you are, because if you start playing mixmatch, you pretty quickly wind up in a dependency hole -- often one from which you cannot easily extricate yourself. It's an age-old issue, and one that there's no good answer to. IBM makes it work better, but that's largely because their audience is more skilled and demands it (and pays for it). And there are still plenty of cases of required pre-req PTFs that we aren't always happy installing, no? The only real solution is bug-free software. Oh, and no added function between releases. Yeah, that'll be fun... -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
The following message is a courtesy copy of an article that has been posted to bit.listserv.ibm-main,alt.folklore.computers as well. On 02/25/2010 09:21 PM, Clark Morris wrote: Would Multics have been a good base for a modern operating system? Was killing Multics a mistake? re: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#12 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) well with multics on the 5th flr and virtual machines on the 4th flr ... there was modicum of competition ... and i'm a little biased. one of my hobbies in the past is doing my own product distribution ... at one point had as many csc/vm internal installations as the total number of multics installations. later on the kick about HLL ... recent refs: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#10 Need tool to zap core http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#11 Crazed idea: SDSF for z/Linux http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010e.html#12 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) i did it as theme for internal advanced technology conference (mar82) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#4a ... above included talk on running CMS applications under MVS ... also mentioned here http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#66 LPARS: More or Less? idea was to do a micro-kernel base ... in higher level language ... like some flavor of pascal ... small focused effort possibly starting with some existing assembler base and recoding into another language. cp67 had started pretty clean micro-kernel. one of the issues with vm370 and later flavors was that there were increasing number of traditional operating system developers working on the platform that it starting to take on characteristics of traditional operating system bloat. Hardware microcode engineers (as develepors ) always seemed to be better and preserving the philosiphy of the microkernel. So, one of the things that happened when tss/360 was decommiitted was that the support/development group was radically reduced ... which tended to reflect in reduction in implementation bloat (aka at one point tss/360 supposedly had something approaching 1100-1200 people at a time when cp67/cms had 11-12 people). After awhile tss/370 was starting to take on some interesting characteristics. Something that further contributed to this was a project for ATT was to do a stripped down tss/370 kernel (SSUP) with unix api layered on top (also presented at mar82 conference) In any case, there was an activity to compare the size/complexity of tss/370 ssup against vm370 ... as candidate for new kernel base ... converted to higher level language. small piece of the analysis (vm/sp against tss/370 kernel). TSS versus VM/SP TSS VM/SP modules 109 261 LOC 51k 232k ... snip ... other pieces of analysis: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#53 At one point there was a corporate get together in kingston plantsite cafeteria ... it was supposed to be a VM/XB meeting (play on next generation after XA); the cafeteria people misheard and put up sign that said ZM/XB meeting. The problem was then corporation decided it was going to be strategic ... and then grew into a couple hundred people writing specs (a FS moment?) ... an old email http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007h.html#email830527 in this post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2007h.html#57 above email also makes reference that i was sponsoring Boyd's briefing at ibm ... recent posts mentioning Boyd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010d.html#76 Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) other past posts mentioning Boyd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd1 misc. URLs from around the web mentioning Boyd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd2 misc other past posts mentioning ZM investigation/effort http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#41 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#27 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#25 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#46 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#14 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003e.html#56 -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
-SNIP- If you've sufficiently mastered the art of salesmanship, you should be able to get any job you want. For example, name the only so-far-unquestioned qualification of our current President. -jc- John: Or the Governor of Alaska. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
It is not easy learning java and the other languages (especially C), but the fact of the matter is that all the components needed to become a 'senior java developer' can be self-taught and executed. Java is free as are hundreds of tutorials and self-study courses and most of the software needed for development, including web servers and databases (including IBM products like WebSphere community edition and DB2-EXPRESS) can be downloaded, learned and run for free. In order to become a MVS systems programmer, even a junior level one, you have to actually work for a company running a mainframe and paying licensing fees for all of the products. So it is a lot easier to become a java developer than a MVS systems programmers, if not intellectually then at least logistically. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:33 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) Scott, Forgive me but indeed, point and click is exactly where we are. Take either Visual Age or Eclipse as an example. Again, Forgive me but what exactly would be the definition of a good developer in today world ?? .. I maintain, the kids that are coming out of college w/JAVA and or C++ don't have a clue !!. Kind Regards, Jim Thomas 617-233-4130 (mobile) 636-294-1014 (res) j...@thethomasresidence.us -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) Since when did point and click become a language? Is more an indication of your not getting it than the downward spiral of those damn kids and rock-an^h^h^h^h^h^h^h indie music. The momentum in computer science has always been to do more with less. Rather than asperger-ing it out with ye mighty command-line tools, computer science has taken a more humane approach. Create better (and better) SDKs and methodologies, elevating design and interface considerations to more than just an after thought. Those SDKs do a lot more with every release and a good developer has to have a lot of concepts tucked away in his pocket. A good developer (then and now) has to know a lot. I'm also not so sure that administering a platform is going to be dumbed down to //setup exec pgm=setup. I think IBM has strangled z/OS from a lot of different angles, and the belief is that the platform must go in that direction to maintain a few more years of profitability. Luckily IBM has gone to great lengths to defile the entire platform that I have no doubt it would blow up in their face. I never doubt IBM's ability to do something wrong and destructive, though I'm always mind-blown at how willing everyone else is to pay for it. System administration, now and in the foreseeable future, is hardly going to be a set it and forget it endeavor. It's going to involve administering many systems/platforms from a single source, using tools to simplify and automate. Companies that see the value in this will use it to empower competent admins, who can use their knowledge to accelerate development efforts and lockdown security. Know-nothing middle managers, everywhere else, will botch the rollout of anything good and use it to cut headcount because the IBM-Starbucks School of Management exists to rape all that is holy in this world. Scott On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Jim Thomas j...@thethomasresidence.uswrote: All, Aside from being a well versed low level developer, I was also an OS Systems Programmer that also took on sub-systems and program products. That said, many a moon ago, a wise man once posted about the role of a MVS systems programmer (in the future that is) it was just a one line post... and it said . //setup exec pgm=setup Personally, I do not think we're too far away from just that. Java ?? Visual Age ? .. C++ ... personally, I think all the guru's out there have contributed to destroying the PC world so now they're on to something bigger and better. Let's destroy the mainframe world. Gee.. what would it be ... blue screen of death or for historic purposes, a green screen of death ?. Since when did point and click become a language ?. As humans, we tend to put computers into children's hands ... but hang on, do we also want to put knives or hack saws or anything else that's dangerous into their hands ?. Humm... I wonder why ?. But hang on ... let's look at the so called engineer's coming out of school today. If it were not for the fancy point and click applications how far would they get ?. Specifically, can someone show me a young college grad that knows what a log table is ?. Economy ?? okay .. how come it does not affect CEO's and CEO's
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Don't despair, Tom et al, this is purely a question of perception, supply and demand, and has absolutely nothing at all to do with skill. As you, Tom, well know, being one of the best, and have pointed out, z/OS, requires more skill then ever. Having installed z/OS, z/VM, and VSE dozens of times, the lastest being z/VM 5.4 last November ($80/hr after voluntarilly granting a $5/hr discount for the economy), let me assure you the market is on the way back and things are by no means less complex. With Parallel Sysplex and GDPS there is a greater centralization of data, knowledge, ie power, than ever. And if risk/reward is any measure of value, latest estimates place the time a Wall Street financial firm will stay in business after losing their z/OS system is approximately 30 minutes most of which will be consumed, as one person has pointed out, with yelling, screaming, and handringing. Having worked for such a firm recently which was driven by 44 CICS/DB2 mainframe applications concealed behind Powerbuilder GUI, top management had deluded themselves into thinking the toy machines were actually running the bank and thought they could sunset z/OS in about 10 years. And this the prevaling view among Wall Street toy machine top management most of whom have never spent a day in the z/OS mainframe trenches. Perhaps, there are some out there who remember, Du Pont, not the chemcal company, but the Wall Street brokerage house that was run by EDS, Ross Perot, facilities management. They went out of business, because of their back office could not keep up with the trades. A few years after at Citibank, NY, I ran into one of the best managers, directors, I had ever seen. He had complete control, everything organized to a T. I asked him, how and why he was sooo different from all the rest. Where did he come from. He told me he was in charge of Du Pont computer operations. He said he saw it coming but he could not do anything about it. He told Ross he wanted to resign. Ross said if he resigned he would sue him. He resigned and Ross sued. Ross did not win. So if toy machine management does not know where the processing is happening, where the risk is, and where the controls, manpower, and budget, are needed to cover that risk, it is only a question of time before history will repeat itself with another Du Pont. On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Barkow, Eileen ebar...@doitt.nyc.govwrote: It is not easy learning java and the other languages (especially C), but the fact of the matter is that all the components needed to become a 'senior java developer' can be self-taught and executed. Java is free as are hundreds of tutorials and self-study courses and most of the software needed for development, including web servers and databases (including IBM products like WebSphere community edition and DB2-EXPRESS) can be downloaded, learned and run for free. In order to become a MVS systems programmer, even a junior level one, you have to actually work for a company running a mainframe and paying licensing fees for all of the products. So it is a lot easier to become a java developer than a MVS systems programmers, if not intellectually then at least logistically. -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Jim Thomas Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:33 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) Scott, Forgive me but indeed, point and click is exactly where we are. Take either Visual Age or Eclipse as an example. Again, Forgive me but what exactly would be the definition of a good developer in today world ?? .. I maintain, the kids that are coming out of college w/JAVA and or C++ don't have a clue !!. Kind Regards, Jim Thomas 617-233-4130 (mobile) 636-294-1014 (res) j...@thethomasresidence.us -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) Since when did point and click become a language? Is more an indication of your not getting it than the downward spiral of those damn kids and rock-an^h^h^h^h^h^h^h indie music. The momentum in computer science has always been to do more with less. Rather than asperger-ing it out with ye mighty command-line tools, computer science has taken a more humane approach. Create better (and better) SDKs and methodologies, elevating design and interface considerations to more than just an after thought. Those SDKs do a lot more with every release and a good developer has to have a lot of concepts tucked away in his pocket. A good developer (then and now) has to know a lot. I'm also not so sure that administering a platform is going to be dumbed
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Why do you think most of MVS is written in PLX instead of assembler so IBM can hire college kids for nothing to program the OS On the outside world you would need to code Assembler macros for authorized services Sent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Pinnacle pinnc...@rochester.rr.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Gabriel Tully gjtu...@gmail.com Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer On 2/20/2010 11:41 AM, J R wrote: They wore lab coats? They were called MVS administrators? I was being facetious, but I get it - allow me to back-peddle. Sorry, I didn't mean to condescend. I'm just tired of reading about the consipriacy to lower the standard of living of systems programmers and the attitude of entitlement. There are a lot of smart MVSers who wish they could get a job for $65 an hour. rant Dude, Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods of nearly everyone on this list. Discussing the nature of the employment market in z/OS and the future of that market is extremely important, and I will continue to post relevant information on that topic. Feel free to lay out your arguments, if you have any, but stuff your personal attacks. What I'm talking about is an ARTIFICIAL lowering of bill rates and salaries that has NOTHING to do with market forces. I'm all about capitalism and supply and demand, but that's not what's going on here. On one hand, IBM laments the lack of z/OS talent and worries that the lack of talent will mean the death of z/OS in the not-too- distant future (say 10-15 years). So they restart the academic initiative in order to train more z/OS talent. On the other hand, another arm of IBM has created its own Tower of Babel in Dubuque, IA, and declared by fiat that they'll only pay $40/hr for 20 years of MVS experience, less than 50% of the going rate just two years before. The back story on the Dubuque, IA deal is that IBM got millions of dollars of tax breaks in exchange for the promise of bringing thousands of jobs to Dubuque (see the posting a few weeks ago that referenced articles on that subject). Not bad, promising jobs at below-market wages in exchange for tax breaks, but IBM has not yet provided any employment numbers to the good folks of Dubuque or the state of Iowa. I suspect as do others that IBM has finally encountered resistance to the $40/hr price point. I am mail-bombed with 4-10 Emails a week for these positions, and it's clear from DICE and other jobs boards that IBM is blanketing the country looking for people to fill these positions. This is all actually happening, I'm not making anything up. I posted the Java developer position here because I have maintained that IBM's Academic Initiative is doomed to failure. Why would any college student go into z/OS when they can make much more doing Java or Web development? Others have scoffed at that idea, but I've been looking for a long-term z/OS contract since 5/2009, and they're significantly lower than the $700-$900/day offered in that Java developer posting. BTW, if that's what they're offering, you could probably negotiate even more. So I ask again, why would a college student choose z/OS as a career when more money can be made elsewhere? Let's deal with your other point that z/OS systems programming is becoming easier. Really? Unless you have lots of money to spend on OEM software, it's just as hard as it always was. CA's MSM? Only does the SMP/E, deployment and configuration yet to come. z/OSMF? It simplifies dump submission to IBM, if your mainframe is on the Internet, other functionality is a ways away. WLM is just as hard as IPS/ICS ever was, it just changed the knobs. JES2, VTAM, TCP/IP, OSA's, HMC, CICS, DB2, WAS, USS, performance and cap planning, storage management, Parallel Sysplex, Disaster Recovery, hardware planning and installation, etc. Which of these areas have gotten easier? I submit that z/OS systems programming isn't getting easier. Instead, it's more demanding than ever. For every ounce of labor savings in less experienced sysprogs, you need a pound of more experienced sysprogs to ensure that you realize even bigger savings. I've seen firsthand how low-cost z/OS labor ends up costing much more in missed deadlines and
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Joe: MVS was written in PL/S at the outset in 1972-1974. The use of PL/S was strategicas it was a structured language which would be more self-documenting than assembler and therefore easier to debug. To code any MVS component in assembler, you had to justify it and get a deviation to do so. I got such a deviation for both Quickcell and for Paging Services, which I wrote for the original release. The deviation was justified by the performance requireed of these components (their path lengths). Similarly, Art Kennard, who was a member of my team, got a deviation for Getmain/Freemain. There were other deviations for other components, I am sure, but the development plan, which I co-authored, specified PL/S as the programming standard. The roughly 1,000 of us who programmed the first MVS release wrote mostly in PL/S and were NOT college kids, but had been IBM employees for several years. Some had previously designed or programmed components of SVS and OS/360. Of course, there were bad examples of PL/S programming as there had also been in assembler. One such example was Auxiliary Storage Manager, which I first encountered in an early driver. It had serious path-length problems that affected the paging path. Among its shortcomings were: calculations for loop-terminating conditions inside the loop, rather than outside, many of which caused the generated code to use costly multiply and divide instructions in the calculations (to test specific flag bits). Another was caused by the modular nature of the code, where each module getmained dynamic storage for register save areas and then freemained it at termination. It was necessary to recode many of the loops and to create an array of save areas acquired once at IPL, and which were subsequently assigned to each ASM module, based on its depth in the nesting hierarchy. After the re-writes. the paging path length became acceptable. So if IBM was plotting to use PL/S (or PL/X) so they could replace its programmers with cheaper college kids, it took 35 years for the plot to come to fruition. BTW, I have not programmed in PL/x since leaving IBM and still program in assembler. If I had access to a PL/x compiler, I would use it in my consulting assignments, however. Mike Myers Mentor Services Corporation . On 2/21/2010 8:09 AM, Joe Reichman wrote: Why do you think most of MVS is written in PLX instead of assembler so IBM can hire college kids for nothing to program the OS On the outside world you would need to code Assembler macros for authorized services Sent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Pinnacle pinnc...@rochester.rr.com wrote: - Original Message - From: Gabriel Tully gjtu...@gmail.com Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer On 2/20/2010 11:41 AM, J R wrote: They wore lab coats? They were called MVS administrators? I was being facetious, but I get it - allow me to back-peddle. Sorry, I didn't mean to condescend. I'm just tired of reading about the consipriacy to lower the standard of living of systems programmers and the attitude of entitlement. There are a lot of smart MVSers who wish they could get a job for $65 an hour. rant Dude, Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods of nearly everyone on this list. Discussing the nature of the employment market in z/OS and the future of that market is extremely important, and I will continue to post relevant information on that topic. Feel free to lay out your arguments, if you have any, but stuff your personal attacks. What I'm talking about is an ARTIFICIAL lowering of bill rates and salaries that has NOTHING to do with market forces. I'm all about capitalism and supply and demand, but that's not what's going on here. On one hand, IBM laments the lack of z/OS talent and worries that the lack of talent will mean the death of z/OS in the not-too-distant future (say 10-15 years). So they restart the academic initiative in order to train more z/OS talent. On the other hand, another arm of IBM has created its own Tower of Babel in Dubuque, IA, and declared by fiat that they'll only pay $40/hr for 20 years of MVS experience, less than 50% of the going rate just two years before. The back story on the Dubuque, IA deal is that IBM got millions of dollars of tax breaks in exchange for the promise of bringing
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
On 2/20/2010 5:49 PM, Pinnacle wrote: Dude, Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods of nearly everyone on this list. Discussing the nature of the employment market in z/OS and the future of that market is extremely important, and I will continue to post relevant information on that topic. Feel free to lay out your arguments, if you have any, but stuff your personal attacks. What I'm talking about is an ARTIFICIAL lowering of bill rates and salaries that has NOTHING to do with market forces. I'm all about capitalism and supply and demand, but that's not what's going on here. On one hand, IBM laments the lack of z/OS talent and worries that the lack of talent will mean the death of z/OS in the not-too-distant future (say 10-15 years). So they restart the academic initiative in order to train more z/OS talent. On the other hand, another arm of IBM has created its own Tower of Babel in Dubuque, IA, and declared by fiat that they'll only pay $40/hr for 20 years of MVS experience, less than 50% of the going rate just two years before. The back story on the Dubuque, IA deal is that IBM got millions of dollars of tax breaks in exchange for the promise of bringing thousands of jobs to Dubuque (see the posting a few weeks ago that referenced articles on that subject). Not bad, promising jobs at below-market wages in exchange for tax breaks, but IBM has not yet provided any employment numbers to the good folks of Dubuque or the state of Iowa. I suspect as do others that IBM has finally encountered resistance to the $40/hr price point. I am mail-bombed with 4-10 Emails a week for these positions, and it's clear from DICE and other jobs boards that IBM is blanketing the country looking for people to fill these positions. This is all actually happening, I'm not making anything up. I posted the Java developer position here because I have maintained that IBM's Academic Initiative is doomed to failure. Why would any college student go into z/OS when they can make much more doing Java or Web development? Others have scoffed at that idea, but I've been looking for a long-term z/OS contract since 5/2009, and they're significantly lower than the $700-$900/day offered in that Java developer posting. BTW, if that's what they're offering, you could probably negotiate even more. So I ask again, why would a college student choose z/OS as a career when more money can be made elsewhere? Let's deal with your other point that z/OS systems programming is becoming easier. Really? Unless you have lots of money to spend on OEM software, it's just as hard as it always was. CA's MSM? Only does the SMP/E, deployment and configuration yet to come. z/OSMF? It simplifies dump submission to IBM, if your mainframe is on the Internet, other functionality is a ways away. WLM is just as hard as IPS/ICS ever was, it just changed the knobs. JES2, VTAM, TCP/IP, OSA's, HMC, CICS, DB2, WAS, USS, performance and cap planning, storage management, Parallel Sysplex, Disaster Recovery, hardware planning and installation, etc. Which of these areas have gotten easier? I submit that z/OS systems programming isn't getting easier. Instead, it's more demanding than ever. For every ounce of labor savings in less experienced sysprogs, you need a pound of more experienced sysprogs to ensure that you realize even bigger savings. I've seen firsthand how low-cost z/OS labor ends up costing much more in missed deadlines and incorrect configurations. If you have evidence that z/OS systems programming is getting easier, please post. Tom, You are right, I shouldn't have attacked you. Sorry, I regretted sending the mail almost immediately. I hope you take it for what it was, a bad case of judgment and a fit of nerd-rage and not a personal attack on your adaptability or intent. I guess I'm frustrated about a lot of the same points you bring up. I hear about a lack of new talent in our industry, but I've never know so many of my colleagues to be out of work. I wish I could point them to a $40 an hour job - none would turn their nose up at the idea. But I guess you aren't saying that they should. Or are you? That is what I don't understand. How does this artificial, and by extension man-made, downward pressure on salary have any meaning to someone who has been out of work for an extended period? To me it seems like entitlement when you post - scoffing at job with a
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
All, Aside from being a well versed low level developer, I was also an OS Systems Programmer that also took on sub-systems and program products. That said, many a moon ago, a wise man once posted about the role of a MVS systems programmer (in the future that is) it was just a one line post... and it said . //setup exec pgm=setup Personally, I do not think we're too far away from just that. Java ?? Visual Age ? .. C++ ... personally, I think all the guru's out there have contributed to destroying the PC world so now they're on to something bigger and better. Let's destroy the mainframe world. Gee.. what would it be ... blue screen of death or for historic purposes, a green screen of death ?. Since when did point and click become a language ?. As humans, we tend to put computers into children's hands ... but hang on, do we also want to put knives or hack saws or anything else that's dangerous into their hands ?. Humm... I wonder why ?. But hang on ... let's look at the so called engineer's coming out of school today. If it were not for the fancy point and click applications how far would they get ?. Specifically, can someone show me a young college grad that knows what a log table is ?. Economy ?? okay .. how come it does not affect CEO's and CEO's that manage to lay off just about the entire company ?. Kind Regards, Jim Thomas 617-233-4130 (mobile) 636-294-1014 (res) j...@thethomasresidence.us -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel Tully Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) On 2/20/2010 5:49 PM, Pinnacle wrote: Dude, Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods of nearly everyone on this list. Discussing the nature of the employment market in z/OS and the future of that market is extremely important, and I will continue to post relevant information on that topic. Feel free to lay out your arguments, if you have any, but stuff your personal attacks. What I'm talking about is an ARTIFICIAL lowering of bill rates and salaries that has NOTHING to do with market forces. I'm all about capitalism and supply and demand, but that's not what's going on here. On one hand, IBM laments the lack of z/OS talent and worries that the lack of talent will mean the death of z/OS in the not-too-distant future (say 10-15 years). So they restart the academic initiative in order to train more z/OS talent. On the other hand, another arm of IBM has created its own Tower of Babel in Dubuque, IA, and declared by fiat that they'll only pay $40/hr for 20 years of MVS experience, less than 50% of the going rate just two years before. The back story on the Dubuque, IA deal is that IBM got millions of dollars of tax breaks in exchange for the promise of bringing thousands of jobs to Dubuque (see the posting a few weeks ago that referenced articles on that subject). Not bad, promising jobs at below-market wages in exchange for tax breaks, but IBM has not yet provided any employment numbers to the good folks of Dubuque or the state of Iowa. I suspect as do others that IBM has finally encountered resistance to the $40/hr price point. I am mail-bombed with 4-10 Emails a week for these positions, and it's clear from DICE and other jobs boards that IBM is blanketing the country looking for people to fill these positions. This is all actually happening, I'm not making anything up. I posted the Java developer position here because I have maintained that IBM's Academic Initiative is doomed to failure. Why would any college student go into z/OS when they can make much more doing Java or Web development? Others have scoffed at that idea, but I've been looking for a long-term z/OS contract since 5/2009, and they're significantly lower than the $700-$900/day offered in that Java developer posting. BTW, if that's what they're offering, you could probably negotiate even more. So I ask again, why would a college student choose z/OS as a career when more money can be made elsewhere? Let's deal with your other point that z/OS systems programming is becoming easier. Really? Unless you have lots of money to spend on OEM software, it's just as hard as it always was. CA's MSM? Only does the SMP/E, deployment and configuration
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Gabriel Tully gjtu...@gmail.com wrote: On 2/20/2010 5:49 PM, Pinnacle wrote: major snippage There are some good points being made here. The real systems jocks of the past are getting thin on the ground (not so much thin themselves :-) ), but the demand for them is also fading outside of vendors. Meanwhile, the folks who think that basic MVS system administrator skills should continue to be in high demand and get paid accordingly are still missing the point: - there are fewer MVS shops - the remaining shops expect their remaining MVS folks to do more than before, frequently including not replacing retirees - the positions that do come open are rarely pure MVS sysprog work This last is the only one that any of us can do anything about: we need to NOT be myopic, but rather to embrace the Other Worlds. I see resumes all the time from folks who haven't done anything new in 30 years. Why would I hire them? So they're experts at SMP/E or COBOL -- z/OS is pretty stable, and I can train a mid-level person to do most SMP/E work, and we aren't developing huge new COBOL apps, even if we do have lots of code to maintain. I need folks who get Linux, Windows, Solaris, TCP/IP, C, C++, Java, etc., etc., etc. I hear staff at various shops expressing no interest in Linux, or even UNIX System Services, or even Rexx. These are hardly late-breaking technologies in z/OS; these people think Windows is useless other than as a terminal emulator. Well, sorry, that's not the Zeitgeist, and that's why you're unemployable. I do get a few resumes from folks who have been on the bench for a while and have invested that time learning C, or Java, or whatever. While I may or may not be able to hire them, I at least consider them, as they're both trainable and smart enough to recognize the necessity. You don't have to like this, but it's reality. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Since when did point and click become a language? Is more an indication of your not getting it than the downward spiral of those damn kids and rock-an^h^h^h^h^h^h^h indie music. The momentum in computer science has always been to do more with less. Rather than asperger-ing it out with ye mighty command-line tools, computer science has taken a more humane approach. Create better (and better) SDKs and methodologies, elevating design and interface considerations to more than just an after thought. Those SDKs do a lot more with every release and a good developer has to have a lot of concepts tucked away in his pocket. A good developer (then and now) has to know a lot. I'm also not so sure that administering a platform is going to be dumbed down to //setup exec pgm=setup. I think IBM has strangled z/OS from a lot of different angles, and the belief is that the platform must go in that direction to maintain a few more years of profitability. Luckily IBM has gone to great lengths to defile the entire platform that I have no doubt it would blow up in their face. I never doubt IBM's ability to do something wrong and destructive, though I'm always mind-blown at how willing everyone else is to pay for it. System administration, now and in the foreseeable future, is hardly going to be a set it and forget it endeavor. It's going to involve administering many systems/platforms from a single source, using tools to simplify and automate. Companies that see the value in this will use it to empower competent admins, who can use their knowledge to accelerate development efforts and lockdown security. Know-nothing middle managers, everywhere else, will botch the rollout of anything good and use it to cut headcount because the IBM-Starbucks School of Management exists to rape all that is holy in this world. Scott On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Jim Thomas j...@thethomasresidence.uswrote: All, Aside from being a well versed low level developer, I was also an OS Systems Programmer that also took on sub-systems and program products. That said, many a moon ago, a wise man once posted about the role of a MVS systems programmer (in the future that is) it was just a one line post... and it said . //setup exec pgm=setup Personally, I do not think we're too far away from just that. Java ?? Visual Age ? .. C++ ... personally, I think all the guru's out there have contributed to destroying the PC world so now they're on to something bigger and better. Let's destroy the mainframe world. Gee.. what would it be ... blue screen of death or for historic purposes, a green screen of death ?. Since when did point and click become a language ?. As humans, we tend to put computers into children's hands ... but hang on, do we also want to put knives or hack saws or anything else that's dangerous into their hands ?. Humm... I wonder why ?. But hang on ... let's look at the so called engineer's coming out of school today. If it were not for the fancy point and click applications how far would they get ?. Specifically, can someone show me a young college grad that knows what a log table is ?. Economy ?? okay .. how come it does not affect CEO's and CEO's that manage to lay off just about the entire company ?. Kind Regards, Jim Thomas 617-233-4130 (mobile) 636-294-1014 (res) j...@thethomasresidence.us -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel Tully Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) On 2/20/2010 5:49 PM, Pinnacle wrote: Dude, Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods of nearly everyone on this list. Discussing the nature of the employment market in z/OS and the future of that market is extremely important, and I will continue to post relevant information on that topic. Feel free to lay out your arguments, if you have any, but stuff your personal attacks. What I'm talking about is an ARTIFICIAL lowering of bill rates and salaries that has NOTHING to do with market forces. I'm all about capitalism and supply and demand, but that's not what's going on here. On one hand, IBM laments the lack of z/OS talent and worries that the lack of talent will mean the death of z/OS in the not-too-distant future (say 10-15 years). So
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
I never doubt IBM's ability to do something wrong and destructive, though I'm always mind-blown at how willing everyone else is to pay for it. I agree 1000%. And, it started with tier-based pricing in the 1980's. And, they've grown to the point where the technology is not difficult, but the management of pricing (MSU, 4HRA, etc) is. And, the ISV community is dancing (two left feet) to the same sorry tune. I knew when it came out, tier-based was going to make a capacity analyst's life heck! What I didn't realise was how much heck -- I under-estimated the impact. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
Scott, Forgive me but indeed, point and click is exactly where we are. Take either Visual Age or Eclipse as an example. Again, Forgive me but what exactly would be the definition of a good developer in today world ?? .. I maintain, the kids that are coming out of college w/JAVA and or C++ don't have a clue !!. Kind Regards, Jim Thomas 617-233-4130 (mobile) 636-294-1014 (res) j...@thethomasresidence.us -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Scott Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 3:43 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) Since when did point and click become a language? Is more an indication of your not getting it than the downward spiral of those damn kids and rock-an^h^h^h^h^h^h^h indie music. The momentum in computer science has always been to do more with less. Rather than asperger-ing it out with ye mighty command-line tools, computer science has taken a more humane approach. Create better (and better) SDKs and methodologies, elevating design and interface considerations to more than just an after thought. Those SDKs do a lot more with every release and a good developer has to have a lot of concepts tucked away in his pocket. A good developer (then and now) has to know a lot. I'm also not so sure that administering a platform is going to be dumbed down to //setup exec pgm=setup. I think IBM has strangled z/OS from a lot of different angles, and the belief is that the platform must go in that direction to maintain a few more years of profitability. Luckily IBM has gone to great lengths to defile the entire platform that I have no doubt it would blow up in their face. I never doubt IBM's ability to do something wrong and destructive, though I'm always mind-blown at how willing everyone else is to pay for it. System administration, now and in the foreseeable future, is hardly going to be a set it and forget it endeavor. It's going to involve administering many systems/platforms from a single source, using tools to simplify and automate. Companies that see the value in this will use it to empower competent admins, who can use their knowledge to accelerate development efforts and lockdown security. Know-nothing middle managers, everywhere else, will botch the rollout of anything good and use it to cut headcount because the IBM-Starbucks School of Management exists to rape all that is holy in this world. Scott On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Jim Thomas j...@thethomasresidence.uswrote: All, Aside from being a well versed low level developer, I was also an OS Systems Programmer that also took on sub-systems and program products. That said, many a moon ago, a wise man once posted about the role of a MVS systems programmer (in the future that is) it was just a one line post... and it said . //setup exec pgm=setup Personally, I do not think we're too far away from just that. Java ?? Visual Age ? .. C++ ... personally, I think all the guru's out there have contributed to destroying the PC world so now they're on to something bigger and better. Let's destroy the mainframe world. Gee.. what would it be ... blue screen of death or for historic purposes, a green screen of death ?. Since when did point and click become a language ?. As humans, we tend to put computers into children's hands ... but hang on, do we also want to put knives or hack saws or anything else that's dangerous into their hands ?. Humm... I wonder why ?. But hang on ... let's look at the so called engineer's coming out of school today. If it were not for the fancy point and click applications how far would they get ?. Specifically, can someone show me a young college grad that knows what a log table is ?. Economy ?? okay .. how come it does not affect CEO's and CEO's that manage to lay off just about the entire company ?. Kind Regards, Jim Thomas 617-233-4130 (mobile) 636-294-1014 (res) j...@thethomasresidence.us -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:ibm-m...@bama.ua.edu] On Behalf Of Gabriel Tully Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 12:34 PM To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) On 2/20/2010 5:49 PM, Pinnacle wrote: Dude, Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Jim Thomas [ snip ] But hang on ... let's look at the so called engineer's coming out of school today. If it were not for the fancy point and click applications how far would they get ?. Well, the engineers at Lockheed's (in)famous Skunk Works designed the SR-71 Blackbird with slide rules and graph paper. No airplane since has equaled its speed or altitude records. [ snip ] -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
jch...@ussco.com (Chase, John) writes: Well, the engineers at Lockheed's (in)famous Skunk Works designed the SR-71 Blackbird with slide rules and graph paper. No airplane since has equaled its speed or altitude records. i sponsored Boyd's briefings at ibm in the 80s ... he had done a lot of work improving both f15 and f18 designs ... and did much of f16, when he was head of light-weight fighter at the pentagon (using lots of supercomputer time). Boyd told story about the forces behind the f15 suspected he was doing f16 ... which he wasn't authorized. they figured if they could find records of his unauthorized supercomputer use (for doing f16 design) ... they could have him charged with theft of millions of dollars of gov. property (i.e. the unauthorized supercomputer use) and sent to levenworth for a very long time. fortunately they were never able to find any record of his supercomputer use. earlier he had done a year running spook base ... one of his biographies lists spook base as having been a $2.5B windfall for ibm (which would have made it significantly larger than boeing datacenter at renton in the same time frame ... the largest that i had been in) ... however, I've only been able to find online references to two 360/65s at spook base. a couple recent posts mentioning helping setup BCS in that timeframe http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#89 Notes on two presentations by Gordon Bell ca. 1998 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#90 Notes on two presentations by Gordon Bell ca. 1998 recent reference to dedication of Boyd Hall at air force weapons school (17sep1999) http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2010c.html#84 search engine history, was Happy DEC-10 Day other past posts mentioning Boyd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd1 misc. URLs from around the web mentioning Boyd http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subboyd.html#boyd2 -- 42yrs virtualization experience (since Jan68), online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
From: Mike Myers m...@mentor-services.com To: IBM-MAIN@bama.ua.edu Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 8:24:19 AM Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant) Joe: MVS was written in PL/S at the outset in 1972-1974. The use of PL/S was strategicas it was a structured language which would be more self-documenting than assembler and therefore easier to debug. To code any MVS component in assembler, you had to justify it and get a deviation to do so. I got such a deviation for both Quickcell and for Paging Services, which I wrote for the original release. The deviation was justified by the performance requireed of these components (their path lengths). Similarly, Art Kennard, who was a member of my team, got a deviation for Getmain/Freemain. There were other deviations for other components, I am sure, but the development plan, which I co-authored, specified PL/S as the programming standard. --SSNIP--. So if IBM was plotting to use PL/S (or PL/X) so they could replace its programmers with cheaper college kids, it took 35 years for the plot to come to fruition. BTW, I have not programmed in PL/x since leaving IBM and still program in assembler. If I had access to a PL/x compiler, I would use it in my consulting assignments, however. Mike Myers Mentor Services Corporation Mike: Reminds me of a performance issue I had with EREP. There was a (sorry this goes back 30 years) routine that EREP did, to create a table of all erep records (with I/o error counts). The job took 5 minutes of cpu time to essentially produce a 1 or 2 page report with totals by device. Since CPU was pinned most of the time I delved into the source (PLS). The program instead of indexing to the right counter did a entry by entry compare to add to the count. I redid it and indexed into the table (in assembler) and the cpu time went to less that 10 seconds. I tried to apar it as a performance apar and it basically got a go away kid you are bothering us response. I think it took IBM about 3 years to get around fixing it. This was not a assembler vs PLS issue per se but a lousy programmer (or entry level?) code screw up. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer (warning: Conley rant)
- Original Message - From: Gabriel Tully gjtu...@gmail.com Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:06 PM Subject: Re: Senior Java Developer vs. MVS Systems Programmer On 2/20/2010 11:41 AM, J R wrote: They wore lab coats? They were called MVS administrators? I was being facetious, but I get it - allow me to back-peddle. Sorry, I didn't mean to condescend. I'm just tired of reading about the consipriacy to lower the standard of living of systems programmers and the attitude of entitlement. There are a lot of smart MVSers who wish they could get a job for $65 an hour. rant Dude, Save your ad hominem attacks. I am nothing if not adaptable, and as far as an attitude of entitlement, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're unfamiliar with what's going on. Bring some facts if you have any and let's have a discussion. Or if you're tired of reading, then stop reading. Obviously you disagree with my premise, but calling me inadaptable and accusing me of an attitude of entitlement doesn't advance the discussion and is incorrect to boot. This is a serious issue affecting the lives and livelihoods of nearly everyone on this list. Discussing the nature of the employment market in z/OS and the future of that market is extremely important, and I will continue to post relevant information on that topic. Feel free to lay out your arguments, if you have any, but stuff your personal attacks. What I'm talking about is an ARTIFICIAL lowering of bill rates and salaries that has NOTHING to do with market forces. I'm all about capitalism and supply and demand, but that's not what's going on here. On one hand, IBM laments the lack of z/OS talent and worries that the lack of talent will mean the death of z/OS in the not-too-distant future (say 10-15 years). So they restart the academic initiative in order to train more z/OS talent. On the other hand, another arm of IBM has created its own Tower of Babel in Dubuque, IA, and declared by fiat that they'll only pay $40/hr for 20 years of MVS experience, less than 50% of the going rate just two years before. The back story on the Dubuque, IA deal is that IBM got millions of dollars of tax breaks in exchange for the promise of bringing thousands of jobs to Dubuque (see the posting a few weeks ago that referenced articles on that subject). Not bad, promising jobs at below-market wages in exchange for tax breaks, but IBM has not yet provided any employment numbers to the good folks of Dubuque or the state of Iowa. I suspect as do others that IBM has finally encountered resistance to the $40/hr price point. I am mail-bombed with 4-10 Emails a week for these positions, and it's clear from DICE and other jobs boards that IBM is blanketing the country looking for people to fill these positions. This is all actually happening, I'm not making anything up. I posted the Java developer position here because I have maintained that IBM's Academic Initiative is doomed to failure. Why would any college student go into z/OS when they can make much more doing Java or Web development? Others have scoffed at that idea, but I've been looking for a long-term z/OS contract since 5/2009, and they're significantly lower than the $700-$900/day offered in that Java developer posting. BTW, if that's what they're offering, you could probably negotiate even more. So I ask again, why would a college student choose z/OS as a career when more money can be made elsewhere? Let's deal with your other point that z/OS systems programming is becoming easier. Really? Unless you have lots of money to spend on OEM software, it's just as hard as it always was. CA's MSM? Only does the SMP/E, deployment and configuration yet to come. z/OSMF? It simplifies dump submission to IBM, if your mainframe is on the Internet, other functionality is a ways away. WLM is just as hard as IPS/ICS ever was, it just changed the knobs. JES2, VTAM, TCP/IP, OSA's, HMC, CICS, DB2, WAS, USS, performance and cap planning, storage management, Parallel Sysplex, Disaster Recovery, hardware planning and installation, etc. Which of these areas have gotten easier? I submit that z/OS systems programming isn't getting easier. Instead, it's more demanding than ever. For every ounce of labor savings in less experienced sysprogs, you need a pound of more experienced sysprogs to ensure that you realize even bigger savings. I've seen firsthand how low-cost z/OS labor ends up costing much more in missed deadlines and incorrect configurations. If you have evidence that z/OS systems programming is getting easier, please post. /rant Regards, Tom Conley -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@bama.ua.edu with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at
