Re: VSAM Surprise
On 12 Feb 2008 04:57:05 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main you wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/07/2008 at 09:10 AM, Veilleux, Jon L [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I remember having mods to open that prevented a user from opening a PDS sequentially. Now we use an OEM product for that purpose. It should not be allowed by default. I could never understand why IBM hasn't done anything about this for so many years. Because it would break a lot of existing code. Way back when, I submitted a requirement to SHARE that an installation be able to disable the overriding of DCB characteristics of existing datasets on OPEN OUTPUT by parmlib or sysgen (it may have been that long ago). I think I had the statement that this allowed the one percent of installation that wanted the ability to destroy their data sets to continue to do so. Clark Morris -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/07/2008 at 09:10 AM, Veilleux, Jon L [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I remember having mods to open that prevented a user from opening a PDS sequentially. Now we use an OEM product for that purpose. It should not be allowed by default. I could never understand why IBM hasn't done anything about this for so many years. Because it would break a lot of existing code. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS wrote: It's normal operation actually; The directory blocks are considered sequentially accessed blocks. As there was no member name on the DSN basically IDCAMS did exactly what was asked, and wrote the data to the PDS Directory area. I dare to disagree. Try the same normal operation with PDSE. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
IMHO, I would have coded it like this, at least I would have been certain of the outcome // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) Or // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE),DSORG=PS Without seeing the actual output from the job it is very hard to determine what kind of indication there would have been, will make it my project for 2morrow... Herbie Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
My problem with the whole thing is the RC of 0. If the IDCAMS is going to create an output that is unusable, but can be used by some creative coders, then why not at least kick out an RC of 4 with an INFORMATIONAL message. At least the RC 4 would make me check out the step or job before I pressed on. My opinion, for what it's worth. Wayne Schroeder Lead Systems Programmer Texas Farm Bureau Insurance Co. Waco, Texas -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 4:19 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS wrote: It's normal operation actually; The directory blocks are considered sequentially accessed blocks. As there was no member name on the DSN basically IDCAMS did exactly what was asked, and wrote the data to the PDS Directory area. I dare to disagree. Try the same normal operation with PDSE. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Just to disprove my previous point, I ran a job doing the opposite. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PO, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) This is the result... Data Set Name . . . : MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD General Data Current Allocation Management class . . : PDS1CLSAllocated cylinders : 7 Storage class . . . : TSO1CLSAllocated extents . : 1 Volume serial . . . : S9SD01 Maximum dir. blocks : 0 * Device type . . . . : 3390 Data class . . . . . : **None** Organization . . . : POCurrent Utilization Record format . . . : VB Used cylinders . . : 0 Record length . . . : 32756 Used extents . . . : 0 Block size . . . . : 32760 Used dir. blocks . : 0 * 1st extent cylinders: 7 Number of members . : 0 * Secondary cylinders : 1 Data set name type : PDS Creation date . . . : 07/02/2008 Referenced date . . : 07/02/2008 Expiration date . . : ***None*** * Information is unavailable. This time the DSORG is not ignored, and I end-up with a PDS with no Dir-Blocks... Herbie Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Rick Fochtman wrote: --snip-- It's normal operation actually; The directory blocks are considered sequentially accessed blocks. As there was no member name on the DSN basically IDCAMS did exactly what was asked, and wrote the data to the PDS Directory area. I dare to disagree. Try the same normal operation with PDSE. unsnip-- A PDS/E is not a perfectly matching replacement for a PDS. I would expect some differences in how the two are handled. PDS/E is PDS Extended. Better version of PDS. PDSE is created to solve some problems with PDS. One of the problems which are solved in PDSE is improved directory integrity. There is no mechanism to stop the PDS directory from being overwritten if a program mistakenly opens it for sequential output. If this happens, the directory is destroyed, and all the members are lost. The sentence above is from SG246106. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote: So you think it is normal not to give error messages it the space parm and the DSORG parm does not match up? Quite frankly I don't. [...] I think almost nothing in mainframe world is normal. g However my opinion is irrelevant here. What is important, such behavior is with us for years. In other words: is it normal - no, I don't think so. is it known - yes, absolutely. I consider it as part of very basic knowledge. I did the mistake (everybody did?), so I know it. My $0.02 Regards -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
PDSE's have a different directory format that allows for split directories the blocks of which are not always concurrent in the dataset. They are direct access. They also support functions not available on a PDS, such as Object Oriented modules, DLL Modules, etc... As such the direct access of the directories prevents writing unless through the correct service. Reading can still be done, but it only returns information in a format that emulates a PDS directory format. When I needed to alter a PDSE directory from a program I usually cheat, and have the program invoke directory services through REXX and ISPF functions. It can be done, but it just takes a different route. PDS directories have to be writable; otherwise you could not use TSO XMIT to pick up service packs packaged in PDS's for various products. This is one example of why a directory of a PDS is writable by design. There are plenty of other situations where this is used. Darren -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 2:19 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS wrote: It's normal operation actually; The directory blocks are considered sequentially accessed blocks. As there was no member name on the DSN basically IDCAMS did exactly what was asked, and wrote the data to the PDS Directory area. I dare to disagree. Try the same normal operation with PDSE. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On Tue, 5 Feb 2008 15:50:42 -0500, Arthur T. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think its APARable. Probably the same as specifying output to an existing PDS with a DSN with no member specified. Something not really discussed (yet) is that this is a NEW dataset with directory blocks specified. Surely there is no conceivable reason to want to write to this PDS as a sequential dataset... is there? All the reasons for writing to a PDS directory are for existing datasets. Would it be unreasonable for either OPEN or the application program (IDCAMS in this case) to check for this case? Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Tony Harminc wrote: Something not really discussed (yet) is that this is a NEW dataset with directory blocks specified. Surely there is no conceivable reason to want to write to this PDS as a sequential dataset... is there? There are a number of reasons; e.g., fast directory initialization (one EXCP per track), writing the directory prior to writing the members (backwards, but works if done correctly), etc. All the reasons for writing to a PDS directory are for existing datasets. Would it be unreasonable for either OPEN or the application program (IDCAMS in this case) to check for this case? What should it check? If I use BSAM or EXCP to write, then the DCB parameters aren't even relevant; what else could Open check? Ditto for IDCAMS - it's a utility that performs a requested function, and has no way of detection inapplicable usage. You might just as easily ask for the Initiator to request confirmation when it hits a disposition of DELETE for a data set, or any number of other deleterious conditions that could occur due to carelessness. Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, VT -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
-snip-- I remember having mods to open that prevented a user from opening a PDS sequentially. Now we use an OEM product for that purpose. It should not be allowed by default. I could never understand why IBM hasn't done anything about this for so many years. ---unsnip--- Probably because it can prove to be useful. Consider this: IEBCOPY would be much slower if it had to do STOW for every member that it added to its output dataset. Especially if merging two fairly large PDS's. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Van Dalsen, Herbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Ted, The only point I am making is that it is not necessarily IDCAMS that is at fault. I got the same results using IEFBR14 and the original JCL. Both //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PS, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) And //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) Gives me a PDS with 0(zero) Directory Blocks the same as //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=CICPTS31.CICS.DFHCMACD //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) What is strange though is that in the last case it says that 98% used, yet as originally stated, it is not accessible. REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) IDC0005I NUMBER OF RECORDS PROCESSED WAS 6569 IDC0001I FUNCTION COMPLETED, HIGHEST CONDITION CODE WAS 0 And Command - Enter / to select action Tracks %Used XT Device -- X00354.SE3.DFHCMACD 315 98 15 3390 Herbie (Full version, previous was sent prematurely) It is not strange, but fully explainable since several different processes work on 1 dataset: 1. IDCAMS writes sequentially to the dataset and has no problem writing to it. 2. The dataset's tracks are used for 98% 3. The dataset cannot be read as a PDS, which is quite understandable after step 1. The 2 processes that should never have interacted on the same dataset are 1. (write seq) and 3. (read PO) and that is the user's fault. It would have been nice if z/OS had avoided this, but unfortunately it doesnot as R.S. pointed out and most of us experienced once in their learning period. Kees. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Recall: VSAM Surprise
Vernooy, C.P. - SPLXM would like to recall the message, VSAM Surprise. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Van Dalsen, Herbie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Ted, The only point I am making is that it is not necessarily IDCAMS that is at fault. I got the same results using IEFBR14 and the original JCL. Both //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PS, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) And //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) Gives me a PDS with 0(zero) Directory Blocks the same as //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=CICPTS31.CICS.DFHCMACD //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) What is strange though is that in the last case it says that 98% used, yet as originally stated, it is not accessible. REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) IDC0005I NUMBER OF RECORDS PROCESSED WAS 6569 IDC0001I FUNCTION COMPLETED, HIGHEST CONDITION CODE WAS 0 And Command - Enter / to select action Tracks %Used XT Device -- X00354.SE3.DFHCMACD 315 98 15 3390 Herbie It is not strange, but fully explainable since several different processes work on 1 dataset: 1. IDCAMS writes sequentially to the dataset and has no problem writing to it. 2. The dataset's tracks are used for 98% 3. The dataset cannot be read as a PDS, which is quite understandable after step 1. The 2 processes that should never have interacted on the same dataset are 1. (write seq) and 3. (read PO) and that is the user's fault. It would have been nice if z/OS had avoided this, but unfortunately it does Kees. ** For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 ** -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
My €0.01 is this... I think it should work as per documentation, and if it is documented that it should be working that way it has in my tests, then I apologize for wasting everyone's time bandwidth, and hope I will still have time in my lifespan on z/OS(12 months) have the luck to open the manual where this is documented to be the way it was designed. Herbie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: 07 Februarie 2008 03:20 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote: So you think it is normal not to give error messages it the space parm and the DSORG parm does not match up? Quite frankly I don't. [...] I think almost nothing in mainframe world is normal. g However my opinion is irrelevant here. What is important, such behavior is with us for years. In other words: is it normal - no, I don't think so. is it known - yes, absolutely. I consider it as part of very basic knowledge. I did the mistake (everybody did?), so I know it. My $0.02 Regards -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: SPAM: Re: VSAM Surprise
-snip I'm curious -- does anyone remember how OPEN behaved if you opened an ISAM dataset with DSORG=PS? -unsnip-- Sometimes it failed; sometimes it OPENed with some rather spectacular results. It depended on how you coded the JCL. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
I remember having mods to open that prevented a user from opening a PDS sequentially. Now we use an OEM product for that purpose. It should not be allowed by default. I could never understand why IBM hasn't done anything about this for so many years. Jon L. Veilleux [EMAIL PROTECTED] (860) 636-2683 This e-mail may contain confidential or privileged information. If you think you have received this e-mail in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this e-mail immediately. Thank you. Aetna -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
hope I will still have time in my lifespan on z/OS(12 months) have the luck to open the manual where this is documented to be the way it was designed. Try the JCL reference Manual -- the section regarding DCB specifications on the DD statement. I believe that's where it was when I first learned JCL in 1981. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
So you think it is normal not to give error messages it the space parm and the DSORG parm does not match up? Quite frankly I don't. In my opinion the dataset should not be created be it // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PO, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) Or // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PS, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) Herbie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: 07 Februarie 2008 03:06 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote: Just to disprove my previous point, I ran a job doing the opposite. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PO, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) This is the result... [...] With all the respect, this is one of the features I show students when teaching JCL class. It's not advanced learning. g Are we inventing the wheel ? -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Hi all, OK, My Friday started a bit early... Just could not resist it... This is what I ran... //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PS, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) And his was the result... MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD POVB 32756 32760 Why CMACD, because my first test was to copy that file into a seq file and I got exactly the same result, No members in data set message in TSO 3.4. I do not think IDCAMS is to blame, Whatever, and I must admit I am too lazy to go and look, will leave it to Lizette, whatever is allocating the dataset is disregarding the DSORG=PS. What I expected was an error message saying that the directory blocks cannot be specified, the same way you get in option 3.2 in TSO. Regards Herbie -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: 07 Februarie 2008 02:35 nm To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise Rick Fochtman wrote: --snip-- It's normal operation actually; The directory blocks are considered sequentially accessed blocks. As there was no member name on the DSN basically IDCAMS did exactly what was asked, and wrote the data to the PDS Directory area. I dare to disagree. Try the same normal operation with PDSE. unsnip-- A PDS/E is not a perfectly matching replacement for a PDS. I would expect some differences in how the two are handled. PDS/E is PDS Extended. Better version of PDS. PDSE is created to solve some problems with PDS. One of the problems which are solved in PDSE is improved directory integrity. There is no mechanism to stop the PDS directory from being overwritten if a program mistakenly opens it for sequential output. If this happens, the directory is destroyed, and all the members are lost. The sentence above is from SG246106. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Van Dalsen, Herbie wrote: Just to disprove my previous point, I ran a job doing the opposite. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PO, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) This is the result... [...] With all the respect, this is one of the features I show students when teaching JCL class. It's not advanced learning. g Are we inventing the wheel ? -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
--snip-- It's normal operation actually; The directory blocks are considered sequentially accessed blocks. As there was no member name on the DSN basically IDCAMS did exactly what was asked, and wrote the data to the PDS Directory area. I dare to disagree. Try the same normal operation with PDSE. unsnip-- A PDS/E is not a perfectly matching replacement for a PDS. I would expect some differences in how the two are handled. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On Thu, 7 Feb 2008 13:22:11 -0500, Gerhard Postpischil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Would it be unreasonable for either OPEN or the application program (IDCAMS in this case) to check for this case? What should it check? ... There is obviously nothing OPEN could check for since it can't know your intent, and there can't be a general answer for applications. Ther CAN be an an answer for IDCAMS. If it is not performing a PDS-oriented function (like deleting or renaming members) it could do some simple validation. For example, as near as I can tell, REPRO supports no PDS-related functions. If you are going to REPRO to a PDS it can only be to a member allocated via JCL (or SVC99, etc.). Yes? Validation seems appropriate to me in that case. And if that change to IDCAMS were made, IBM could add a clobber directory option you could specify to make it work as now. I don't think this would be worth a formal request, but it doesn't seem like an unreasonable action. ... If I use BSAM or EXCP to write, then the DCB parameters aren't even relevant; what else could Open check? ... But your programs are not IDCAMS. They can do whatever you want them to. Ditto for IDCAMS - it's a utility that performs a requested function, and has no way of detection inapplicable usage. ... But it can detect use incompatable with the input and output dataset characteristics. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
This time the DSORG is not ignored, and I end-up with a PDS with no Dir-Blocks... But, IEFBR14 is a special case. You didn't open the file. Try it with a programme that actually writes to the file. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Ted, The only point I am making is that it is not necessarily IDCAMS that is at fault. I got the same results using IEFBR14 and the original JCL. Both //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB),DSORG=PS, // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) And //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IEFBR14 //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) Gives me a PDS with 0(zero) Directory Blocks the same as //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=CICPTS31.CICS.DFHCMACD //DD2 DD DSN=MY.SEQ.DFHCMACD,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) What is strange though is that in the last case it says that 98% used, yet as originally stated, it is not accessible. REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) IDC0005I NUMBER OF RECORDS PROCESSED WAS 6569 IDC0001I FUNCTION COMPLETED, HIGHEST CONDITION CODE WAS 0 And Command - Enter / to select action Tracks %Used XT Device -- X00354.SE3.DFHCMACD 315 98 15 3390 Herbie Elavon Financial Services Limited Registered in Ireland: Number 418442 Registered Office: Block E, 1st Floor, Cherrywood Business Park, Loughlinstown, Co. Dublin, Ireland Directors: Robert Abele (USA), John Collins, Terrance Dolan (USA), Pamela Joseph (USA), Declan Lynch, John McNally, Malcolm Towlson Elavon Financial Services Limited, trading as Elavon, is regulated by the Financial Regulator -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS wrote: PDSE's have a different directory format that allows for split directories the blocks of which are not always concurrent in the dataset. They are direct access. [...] PDS directories have to be writable; otherwise you could not use TSO XMIT to pick up service packs packaged in PDS's for various products. This is one example of why a directory of a PDS is writable by design. There are plenty of other situations where this is used. PDSE can be XMITed as well. However PDSE cannot be destroyed by accidental sequential write. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Didn't know that, learn something new every day. Always thought that was one of the reasons PDS was directory writable and PDSE's were not. Thanks Darren -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of R.S. Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:46 AM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise PDSE can be XMITed as well. However PDSE cannot be destroyed by accidental sequential write. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- BRE Bank SA ul. Senatorska 18 00-950 Warszawa www.brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237 NIP: 526-021-50-88 Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2007 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci opacony) wynosi 118.064.140 z. W zwizku z realizacj warunkowego podwyszenia kapitau zakadowego, na podstawie uchwa XVI WZ z dnia 21.05.2003 r., kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA moe ulec podwyszeniu do kwoty 118.760.528 z. Akcje w podwyszonym kapitale zakadowym bd w caoci opacone. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On Feb 7, 2008, at 8:35 AM, R.S. wrote: SNIP- unsnip-- A PDS/E is not a perfectly matching replacement for a PDS. I would expect some differences in how the two are handled. PDS/E is PDS Extended. Better version of PDS. PDSE is created to solve some problems with PDS. One of the problems which are solved in PDSE is improved directory integrity. There is no mechanism to stop the PDS directory from being overwritten if a program mistakenly opens it for sequential output. If this happens, the directory is destroyed, and all the members are lost. The sentence above is from SG246106. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland =SNIP--- Ok has anyone tried what happens in a pds vs pdse with idcams? Please share the results. Thanks! Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
The problem is you are giving it a space param with directory block counts on the output file (the third number in space card), SMS picks that up and allocates a PDS instead of a Sequential file. Change SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) to SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) It's not a IDCAMS issue Darren -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Rohr Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:11 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: VSAM Surprise Hi List - How about an AMS Repro that gets a zero completion code, an a good output record count, AND Creates an unusable output dataset. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=MY.VSAM.CLUSTER //DD2 DD DSN=MY.UNUSABLE,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) Notice that there are directory blocks - coded in error. Yep, an unusable PDS, with no warning or error messages. Enjoy, Ed Rohr Daimler Trucks, North America, LLC (503) 745-9027 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:38:52 -0800, GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is you are giving it a space param with directory block counts on the output file (the third number in space card), SMS picks that up and allocates a PDS instead of a Sequential file. Change SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) to SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) ... The original poster admitted all that. The question is whether or not IDCAMS should complain about being asked to write to a PDS (not a member of a PDS) as a PS dataset. ... It's not a IDCAMS issue ... I don't think that's a given. It's easy to see why this happens, and it's not too difficult to deal with it (as others have noted), but I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. It's not an IDCAMS issue. It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. The first place searched for file attributes is the executing programme. If it thinks the file is sequential, it is treated as such. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick O'Keefe Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 2:48 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:38:52 -0800, GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SNIP I don't think that's a given. It's easy to see why this happens, and it's not too difficult to deal with it (as others have noted), but I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. SNIP And when I want to dump 5 records from a file that I point to? Or suppose that I want to refresh the directory blocks to NULL by copying, say 10 records? While you may not appreciate it, some of us do very creative things with utilities (when someone doesn't break them like IEBGENER for VB files). Unless it is absolutely necessary (or we *WANT* to take z/OS IDCAMS back to the way IDCAMS ran for DOS/VS...), don't do me any favors by making me have to jump through hoops to do exactly what I told IDCAMS to do. Regards, Steve Thompson -- All opinions expressed by me are my own and may not necessarily reflect those of my employer. -- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:31:55 +, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. It's not an IDCAMS issue. It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. The first place searched for file attributes is the executing programme. If it thinks the file is sequential, it is treated as such. ... I agree that it is not an issue limited to IDCAMS, and I'm not sure why it bothers me more to see IDCAMS to this than, say, IEBGENER. But it does. Pehaps because IDCAMS pays more attention to its input and output datasets (at least when they are VSAM). JCL? I would have pointed more towards OPEN. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
JCL? I would have pointed more towards OPEN. The reason I said JCL is because the process is/was documented in the JCL manual. And, as a Production Support JCL jockey in my first job (1981), I learned more about JCL than OPEN. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
It's normal operation actually; The directory blocks are considered sequentially accessed blocks. As there was no member name on the DSN basically IDCAMS did exactly what was asked, and wrote the data to the PDS Directory area. I've done the same thing from COBOL at times when I've wanted to either read, or update the directory blocks programmatically Darren -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick O'Keefe Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2008 12:48 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 08:38:52 -0800, GAVIN Darren * OPS EAS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is you are giving it a space param with directory block counts on the output file (the third number in space card), SMS picks that up and allocates a PDS instead of a Sequential file. Change SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) to SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) ... The original poster admitted all that. The question is whether or not IDCAMS should complain about being asked to write to a PDS (not a member of a PDS) as a PS dataset. ... It's not a IDCAMS issue ... I don't think that's a given. It's easy to see why this happens, and it's not too difficult to deal with it (as others have noted), but I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. Pat O'Keefe -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: SPAM: Re: VSAM Surprise
snip- The problem is you are giving it a space param with directory block counts on the output file (the third number in space card), SMS picks that up and allocates a PDS instead of a Sequential file. Change SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) to SPACE=(CYL,(7,1),RLSE) ... The original poster admitted all that. The question is whether or not IDCAMS should complain about being asked to write to a PDS (not a member of a PDS) as a PS dataset. ... It's not a IDCAMS issue ... I don't think that's a given. It's easy to see why this happens, and it's not too difficult to deal with it (as others have noted), but I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. --unsnip- Why should IDCAMS be any smarter than IEBGENER ?? Both can have the same problem. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], on 02/06/2008 at 09:31 PM, Ted MacNEIL [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. No. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT ISO position; see http://patriot.net/~shmuel/resume/brief.html We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. No. How about some elaboration. A one word response that doesn't add to the discussion is meaningless. - Too busy driving to stop for gas! -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On Feb 6, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ted MacNEIL wrote: I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. It's not an IDCAMS issue. It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. The first place searched for file attributes is the executing programme. If it thinks the file is sequential, it is treated as such. Ted: I disagree with you. it is IMO an OPEN issue it should return a RC that indicates that open was successful but as a sequential dataset. Although it might break a lot of code its a close call IMO. I think it revolves around OPEN and a feedback code (which is not presented to the end user) so IDCAMS is not really at fault its OPEN that has the flaw, although I can see it from both sides. I can see where IBM would say BAD and walk away from it, or say its fixed in rel . Its a no when situation as IBM coded open the way they did and who knows how much code would need to be fixed? Now if someone had caught this back in the 60's maybe.. but not this late in the game. On the other hand they could make IDCAMS (if this is coded in the JCL create a member called tempname. This might also break programs, but probably less than the first. Ed -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Ed Gould wrote: On Feb 6, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ted MacNEIL wrote: I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. It's not an IDCAMS issue. It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. The first place searched for file attributes is the executing programme. If it thinks the file is sequential, it is treated as such. Ted: I disagree with you. it is IMO an OPEN issue it should return a RC that indicates that open was successful but as a sequential dataset. Although it might break a lot of code its a close call IMO. I think it revolves around OPEN and a feedback code (which is not presented to the end user) so IDCAMS is not really at fault its OPEN that has the flaw, although I can see it from both sides. I can see where IBM would say BAD and walk away from it, or say its fixed in rel . Its a no when situation as IBM coded open the way they did and who knows how much code would need to be fixed? Now if someone had caught this back in the 60's maybe.. but not this late in the game. On the other hand they could make IDCAMS (if this is coded in the JCL create a member called tempname. This might also break programs, but probably less than the first. Ed Fujitsu/Siemens fixed this in the '70s in MSP (an MVS look alike). It abended with some sort of x37 or x13 code. Of course, they had an SYSGEN option so you could turn it off. There is lots of stuff IBM could do to make it easier for users. For example, an easier to use JCL. It costs money, though, and if the main reason for a company to be in business is to make money for its shareholders, then users don't get much of a look in. See Why Money Doesn't Work Anymore at the end of the home page of my website: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~oscarptyltd/: Cheers, Clement ,-._|\ Clement V. Clarke - Author Jol, EASYJCL, EASYPANEL, 370TO486 / Oz \ Web: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~oscarptyltd \_,--.x/ 38 Kings Park Road, West Perth, AUSTRALIA, 6005. v Tel (61)-8-9324-1119, Mob 0401-054-155. Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
I disagree with you. it is IMO an OPEN issue it should return a RC that indicates that open was successful but as a sequential dataset. A return code after a successful OPEN is already too late. CLOSE will wipe out the directory. As Ted says, if you say you want to open the dataset as PS, that's what it does. Going back to the '60s design, they could have included some sort of open option that would indicate that you were intentionally overriding the DSORG, without which OPEN would fail. I'm curious -- does anyone remember how OPEN behaved if you opened an ISAM dataset with DSORG=PS? Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 23:53:15 -0600 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU On Feb 6, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ted MacNEIL wrote: I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. It's not an IDCAMS issue. It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. The first place searched for file attributes is the executing programme. If it thinks the file is sequential, it is treated as such. Ted: I disagree with you. it is IMO an OPEN issue it should return a RC that indicates that open was successful but as a sequential dataset. Although it might break a lot of code its a close call IMO. I think it revolves around OPEN and a feedback code (which is not presented to the end user) so IDCAMS is not really at fault its OPEN that has the flaw, although I can see it from both sides. I can see where IBM would say BAD and walk away from it, or say its fixed in rel . Its a no when situation as IBM coded open the way they did and who knows how much code would need to be fixed? Now if someone had caught this back in the 60's maybe.. but not this late in the game. On the other hand they could make IDCAMS (if this is coded in the JCL create a member called tempname. This might also break programs, but probably less than the first. Ed _ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Ted MacNEIL wrote: It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. No. How about some elaboration. 1) It's not documented (at least not in JCL or Data Management manuals) 2) It's not a flaw - it's a handy feature A one word response that doesn't add to the discussion is meaningless. Which part of No don't you understand? Gerhard Postpischil Bradford, VT -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On Feb 7, 2008, at 12:30 AM, J R wrote: I disagree with you. it is IMO an OPEN issue it should return a RC that indicates that open was successful but as a sequential dataset. A return code after a successful OPEN is already too late. CLOSE will wipe out the directory. Yes/NO it depends on *IF* the *DEFAULT* is to write over the directory if its *not* going to then a RC is OK if it is going to write over the directory then I agree with you. Again it could be a parmlib option at IPL time. Since no sysgens are really done anymore. It would be interesting to listen to a discussion of the IBM people and how they would look at it and we might get more of an insight as to how much code and what options there might be. Ed As Ted says, if you say you want to open the dataset as PS, that's what it does. Going back to the '60s design, they could have included some sort of open option that would indicate that you were intentionally overriding the DSORG, without which OPEN would fail. I'm curious -- does anyone remember how OPEN behaved if you opened an ISAM dataset with DSORG=PS? Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 23:53:15 -0600 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VSAM Surprise To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU On Feb 6, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ted MacNEIL wrote: I think it violates the principle of least astonishment. Writing to a PDS as a PS dataset is almost certainly done by accident. It would be nice it IDCAMS would just say You didn't want to do that.. It's not an IDCAMS issue. It's a documented (flaw) feature of JCL. The first place searched for file attributes is the executing programme. If it thinks the file is sequential, it is treated as such. Ted: I disagree with you. it is IMO an OPEN issue it should return a RC that indicates that open was successful but as a sequential dataset. Although it might break a lot of code its a close call IMO. I think it revolves around OPEN and a feedback code (which is not presented to the end user) so IDCAMS is not really at fault its OPEN that has the flaw, although I can see it from both sides. I can see where IBM would say BAD and walk away from it, or say its fixed in rel . Its a no when situation as IBM coded open the way they did and who knows how much code would need to be fixed? Now if someone had caught this back in the 60's maybe.. but not this late in the game. On the other hand they could make IDCAMS (if this is coded in the JCL create a member called tempname. This might also break programs, but probably less than the first. Ed _ Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
VSAM Surprise
Hi List - How about an AMS Repro that gets a zero completion code, an a good output record count, AND Creates an unusable output dataset. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=MY.VSAM.CLUSTER //DD2 DD DSN=MY.UNUSABLE,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) Notice that there are directory blocks - coded in error. Yep, an unusable PDS, with no warning or error messages. Enjoy, Ed Rohr Daimler Trucks, North America, LLC (503) 745-9027 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ed Rohr Hi List - How about an AMS Repro that gets a zero completion code, an a good output record count, AND Creates an unusable output dataset. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=MY.VSAM.CLUSTER //DD2 DD DSN=MY.UNUSABLE,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) Notice that there are directory blocks - coded in error. Yep, an unusable PDS, with no warning or error messages. Looks APAR-able to me. -jc- -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Rohr Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 2:11 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: VSAM Surprise Hi List - How about an AMS Repro that gets a zero completion code, an a good output record count, AND Creates an unusable output dataset. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=MY.VSAM.CLUSTER //DD2 DD DSN=MY.UNUSABLE,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) Notice that there are directory blocks - coded in error. Yep, an unusable PDS, with no warning or error messages. Enjoy, Ed Rohr BTDT with IEBGENER as well. IIRC, I could read the sequential output by putting a DCB=DSORG=PS on the DD statement. -- John McKown Senior Systems Programmer HealthMarkets Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage Administrative Services Group Information Technology The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged and/or confidential. It is for intended addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, distribution or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited and could, in certain circumstances, be a criminal offense. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this message without copying or disclosing it. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
Hi All, This looks like a BUG to me.Time to call IBM.. Regards, Scott -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Rohr Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 3:11 PM To: IBM-MAIN@BAMA.UA.EDU Subject: VSAM Surprise Hi List - How about an AMS Repro that gets a zero completion code, an a good output record count, AND Creates an unusable output dataset. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=MY.VSAM.CLUSTER //DD2 DD DSN=MY.UNUSABLE,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) Notice that there are directory blocks - coded in error. Yep, an unusable PDS, with no warning or error messages. Enjoy, Ed Rohr Daimler Trucks, North America, LLC (503) 745-9027 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: VSAM Surprise
On 5 Feb 2008 12:16:35 -0800, in bit.listserv.ibm-main (Message-ID:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chase, John) wrote: -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Ed Rohr Hi List - How about an AMS Repro that gets a zero completion code, an a good output record count, AND Creates an unusable output dataset. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=MY.VSAM.CLUSTER //DD2 DD DSN=MY.UNUSABLE,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) Notice that there are directory blocks - coded in error. Yep, an unusable PDS, with no warning or error messages. Looks APAR-able to me. I don't think its APARable. Probably the same as specifying output to an existing PDS with a DSN with no member specified. It can probably be read with DCB=DSORG=PS (as John mentioned) or by tweaking the VTOC's information for the dataset (e.g. via PDSxx or StarTools). -- I cannot receive mail at the address this was sent from. To reply directly, send to ar23hur at intergate dot com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
Re: SPAM: Re: VSAM Surprise
snip-- Hi List - How about an AMS Repro that gets a zero completion code, an a good output record count, AND Creates an unusable output dataset. //STEP1 EXEC PGM=IDCAMS,REGION=8M //SYSPRINT DD SYSOUT=* //DD1 DD DISP=SHR,DSN=MY.VSAM.CLUSTER //DD2 DD DSN=MY.UNUSABLE,UNIT=SYSDA,DISP=(,CATLG,DELETE), // DCB=(LRECL=32756,BLKSIZE=32760,RECFM=VB), // SPACE=(CYL,(7,1,43),RLSE) //SYSIN DD * REPRO IFILE(DD1) OFILE(DD2) Notice that there are directory blocks - coded in error. Yep, an unusable PDS, with no warning or error messages. --unsnip-- Probable User Error :-) You defined a PDS, then overwrote the directory. Put DCB=DSORG=PS on the DD statement to recover the contents. Put a member name on the DSNAME to avoid the problem in the future, or remove the direct space from the SPACE parameter. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message: GET IBM-MAIN INFO Search the archives at http://bama.ua.edu/archives/ibm-main.html
