Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Hank Oerlemans]

And how did that work out ?

I know a project where the guy sang a great tune to get the top job but 
his project management was rubbish.

End result: project way behind and he has been moved out to where his 
'talents' are better utilised.

-Hank

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Tom Marchant]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 15:25:33 -0800, Skip Robinson wrote:


>Is there some other occupation
>or avocation that mimics what we do?

Music?

About 30 years ago, when I worked at Amdahl, they were looking for entry level 
people.  High on the short list of qualifications that they were interested in 
was people with music degrees.

-- 
Tom  Marchant

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.)]

In
,
on 01/31/2014
   at 03:25 PM, Skip Robinson  said:

>The original corps  of IT folks came from the 'business side'. 
>They were accountants and process people who learned how to use 
>computers to accomplish traditional business goals.

Quite a few were from the scientific/engineering side[1].

>They were accountants and process people

Or, e.g., engineers. Some even came from non-business and
non-technical backgrounds.

[1[ There are more than two sides.
 
-- 
 Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
 ISO position; see  
We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress.
(S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003)

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Joel C. Ewing]

Agreed.  If it's really an Entry-Level position, any initial knowledge
of System Programming tasks is not nearly as important as an insatiable
curiosity about how software and hardware works and a demonstrated
general aptitude for understanding computer hardware and programming.

By the time I was in graduate school I was self-taught in assembly
language for seven different machine architectures and in Fortran and
several other programming languages.  I did some limited systems
programming work, but only on CDC-6000 series architecture as part of my
graduate research.  My experience with S/360 architecture was limited to
book learning, as an occasional user, and later in teaching programming
and algorithm courses for several years, including S/360 assembly
programming under the ASSIST environment.

I was offered and accepted a job as a Systems Programmer in a S/360
DOS/VS environment, and to become useful spent most of my first month
reading six shelf-feet of manuals and learning about the local
installation conventions and hardware from our Director and the one
other Systems Programmer.  Seven years later with the help of several
formal IBM courses and reading of many more manuals, I was also a VM
Systems Programmer, an MVS Systems Programmer, and was the main
technical support for our installation's conversion from DOS to MVS.  If
I had been selected only on my immediate ability to do the System
Programming tasks of the moment, I could have been a poor match for
their needs just a few years down the road.  I would suspect a logical
mind, interest in continuing education, and a general fascination for
computers are still the most critical skills for a good Systems
Programmer.
Joel C. Ewing

On 01/31/2014 10:46 AM, Stephen Bielskie wrote:
> I was fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to get into 
> mainframe systems programming diretly out of college in 1998.  At a local job 
> fair, I spoke to a recruiter that told me if I like to get into the "guts" of 
> the operating system and I am willing to learn mainframe then I have a 
> position for you. 
> 
> A few weeks later, I started in what my employer called ELSP training, or 
> Entry Level Systems Progamming training, as you may have guessed.  I spent 
> 6-8 weeks in different areas and different shifts learning the ins and outs 
> of the print room, tape library, mainframe and midrange ops, security, 
> storage, and production control.  The program itself spanned nearly 2 years 
> and was well thought out and the people I worked with were extremely 
> supportive and tolerant of my initial ignorance of the platform.  All of the 
> pieces fit together nicely in my mind by the time I completed the program.
> 
> I've been a systems programmer for over 15 years now and my opinion of what 
> is required for an entry level systems programmer is likely less stringent 
> than many on this list would indicate.  My candidate would (in no particular 
> order):
> 
> 1) Possess a willingness to learn something new, knowing you're not going to 
> be very good at it in the beginning until you learn the basics
> 2) Enjoy/able to solve logic puzzles (my first employer gave a screening test 
> that had you following pointers through a mad up virtual memory map - had 4 
> hours to complete it)
> 3) Demonstrate self-motivation
> 4) Willing to ask questions for thier own benefit and knowledge
> 5) Willing to particpate in trouble calls, off hour calls, and weekend work
> 6) Has basic understanding of how a computer works and knowledge of concepts 
> such as virtual storage, virtual machines, interrupts, etc
> 7) Enjoy learning new technology
> 8) Realize the importance of data integrity, system availability, and always 
> having a backout
> 9) Understand that they don't know everything and could be dangerous - so put 
> your pride aside and know enough to ask for help or guidance
> 10) Not know what a TCB or SRB is, but can make a basic connection to 
> something like a Linux thread and dispatcher(don't beat me up on this, I know 
> it's not the same, but similar enough to have a foundation for understanding)
> 11) Have desire to learn the "guts" of the operating system and third party 
> software 
> 12) Have natural curiosity to finding out how things work and interact with 
> each other
> 13) Have an appreciation of the big picture - changing this piece can affect 
> other pieces since it is shared
> 
> In my mind, entry level is just that - no previous experience is required, 
> which is exactly how my career started.  I don't beleive that the candidate 
> needs to have any z/OS experience at all - that can all be learned from the 
> knowledgable people the candidate would be working with.  The candidate will 
> only be as successful as those helping him/her learn.  I was very fortunate 
> to have Dan, Keith, Tony, and Kent share their knowledge with me and be 
> patient enough to explain why things worked the way they did and how it all 
> fi

Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[David L. Craig]

On 14Jan31:1525-0800, Skip Robinson wrote:

> Is there some other occupation or avocation that mimics what we do? 

Medical doctors.
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Skip Robinson]

I like this answer best of all. If you're hiring a mid- or senior-level 
person, then you have to focus on experience. But for entry-level, it's 
all about potential. 

A corollary to #8 is that the value of business data goes far beyond 
retaining one's personal best score in Burning Babies. The original corps 
of IT folks came from the 'business side'. They were accountants and 
process people who learned how to use computers to accomplish traditional 
business goals. I'm wary of degreed PFCSKs who are enamored with glitz and 
glamor but may be bored by issues of data integrity. 

Maybe a number N+1 quality is the acceptance/willingness--even enthusiasm 
(!)--for getting dragged into problem debugging and crisis resolution at 
the most inconvenient of times and places. I know talented and 
accomplished IT folks  who have little sufferance for the exigencies of 
system programming. It's too stressful and too intrusive into one's 
personal life. 

Having said all this, I wonder how we can search out these qualities. 
There's a temptation to choose someone who's done this job before, but 
then you're not looking for 'entry level'. I had a teacher once who 
insisted that astronauts should be gleaned from the cadre of submarine 
personnel because so many of the same qualities applied to both groups. 
(Don't think that played out historically.) Is there some other occupation 
or avocation that mimics what we do? 

.
.
J.O.Skip Robinson
Southern California Edison Company
Electric Dragon Team Paddler 
SHARE MVS Program Co-Manager
626-302-7535 Office
323-715-0595 Mobile
jo.skip.robin...@sce.com



From:   Stephen Bielskie 
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU, 
Date:   01/31/2014 08:47 AM
Subject:Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description
Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List 



I was fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to get 
into mainframe systems programming diretly out of college in 1998.  At a 
local job fair, I spoke to a recruiter that told me if I like to get into 
the "guts" of the operating system and I am willing to learn mainframe 
then I have a position for you. 

A few weeks later, I started in what my employer called ELSP training, or 
Entry Level Systems Progamming training, as you may have guessed.  I spent 
6-8 weeks in different areas and different shifts learning the ins and 
outs of the print room, tape library, mainframe and midrange ops, 
security, storage, and production control.  The program itself spanned 
nearly 2 years and was well thought out and the people I worked with were 
extremely supportive and tolerant of my initial ignorance of the platform. 
 All of the pieces fit together nicely in my mind by the time I completed 
the program.

I've been a systems programmer for over 15 years now and my opinion of 
what is required for an entry level systems programmer is likely less 
stringent than many on this list would indicate.  My candidate would (in 
no particular order):

1) Possess a willingness to learn something new, knowing you're not going 
to be very good at it in the beginning until you learn the basics
2) Enjoy/able to solve logic puzzles (my first employer gave a screening 
test that had you following pointers through a mad up virtual memory map - 
had 4 hours to complete it)
3) Demonstrate self-motivation
4) Willing to ask questions for thier own benefit and knowledge
5) Willing to particpate in trouble calls, off hour calls, and weekend 
work
6) Has basic understanding of how a computer works and knowledge of 
concepts such as virtual storage, virtual machines, interrupts, etc
7) Enjoy learning new technology
8) Realize the importance of data integrity, system availability, and 
always having a backout
9) Understand that they don't know everything and could be dangerous - so 
put your pride aside and know enough to ask for help or guidance
10) Not know what a TCB or SRB is, but can make a basic connection to 
something like a Linux thread and dispatcher(don't beat me up on this, I 
know it's not the same, but similar enough to have a foundation for 
understanding)
11) Have desire to learn the "guts" of the operating system and third 
party software 
12) Have natural curiosity to finding out how things work and interact 
with each other
13) Have an appreciation of the big picture - changing this piece can 
affect other pieces since it is shared

In my mind, entry level is just that - no previous experience is required, 
which is exactly how my career started.  I don't beleive that the 
candidate needs to have any z/OS experience at all - that can all be 
learned from the knowledgable people the candidate would be working with. 
The candidate will only be as successful as those helping him/her learn. I 
was very fortunate to have Dan, Keith, Tony, and Kent share their 
knowledge with me and be patient enou

Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Stephen Bielskie]

I was fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to get into 
mainframe systems programming diretly out of college in 1998.  At a local job 
fair, I spoke to a recruiter that told me if I like to get into the "guts" of 
the operating system and I am willing to learn mainframe then I have a position 
for you. 

A few weeks later, I started in what my employer called ELSP training, or Entry 
Level Systems Progamming training, as you may have guessed.  I spent 6-8 weeks 
in different areas and different shifts learning the ins and outs of the print 
room, tape library, mainframe and midrange ops, security, storage, and 
production control.  The program itself spanned nearly 2 years and was well 
thought out and the people I worked with were extremely supportive and tolerant 
of my initial ignorance of the platform.  All of the pieces fit together nicely 
in my mind by the time I completed the program.

I've been a systems programmer for over 15 years now and my opinion of what is 
required for an entry level systems programmer is likely less stringent than 
many on this list would indicate.  My candidate would (in no particular order):

1) Possess a willingness to learn something new, knowing you're not going to be 
very good at it in the beginning until you learn the basics
2) Enjoy/able to solve logic puzzles (my first employer gave a screening test 
that had you following pointers through a mad up virtual memory map - had 4 
hours to complete it)
3) Demonstrate self-motivation
4) Willing to ask questions for thier own benefit and knowledge
5) Willing to particpate in trouble calls, off hour calls, and weekend work
6) Has basic understanding of how a computer works and knowledge of concepts 
such as virtual storage, virtual machines, interrupts, etc
7) Enjoy learning new technology
8) Realize the importance of data integrity, system availability, and always 
having a backout
9) Understand that they don't know everything and could be dangerous - so put 
your pride aside and know enough to ask for help or guidance
10) Not know what a TCB or SRB is, but can make a basic connection to something 
like a Linux thread and dispatcher(don't beat me up on this, I know it's not 
the same, but similar enough to have a foundation for understanding)
11) Have desire to learn the "guts" of the operating system and third party 
software 
12) Have natural curiosity to finding out how things work and interact with 
each other
13) Have an appreciation of the big picture - changing this piece can affect 
other pieces since it is shared

In my mind, entry level is just that - no previous experience is required, 
which is exactly how my career started.  I don't beleive that the candidate 
needs to have any z/OS experience at all - that can all be learned from the 
knowledgable people the candidate would be working with.  The candidate will 
only be as successful as those helping him/her learn.  I was very fortunate to 
have Dan, Keith, Tony, and Kent share their knowledge with me and be patient 
enough to explain why things worked the way they did and how it all fit 
together.  I realize most of us are very busy, but I can tell you first hand of 
how much knowledge can be gained just by looking over someone's shoulder then 
exploring the subject by ones' self.

I currently have a new joiner on my team that came from batch management and he 
is really self motivated and learning enough to make him a great systems 
programmer in the near future.  He asks the right questions, digs into things 
on his own, and is making the connections of how things work in the z/OS 
environment and on z/Series hardware at a steady pace.

Regards,
Steve

Stephen Bielskie
VP Mainframe OS and Hardware
Credit Suisse Securities, USA
Princeton, NJ

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Greg Shirey]

Man, where were all you guys when we discussed this on the list 10 years ago??? 

https://listserv.ua.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0204&L=IBM-MAIN-ARCHIVES&D=0&X=4CABE247287B4A16E0-No+Match%3BMatch%3BMatches&P=1377536


Regards,
Greg 


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Rouse, Willie
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 12:55 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

I got my first systems programming job on a Work Study Grant in college.

Respectfully,
Willie C. Rouse
Senior Mainframe Consultant



-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Alan Field
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

I didn't go to college. Straight into System Programming from High School. 
Spent my first week on the job in the punch pool learning how to work an 029. 

Alan Field
Technical Engineer Principal




I think it is well established that you are unique.  You are the only person 
who has ever gone directly from college into systems programming. 
How cool!! 

Greg Shirey
Ben E. Keith Company


Hum, I would have failed to get my first job. I came out of college directly 
into systems. 

 

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Rouse, Willie]

I got my first systems programming job on a Work Study Grant in college.

Respectfully,
Willie C. Rouse
Senior Mainframe Consultant
Prince George's County, Maryland
Office of Information Technology
9201 Basil Court/ Room B8
Largo, MD 20774
Voice: 301-883-7189
Fax: 301-883-3790




-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Alan Field
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:52 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

I didn't go to college. Straight into System Programming from High School. 
Spent my first week on the job in the punch pool learning how to work an 029. 

Alan Field
Technical Engineer Principal
BCBS Minnesota

Phone: 651.662.3546  Mobile:  651.428.8826








I think it is well established that you are unique.  You are the only person 
who has ever gone directly from college into systems programming. 
How cool!! 

Greg Shirey
Ben E. Keith Company


Hum, I would have failed to get my first job. I came out of college directly 
into systems. 

 

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Grinsell, Don]

And the winner is...


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Tony Babonas
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 11:41 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

Additional requirements:

1. Define USS in all contexts.
2. Explain the merits and deficiencies of system symbols.
3. Write authorized programs that perform unauthorized functions, and more 
importantly vice versa.
4. Create a new linklist, modify it, delete it, create a new one, repeat
5 times.
5. Have a spare copy of Cannatello's book for sale, cheap.
6. Explain the merits and deficiencies of tab characters.
7. Explain the merits and deficiencies of all code pages in the universe.
8. Determine which of John Gilmore's typos are actually typos.
9. Actually like IBM's new reference manuals format.
10. Happily get by on 1 TSO session.
11. Actually use multiple TSO sessions.



On 1/30/2014 11:55 AM, Roberts, John J wrote:
> John P Kalinich wrote:
> 1. Graduated from SHARE Assembler Boot Camp.
> 2. Read and understood the contents of "Advanced Assembler Language and MVS 
> Interfaces for IBM Systems and Application Programmers" by Carmine A.
> Cannatello.
> 3. Fluent in z/OS operator commands.
> 4. Can IPL a z/OS system.
>
> IMO, you don't "hire" Entry Level System Programmers.  You hire Entry Level 
> System Programmer Trainees.
>
> Anyone who was practicing as an Entry Level System Programmer for any 
> significant length of time is now an "Intermediate Level System Programmer".  
> If they left the position after just a few months they are a "System 
> Programmer Dropout".
>
> To be a System Programmer Trainee, you need to have been:
> (a) A successful Application Developer on the platform, or
> (b) A highly experienced platform Operator.
>
> While I consider myself a skilled ASM developer and I would highly recommend 
> this skill for any System Programmer, I know that for many years IMS System 
> Programming tasks have been done by people lacking this skill.  Obviously, 
> JCL, Utility Program, REXX, and SMP/E skills come before ASM.  Familiarity 
> with the diagnostic tools is important as well.  But I know that there are 
> many practicing SysProgs that don't know how to read a SYSUDUMP and become 
> dependent on ABENDAID as a crutch.
>
> For setting requirements, you also need to consider the environment.  A big 
> installation with a whole team of Sysprogs can afford the time to mentor a 
> new guy.  But a small shop with only one or two senior people might not be 
> able to afford the time to raise the newbie.
>
> John
>
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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Alan Field]

I didn't go to college. Straight into System Programming from High School. 
Spent my first week on the job in the punch pool learning how to work an 
029. 

Alan Field
Technical Engineer Principal
BCBS Minnesota

Phone: 651.662.3546  Mobile:  651.428.8826








I think it is well established that you are unique.  You are the only 
person who has ever gone directly from college into systems programming. 
How cool!! 

Greg Shirey
Ben E. Keith Company


Hum, I would have failed to get my first job. I came out of college 
directly into systems. 

 

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Richard Pinion]

"8. Determine which of John Gilmore's typos are actually typos."  LOLROTF!!!

Richard and Vickie Pinion

--- tonybabo...@icloud.com wrote:

From: Tony Babonas 
To:   IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2014 12:40:57 -0600

Additional requirements:

1. Define USS in all contexts.
2. Explain the merits and deficiencies of system symbols.
3. Write authorized programs that perform unauthorized functions, and 
more importantly vice versa.
4. Create a new linklist, modify it, delete it, create a new one, repeat 
5 times.
5. Have a spare copy of Cannatello's book for sale, cheap.
6. Explain the merits and deficiencies of tab characters.
7. Explain the merits and deficiencies of all code pages in the universe.
8. Determine which of John Gilmore's typos are actually typos.
9. Actually like IBM's new reference manuals format.
10. Happily get by on 1 TSO session.
11. Actually use multiple TSO sessions.



On 1/30/2014 11:55 AM, Roberts, John J wrote:
> John P Kalinich wrote:
> 1. Graduated from SHARE Assembler Boot Camp.
> 2. Read and understood the contents of "Advanced Assembler Language and MVS 
> Interfaces for IBM Systems and Application Programmers" by Carmine A.
> Cannatello.
> 3. Fluent in z/OS operator commands.
> 4. Can IPL a z/OS system.
>
> IMO, you don't "hire" Entry Level System Programmers.  You hire Entry Level 
> System Programmer Trainees.
>
> Anyone who was practicing as an Entry Level System Programmer for any 
> significant length of time is now an "Intermediate Level System Programmer".  
> If they left the position after just a few months they are a "System 
> Programmer Dropout".
>
> To be a System Programmer Trainee, you need to have been:
> (a) A successful Application Developer on the platform, or
> (b) A highly experienced platform Operator.
>
> While I consider myself a skilled ASM developer and I would highly recommend 
> this skill for any System Programmer, I know that for many years IMS System 
> Programming tasks have been done by people lacking this skill.  Obviously, 
> JCL, Utility Program, REXX, and SMP/E skills come before ASM.  Familiarity 
> with the diagnostic tools is important as well.  But I know that there are 
> many practicing SysProgs that don't know how to read a SYSUDUMP and become 
> dependent on ABENDAID as a crutch.
>
> For setting requirements, you also need to consider the environment.  A big 
> installation with a whole team of Sysprogs can afford the time to mentor a 
> new guy.  But a small shop with only one or two senior people might not be 
> able to afford the time to raise the newbie.
>
> John
>
> --
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_
Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Tony Babonas]

Additional requirements:

1. Define USS in all contexts.
2. Explain the merits and deficiencies of system symbols.
3. Write authorized programs that perform unauthorized functions, and 
more importantly vice versa.
4. Create a new linklist, modify it, delete it, create a new one, repeat 
5 times.

5. Have a spare copy of Cannatello's book for sale, cheap.
6. Explain the merits and deficiencies of tab characters.
7. Explain the merits and deficiencies of all code pages in the universe.
8. Determine which of John Gilmore's typos are actually typos.
9. Actually like IBM's new reference manuals format.
10. Happily get by on 1 TSO session.
11. Actually use multiple TSO sessions.



On 1/30/2014 11:55 AM, Roberts, John J wrote:

John P Kalinich wrote:
1. Graduated from SHARE Assembler Boot Camp.
2. Read and understood the contents of "Advanced Assembler Language and MVS 
Interfaces for IBM Systems and Application Programmers" by Carmine A.
Cannatello.
3. Fluent in z/OS operator commands.
4. Can IPL a z/OS system.

IMO, you don't "hire" Entry Level System Programmers.  You hire Entry Level 
System Programmer Trainees.

Anyone who was practicing as an Entry Level System Programmer for any significant length of time is 
now an "Intermediate Level System Programmer".  If they left the position after just a 
few months they are a "System Programmer Dropout".

To be a System Programmer Trainee, you need to have been:
(a) A successful Application Developer on the platform, or
(b) A highly experienced platform Operator.

While I consider myself a skilled ASM developer and I would highly recommend 
this skill for any System Programmer, I know that for many years IMS System 
Programming tasks have been done by people lacking this skill.  Obviously, JCL, 
Utility Program, REXX, and SMP/E skills come before ASM.  Familiarity with the 
diagnostic tools is important as well.  But I know that there are many 
practicing SysProgs that don't know how to read a SYSUDUMP and become dependent 
on ABENDAID as a crutch.

For setting requirements, you also need to consider the environment.  A big 
installation with a whole team of Sysprogs can afford the time to mentor a new 
guy.  But a small shop with only one or two senior people might not be able to 
afford the time to raise the newbie.

John

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[David L. Craig]

The least knowledgable sysprog should know ops better than
the best operator, IMHO, even if he's not in the call
rotation yet.
-- 

May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly!

Dave_Craig__
"So the universe is not quite as you thought it was.
 You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then.
 Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe."
__--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Nims,Alva John (Al)]

Hey, I would not say that, I went directly from college into Systems 
Programming, I actually did it before I left, I worked for a while for the 
University.
Now mind you, this has been MANY MANY MANY Years Ago! (in a Galaxy Far Far 
away!)

Now it has come almost full circle, I am back working for a University, a 
different one, but a University no less. 

Alva (Al) John Nims
(352) 273-1298

-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of Greg Shirey
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:00 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

I think it is well established that you are unique.  You are the only person 
who has ever gone directly from college into systems programming.  How cool!! 

Greg Shirey
Ben E. Keith Company


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John McKown
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 10:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

Hum, I would have failed to get my first job. I came out of college directly 
into systems. 

 

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Greg Shirey]

I think it is well established that you are unique.  You are the only person 
who has ever gone directly from college into systems programming.  How cool!! 

Greg Shirey
Ben E. Keith Company


-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf 
Of John McKown
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 10:48 AM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

Hum, I would have failed to get my first job. I came out of college directly 
into systems. 

 

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Roberts, John J]

John P Kalinich wrote:
1. Graduated from SHARE Assembler Boot Camp.
2. Read and understood the contents of "Advanced Assembler Language and MVS 
Interfaces for IBM Systems and Application Programmers" by Carmine A.
Cannatello.
3. Fluent in z/OS operator commands.
4. Can IPL a z/OS system.

IMO, you don't "hire" Entry Level System Programmers.  You hire Entry Level 
System Programmer Trainees.

Anyone who was practicing as an Entry Level System Programmer for any 
significant length of time is now an "Intermediate Level System Programmer".  
If they left the position after just a few months they are a "System Programmer 
Dropout".

To be a System Programmer Trainee, you need to have been:
(a) A successful Application Developer on the platform, or
(b) A highly experienced platform Operator.

While I consider myself a skilled ASM developer and I would highly recommend 
this skill for any System Programmer, I know that for many years IMS System 
Programming tasks have been done by people lacking this skill.  Obviously, JCL, 
Utility Program, REXX, and SMP/E skills come before ASM.  Familiarity with the 
diagnostic tools is important as well.  But I know that there are many 
practicing SysProgs that don't know how to read a SYSUDUMP and become dependent 
on ABENDAID as a crutch.

For setting requirements, you also need to consider the environment.  A big 
installation with a whole team of Sysprogs can afford the time to mentor a new 
guy.  But a small shop with only one or two senior people might not be able to 
afford the time to raise the newbie.

John

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[John P Kalinich]

1. Graduated from SHARE Assembler Boot Camp.
2. Read and understood the contents of "Advanced Assembler Language and MVS
Interfaces for IBM Systems and Application Programmers" by Carmine A.
Cannatello.
3. Fluent in z/OS operator commands.
4. Can IPL a z/OS system.

Regards,
John K
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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[John McKown]

Hum, I would have failed to get my first job. I came out of college
directly into systems. I as applying for a programming job. I had
apparently talked myself out of a number of them. At the place that hired
me, I could see the programming managers eyes glazing over, again. He told
me to wait a bit. The system programming manager then came in to talk to
me. I got the job because I knew s/370 assembler and OS JCL ( this was back
in the OS/VS1 days). Turns out the programming manager went to the systems
manager and said (paraphrasing) "You might want to talk to my applicant. I
don't understand a damn word he's saying!"


Of course, my first two weeks at that job was in the computer room,
mounting tapes on 3420 drives and tearing paper off of the 1403N1 printer.
Just so I'd know what problems I could cause if I messed up my JCL and
didn't retain tape volumes or produced too many different reports that had
to be separated.


On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 10:40 AM, Ken Hume IBM  wrote:

> Requirement #1. Applicant must have z/OS operations experience.
>
>
>
>
> Text of the 4th Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution.
>
> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
> effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
> and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
> affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> persons or things to be seized.
> -Original Message- From: Ward, Mike S
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 9:28 AM Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
> Subject: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description
>
>
> Hello all, Would any of you have an entry level systems programmer(or
> whatever they call them now) job description that you would be willing to
> share?
>
> I'm trying not to reinvent the wheel.
>
> Thanks
>
> ==
> This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is
> addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify the
> system manager. This message contains confidential information and is
> intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee,
> you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify
> the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by
> mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the
> intended recipient, you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing
> or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is
> strictly prohibited.
>
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>



-- 
Wasn't there something about a PASCAL programmer knowing the value of
everything and the Wirth of nothing?

Maranatha! <><
John McKown

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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Ed Finnell]

PhD in Computer Science, 3 yrs related experience, under 25 yrs of  age!
 
 
In a message dated 1/30/2014 10:29:23 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
mw...@ssfcu.org writes:

description that you would be willing to  share?



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Re: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Ken Hume IBM]

Requirement #1. Applicant must have z/OS operations experience.




Text of the 4th Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and 
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, 
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or 
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the 
persons or things to be seized.
-Original Message- 
From: Ward, Mike S

Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2014 9:28 AM Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

Hello all, Would any of you have an entry level systems programmer(or 
whatever they call them now) job description that you would be willing to 
share?


I'm trying not to reinvent the wheel.

Thanks

==
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If 
you have received this email in error, please notify the system manager. 
This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the 
individual named. If you are not the named addressee, you should not 
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender 
immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by mistake and 
delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient, 
you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action 
in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.


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OT: Entry Level System Programmer Job Description

[Ward, Mike S]

Hello all, Would any of you have an entry level systems programmer(or whatever 
they call them now) job description that you would be willing to share?

I'm trying not to reinvent the wheel.

Thanks

==
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended 
solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you 
have received this email in error, please notify the system manager. This 
message contains confidential information and is intended only for the 
individual named. If you are not the named addressee, you should not 
disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender 
immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by mistake and delete 
this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient, you are 
notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in 
reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

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