Re: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
The DT I am discussing has no clear problem to solve, the appointment is
not clear, I have been asking for a WG but only DT was done. The DT has no
milestones and no clear objectives, is it a DT or a WG. We don't need the
DT to adopt or agree on any real draft effort submitted, it is the
community that adopt or disagrees the output of any DT.
AB
On Saturday, October 12, 2013, Melinda Shore wrote:
On Oct 12, 2013 6:51 AM, Adrian Farrel
adr...@olddog.co.ukjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'adr...@olddog.co.uk');
wrote:
I don't understand your assertion that there is no procedure in the IETF
to
support the existence of a Design Team.
I'd be sorry to see this discussion dragged down a procedural rathole.
Melinda
RE: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
Abdussalam Baryun said: I am part of the community design team as well because I participate with community more than the private hidden groups. I think that the draft is a true work open to IETF. I still did not get a reply to my request to know what is the DT authority, very strange name without any procedure in IETF, please explain, I don't understand your assertion that there is no procedure in the IETF to support the existence of a Design Team. Please read section 6.5 of RFC 2418 and the email from Lars and respond if you still believe that there is no procedure in the IETF to support the existence of a Design Team. Adrian
RE: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
On Oct 12, 2013 6:51 AM, Adrian Farrel adr...@olddog.co.uk wrote: I don't understand your assertion that there is no procedure in the IETF to support the existence of a Design Team. I'd be sorry to see this discussion dragged down a procedural rathole. Melinda
Re: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
Hi, I'm part of the design team. SM has written this document to begin a discussion with the broader IETF. The document does not have the consensus of the design team, and it is therefore obviously not a recommendation by the design team. Lars On Oct 10, 2013, at 20:10, S Moonesamy sm+i...@elandsys.com wrote: Hi Jari, Here's is a draft about improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF. The draft builds upon the ISOC work, proposing adjustments and additional efforts, with the goal of enabling more sustained and active participation by contributors from under-represented regions. In a blog article ( http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ ), it is mentioned that: The design team will present their recommendations to the community, and engage in the discussion. Recommendations with community support will be taken forward. The draft only makes suggestions instead of recommendations. I am copying this message to ietf@ietf.org so that the community can comment about the draft. Regards, S. Moonesamydraft-ddt-fellowship-03.txt signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
I am part of the community design team as well because I participate with community more than the private hidden groups. I think that the draft is a true work open to IETF. I still did not get a reply to my request to know what is the DT authority, very strange name without any procedure in IETF, please explain, AB On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Eggert, Lars l...@netapp.com wrote: Hi, I'm part of the design team. SM has written this document to begin a discussion with the broader IETF. The document does not have the consensus of the design team, and it is therefore obviously not a recommendation by the design team. Lars On Oct 10, 2013, at 20:10, S Moonesamy sm+i...@elandsys.com wrote: Hi Jari, Here's is a draft about improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF. The draft builds upon the ISOC work, proposing adjustments and additional efforts, with the goal of enabling more sustained and active participation by contributors from under-represented regions. In a blog article ( http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ ), it is mentioned that: The design team will present their recommendations to the community, and engage in the discussion. Recommendations with community support will be taken forward. The draft only makes suggestions instead of recommendations. I am copying this message to ietf@ietf.org so that the community can comment about the draft. Regards, S. Moonesamydraft-ddt-fellowship-03.txt
Re: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
Hi, On Oct 11, 2013, at 10:41, Abdussalam Baryun abdussalambar...@gmail.com wrote: I am part of the community design team as well because I participate with community more than the private hidden groups. I think that the draft is a true work open to IETF. I haven't said that anything to the contrary. I am simply pointing out that the draft is not a recommendation by the design team (which we will still make at some point in the near future, hopefully.) I still did not get a reply to my request to know what is the DT authority, very strange name without any procedure in IETF, please explain, Jari formed the design team in order to collect the issues that people have raised, organize them and then propose a few recommendations to the broader community. The design team has no authority, all we will do is propose some actions to the broader community, which will then need to get consensus there. Nothing is stopping anyone outside the design team from also thinking about these issues and making proposals. Also, the IETF has a long history of using design teams in working groups. We also use small, focused groups for other purposes, such as BOF planning. Whatever these groups still needs to get consensus in the broader community. Lars signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
RE: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
I am part of the community design team as well ... as being the coauthor of a MANET RFC! Lloyd Wood http://sat-net.com/L.Wood/
Re: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
Hi, On Oct 11, 2013, at 14:43, Jari Arkko jari.ar...@piuha.net wrote: I do have a question for Lars though. What are your opinions on this? (You said that there is no consensus, but I'd like to hear also your thoughts.) so one key question is what influence the IETF actually has on an ISOC program. We can certainly state our wishes, but my belief is that it's ISOC's program in the end, and they can basically chose to run it as they see fit. That doesn't come out in the draft at all. Another issue I have with the the draft is written with the implied understanding that the program should fund the repeated attendance of residents of under-represented regions who are actively participating in some sort of way. It's not clear to me that this is really what would be best in terms of increasing organizational diversity over time. I wouldn't want to fund the same people over and over; I'd much rather bring in new people all the time in the hopes of spreading the word about the IETF widely and hoping that some folks will end up in roles where they can occasionally attend on their own dime. I'd like to be able to bring in other under-represented groups (students, academics, women, etc.) We can certainly have a discussion about what is best; my point is that the draft has already decided that one approach is the way to go. I also have a few issues with the suggestions it makes: Section 4.1 requires that an applicant needs to already have been a participant in the IETF. That seems excessive. For returning fellows, some sort of engagement in the IETF after a while would be nice, but I can see valid cases for supporting someone's repeated attendance who isn't contributing in a very visible role. Also, I question the possibility to quantify and compare someone's impact of IETF involvement. And again, there are others than resident of a country in an under-represented region who we might want to bring in, and we probably don't need to fund the attendance of employees of large vendors who happen to be residents of under-represented regions. The evaluation panel in Section 4.2 is therefore also problematic. And I wouldn't want to blindly prioritize people who have been contributing over time to real IETF work - we need to keep the flexibility of bringing in someone new who has high potential even if it means that someone who has been funded to attend in the past isn't going to be covered. But my main issue is that the draft sounds like its trying to take over and redefine an ISOC program, which I don't think the IETF can or should do. The ISOC program has a purpose, a history and at least from my perspective is working pretty well with the budget it has available. I'm not sure we can actually improve it much. Lars signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
we need to keep the flexibility of bringing in someone new agree But my main issue is that the draft sounds like its trying to take over and redefine an ISOC program, which I don't think the IETF can or should do. The ISOC program has a purpose, a history and at least from my perspective is working pretty well with the budget it has available. I'm not sure we can actually improve it much. agree, of course. at best we can provide input. but it really is an ISOC program. Jari
Re: Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
I did not like the change of the title which was suggested in diversity list. the first title was related to IETF, because we need to attract more other regions in IETF or to facilitate the improve of other region's participation. The draft's solution was to recommend fellowship (should not be the only marketing way), which made it distract its real value. I suggest to see how this fellowship is coordinated with IETF and how much it attracts (real results needed), this will help the program managers to know how IETF sees the program from the community point of view (not management of ietf or management of the program). AB On Friday, October 11, 2013, Jari Arkko wrote: we need to keep the flexibility of bringing in someone new agree But my main issue is that the draft sounds like its trying to take over and redefine an ISOC program, which I don't think the IETF can or should do. The ISOC program has a purpose, a history and at least from my perspective is working pretty well with the budget it has available. I'm not sure we can actually improve it much. agree, of course. at best we can provide input. but it really is an ISOC program. Jari
Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF
Hi Jari, Here's is a draft about improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF. The draft builds upon the ISOC work, proposing adjustments and additional efforts, with the goal of enabling more sustained and active participation by contributors from under-represented regions. In a blog article ( http://www.ietf.org/blog/2013/04/diversity/ ), it is mentioned that: The design team will present their recommendations to the community, and engage in the discussion. Recommendations with community support will be taken forward. The draft only makes suggestions instead of recommendations. I am copying this message to ietf@ietf.org so that the community can comment about the draft. Regards, S. Moonesamy S. Moonesamy Expires: April 13, 2014 October 10, 2013 Improving the ISOC Fellowship programme to attract people from under-represented regions into the IETF draft-ddt-fellowship-03 1. Introduction The IETF Chair set up a Diversity Design Team in July, 2013 to understand the diversity problem and suggest solutions to make the IETF more inclusive. There is already an ISOC Fellowship programme to the IETF for participants from emerging regions. The Fellowship to the IETF helps to increase the diversity of inputs to, and global awareness of the IETF's vital work. This document builds upon the ISOC work, proposing adjustments and additional efforts, with the goal of enabling more sustained and active participation by contributors from under-represented regions. Section 2 lists the objectives of the existing ISOC Fellowship programme and the selection criteria. The current programme does help new participants to establish an initial face-to-face contact. However, long-term benefit requires helping these participants to engage in the full range of IETF interactions. The most effective way to contribute to the IETF is through on-going active participation and by reviewing and commenting about working group drafts. There are suggestions in Section 4 to better align the ISOC Fellowship programme with the expectations of the IETF Community by having selection criteria that encourages active IETF participation, and by having an evaluation panel with the expertise to evaluate IETF contributions. 2. Existing support for participants from emerging regions 2.1. Objectives of the ISOC Fellowship programme The Internet Society's efforts are encompassed by a basic Fellowship Programme and a Returning Fellowship Programme. The Internet Society has provided significant financial support given that attendance by technologists from emerging and developing economies is currently limited [FEL]. It is considered that actually attending a face-to- face IETF meeting promotes a stronger understanding of the standards process, lays the foundation for active involvement in IETF work, and facilitates personal networking with others that have similar technical interests [FEL]. Expires April 13, 2014 [Page 1] S. Moonesamy Attracting peopleOctober 10, 2013 The main purpose [FEL] of the ISOC Fellowship programme is to: - Raise global awareness about the IETF and its work. - Foster greater understanding of, and participation in, the work of the IETF by technologists from emerging and developing economies. - Provide an opportunity for networking with individuals from around the world with similar technical interests. - Identify and foster potential future leaders from emerging and developing economies - Demonstrate the Internet community's commitment to fostering greater global participation in Internet Forums such as the IETF. The goals of the ISOC Returning fellowship programme [RET] are to: - Provide an opportunity for highly committed former Fellows to return to the IETF to advance specific standards work. - More fully integrate technologists from emerging and developing economies into the IETF. - Advance the technical leadership potential of individuals from emerging and developing economies. - Provide immediate value to a working group by participating in scribing the working group meeting and contributing to the meeting minutes. 2.2. Selection criteria for the ISOC Fellowship programme Some of the requirements [SEL] for qualifying for ISOC Fellowship programme are: - Hold a university-level computer science, information technology, or similar degree, or can demonstrate similar and relevant
