SV: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Is that not a tautology ? :) (Could You be in a *business* without the goal to make profits ?) Regards, Thomas Berg ___ Thomas Berg Specialist AM/SMS SWEDBANK AB (publ) -Ursprungligt meddelande- Från: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] För Bill Fairchild Skickat: den 3 oktober 2012 18:53 Till: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Ämne: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out IBM is not in business to make mainframes or to keep legacy mainframers employed. IBM is in business to make profits for IBM stockholders to divide up each year. Bill Fairchild Programmer Rocket Software 408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA t: +1.617.614.4503 * e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: www.rocketsoftware.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Roberts, John J Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 11:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out I know that there will be people on this list that will insist that the mainframe platform is absolutely viable for the foreseeable future. But what they are really saying is that they will support it as long as it is profitable, and drop it the very day that it isn't. My old employer (Amdahl/Fujitsu) did exactly that, going from Flagship to Nothing in just two years. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: SV: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Thomas Berg wrote: Is that not a tautology ? :) (Could You be in a *business* without the goal to make profits ?) Yes, as long you have one or other tax evavise scheme [1] in place to make serious PROFITS! ;-) Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht [1] - In the good old days, the shop owners (sole owner) of very small shops (cafes, fish+chips, general store) kept two sets of books, one for themselves and one for tax audits... If those sole owners get fishy questions, they just pull up their nets and move on to the next town to catch more profits... ;-D -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Of course it is a tautology. But many/most of us seem to forget the tautology after we have worked at the same place for X number of years. We begin to think that our employer owes us a living, or maybe our nation's taxpayers owe us a living. Bill Fairchild Programmer Rocket Software 408 Chamberlain Park Lane . Franklin, TN 37069-2526 . USA t: +1.617.614.4503 . e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com . w: www.rocketsoftware.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Thomas Berg Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 8:06 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: SV: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out Is that not a tautology ? :) (Could You be in a *business* without the goal to make profits ?) Regards, Thomas Berg ___ Thomas Berg Specialist AM/SMS SWEDBANK AB (publ) -Ursprungligt meddelande- Från: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] För Bill Fairchild Skickat: den 3 oktober 2012 18:53 Till: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Ämne: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out IBM is not in business to make mainframes or to keep legacy mainframers employed. IBM is in business to make profits for IBM stockholders to divide up each year. Bill Fairchild Programmer Rocket Software 408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA t: +1.617.614.4503 * e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: www.rocketsoftware.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Roberts, John J Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 11:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out I know that there will be people on this list that will insist that the mainframe platform is absolutely viable for the foreseeable future. But what they are really saying is that they will support it as long as it is profitable, and drop it the very day that it isn't. My old employer (Amdahl/Fujitsu) did exactly that, going from Flagship to Nothing in just two years. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
A sometime IBM chairman made Bill's point negatively, in a once celebrated phrase. that phrase was IBM is not an eleemosynary organization. Profit seeking is not, however, a constructive objective. A company must decide how to make profits and, crucially, over what time horizon to try to maximize them. It can take these decisions well or badly, succeed or fail. The masters of American industry in the 1970s and 1980s outsourced and thus destroyed much of the largest and most successful industrial economy in the history of the world in pursuit of very short-term profits. IBM did not decamp in this way. It did make other mistakes. It nevertheless survived, and it is now a more diverse and even more highly profitable company than it was at the time of its hegemony in the computer industry. (That hegemony bred chutzpah/hubris, and we and IBM are well quits of it.) There is anecdotal evidence that IBM's mainframe business remains highly profitable. What has happened and is still perhaps insufficiently understood is that 1) smaller mainframe shops are disappearing and 2) larger ones are growing ever more rapidly. This change has been and will continue to be painful for some. There are no easy ways to help these people available, but perhaps more can be done by taking thought. It may even be that we need a new eleemosynary organization to address their plight. John Gilmore, Ashland, MA 01721 - USA -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-10-03 06:36, Ed Finnell pisze: Few years back one of the SW conference schools had a nasty power outage(not a squirrel attack) and last message on console was a SIM alert NVS battery needs replacing...they got to restore the complex. I bet the message was not so last, or at least it was n-th repetition of the message. Last but not least: remote copy of the DASD box would run unaffected ...if ever existed. Lack of such copy means readiness to restore data from tapes and RPO measured in hours (days). BTW: did they have backup? vbg -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2012 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.410.984 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
You don't always get to choose. Some companies are compartmentalized, and the staff for the old platform is not permitted to work on the new. Some companies will allow you to work on the new platform only if you already have experience on it. Something long ago lost in this thread was a point I made that for Legacy Migration or Legacy Modernization you need people with skills in both the legacy and new platforms. It isn't enough to have some people that are legacy experts and then some other people that are new platform specialists, you need the combination in the same person, although I would recommend an emphasis on legacy knowledge. I am one of those mile wide, inch deep kind of guys. Too long ago I was an MVS SysProg, a CICS SysProg, a VTAM/NCP expert, an IMS DBA, and a DB2 DBA. All at different times between 1970 and 1997. But I am also a certified DotNet Solution Developer. And for a time I faked being a Java Web Developer. On any one of these topics I am lucky if I possess one tenth of the knowledge of a real expert in those areas. But my breadth of experience makes me invaluable when tackling a broad subject like a legacy migration or modernization. I know I can always call upon the true experts when I get down to the nitty gritty details. I might even resort to a posting on the IBMLIST ;-) So the fundamental point I was trying to make is that I think the writing is on the wall for mainframes. They won't go away next week or even in 10 years. But I wouldn't recommend it to your sons and daughters. During the transition period there are going to be great opportunities for those with legacy skills if they can be seen as helping rather than hindering the transition. So if you do get the chance, I would encourage those with legacy skills to also exploit opportunities to learn about the new platforms and get involved in the transition. For anyone under the age of 50 I would think this is absolutely necessary. If you are 60+, you can probably retire doing exactly what you do today. For 50 to 60 years, you are on the bubble and it might burst before you hit the finish line. I know that there will be people on this list that will insist that the mainframe platform is absolutely viable for the foreseeable future. But what they are really saying is that they will support it as long as it is profitable, and drop it the very day that it isn't. My old employer (Amdahl/Fujitsu) did exactly that, going from Flagship to Nothing in just two years. Lastly, what Shmuel said it true for some - there is the legacy team and the separate new technology team. If this is your situation, try to get away to someplace more enlightened. Because if this is the situation, one team is being setup for a fall. Guess which one? John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
IBM is not in business to make mainframes or to keep legacy mainframers employed. IBM is in business to make profits for IBM stockholders to divide up each year. Bill Fairchild Programmer Rocket Software 408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA t: +1.617.614.4503 * e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: www.rocketsoftware.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Roberts, John J Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 11:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out I know that there will be people on this list that will insist that the mainframe platform is absolutely viable for the foreseeable future. But what they are really saying is that they will support it as long as it is profitable, and drop it the very day that it isn't. My old employer (Amdahl/Fujitsu) did exactly that, going from Flagship to Nothing in just two years. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
I heard it third hand from DR provider. They had backup, but it was lengthy affair. We had a couple 'departmental servers' that got hacked-literally took the mother boards and hard drives. When they were rebuilt-'ready for backup'. Uh, don't you have it? In a message dated 10/3/2012 1:38:01 A.M. Central Daylight Time, r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl writes: did they have backup? vbg -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Bill, They are also in the business of making hardware, my father worked for Unisys and when I mentioned I wanted to get into this industry he's the one that steered me toward IBM. Scott ford www.identityforge.com Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. - Chinese Proverb On Oct 3, 2012, at 12:52 PM, Bill Fairchild bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com wrote: IBM is not in business to make mainframes or to keep legacy mainframers employed. IBM is in business to make profits for IBM stockholders to divide up each year. Bill Fairchild Programmer Rocket Software 408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA t: +1.617.614.4503 * e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: www.rocketsoftware.com -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Roberts, John J Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 11:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out I know that there will be people on this list that will insist that the mainframe platform is absolutely viable for the foreseeable future. But what they are really saying is that they will support it as long as it is profitable, and drop it the very day that it isn't. My old employer (Amdahl/Fujitsu) did exactly that, going from Flagship to Nothing in just two years. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
John, So true...remember the Golden Rule, those who have the gold makes the rules Scott ford www.identityforge.com Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. - Chinese Proverb On Oct 3, 2012, at 4:29 PM, McKown, John john.mck...@healthmarkets.com wrote: Back in his college days, when my friend's business professor asked: What business is IBM in? There were many answers: hardware, computers, software, typewriters (yes, that long ago!), printers, ... . My friend's answer: They are in the business of making money. He got an A+ for that answer. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 3:13 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out Bill, They are also in the business of making hardware, my father worked for Unisys and when I mentioned I wanted to get into this industry he's the one that steered me toward IBM. Scott ford -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Ford Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 3:13 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out They are also in the business of making hardware, my father worked for Unisys and when I mentioned I wanted to get into this industry he's the one that steered me toward IBM. Not ultimately. Mainframes are hardware. DASD is hardware. Typewriters and punched card sorters are hardware, and they were once IBM's main product lines. Even if their mission statement requires them to continue making hardware, they are free to change their mission statement any time it becomes necessary. It is my opinion that they will also dump their hardware business the day it no longer is profitable. We have already seen IBM sell off their DASD manufacturing business. IBM, and tens of thousands of other American businesses, must follow the federal laws of the United States regarding corporations, and one of those laws requires that the top financial officers of the corporation take care to exercise their fiduciary responsibilities, the primary one being to reward their stockholders. I doubt that our laws require IBM to continue making hardware, however. It's a happy coincidence for CEOs and CFOS that they can always blame US law for requiring that they make cold-blooded decisions that do not sit well with employees or those whose livelihoods depend upon the continued sale of certain products. The US auto businesses have dumped many auto dealerships that depended on the continuous stream of hardware from the auto industry. It may be a long-standing tradition of company X to manufacture product Y, but company X's 1st priority is to stay in business and continue making profits, not to continue making Y. This brutal logic works for all federally chartered corporations. Another way to understand this brutal logic is to ponder what would I do if I were CEO of IBM and our hardware divisions were no longer profitable? I know what I would do. Bill Fairchild Programmer Rocket Software 408 Chamberlain Park Lane * Franklin, TN 37069-2526 * USA t: +1.617.614.4503 * e: bfairch...@rocketsoftware.com * w: www.rocketsoftware.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Bill Fairchild wrote: It is my opinion that they will also dump their hardware business the day it no longer is profitable. Another thing to keep in mind, that as a product line declines, the costs to support that product line must also decrease, or the remaining customers must bear an ever increasing burden until a breaking point is reached and even the most conservative customers conclude they need to jump ship. If for example, the number of customers for CICS licenses starts to decline, you can expect changes at Hursley Park. Some of the greybeards will be shown the door, replaced with younger people at half the cost. At some point, more and more support and development work will be shipped to cheaper locations (India, China, etc.). And of course, customers will be asked to pay more. And enhancements will slow down. Eventually there will be a death spiral when customers are leaving the platform at such a rate that IBM can't squeeze their people or their customers any more. It is then that they will put the plug, like HP did with the 3000 product line. Or they might be convinced to make it open source like Linux and thereby gain community support. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
John, I understand, but someone is going to have support all the Banking legacy mainframes apps etc. There are a serious numerous with serious bucks invested. There at or time and the numbers probably are larger, we're 8000+ z/os installation, not sure how many licenses , Lpars, etc. Scott ford www.identityforge.com Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. - Chinese Proverb On Oct 3, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Roberts, John J jrobe...@dhs.state.ia.us wrote: Bill Fairchild wrote: It is my opinion that they will also dump their hardware business the day it no longer is profitable. Another thing to keep in mind, that as a product line declines, the costs to support that product line must also decrease, or the remaining customers must bear an ever increasing burden until a breaking point is reached and even the most conservative customers conclude they need to jump ship. If for example, the number of customers for CICS licenses starts to decline, you can expect changes at Hursley Park. Some of the greybeards will be shown the door, replaced with younger people at half the cost. At some point, more and more support and development work will be shipped to cheaper locations (India, China, etc.). And of course, customers will be asked to pay more. And enhancements will slow down. Eventually there will be a death spiral when customers are leaving the platform at such a rate that IBM can't squeeze their people or their customers any more. It is then that they will put the plug, like HP did with the 3000 product line. Or they might be convinced to make it open source like Linux and thereby gain community support. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 19:48:27 -0400, Scott Ford wrote: I understand, but someone is going to have support all the Banking legacy mainframes apps etc. There are a serious numerous with serious bucks invested. There at or time and the numbers probably are larger, we're 8000+ z/os installation, not sure how many licenses , Lpars, etc. Do you believe the costs will reach a plateau (in uninflated dollars) or climb indefinitely? If the latter, what happens? Federal bailout, like the auto companies? Other (specify)? On Oct 3, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Roberts, John J wrote: Another thing to keep in mind, that as a product line declines, the costs to support that product line must also decrease, or the remaining customers must bear an ever increasing burden until a breaking point is reached and even the most conservative customers conclude they need to jump ship. If for example, the number of customers for CICS licenses starts to decline, you can expect changes at Hursley Park. Some of the greybeards will be shown the door, replaced with younger people at half the cost. At some point, more and more support and development work will be shipped to cheaper locations (India, China, etc.). And of course, customers will be asked to pay more. And enhancements will slow down. Eventually there will be a death spiral when customers are leaving the platform at such a rate that IBM can't squeeze their people or their customers any more. It is then that they will put the plug, like HP did with the 3000 product line. Or they might be convinced to make it open source like Linux and thereby gain community support. This becomes a fringe preoccupation, like the people who salvage, repair, and use Curtas. And even that fringe can't be attracted unless IBM were to make core z/OS available on inexpensive hardware platforms such as I've heard of. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Gil, Yeah I agree, also other platforms has to have fast enough I/O. CPUs are faster and faster but I/ O is always the bottleneck. Prices should be also geared toward the smaller platforms. Scott ford www.identityforge.com Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. - Chinese Proverb On Oct 3, 2012, at 9:31 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 19:48:27 -0400, Scott Ford wrote: I understand, but someone is going to have support all the Banking legacy mainframes apps etc. There are a serious numerous with serious bucks invested. There at or time and the numbers probably are larger, we're 8000+ z/os installation, not sure how many licenses , Lpars, etc. Do you believe the costs will reach a plateau (in uninflated dollars) or climb indefinitely? If the latter, what happens? Federal bailout, like the auto companies? Other (specify)? On Oct 3, 2012, at 5:08 PM, Roberts, John J wrote: Another thing to keep in mind, that as a product line declines, the costs to support that product line must also decrease, or the remaining customers must bear an ever increasing burden until a breaking point is reached and even the most conservative customers conclude they need to jump ship. If for example, the number of customers for CICS licenses starts to decline, you can expect changes at Hursley Park. Some of the greybeards will be shown the door, replaced with younger people at half the cost. At some point, more and more support and development work will be shipped to cheaper locations (India, China, etc.). And of course, customers will be asked to pay more. And enhancements will slow down. Eventually there will be a death spiral when customers are leaving the platform at such a rate that IBM can't squeeze their people or their customers any more. It is then that they will put the plug, like HP did with the 3000 product line. Or they might be convinced to make it open source like Linux and thereby gain community support. This becomes a fringe preoccupation, like the people who salvage, repair, and use Curtas. And even that fringe can't be attracted unless IBM were to make core z/OS available on inexpensive hardware platforms such as I've heard of. -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 18:33:29 -0500, Roberts, John J wrote: Has anyone seen this NY Times article? Perhaps the reporter should have looked in the Times Tower for how they are saving power. Mainframes are far more efficient, and these CIO's and companies are doing whatever they can do to get rid of them. Maybe the Times needs a mirror http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/technology/data-centers-waste-vast-amounts-of-energy-belying-industry-image.html?pagewanted=all_r=0 (Just to try to unwrap the URL.) (3) The CPU chip makers are about to apply Mobile technology to their Server CPU's. Mobile CPU's dynamically adjust their clock speeds to fit the workload, sometimes running at 200MHz and at other times running full throttle at 2GHz+ or more. Server CPU's will soon do the same. When throttled down, a CPU uses much less energy and radiates much less heat. Is there any model of z that does this yet? -- gil -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
(3) The CPU chip makers are about to apply Mobile technology to their Server CPU's. Mobile CPU's dynamically adjust their clock speeds to fit the workload, sometimes running at 200MHz and at other times running full throttle at 2GHz+ or more. Server CPU's will soon do the same. When throttled down, a CPU uses much less energy and radiates much less heat. Is there any model of z that does this yet? MVS puts CPs into a (restartable) wait state when there is no work for them to do. I wonder if a CP in wait state is using any power at all? If so, this would be even better that merely throttling. -- Peter Hunkeler -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-10-02 10:37, Hunkeler Peter (KIUP 4) pisze: (3) The CPU chip makers are about to apply Mobile technology to their Server CPU's. Mobile CPU's dynamically adjust their clock speeds to fit the workload, sometimes running at 200MHz and at other times running full throttle at 2GHz+ or more. Server CPU's will soon do the same. When throttled down, a CPU uses much less energy and radiates much less heat. Is there any model of z that does this yet? MVS puts CPs into a (restartable) wait state when there is no work for them to do. I wonder if a CP in wait state is using any power at all? If so, this would be even better that merely throttling. I can say for my machine: power usage does not depend on current workload. HMC Activity monitor shows roughly the same value for CPC 90% busy, 5% busy and single LPAR or CPC activated, but completely not in use. Actually there is green mode - when refrigerator (air cooler) is out of order. In such case the clock slow down the cycle. ;-) -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2012 r. kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.410.984 złotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 15:46:04 -0500, Roberts, John J jrobe...@dhs.state.ia.us wrote: Well, to each his own. You can either resist change, or you can embrace it. I chose to embrace it. I think it has extended my career. Oh I went along for the ride with the outsourcing all right, moved around a couple of times within the outsourcer before finally escaping. It was interesting, but I don't quite see how my 'personal profile was bolstered', my income certainly wasn't. What frustrated me the most was how they took a shop full of really talented people, that was on the road to making some real improvements to make things better, and is now trapped in outsouced limbo, starved of any money or people time to make any kind of improvements. Most all of the good people are gone, service levels and satisfaction for the end users has dropped considerably. Dana -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Roberts, John J wrote: So while we might have 1TB drives in our desktops, the enterprise RAID arrays are stuck at 73GB-146GB-300GB per HDA. Actually, z/OS has supported 1TB drives (EAVs) on DS8Ks since z/OS R10, which went out of service last year. In R10 we supported VSAM, in R11 we added Extended Format sequential, and in R12 (the oldest release now in service) we added support for almost everything else. There are still some outliers for system-level data sets (RACF DB, page data sets, NUCLEUS, etc.) but the vast majority of application data can now live happily on an EAV so long as it's read and written using system access methods. From where I sit, the three big inhibitors to adoption seem to be a combination of disk control unit hardware support, an understandable unwillingness to reconfigure existing storage units to create larger volumes than those already configured, and an understandable reluctance to reconfigure SMS classes to make effective use of larger volumes unless necessary to support more online storage or larger data set size maximums. A somewhat distant fourth is concern about application RTOs. My personal opinion is that over time the third reason will be overcome by the simplification aspects of managing a small number of large volumes rather than the other way 'round, but time will tell. -- John Eells z/OS Technical Marketing IBM Poughkeepsie ee...@us.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
John Eells wrote: Actually, z/OS has supported 1TB drives (EAVs) on DS8Ks since z/OS R10, which went out of service last year. In R10 we supported VSAM, in R11 we added Extended Format sequential, and in R12 (the oldest release now in service) we added support for almost everything else. There are still some outliers for system-level data sets (RACF DB, page data sets, NUCLEUS, etc.) but the vast majority of application data can now live happily on an EAV so long as it's read and written using system access methods. How far off is IBM from offering SSD technology in their disk arrays? And what will large scale adoption of SSD do to change data protection strategies? For example, while I have heard that SSD's are much more reliable than HDD, but when they do fail, it is the whole device that is gone, whereas HDD dies slowly in most cases. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Roberts, John J jrobe...@dhs.state.ia.us wrote in message news:93891f43642f3c419a7d75acc2b1db6f3cbc75f...@exchangemb2.dhs.state.i a.us... John Eells wrote: Actually, z/OS has supported 1TB drives (EAVs) on DS8Ks since z/OS R10, which went out of service last year. In R10 we supported VSAM, in R11 we added Extended Format sequential, and in R12 (the oldest release now in service) we added support for almost everything else. There are still some outliers for system-level data sets (RACF DB, page data sets, NUCLEUS, etc.) but the vast majority of application data can now live happily on an EAV so long as it's read and written using system access methods. How far off is IBM from offering SSD technology in their disk arrays? And what will large scale adoption of SSD do to change data protection strategies? For example, while I have heard that SSD's are much more reliable than HDD, but when they do fail, it is the whole device that is gone, whereas HDD dies slowly in most cases. John AFAIK, we would have had SSDs in our DS8800, if we had chosen for a section with high performance disks. It makes no difference how a disk dies if it dies, the box can handle a failed device. Kees. For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Roberts, John J wrote: John Eells wrote: Actually, z/OS has supported 1TB drives (EAVs) on DS8Ks since z/OS R10, which went out of service last year. In R10 we supported VSAM, in R11 we added Extended Format sequential, and in R12 (the oldest release now in service) we added support for almost everything else. There are still some outliers for system-level data sets (RACF DB, page data sets, NUCLEUS, etc.) but the vast majority of application data can now live happily on an EAV so long as it's read and written using system access methods. How far off is IBM from offering SSD technology in their disk arrays? And what will large scale adoption of SSD do to change data protection strategies? For example, while I have heard that SSD's are much more reliable than HDD, but when they do fail, it is the whole device that is gone, whereas HDD dies slowly in most cases. They have been available since February 2009. The DS8K uses a RAID array of SSD devices and dynamic chip sparing if I recall correctly. -- John Eells z/OS Technical Marketing IBM Poughkeepsie ee...@us.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
John Roberts wrote: begin extract Has anyone seen this NY Times article? Perhaps the reporter should have looked in the Times Tower for how they are saving power. end extract Since his words are being recopied over and over it is appropriate to note that the New York Times Company has not owned or made any use of the 'Times' Tower in 'Times' Square for decades. Even the moving display of news flashes (intermixed with advertisements) is not from the Times. Proper/place names are extraordinarily resistant to change, but inferences from names to things are perilous. --jg -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On 2 October 2012 10:20, John Eells ee...@us.ibm.com wrote: Roberts, John J wrote: So while we might have 1TB drives in our desktops, the enterprise RAID arrays are stuck at 73GB-146GB-300GB per HDA. Actually, z/OS has supported 1TB drives (EAVs) on DS8Ks since z/OS R10, which went out of service last year. In R10 we supported VSAM, in R11 we added Extended Format sequential, and in R12 (the oldest release now in service) we added support for almost everything else. There are still some outliers for system-level data sets (RACF DB, page data sets, NUCLEUS, etc.) but the vast majority of application data can now live happily on an EAV so long as it's read and written using system access methods. But this surely has little if anything to do with the size of the physical drives used by the makers of storage subsystems. Tony H. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
I was referring to the NY Times building at 8th Ave. and 40th Street. Which admittedly, is now accepting non-Times tenants. But it is the Times's (well at least in theory) and is a tower. Doug Doug Fuerst Principal Consultant BK Associates 718.921.2620 917.572.7364 d...@bkassociates.net -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John Gilmore Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:26 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out John Roberts wrote: begin extract Has anyone seen this NY Times article? Perhaps the reporter should have looked in the Times Tower for how they are saving power. end extract Since his words are being recopied over and over it is appropriate to note that the New York Times Company has not owned or made any use of the 'Times' Tower in 'Times' Square for decades. Even the moving display of news flashes (intermixed with advertisements) is not from the Times. Proper/place names are extraordinarily resistant to change, but inferences from names to things are perilous. --jg -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
But this surely has little if anything to do with the size of the physical drives used by the makers of storage subsystems. If storage array makers are using 1TB drives vs the 73GB that was typical just a couple years back, this should translate to many fewer drives. Which should translate to lower power consumption and heat generation, which was the original point I was trying to make. And John Eells can tell us if going to the 2.5 in form factor is in their plans. If so, this could indicate that power consumption will be ever further reduced. One thing that would be interesting to learn: how much of a typical data center's power consumption is attributable to storage subsystems, including RAID and Virtual Tape? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 15:46:04 -0500, Roberts, John J jrobe...@dhs.state.ia.us wrote: Well, to each his own. You can either resist change, or you can embrace it. I chose to embrace it. I think it has extended my career. And even if you don't leave the mainframe, knowing more about the industry and how things work helps you do a better job: rebutting stupid PCs are better arguments, for example. Far too many folks on this list make snide remarks about squatty boxes--and then ask questions to which the answer is GIYF. -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-10-02 17:58, Roberts, John J pisze: [...] One thing that would be interesting to learn: how much of a typical data center's power consumption is attributable to storage subsystems, including RAID and Virtual Tape? Significant part of. Surely more than mainframe CPC, but less than bunch of blades. BTW: How many datacenters are really affected by power shortages? Yes, it's trendy topic, but how many of us are really affected? Note: some datacenters are located outside of U.S. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2012 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.410.984 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Which side does this put me on: I didn't know what GIYF meant. I Googled it to find out. Ironic? -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of zMan Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 11:06 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 15:46:04 -0500, Roberts, John J jrobe...@dhs.state.ia.us wrote: Well, to each his own. You can either resist change, or you can embrace it. I chose to embrace it. I think it has extended my career. And even if you don't leave the mainframe, knowing more about the industry and how things work helps you do a better job: rebutting stupid PCs are better arguments, for example. Far too many folks on this list make snide remarks about squatty boxes--and then ask questions to which the answer is GIYF. -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Attention: The information contained in this message and or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. (GWCC) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Well you're in good company. (If I do say so myself!) -- Donald Grinsell State of Montana 406-444-2983 dgrins...@mt.gov Hell is other people. ~ Jean-Paul Sartre -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Klein, Kevin Sent: Tuesday, 02 October 2012 10:39 To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out Which side does this put me on: I didn't know what GIYF meant. I Googled it to find out. Ironic? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Klein, Kevin k.kl...@gwccnet.com wrote: Which side does this put me on: I didn't know what GIYF meant. I Googled it to find out. Ironic? Maybe, but you've passed the test -- the folks who were about to reply asking what it meant, check yourselves... -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
GIYF and others of that ilk (STFW, RTFM, etc., etc.) have their uses, but they are unlikely to defeat sloth here. --jg -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
One thing no one else has mentioned is that one of the strengths of having many disks is that you can be doing I/O on many more drives at the same time. After all, you can only do 1 read or write from physical disk at a time. Of course, with the huge amounts of cache, that changes. If your datacenter had 100 TB of storage, and each physical disk stored 1 TB, you would only have a maximum of 100 physical I/O's happening at any one point in time. Since most data is not distributed equally, probably only 20-40 I/O's would be happening at once. Just something to think about! Also, I just read something this morning about some new solid state DASD that IBM announced. This is from the announcement letter today: The IBM 100 GB 1.8-inch and 2.5-inch solid-state drives (SSD) provide high-performance, reliable solutions for high-capacity enterprise applications with a moderate read and write mix by employing a 6 GBps SATA interface and MLC NAND technology. These solid-state drives present an opportunity to simplify your local storage infrastructure to help maintain overall maintenance and cooling cost, while considering remote storage solutions for end-to-end data availability. You can get this from today's announcement letters. It's the 1st one. Eric Bielefeld Systems Programmer Roberts wrote: But this surely has little if anything to do with the size of the physical drives used by the makers of storage subsystems. If storage array makers are using 1TB drives vs the 73GB that was typical just a couple years back, this should translate to many fewer drives. Which should translate to lower power consumption and heat generation, which was the original point I was trying to make. And John Eells can tell us if going to the 2.5 in form factor is in their plans. If so, this could indicate that power consumption will be ever further reduced. One thing that would be interesting to learn: how much of a typical data center's power consumption is attributable to storage subsystems, including RAID and Virtual Tape? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On Oct 2, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Eric Bielefeld eric-ibmm...@wi.rr.com wrote: One thing no one else has mentioned is that one of the strengths of having many disks is that you can be doing I/O on many more drives at the same time. After all, you can only do 1 read or write from physical disk at a time. Of course, with the huge amounts of cache, that changes. If your datacenter had 100 TB of storage, and each physical disk stored 1 TB, you would only have a maximum of 100 physical I/O's happening at any one point in time. Since most data is not distributed equally, probably only 20-40 I/O's would be happening at once. Just something to think about! With HiperPAV this is really only an issue for the back end of your storage controller, and as you say with enough cache it shouldn't be a problem even there. -- Curtis Pew (c@its.utexas.edu) ITS Systems Core The University of Texas at Austin -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Yep, it's like across instead of pronouncing it with a 't' , acrosst ... Scott ford www.identityforge.com Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand. - Chinese Proverb On Oct 2, 2012, at 1:53 PM, John Gilmore jwgli...@gmail.com wrote: GIYF and others of that ilk (STFW, RTFM, etc., etc.) have their uses, but they are unlikely to defeat sloth here. --jg -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
On 10/02/2012 02:41 PM, Pew, Curtis G wrote: On Oct 2, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Eric Bielefeld eric-ibmm...@wi.rr.com wrote: One thing no one else has mentioned is that one of the strengths of having many disks is that you can be doing I/O on many more drives at the same time. After all, you can only do 1 read or write from physical disk at a time. Of course, with the huge amounts of cache, that changes. If your datacenter had 100 TB of storage, and each physical disk stored 1 TB, you would only have a maximum of 100 physical I/O's happening at any one point in time. Since most data is not distributed equally, probably only 20-40 I/O's would be happening at once. Just something to think about! With HiperPAV this is really only an issue for the back end of your storage controller, and as you say with enough cache it shouldn't be a problem even there. I'm not sure I totally buy that sufficient cache necessarily eliminates all concern about back store bandwidth. If the back end storage is unable to sustain the average write load sent to the front end because there are too few physical drives in the back end, wouldn't one potentially have to have a really humongous cache, and then also have potential concerns about how long it might take to physically de-stage the cache data in the event of a system shut down? -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Few years back one of the SW conference schools had a nasty power outage(not a squirrel attack) and last message on console was a SIM alert NVS battery needs replacing...they got to restore the complex. In a message dated 10/2/2012 10:07:44 P.M. Central Daylight Time, jcew...@acm.org writes: potentially have to have a really humongous cache, and then also have potential concerns about how long it might take to physically de-stage the cache data in the event of a system shut down? -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
There's also static power save mode. That feature debuted in the z196. If you have sustained low or zero utilization periods it's generally worth using. Or if you're running much quicker than you need to be within your batch window(s) then you might use this feature. The word static is perhaps a bit misleading(*) because you can control (and automate) activation and deactivation of power save mode via Capacity Provisioning Manager (CPM), for example. You will need z/OS 1.10 or higher with OA30433. If you have z/OS 1.13, you're ready already. CPM is found in base z/OS. (*) From a purely hardware point of view -- in engineering terms -- the word static applies. But who cares? Do you buy a mainframe solely as a physical work of art, to install next to your Picasso? Of course not. Naturally z/OS is incredibly dynamic, and it's the end result that counts. Forgive us for underselling our capabilities. :-) As a reminder, even if I don't write it, my views are solely my own. Including my opinion that Picasso was a great artist. Timothy Sipples Consulting Enterprise IT Architect (Based in Singapore) E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
John's reason #7 reminds me of when management was sugar coating the decision to outsource our entire shop, how it would 'bolster your personal portfolio'! win-win! Dana -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out
John's reason #7 reminds me of when management was sugar coating the decision to outsource our entire shop, how it would 'bolster your personal portfolio'! win-win! Well, to each his own. You can either resist change, or you can embrace it. I chose to embrace it. I think it has extended my career. I got the chop back in 2008 from my employer of nearly 30 years. Four years later I am still working independently and earning pretty much the same as before. I can't say the same for many of my former colleagues. Of one thing I am certain - at the CxO level very few are truly committed to the mainframe platform. Some of course are resigned to the great difficulty of ever getting off the mainframe, but most would if they could. Those in technical support positions that show themselves to be closed minded about anything non-mainframe will find themselves at odds with IT management. Who will prevail in the end? My advice to those that make a living on mainframe technologies is to always make your arguments for retaining the big iron on facts, not emotion. By all means ask questions like: (1) Our CICS availability last year was 99.999%. Mr. Oracle Man, can your system match that? (but be prepared for the counter argument that your app doesn't really need five nines reliability). (2) Mr CIO, you complain about the cost of the mainframe System Programmers. But doesn't a good Oracle 11g DBA cost $150K? (3) Isn't Ruby on Rails just another fad? After all, look what happened to Borland Delphi. Or ADA. Or Dbase IV? Shouldn't we stick with proven technologies from companies that are firmly established, like Big Blue? And when your CIO insists that the company must get off the mainframe, since all you guys are north of 50 years and will soon be gone, counter this argument by suggesting that you and your colleagues could undertake a training and mentoring program to develop a new generation of people, much as was done to address the skills shortages that occurred in the 70's and 80's. My 2 cents worth. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Has anyone seen this NY Times article? Perhaps the reporter should have looked in the Times Tower for how they are saving power. Mainframes are far more efficient, and these CIO's and companies are doing whatever they can do to get rid of them. Maybe the Times needs a mirror Doug http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/technology/data-centers-waste-vast-amounts -of-energy-belying-industry-image.html?pagewanted=all_r=0 Doug Fuerst Principal Consultant BK Associates 718.921.2620 917.572.7364 d...@bkassociates.net -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Roberts, John J Sent: Monday, October 01, 2012 4:46 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Career Advice for the Mainframer - Was RE: Another Light goes out John's reason #7 reminds me of when management was sugar coating the decision to outsource our entire shop, how it would 'bolster your personal portfolio'! win-win! Well, to each his own. You can either resist change, or you can embrace it. I chose to embrace it. I think it has extended my career. I got the chop back in 2008 from my employer of nearly 30 years. Four years later I am still working independently and earning pretty much the same as before. I can't say the same for many of my former colleagues. Of one thing I am certain - at the CxO level very few are truly committed to the mainframe platform. Some of course are resigned to the great difficulty of ever getting off the mainframe, but most would if they could. Those in technical support positions that show themselves to be closed minded about anything non-mainframe will find themselves at odds with IT management. Who will prevail in the end? My advice to those that make a living on mainframe technologies is to always make your arguments for retaining the big iron on facts, not emotion. By all means ask questions like: (1) Our CICS availability last year was 99.999%. Mr. Oracle Man, can your system match that? (but be prepared for the counter argument that your app doesn't really need five nines reliability). (2) Mr CIO, you complain about the cost of the mainframe System Programmers. But doesn't a good Oracle 11g DBA cost $150K? (3) Isn't Ruby on Rails just another fad? After all, look what happened to Borland Delphi. Or ADA. Or Dbase IV? Shouldn't we stick with proven technologies from companies that are firmly established, like Big Blue? And when your CIO insists that the company must get off the mainframe, since all you guys are north of 50 years and will soon be gone, counter this argument by suggesting that you and your colleagues could undertake a training and mentoring program to develop a new generation of people, much as was done to address the skills shortages that occurred in the 70's and 80's. My 2 cents worth. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Mainframe Power - Was RE: Another Light goes out
Has anyone seen this NY Times article? Perhaps the reporter should have looked in the Times Tower for how they are saving power. Mainframes are far more efficient, and these CIO's and companies are doing whatever they can do to get rid of them. Maybe the Times needs a mirror Well, besides the Mainframes are Better Argument that Doug intended, there is something here to discuss that is interesting for both the mainframe and non-mainframe communities. I can confirm that the data center power problem is extremely pervasive. A relative who works for Intel tells me that this problem is a major focus for them. The situation arose because of these factors: (1) The very idea of shared infrastructure was foreign to those who built the eCommerce apps of the late 90's and early 2000's. So if you were going to roll out a new web app you needed two or more new web servers, two or more new database servers, possibly two or more new application servers, etc. And you also needed separate environments for DEV, TEST, and UAT. So pretty soon you have filled up several nineteen inch racks. (2) As CPU clock speeds kept rising, the TDP (Thermal Design Power) kept increasing too, hitting 150 watts with the Harpertown series of Xeon processors in 2007. (3) The move to storing images, audio, and HD video have seen an explosion in demand for data storage. Each disk needs 10 to 25 watts energy to spin as fast as 15K rpm (Seagate Cheetah). But enterprise class drives have lower capacities that consumer drives. So while we might have 1TB drives in our desktops, the enterprise RAID arrays are stuck at 73GB-146GB-300GB per HDA. The end result is that even modest IT operations have hundreds of servers and disk arrays containing thousands of disks. And most of these servers just sit doing mostly nothing. And some servers exist simply because no-one can remember its purpose. But change is coming, and not just with the Pie In the Sky idea of Cloud Computing. Consider this: (1) CPU TDP crested at 150 watts in 2007 and is now in decline. The recent Sandy Bridge chips are all down to 90w or 65w. Some are running as low as 35w. (2) The industry has embraced Virtualization as part of the solution for server proliferation. So instead of Blade Servers, companies are buying big multi-socket, multi-core machines with tons of RAM and then using them to host dozens if not hundreds of virtual machines. Some of these VM's will be very busy serving up web pages or accessing databases. Others will simply loaf along responding to occasional requests for LDAP requests, emails, etc. In other words, horizontal scaling is out of fashion, and vertical scaling is back in vogue. (3) The CPU chip makers are about to apply Mobile technology to their Server CPU's. Mobile CPU's dynamically adjust their clock speeds to fit the workload, sometimes running at 200MHz and at other times running full throttle at 2GHz+ or more. Server CPU's will soon do the same. When throttled down, a CPU uses much less energy and radiates much less heat. (4) The spinning disk makers are about to also apply Mobile technology to their Enterprise disks. No need to spin at 15K rpm when the requests aren't coming in. They are also going smaller - down to 2.5 inches instead of the current standard 3.5. Smaller platters mean faster seek times. (5) NAND flash and NOR flash technology will soon start eating away at the Hard Disk market. Already we have SSD's that are 1TB. Supposedly we will soon see 4TB and 16TB capacities, all with access times 10 times faster than HDD. And with power consumption 10% or less. (6) Server System Administrators are being overwhelmed with supporting the hundreds of server images, whether virtual or real. So expect them to push back on the separate servers for separate apps practice. While you might think that nothing here matters to mainframers. But consider this: (1) Server disk array technology is substantially the same as mainframe disk arrays. Many companies use the same EMC arrays to provision both their Wintel servers and their z/OS platform. If EMC arrays start using 2.5inch disks or SSD's, then the benefits will extend to both mainframe and non-mainframe environments. (2) Many mainframes have gone to virtual tape technology, just as non-mainframe servers have done. (3) Mainframers of course embraced virtualization long ago, beginning with VM/370 and later with LPAR. (4) If you think that a z/Architecture processor is radically different from an Intel Xeon, you only need to read the respective descriptions. So it isn't so far off the mark to think that z chips have the same issues as Xeon's and that the same fixes will be applied to both. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
In ce3ffbb7e42033469ef752a1d8a19ba10216f...@kl1221tc.cs.ad.klmcorp.net, on 09/27/2012 at 03:52 PM, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM kees.verno...@klm.com said: That way, Linux is not free, you have to buy a PC first, You don't need to buy a PC from Linus Torvalds to run Linux, and you don't need a PC at all in order for it to be legal to run Linux. If someone hands you a bucket of paint as a gift, it is free whether or not you own a house; if you don't own one, the paint may be useful, but it is free. If you have to buy a house to get the paint then it is not free. If you don't have to pay to get a product, it is free of charge, In this case you *do* have to pay in order to get the product. regardless of whether you paid for other things before or not, and to the same company or not. If you don't already own that other product, and you can't legallu acquire the first product without paying for the first product, then it is not free. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
In 5064c431.8000...@bremultibank.com.pl, on 09/27/2012 at 11:25 PM, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl said: We (me and others) claim that .NET framework is free of charge. Having it does not involve any additional cost. Does that mean that you will steal a copy of windoze? You are not legally allowed to use .net without it, and that does involve an additional cost. Whether you chose to pay that additional cost for other reasons is irrelevant. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
1. .Net framework is NOT bundled as notepad o minesweeper. It is distributed separately. 2. You cannot order z/OS without VTAM and TCPIP, but this is off-topic. BTW: You can order enhanced security for VTAM (Sec Lvl3), this is optional. 3. You compare TSO to .NET, but it's bad comparison. TSO is mandatory (you don't have to use it, but you'll get it with z/OS) part of z/OS bundle. You cannot order z/OS without TSO and LLA, but you can order Windows without .NET framework and use applications written using ISV tools. 4. You can get from IBM add-ons like Ported Tools. You have to order it explicitely, it's not always in the bundle. However it's free of charge. Obviously, in order to use it you have to have z/OS, computer, server room, etc. 5. Microsoft allow you to download and use .NET as well as PowerToys, but you have to order them explicitely, these are NOT part of Windows bundle. 6. Almost every free software manufacturer do it for money. Sometime it's free of charge runtime, in other case some tools making work more convenient, etc. etc. 7. It's quite obvious that software developer buys compiler (and many other tools) to write, and usually sell programs. So, ISV pays for the compiler. Some compiler vendors say: you have to pay for the compiler, but your customer is free of charge TO US - the customer pays only to ISV. Some other sell compiler and runtime. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland W dniu 2012-09-28 16:02, McKown, John pisze: Since it's Friday and I am not doing much today, I'll jump in. When one buys (actually licenses) a version of what is called MS-Windows, they get a lot of different programs all bundled together. The programs which make up the .net run-time environment are a part of this bundle. Therefore, IMO, .net run-time is an integral part of MS-Windows and so is not free per se. You don't pay for it separately, like you do for MS-Office. But you can't get .net run-time separate from MS-Windows (well, ignoring Mono at this point, you can't run Mono on MS-Windows). Also, you cannot legally get and use the bundle called MS-Windows without a license. That license may be paid for by you; or by a friend; or hidden as the Microsoft tax when you purchase a PC with MS-Windows pre-installed. .net run-time is like Internet Explorer. Both are bundled and their use is allowed because you have a license for MS-Windows. In opposition to this would be software such as Oracle's Java and LibreOffice. Neither of these are distributed in the MS-Windows bundle. Both of these may be downloaded, installed, and used without paying money or other consideration. However, if you look closely at the sites, you will see that there is a explicitly granted license to you to allow you download, install, and use them. They are not public domain. Java is gratis (no cost). LibreOffice is both gratis (no cost) and libre (you can get; modify; and redistribute). Technically, you are not supposed to download Java, then give that downloaded copy to another. You are only granted the right to download Java for yourself, for use on that specific PC. Again, unlike LibreOffice whose license allows you to redistribute it. In the z/OS world, what exactly is z/OS? It definitely isn't free, so what is being paid for? Is it the BCP which actually costs money; and the rest (like TSO, LLA, VLF, DFSMSdfp, LE) are free just because bundled? LE might be considered the .net of z/OS. LE is not cost-free! You certainly can't order z/OS without getting and using LE. If you don't like LE as an example, what about DFSMSdfp? It is also bundled and not part of the BCP. There is other software which runs on z/OS which some might consider as part of z/OS. One example is Communications Server, aka VTAM and TCPIP. Guess what? You can order z/OS without ordering Communications Server. It is useful? Well, how about a batch-only image which is connected to another system using a CTC as an NJE channel. The second image could do JES2 NJE to the batch image without the need for Communications Server. Sounds weird to me, but what do I know of unusual requirements? There is other software which is obviously not part of z/OS: the compilers for example. Anyway, the way that I think of it .net is not free because it's cost is bundled into MS-Windows. Other may consider it to be free because it is not separately priced. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Either way, you pay money to MS. -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy
Re: Another Light goes out
John: Your points are good. However you *MUST* order (and pay for) LE as other components TCP and others need it (LE). Ed On Sep 28, 2012, at 9:02 AM, McKown, John wrote: Since it's Friday and I am not doing much today, I'll jump in. When one buys (actually licenses) a version of what is called MS- Windows, they get a lot of different programs all bundled together. The programs which make up the .net run-time environment are a part of this bundle. Therefore, IMO, .net run-time is an integral part of MS-Windows and so is not free per se. You don't pay for it separately, like you do for MS-Office. But you can't get .net run-time separate from MS-Windows (well, ignoring Mono at this point, you can't run Mono on MS-Windows). Also, you cannot legally get and use the bundle called MS-Windows without a license. That license may be paid for by you; or by a friend; or hidden as the Microsoft tax when you purchase a PC with MS-Windows pre- installed. .net run-time is like Internet Explorer. Both are bundled and their use is allowed because you have a license for MS- Windows. In opposition to this would be software such as Oracle's Java and LibreOffice. Neither of these are distributed in the MS-Windows bundle. Both of these may be downloaded, installed, and used without paying money or other consideration. However, if you look closely at the sites, you will see that there is a explicitly granted license to you to allow you download, install, and use them. They are not public domain. Java is gratis (no cost). LibreOffice is both gratis (no cost) and libre (you can get; modify; and redistribute). Technically, you are not supposed to download Java, then give that downloaded copy to another. You are only granted the right to download Java for yourself, for use on that specific PC. Again, unlike LibreOffice whose license allows you to redistribute it. In the z/OS world, what exactly is z/OS? It definitely isn't free, so what is being paid for? Is it the BCP which actually costs money; and the rest (like TSO, LLA, VLF, DFSMSdfp, LE) are free just because bundled? LE might be considered the .net of z/OS. LE is not cost-free! You certainly can't order z/OS without getting and using LE. If you don't like LE as an example, what about DFSMSdfp? It is also bundled and not part of the BCP. There is other software which runs on z/OS which some might consider as part of z/OS. One example is Communications Server, aka VTAM and TCPIP. Guess what? You can order z/OS without ordering Communications Server. It is useful? Well, how about a batch-only image which is connected to another system using a CTC as an NJE channel. The second image could do JES2 NJE to the batch image without the need for Communications Server. Sounds weird to me, but what do I know of unusual requirements? There is other software which is obviously not part of z/OS: the compilers for example. Anyway, the way that I think of it .net is not free because it's cost is bundled into MS-Windows. Other may consider it to be free because it is not separately priced. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Either way, you pay money to MS. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 7:51 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Another Light goes out In 5064c431.8000...@bremultibank.com.pl, on 09/27/2012 at 11:25 PM, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl said: We (me and others) claim that .NET framework is free of charge. Having it does not involve any additional cost. Does that mean that you will steal a copy of windoze? You are not legally allowed to use .net without it, and that does involve an additional cost. Whether you chose to pay that additional cost for other reasons is irrelevant. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) - - For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access
Re: Another Light goes out
As R.S. pointed out, .net is not bundled (I thought it was because the MS-Windows at work had it - our Windows people must have integrated in; and at home I use only Linux). So I guess .net is free the same way that Java is free. That is, no direct cost to you if you already have everything else you need to run it. I guess that I could download it on my Linux box. But that would be like getting a free tractor tire when you don't have a tractor. shrug/ It is not free for me to use at home because I would need to invest in an MS-Windows license so that I could use it. Most Windows users would consider it free because they simply assume that everybody already has a PC and is running MS-Windows. I buy my PCs from a vendor (ZaReason) who bundles Linux (distro of your choice) instead of Windows. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Ed Gould Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 10:08 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Another Light goes out John: Your points are good. However you *MUST* order (and pay for) LE as other components TCP and others need it (LE). Ed On Sep 28, 2012, at 9:02 AM, McKown, John wrote: Since it's Friday and I am not doing much today, I'll jump in. When one buys (actually licenses) a version of what is called MS- Windows, they get a lot of different programs all bundled together. The programs which make up the .net run-time environment are a part of this bundle. Therefore, IMO, .net run-time is an integral part of MS-Windows and so is not free per se. You don't pay for it separately, like you do for MS-Office. But you can't get .net run-time separate from MS-Windows (well, ignoring Mono at this point, you can't run Mono on MS-Windows). Also, you cannot legally get and use the bundle called MS-Windows without a license. That license may be paid for by you; or by a friend; or hidden as the Microsoft tax when you purchase a PC with MS-Windows pre- installed. .net run-time is like Internet Explorer. Both are bundled and their use is allowed because you have a license for MS- Windows. In opposition to this would be software such as Oracle's Java and LibreOffice. Neither of these are distributed in the MS-Windows bundle. Both of these may be downloaded, installed, and used without paying money or other consideration. However, if you look closely at the sites, you will see that there is a explicitly granted license to you to allow you download, install, and use them. They are not public domain. Java is gratis (no cost). LibreOffice is both gratis (no cost) and libre (you can get; modify; and redistribute). Technically, you are not supposed to download Java, then give that downloaded copy to another. You are only granted the right to download Java for yourself, for use on that specific PC. Again, unlike LibreOffice whose license allows you to redistribute it. In the z/OS world, what exactly is z/OS? It definitely isn't free, so what is being paid for? Is it the BCP which actually costs money; and the rest (like TSO, LLA, VLF, DFSMSdfp, LE) are free just because bundled? LE might be considered the .net of z/OS. LE is not cost-free! You certainly can't order z/OS without getting and using LE. If you don't like LE as an example, what about DFSMSdfp? It is also bundled and not part of the BCP. There is other software which runs on z/OS which some might consider as part of z/OS. One example is Communications Server, aka VTAM and TCPIP. Guess what? You can order z/OS without ordering Communications Server. It is useful? Well, how about a batch-only image which is connected to another system using a CTC as an NJE channel. The second image could do JES2 NJE to the batch image without the need for Communications Server. Sounds weird to me, but what do I know of unusual requirements? There is other software which is obviously not part of z/OS: the compilers for example. Anyway, the way that I think of it .net is not free because it's cost is bundled into MS-Windows. Other may consider it to be free because it is not separately priced. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Either way
Re: Another Light goes out
-Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Shmuel Metz (Seymour J.) Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 12:27 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Another Light goes out snip Is it legal for you to download .net without owning a windoze license and then to run it under, e.g., ODIN, wine? If not, then it is not free. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Ok. That is one valid definition of free. IANAL, but looking here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms994405.aspx it says: quote Microsoft .NET Framework Redistributable EULA ... NOTE: IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALID EULA FOR ANY OS PRODUCT (MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98, WINDOWS ME, WINDOWS NT 4.0 (DESKTOP EDITION), WINDOWS 2000 OPERATING SYSTEM, WINDOWS XP PROFESSIONAL AND/OR WINDOWS XP HOME EDITION), YOU ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO INSTALL, COPY OR OTHERWISE USE THE OS COMPONENTS AND YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA. /quote From this, I would say: No, you cannot install the downloadable .net framework on anything other than a properly licensed MS-Windows system. So, from your definition, .net is not free. From the other person's definition, which is not the same as yours, then .net is free in that it is no additional cost and little effort to download and install. This is the standard argument of libre vs. gratis within the GNU/Linux community. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
Is it legal for you to download .net without owning a windoze license and then to run it under, e.g., ODIN, wine? If not, then it is not free. Parts of the .Net Framework are Open Source. Google MONO Project for more info. Like the following statement: Mono is a software platform designed to allow developers to easily create cross platform applications. Sponsored by Xamarin, Mono is an open source implementation of Microsoft's .NET Framework based on the ECMA standards for C# and the Common Language Runtime. A growing family of solutions and an active and enthusiastic contributing community is helping position Mono to become the leading choice for development of Linux applications. But whether the .Net Framework is free, almost free, or cheap is hardly relevant to the original discussion about a successful Legacy Migration from a UNISYS Clearpath mainframe to Windows. What matters is whether the Migrated System delivers equal or better results than the Legacy System at significantly lower cost. It is my experience that: (1) Most Legacy Migration Projects are justified on the basis that the Target Environment will be really cheap, probably considering only the costs of the hardware and software licenses. (2) Cost comparisons with the Legacy Environment are really apples to oranges comparison, since the chargeback rates for the Legacy Environments are fully burdened with all the overhead of office space, power, air conditioning, system programmers, IT managers, disaster recovery etc. (3) The estimates to perform the migration are often low. A lot of IT managers think that code migrations are achieved by pushing the code thru code conversion tools. In reality this is a small part of the job. The biggest part is solving all the hundreds of little problems that arise. (4) Still, in the end, most successful migrations deliver a positive ROI, but perhaps much less than originally hoped. Also, a significant percentage of migrations fail, for all the same reasons that many other IT projects fail (incompetent management, lack of planning, etc.). John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
On 9/28/2012 at 12:25 PM, Paul Gilmartin paulgboul...@aim.com wrote: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:32:30 -0500, McKown, John wrote: ... they simply assume that everybody already has a PC and is running MS-Windows. I buy my PCs from a vendor (ZaReason) who bundles Linux (distro of your choice) instead of Windows. How does that work? I understand that MS has cooperative marketing agreements such that dealers (distributors? manufacturers?) who bundle Windows on 100% of the PCs they sell. That hasn't been strictly true for a while. For example, I bought a computer from Dell with Linux pre-installed on it a few years back. HP sells systems with Linux pre-installed as well. However, from a practical standpoint, it's almost as if those agreements are in force. Finding one of those systems isn't exactly easy. Mark Post -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
This continuing dispute reminds me, not a little, of those 13th-century controversies about whether in translation from point A to a remote point B angels pass through the intervening space. Here much depends upon one's situation at acquisition-decision time. If one wants to use AppNew and finds that he must buy SupvrOld, which he does not currently possess or judge that he needs, in order to acquire AppNew, then AppNew is not free, even though no additional charge is made for it when SupvrOld is purchased. If, on the other hand, an owner of SupvrOld learns that AppNew is now available free to owners of SupvrOld like him, he may reasonably judge that AppNew would be free to him if he wished to obtain it. Some readers will be familiar with the notion of what economists call a sunk cost, e.g., the purchase price already paid---and in practical terms irretrievable---for a copy of SupvrOld; it is essential to useful discussion of issues like this one. --jg -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-09-27 06:56, Timothy Sipples1 pisze: Michael Knigge writes: The .NET Framework is free of charge. No, that's highly misleading. Microsoft provides the core .NET Framework at no additional charge with Microsoft Windows, such as with Microsoft Windows Server. You most certainly do pay for Windows licensing and support (servers and CALs). Excuse me, what is misleading? It's obviousm that .NET framework work on Windows operating system and the windows is not free of charge. However you can have Windows (for money) and get the framework with no additional cost. That means it's FREE OF CHARGE. For example MS SQL or HIS are not free of charge - they need paid Windows, but they cost money. Similar scenarios can be found in z/OS world (free Java SDK, TEMS, Ported Tools, XML Toolkit, paid RACF, DFSORT, RMM, HSM). Everybody understand that free XML Toolkit will not work without paid z/OS. Again, what is misleading with the text above??? -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2012 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.410.984 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
In of146f19ea.fc6ac4d6-on86257a85.003eeb52-86257a85.003f0...@agfinance.com, on 09/26/2012 at 06:28 AM, Ron Wells ron.we...@slfs.com said: and too bad...but then computer world has always been a MS fan.. That seems unlikely, given when they started. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
In 5063f617.80...@bremultibank.com.pl, on 09/27/2012 at 08:45 AM, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl said: Excuse me, what is misleading? It's obviousm that .NET framework work on Windows operating system and the windows is not free of charge. However you can have Windows (for money) and get the framework with no additional cost. That means it's FREE OF CHARGE. Shouting won't make it true. If you have to pay money in order to get it then it is not free. You've admitted that you have top pay money to get it, at least legally. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT Atid/2http://patriot.net/~shmuel We don't care. We don't have to care, we're Congress. (S877: The Shut up and Eat Your spam act of 2003) -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
Shmuel Metz , Seymour J. shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote in message news:20120927125900.3d407f58...@smtp.patriot.net... In 5063f617.80...@bremultibank.com.pl, on 09/27/2012 at 08:45 AM, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl said: Excuse me, what is misleading? It's obviousm that .NET framework work on Windows operating system and the windows is not free of charge. However you can have Windows (for money) and get the framework with no additional cost. That means it's FREE OF CHARGE. Shouting won't make it true. If you have to pay money in order to get it then it is not free. You've admitted that you have top pay money to get it, at least legally. -- That way, Linux is not free, you have to buy a PC first, but before you can use a PC, you have to buy a house, buy a license from the electricity company etc. etc. If you don't have to pay to get a product, it is free of charge, regardless of whether you paid for other things before or not, and to the same company or not. Kees. For information, services and offers, please visit our web site: http://www.klm.com. This e-mail and any attachment may contain confidential and privileged material intended for the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are notified that no part of the e-mail or any attachment may be disclosed, copied or distributed, and that any other action related to this e-mail or attachment is strictly prohibited, and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail by error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, and delete this message. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij NV (KLM), its subsidiaries and/or its employees shall not be liable for the incorrect or incomplete transmission of this e-mail or any attachments, nor responsible for any delay in receipt. Koninklijke Luchtvaart Maatschappij N.V. (also known as KLM Royal Dutch Airlines) is registered in Amstelveen, The Netherlands, with registered number 33014286 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl (R.S.) writes: Excuse me, what is misleading? It's obviousm that .NET framework work on Windows operating system and the windows is not free of charge. However you can have Windows (for money) and get the framework with no additional cost. That means it's FREE OF CHARGE. For example MS SQL or HIS are not free of charge - they need paid Windows, but they cost money. Similar scenarios can be found in z/OS world (free Java SDK, TEMS, Ported Tools, XML Toolkit, paid RACF, DFSORT, RMM, HSM). Everybody understand that free XML Toolkit will not work without paid z/OS. this recent post http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2012m.html#47 Official current definition of MVS discusses IBM's original 23jun69 unbundling announcement ... starting to charge for application software, but making the case that kernel software would still be free. then after the demise of FS, the rise of the clone processors, etc ... there was decision to start charging for kernel software. Part of the transition was that base existing kernel was still free, new hardwared/device support would be free, and free stuff could not have preregisite on charged-for-stuff. The resulted in big problem when the decision was made to finally release vm370 multiprocessor support (hardware stuff so needed to be part of free base). the problem was that much of the software had already been included in my charged-for resource manager (lots of restructuring enabler for multiprocessor operation ... but not the actual direct hardware support). misc. past posts mentioning unbundling and starting to charge for software http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#unbundle misc. past posts mentioning my resource manager http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare misc. past posts mentioning FS effort http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#futuresys -- virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970 -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
a few consultants? 84,500 hrs = 42 person-yrs IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU wrote on 09/26/2012 12:06:30 AM: From: Ed Gould edgould1...@comcast.net http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231499/ Ohio_mainframe_exodus_wraps_up_in_84_500_hours?taxonomyId=68 - The information contained in this communication (including any attachments hereto) is confidential and is intended solely for the personal and confidential use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this communication in error and that any review, dissemination, copying, or unauthorized use of this information, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail, and delete the original message. Thank you -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
a few consultants? 84,500 hrs = 42 person-yrs Ohio interviewed me back in late 2008 for a role on this project. So they have been working on it for nearly 4 years. So an average team size of 11 or 12. Given that they did it with mostly State Staff, they would have had a steep learning curve going from green screen editors to Visual Studio 2008 and whatever RDBMS tools were appropriate. So they did pretty well IMO. I actually think it is a smart strategy to do such projects mostly in-house, augmented only somewhat with contract experts to tackle the problems as they arise. Now that it is done, the in-house staff will have a sense of accomplishment and will own the result. When such projects are outsourced to consultants, there is always resentment among the in-house staff that get the result dumped on them to support. Ohio has avoided this problem. Also, since this was a COBOL/PACBASE to COBOL migration, the tribal knowledge of the old main framers is not lost. The challenge now is to pass this knowledge onto the new generation before the old guys are gone. Lastly, by going with the Fujitsu Tools they have opened a door for future growth. Unlike the more commonly used Micro Focus NetExpress tools, the Fujitsu NetCOBOL compiler is a fully CLR compliant language. So it now becomes easy to revise and extend the applications using VB.Net and/or C#. Until very recently, the competing Micro Focus Enterprise Server environment was a dead-end to itself, extensible only with difficulty using the C language. I understand that Micro Focus has been working hard to address this deficiency. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-09-27 17:01, Joel C. Ewing pisze: On 09/27/2012 08:52 AM, Vernooij, CP - SPLXM wrote: Shmuel Metz , Seymour J. shmuel+...@patriot.net wrote in message news:20120927125900.3d407f58...@smtp.patriot.net... In 5063f617.80...@bremultibank.com.pl, on 09/27/2012 at 08:45 AM, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.pl said: Excuse me, what is misleading? It's obviousm that .NET framework work on Windows operating system and the windows is not free of charge. However you can have Windows (for money) and get the framework with no additional cost. That means it's FREE OF CHARGE. Shouting won't make it true. If you have to pay money in order to get it then it is not free. You've admitted that you have top pay money to get it, at least legally. -- That way, Linux is not free, you have to buy a PC first, but before you can use a PC, you have to buy a house, buy a license from the electricity company etc. etc. If you don't have to pay to get a product, it is free of charge, regardless of whether you paid for other things before or not, and to the same company or not. Kees. Whenever one compares costs, there has to be agreement on the context and the starting point - whether one is talking about Total Cost of Ownership or just incremental costs. We DON'T COMPARE COSTS HERE. We (me and others) claim that .NET framework is free of charge. Having it does not involve any additional cost. Is M$ solution cost effective? That's completely another story. IMHO it's not for enterprises. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2012 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.410.984 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
Ed Gould wrote: Ohio_mainframe_exodus_wraps_up_in_84_500_hours Quote: Most of the applications on the mainframe were written in Pacbase, an old IBM programming language that became increasingly difficult to support as veteran programmers retired. Very disturbing. They moved to .NET environment on windoze platforms. Is that movement not more expensive due to licensing? The Public Safety Unisys mainframe had proven itself to be dependable, highly available, secure, and relatively efficient from a performance perspective. yet, they moved OFF it... because of costs and age of workforce... It is indeed more disturbing... Just Curious Question: what operating system does that Unisys ClearPath Dorado mainframe run? Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
Very disturbing. They moved to .NET environment on windoze platforms. Is that movement not more expensive due to licensing? The .NET Framework is free of charge. The IDE from Microsoft is quite expensive (Visual Studio, starting at somewhat about $500 up to $8.000 if I remember correctly). But there are also free alternatives like Sharp Develop, that became a really good IDE. Furthermore many tools for the .NET Framework are freely available (for example NUnit for Unit-Testing). So if the movement is more expensive or not depends on the size of the development team and the requirements of the developers. Bye, Michael -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
Don't botherthese clowns have there heads up there ...no real knowledge of systems .. From: Elardus Engelbrecht elardus.engelbre...@sita.co.za To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date: 09/26/2012 02:14 AM Subject:Re: Another Light goes out Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Ed Gould wrote: Ohio_mainframe_exodus_wraps_up_in_84_500_hours Quote: Most of the applications on the mainframe were written in Pacbase, an old IBM programming language that became increasingly difficult to support as veteran programmers retired. Very disturbing. They moved to .NET environment on windoze platforms. Is that movement not more expensive due to licensing? The Public Safety Unisys mainframe had proven itself to be dependable, highly available, secure, and relatively efficient from a performance perspective. yet, they moved OFF it... because of costs and age of workforce... It is indeed more disturbing... Just Curious Question: what operating system does that Unisys ClearPath Dorado mainframe run? Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Email Disclaimer This E-mail contains confidential information belonging to the sender, which may be legally privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity addressed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the E-mail or attached files is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
and too bad...but then computer world has always been a MS fan.. From: Michael Knigge michael.kni...@set-software.de To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Date: 09/26/2012 02:58 AM Subject:Re: Another Light goes out Sent by:IBM Mainframe Discussion List IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Very disturbing. They moved to .NET environment on windoze platforms. Is that movement not more expensive due to licensing? The .NET Framework is free of charge. The IDE from Microsoft is quite expensive (Visual Studio, starting at somewhat about $500 up to $8.000 if I remember correctly). But there are also free alternatives like Sharp Develop, that became a really good IDE. Furthermore many tools for the .NET Framework are freely available (for example NUnit for Unit-Testing). So if the movement is more expensive or not depends on the size of the development team and the requirements of the developers. Bye, Michael -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- Email Disclaimer This E-mail contains confidential information belonging to the sender, which may be legally privileged information. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity addressed above. If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the E-mail or attached files is strictly prohibited. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
Unisys Dorado class mainframes can run either OS/2200 (Sperry Univac linage) or MCP (Burroughs A series linage). This is a configurable setting at the hardware partition level. /Brad -Original Message- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Elardus Engelbrecht Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:15 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Another Light goes out Ed Gould wrote: Ohio_mainframe_exodus_wraps_up_in_84_500_hours Quote: Most of the applications on the mainframe were written in Pacbase, an old IBM programming language that became increasingly difficult to support as veteran programmers retired. Very disturbing. They moved to .NET environment on windoze platforms. Is that movement not more expensive due to licensing? The Public Safety Unisys mainframe had proven itself to be dependable, highly available, secure, and relatively efficient from a performance perspective. yet, they moved OFF it... because of costs and age of workforce... It is indeed more disturbing... Just Curious Question: what operating system does that Unisys ClearPath Dorado mainframe run? Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -This e-mail and any attachments may contain CONFIDENTIAL information, including PROTECTED HEALTH INFORMATION. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or disclosure of this information is STRICTLY PROHIBITED; you are requested to delete this e-mail and any attachments, notify the sender immediately, and notify the LabCorp Privacy Officer at privacyoffi...@labcorp.com or call (877) 23-HIPAA / (877) 234-4722. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-09-26 09:14, Elardus Engelbrecht pisze: Ed Gould wrote: Ohio_mainframe_exodus_wraps_up_in_84_500_hours Quote: Most of the applications on the mainframe were written in Pacbase, an old IBM programming language that became increasingly difficult to support as veteran programmers retired. Very disturbing. They moved to .NET environment on windoze platforms. Is that movement not more expensive due to licensing? The Public Safety Unisys mainframe had proven itself to be dependable, highly available, secure, and relatively efficient from a performance perspective. yet, they moved OFF it... because of costs and age of workforce... It is indeed more disturbing... Just Curious Question: what operating system does that Unisys ClearPath Dorado mainframe run? AFAIK OS2200, it is proprietary system from Unisys, previously named EXEC. Note, maybe this is mainframe, but it's NOT IBM-like mainframe. Not a clone, like Amdahl, Hitachi or Fujitsu. And it's really unpopular and fading. -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Treść tej wiadomości może zawierać informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wyłącznie do użytku służbowego adresata. Odbiorcą może być jedynie jej adresat z wyłączeniem dostępu osób trzecich. Jeżeli nie jesteś adresatem niniejszej wiadomości lub pracownikiem upoważnionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, że jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne działanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i może być karalne. Jeżeli otrzymałeś tę wiadomość omyłkowo, prosimy niezwłocznie zawiadomić nadawcę wysyłając odpowiedź oraz trwale usunąć tę wiadomość włączając w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sąd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydział Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sądowego, nr rejestru przedsiębiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Według stanu na dzień 01.01.2012 r. kapitał zakładowy BRE Banku SA (w całości wpłacony) wynosi 168.410.984 złotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
On 09/26/2012 02:14 AM, Elardus Engelbrecht wrote: Ed Gould wrote: Ohio_mainframe_exodus_wraps_up_in_84_500_hours Quote: Most of the applications on the mainframe were written in Pacbase, an old IBM programming language that became increasingly difficult to support as veteran programmers retired. Very disturbing. They moved to .NET environment on windoze platforms. Is that movement not more expensive due to licensing? The Public Safety Unisys mainframe had proven itself to be dependable, highly available, secure, and relatively efficient from a performance perspective. yet, they moved OFF it... because of costs and age of workforce... It is indeed more disturbing... Just Curious Question: what operating system does that Unisys ClearPath Dorado mainframe run? Groete / Greetings Elardus Engelbrecht Pacbase was not really an old IBM language as stated, but an old programming language from CGI Systems with roots going back to 1967, which was only acquired by IBM in 1993. Pacbase compiled into COBOL code, which no doubt simplified creating support for multiple platforms. Reading between the lines, I suspect IBM may have acquired this to create or better support a version compatible with IBM hardware, perhaps with the hope that would encourage user migration from other platforms. On-line references suggest that in 2006 IBM announced a decision to phase out Pacbase support after 2015, so perhaps IBM found they were instead just supporting non-IBM hardware and encouraging users to stay on non-IBM hardware. If the termination of Pacbase support was indeed imminent, that may have been the real reason that forced the migration decision by Ohio. -- Joel C. Ewing,Bentonville, AR jcew...@acm.org -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-09-26 16:01, Ed Gould pisze: ELARDUS: I am NOT a UNISYS person. But from reading a little I think they can simulate CICS (supposedly programs run unchanged). Can you provide any reference for the above? -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e-mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2012 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.410.984 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:09 PM, R.S. r.skoru...@bremultibank.com.plwrote: W dniu 2012-09-26 16:01, Ed Gould pisze: ELARDUS: I am NOT a UNISYS person. But from reading a little I think they can simulate CICS (supposedly programs run unchanged). Can you provide any reference for the above? Confusion between UniKix (now Clerity) and Unisys? -- zMan -- I've got a mainframe and I'm not afraid to use it -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
W dniu 2012-09-26 16:01, Ed Gould pisze: ELARDUS: I am NOT a UNISYS person. But from reading a little I think they can simulate CICS (supposedly programs run unchanged). Can you provide any reference for the above? Confusion between UniKix (now Clerity) and Unisys? I can think of two other possibilities: (1) In February 2011, UNISYS started marketing a Cloud Based Application Modernization service. But I don't think this involves anything to emulate IBM CICS. (2) The Washington State Dept of Licensing (i.e. their DMV) did a migration from a UNISYS Clearpath environment to Windows DotNet back in 2003-2005. This migration used the same Fujitsu COBOL compiler as was used by Ohio. To do this migration we leveraged the Fujitsu product that provided CICS API emulation. So the transformation was two stage: first make the UNISYS Online COBOL code look like CICS, then migrate using the CICS emulation. While this worked, it introduced unnecessary complexity and was later simplified to eliminate the CICS code. I was the technical architect for this project. John -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
R.S. No I cannot. I remember reading about unisys stepping on IBM toes when a company wanted to get rid of the mainframe. It was a couple of years ago and UNISYS was heralding the fact that they could do this. No details other than it took the source and either compiled it or ran it on their system and that it could emulate CICS. I though that was rather a kick in the face to IBM but hey if CICS people could live with it that was their problem. The one thing I did remember was that CICS was not marked as a copyright nor trademarked in the column. Sorry but I do a lot of reading and did not send the list URL. Ed On Sep 26, 2012, at 1:09 PM, R.S. wrote: W dniu 2012-09-26 16:01, Ed Gould pisze: ELARDUS: I am NOT a UNISYS person. But from reading a little I think they can simulate CICS (supposedly programs run unchanged). Can you provide any reference for the above? -- Radoslaw Skorupka Lodz, Poland -- Tre tej wiadomoci moe zawiera informacje prawnie chronione Banku przeznaczone wycznie do uytku subowego adresata. Odbiorc moe by jedynie jej adresat z wyczeniem dostpu osób trzecich. Jeeli nie jeste adresatem niniejszej wiadomoci lub pracownikiem upowanionym do jej przekazania adresatowi, informujemy, e jej rozpowszechnianie, kopiowanie, rozprowadzanie lub inne dziaanie o podobnym charakterze jest prawnie zabronione i moe by karalne. Jeeli otrzymae t wiadomo omykowo, prosimy niezwocznie zawiadomi nadawc wysyajc odpowied oraz trwale usun t wiadomo wczajc w to wszelkie jej kopie wydrukowane lub zapisane na dysku. This e-mail may contain legally privileged information of the Bank and is intended solely for business use of the addressee. This e- mail may only be received by the addressee and may not be disclosed to any third parties. If you are not the intended addressee of this e-mail or the employee authorised to forward it to the addressee, be advised that any dissemination, copying, distribution or any other similar activity is legally prohibited and may be punishable. If you received this e-mail by mistake please advise the sender immediately by using the reply facility in your e-mail software and delete permanently this e-mail including any copies of it either printed or saved to hard drive. BRE Bank SA, 00-950 Warszawa, ul. Senatorska 18, tel. +48 (22) 829 00 00, fax +48 (22) 829 00 33, www.brebank.pl, e-mail: i...@brebank.pl Sd Rejonowy dla m. st. Warszawy XII Wydzia Gospodarczy Krajowego Rejestru Sdowego, nr rejestru przedsibiorców KRS 025237, NIP: 526-021-50-88. Wedug stanu na dzie 01.01.2012 r. kapita zakadowy BRE Banku SA (w caoci wpacony) wynosi 168.410.984 zotych. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Another Light goes out
Michael Knigge writes: The .NET Framework is free of charge. No, that's highly misleading. Microsoft provides the core .NET Framework at no additional charge with Microsoft Windows, such as with Microsoft Windows Server. You most certainly do pay for Windows licensing and support (servers and CALs). Timothy Sipples Consulting Enterprise IT Architect (Based in Singapore) E-Mail: sipp...@sg.ibm.com -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
