Re: Tapeless backup
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 03/07/2008 at 02:11 PM, Leitner, Timothy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: We are exploring different options and the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. What are you backing up? Why? Which tapeless path? If you have to protect against, e.g., earthquake, fire, flood, backing up to another disk in the same facility won't help. If you need 10 years of weekly backups, disk will be far more expensive than tape. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. In a hostile environment, you get old by being nervous. OSF Healthcare System I'm quite certain that you have legal requirements for records retention. Your backup strategy should take those into account. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
As another difference, there are WORM tape cartridges available which are quite unlike disk storage. Some industries require WORM capabilities. Also, TS1120 drives can encrypt at the controller (in the drive), with keys managed by z/OS's ICSF. That functionality is becoming increasingly important, and it's quite effective to encrypt at the drive. I agree with the other commenter that nothing really beats tape for off-site long-term vaulting on-the-cheap. It depends what your RPO requirement is, but unless you invest in a long distance mirroring solution -- GDPS for example -- a single site catastrophe would also wipe out all your data. So you have to look at the whole picture, and in many situations you're comparing tape (times 1 with cartridge shipment) to long-distance mirroring (disk times 2 plus the interconnects). - - - - - Timothy Sipples IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: SPAM: Re: Tapeless backup
-snip--- We have a similar issue in our shop. The midrange area wants tapeless. the Mainframe side TAPE. We have a VTS and ATL. We use the product DRVI to stack the VTS Tape backups to an real tape and ship it offsite for DR purposes. Tape is cheap. tape can survive years in a dusty hole and still be usable. You can encrypt it. You can send it where it needs to go when it is needed. Or you can pay a DR site to have a tapeless solution there in case you need it. You just have to figure out how much you want to pay for a disaster. The only thought I have is: If you have a tapeless solution how do you get your data to DR site should your primary site fail? ---unsnip--- Consider also this: depending on what industry you're in, there may exist legal requirements for data archiving and retrieval. I spent my last 23 years in an industry where we had a ten-year retrieval requirement, imposed by Department of Commerce rules. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
Leitner, Timothy wrote: All, How many places have implemented tapeless backup environments? I don't mean virtual tape that has tape on the back-end but no tape at all. We are exploring different options and the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. Well, BTDT (Been There, Done That). Some time ago I decide to use DASD instead of tape for backups. The reason was ...budget constraint. Yes, disk backup was cheaper. I repeated it for open systems as well. However YMMV, Strongly. The major factor is amount of data. Another important factor is data retention requirements. How many copies, how long kept, etc. In fact we distinguish two things: backup, and archive. Things to consider: - Amount of data. The more data, the cheaper tape is. - Activity. The more archival copies, the better for tape. - SOFTWARE! Your backup software may or may not support DASD in every operation. AFAIK DFSMShsm does not support DASD for volume dumps. - DASD boxes. If you decide to use second hand equipment (IMHO it's ok for backup), then the price analyzis changes significantly. From the other hand I don't like second hand tape drives (BTDT) because of wear, MTBF, etc. - DR scenarios. Some datacenters still use PTAM method. Tapes offsite. Well - in this case you have to have tapes. For remote copy solutions (PPRC, H(A)RC, SRDF) it's easier to replicate backups and migrated data. In tape world you can buy remote copy solution for virtual tapes (both STK/Sun and IBM do offer such solutions). You can also have two ATLs without virtual tapes (much cheaper) and use software for data replication. - Offline media. DASD backups could be erased by accident (human error). It is oftenly mentioned. Of course tapes can be overwritten as well, but the tapes can be locked up (physically) - disks cannot. However in ATL there is no manual control what tapes is being mounted, so human error is as possible as in DASD. BTW: several years ago it was discussed whether to use MO (Magneto-Optical) media for backups. Although this is the most reliable media ever known, the technology is rather fading due to capacity, price, performance reasons. MO are small, slow and expensive. So, nowadays we discuss tape or disk. No other option apply. My $0.02 Regards -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2008 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA wynosi 118.642.672 zote i zosta w caoci wpacony. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
Leitner, Timothy wrote: All, How many places have implemented tapeless backup environments? I don't mean virtual tape that has tape on the back-end but no tape at all. We are exploring different options and the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. Thanks for any and all input. Tim Leitner OSF Healthcare System Manager, Technical Services == The information in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. Access to this message by anyone other than the addressee is not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, or an agent of the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original e-mail, attachment(s), and any copies. == You seem to be in the Healthcare industry. I agree with Rick F. What are your legal obligations for keeping backups and what are you auditing requirements. What are your DR requirements? It may be a bit expensive to put 5, 7, 10 years worth of backups on DASD. Depending on what you do on the Wintel platforms, they may not have any legal requirements to keep things longer than a few weeks or months. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Tapeless backup
All, How many places have implemented tapeless backup environments? I don't mean virtual tape that has tape on the back-end but no tape at all. We are exploring different options and the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. Thanks for any and all input. Tim Leitner OSF Healthcare System Manager, Technical Services == The information in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. Access to this message by anyone other than the addressee is not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, or an agent of the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, or distribution of the message or any action or omission taken by you in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender immediately and permanently delete the original e-mail, attachment(s), and any copies. == -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
On Fri, 2008-03-07 at 14:11 -0600, Leitner, Timothy wrote: the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. A friend once told me: You drive like an old lady! and I replied: How do you think they get to be old ladies? -- David Andrews A. Duda and Sons, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leitner, Timothy Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 2:12 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Tapeless backup All, How many places have implemented tapeless backup environments? I don't mean virtual tape that has tape on the back-end but no tape at all. We are exploring different options and the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. Thanks for any and all input. Tim Leitner What are they going to? direct offsite replication? dismountable disk? hope and pray? -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
On 7 Mar 2008 12:41:47 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (McKown, John) wrote: How many places have implemented tapeless backup environments? I don't mean virtual tape that has tape on the back-end but no tape at all. We are exploring different options and the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. Thanks for any and all input. Tim Leitner What are they going to? direct offsite replication? dismountable disk? hope and pray? I don't know Tim's actual plans, but one brand of terabyte HD retails for $400. If there's a 10TB datacenter, it could be backed up to HD for $12,000 (father, son, grandfather). Add a few for incrementals, and it's still likely cheaper than a single tape drive. -- I cannot receive mail at the address this was sent from. To reply directly, send to ar23hur at intergate dot com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
We have a similar issue in our shop. The midrange area wants tapeless. the Mainframe side TAPE. We have a VTS and ATL. We use the product DRVI to stack the VTS Tape backups to an real tape and ship it offsite for DR purposes. Tape is cheap. tape can survive years in a dusty hole and still be usable. You can encrypt it. You can send it where it needs to go when it is needed. Or you can pay a DR site to have a tapeless solution there in case you need it. You just have to figure out how much you want to pay for a disaster. The only thought I have is: If you have a tapeless solution how do you get your data to DR site should your primary site fail? Lizette All, How many places have implemented tapeless backup environments? I don't mean virtual tape that has tape on the back-end but no tape at all. We are exploring different options and the wintel side of the house is heading down the totally tapeless path. That makes me nervous but I'm getting old. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: Tapeless backup
I've implemented tapeless backup at several of our customer sites. The cost is obscenely cheap, but it's not for everyone. The advantage it provides is the ability to ship it easily once it's in the final format. It's reshapable so that it can be stored on a SAN easily, but can also be offloaded to real tape if the requirement arises. Strangely enough, it seems by my quick check that so far only universities have gone completely down this path (at least in our customer base), but there is no reason it couldn't be done anywhere, I think that cost and ease of setup and use are the major factors though. I know that tapes are cheap, but to a university, the network is cheaper. Brian -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
