Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Hi Jordi, On Friday 24 March 2006 06:10, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Not really. If you look to the recent sponsors, the current one and the next one, they are all European companies, hosting IETF in North America. Actually it can be presented in the other way around, as they host here, 50% of the attendees are getting indirectly subsidized by those sponsors decision to host here because their travel expenses are lower. So the cost for the participants from the rest of the world is higher. I do not agree that the cost for rest of the world participants is necessarily higher when me meet in US. It is usually cheaper for me to travel from EU to US than to travel from EU to EU. For example I paid 350 euros and 460 euros to go from France to Washington DC and San Francisco, respectively. That's more or less the minimum I am used to pay for intra-EU trips. So it rather seems that the cost of intercontinental flights is low when there is a lot of different carriers (competition!) on the hub-to-hub intercontinental trunk of the trip. My two cents. -- julien ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Hi Julien, I guess is a question of planning. I tend to book my flights at least 3 months ahead. Then a flight Madrid-Europe-Madrid, for example, could be so law as 80 Euros (replace Europe with Munich, London, Paris, Brussels, or any other preferred EU destination). For the same period (a week, including Saturday night), Madrid-Dallas-Madrid is about 550 Euros. This typically works also just purchasing 5-6 weeks ahead of the flight departure. Regards, Jordi De: Julien Laganier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:13:40 +0200 Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions Hi Jordi, On Friday 24 March 2006 06:10, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Not really. If you look to the recent sponsors, the current one and the next one, they are all European companies, hosting IETF in North America. Actually it can be presented in the other way around, as they host here, 50% of the attendees are getting indirectly subsidized by those sponsors decision to host here because their travel expenses are lower. So the cost for the participants from the rest of the world is higher. I do not agree that the cost for rest of the world participants is necessarily higher when me meet in US. It is usually cheaper for me to travel from EU to US than to travel from EU to EU. For example I paid 350 euros and 460 euros to go from France to Washington DC and San Francisco, respectively. That's more or less the minimum I am used to pay for intra-EU trips. So it rather seems that the cost of intercontinental flights is low when there is a lot of different carriers (competition!) on the hub-to-hub intercontinental trunk of the trip. My two cents. -- julien ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Jordi, You are speaking about low cost flights. I am sure they are readily available from/to any capital like Madrid, but what about other places. When I want to go from a secondary french city to a secondary city in germany without over the week-end stay (say monday-thursday) the prices can start at 500 euros or more, even if booked three months in advance. What I tried to say is that w.r.t. price, the continent location seems to matter more or less the same than the number of airlines going there. A major city with lot of connecting flights (Minneapolis ;) is much more cheaper to flight to than a secondary city. You seems to agree since you mentioned below European flights between European capitals. --julien On Wednesday 29 March 2006 14:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Julien, I guess is a question of planning. I tend to book my flights at least 3 months ahead. Then a flight Madrid-Europe-Madrid, for example, could be so law as 80 Euros (replace Europe with Munich, London, Paris, Brussels, or any other preferred EU destination). For the same period (a week, including Saturday night), Madrid-Dallas-Madrid is about 550 Euros. This typically works also just purchasing 5-6 weeks ahead of the flight departure. Regards, Jordi De: Julien Laganier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:13:40 +0200 Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions Hi Jordi, On Friday 24 March 2006 06:10, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Not really. If you look to the recent sponsors, the current one and the next one, they are all European companies, hosting IETF in North America. Actually it can be presented in the other way around, as they host here, 50% of the attendees are getting indirectly subsidized by those sponsors decision to host here because their travel expenses are lower. So the cost for the participants from the rest of the world is higher. I do not agree that the cost for rest of the world participants is necessarily higher when me meet in US. It is usually cheaper for me to travel from EU to US than to travel from EU to EU. For example I paid 350 euros and 460 euros to go from France to Washington DC and San Francisco, respectively. That's more or less the minimum I am used to pay for intra-EU trips. So it rather seems that the cost of intercontinental flights is low when there is a lot of different carriers (competition!) on the hub-to-hub intercontinental trunk of the trip. My two cents. -- julien ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- julien -- julien ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Hi Julien, Well, that's not the case in Spain. If instead of Madrid I'm in small city like Valencia, Murcia, Bilbao, etc., typically the cost different will be only 10-15 Euros more. The companies make the money from the big hop, and if necessary subsidize part of the small one to sell more seats. At the end in any case is not so easy, because it will depend on agreements among airlines, from and to, etc. For example, Minneapolis is more expensive for me, because I need to fly to Amsterdam to get a cheaper fare. Instead Latinamerican cities or a couple of US locations, can be below 400 Euros and even a single hop from Madrid. Definitively, from Europe, for me seems the most expensive Australia, then Asia Pacific/Africa, but may be is only the case of if the from is Spain, because typically I will need to fly first to Amsterdam, London, Paris or Frankfurt. Regards, Jordi De: Julien Laganier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 15:52:09 +0200 Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions Jordi, You are speaking about low cost flights. I am sure they are readily available from/to any capital like Madrid, but what about other places. When I want to go from a secondary french city to a secondary city in germany without over the week-end stay (say monday-thursday) the prices can start at 500 euros or more, even if booked three months in advance. What I tried to say is that w.r.t. price, the continent location seems to matter more or less the same than the number of airlines going there. A major city with lot of connecting flights (Minneapolis ;) is much more cheaper to flight to than a secondary city. You seems to agree since you mentioned below European flights between European capitals. --julien On Wednesday 29 March 2006 14:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Hi Julien, I guess is a question of planning. I tend to book my flights at least 3 months ahead. Then a flight Madrid-Europe-Madrid, for example, could be so law as 80 Euros (replace Europe with Munich, London, Paris, Brussels, or any other preferred EU destination). For the same period (a week, including Saturday night), Madrid-Dallas-Madrid is about 550 Euros. This typically works also just purchasing 5-6 weeks ahead of the flight departure. Regards, Jordi De: Julien Laganier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Wed, 29 Mar 2006 14:13:40 +0200 Para: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions Hi Jordi, On Friday 24 March 2006 06:10, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: Not really. If you look to the recent sponsors, the current one and the next one, they are all European companies, hosting IETF in North America. Actually it can be presented in the other way around, as they host here, 50% of the attendees are getting indirectly subsidized by those sponsors decision to host here because their travel expenses are lower. So the cost for the participants from the rest of the world is higher. I do not agree that the cost for rest of the world participants is necessarily higher when me meet in US. It is usually cheaper for me to travel from EU to US than to travel from EU to EU. For example I paid 350 euros and 460 euros to go from France to Washington DC and San Francisco, respectively. That's more or less the minimum I am used to pay for intra-EU trips. So it rather seems that the cost of intercontinental flights is low when there is a lot of different carriers (competition!) on the hub-to-hub intercontinental trunk of the trip. My two cents. -- julien ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- julien -- julien ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Brian E Carpenter wrote: Keith Moore wrote: It will also be a more open process. Today, in my opinion, having to negotiate with each possible sponsor in secret, is a broken concept, and against our openness. I'm a lot more concerned about openness in IETF protocol development. some kinds of negotiations really do need to be done in secret. IMHO, having protocol engineers who know next to nothing about meeting logistics try to dictate such terms is a broken concept. Amen to that. This is a balancing act. How much a host/sponsor is willing to contribute depends on many factors, and I don't believe there is any single formula that will cover all cases. So I think each case will be a special case for a long time to come, and BTW we do have people paid to work on this for us now. Brian Each venue's costs and each Host/Sponsor's ability and willingness to make an additional contribution to a meeting's cost is different. The meeting room costs for Vancouver, Dallas and Montreal were/are zero. The meeting room costs for Paris were well north of 150.000 euros which if that had not been picked up by sponsors could have resulted in a registration fee increase of about $150 per person. Fortunately, we have had such Hosts and Sponsors. It may not always be the case. Ray IAD ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
RE: Making IETF happening in different regions
Title: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions Definitively, from Europe, for me seems the most expensive Australia, thenAsia Pacific/Africa... ... and for those of us on the "outskirts" of Europe, the ratio in flight prices to the US as compared to the EU can easily exceed a factor of two. However, other expenses may be larger in Europe due to the strength of the Euro. Y(J)S ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Title: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions these days, many IETFer are from asia. Asia cities also should be a choice. actually, the accommodations in many asia cities are very cheap while the flight price to ASIA is not much different from the price of flight to america or europe. we can eat better in asia. Yao Jiankang - Original Message - From: Yaakov Stein To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; ietf@ietf.org Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:00 PM Subject: RE: Making IETF happening in different regions Definitively, from Europe, for me seems the most expensive Australia, thenAsia Pacific/Africa... ... and for those of us on the "outskirts" of Europe, the ratio in flight prices to the US as compared to the EU can easily exceed a factor of two. However, other expenses may be larger in Europe due to the strength of the Euro. Y(J)S ___Ietf mailing listIetf@ietf.orghttps://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Keith Moore wrote: It will also be a more open process. Today, in my opinion, having to negotiate with each possible sponsor in secret, is a broken concept, and against our openness. I'm a lot more concerned about openness in IETF protocol development. some kinds of negotiations really do need to be done in secret. IMHO, having protocol engineers who know next to nothing about meeting logistics try to dictate such terms is a broken concept. Amen to that. This is a balancing act. How much a host/sponsor is willing to contribute depends on many factors, and I don't believe there is any single formula that will cover all cases. So I think each case will be a special case for a long time to come, and BTW we do have people paid to work on this for us now. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Sponsors and influence (Re: Making IETF happening in different regions)
Here is a guess at the rule we should impose: A sponsor donating a sufficiently large amount may have a small booth for the sale of a single product that is a) unannounced or has been announced within the last [6] months, and b) appropriate for purchase and use by individuals. I really think any attempt to write a rule is doomed. A guideline or principle would be OK. Such as It's OK to sell really cool geeky stuff. Suggestions for more formal language welcome. Brian ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 11:48:19PM -0600, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: The results is also better for all (even participants), because the logistics and local-planning is done more coherently. I think there's some unfair handwaving in this thread. One option however would be to seek 'partnerships' between vendors and the IETF that span more than one meeting. Unless that impacted the perceived 'neutrality' of the IETF and its standardisation processes. Tim ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Sponsors and influence (Re: Making IETF happening in different regions)
Tim Chown wrote: On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 11:48:19PM -0600, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: The results is also better for all (even participants), because the logistics and local-planning is done more coherently. I think there's some unfair handwaving in this thread. One option however would be to seek 'partnerships' between vendors and the IETF that span more than one meeting. Unless that impacted the perceived 'neutrality' of the IETF and its standardisation processes. I suspect that this would indeed be a question. One of the services that ISOC provides to the IETF is a layer of indirection for sponsors; they give money into a pool administered by ISOC (and get a seat on the ISOC AC in return), but the procedures make it pretty clear that they do not get any direct influence over the IETF standardization process that way. Among the issues Ray could want to calculate would be: - the number of new ISOC Platinum members needed to cover the costs currently borne by the hosts - the likely income/percieved influence tradeoff of sponsoring the IETF in smaller chunks (a cookie sponsor, a printer sponsor, a connectivity sponsor, a WLAN sponsor and a router sponsor? some of these could be 1 meeting long; others could last no longer than a single cookie break) - what other creative options there are for cost/benefit tradeoffs One option I do NOT want to consider (and which the 770 stand in the lobby kind of dented a little) is to add a tradeshow to the IETF meeting. The next steps in that progression have been travelled before - soon, the tradeshow has a standards adjunct, not the other way around. Harald ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Sponsors and influence (Re: Making IETF happening in different regions)
Harald Alvestrand wrote: One option however would be to seek 'partnerships' between vendors and the IETF that span more than one meeting. Unless that impacted the perceived 'neutrality' of the IETF and its standardisation processes. I suspect that this would indeed be a question. To invoke a particularly apt cliche punchline: we are merely haggling about price. The IETF's long-term use of hosts already creates these partnerships, albeit one meeting at a time. Hosts can enjoy very considerable marketing benefits during the IETF. Moving to a sponsorship model permits the IETF to enjoy continue to enjoy the financial benefits that we rely on from hosts, but permits us to do vastly more rational (and cost-effective) meeting logistics planning. It well might also permit us to obtain enough funds to reduce attendance fees. By way of a simple goal, it might allow meeting fees to be reduced to cover only meeting costs, rather than also used for funding the basic Secretariat. One of the services that ISOC provides to the IETF is a layer of indirection for sponsors; they give money into a pool administered by ISOC (and get a seat on the ISOC AC in return), but the procedures make it pretty clear that they do not get any direct influence over the IETF standardization process that way. From a marketing standpoint, Hosts currently get a significantly more powerful position than you just described. As for whose name is on the sponsorship check, I don't care. Among the issues Ray could want to calculate would be: sounds like some good examples. One option I do NOT want to consider (and which the 770 stand in the lobby kind of dented a little) is to add a tradeshow to the IETF meeting. The next steps in that progression have been travelled before - soon, the tradeshow has a standards adjunct, not the other way around. Yes, this is an important danger to pay close attention to. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking http://bbiw.net ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Sponsors and influence (Re: Making IETF happening in different regions)
One option however would be to seek 'partnerships' between vendors and the IETF that span more than one meeting. Unless that impacted the perceived 'neutrality' of the IETF and its standardisation processes. I suspect that this would indeed be a question. To invoke a particularly apt cliche punchline: we are merely haggling about price. ah yes, but perhaps the point of that joke is that there really is a difference between a novelty and a commodity. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Sponsors and influence (Re: Making IETF happening in different regions)
The wifi phone booth in Japan [...] wildly popular with attendees, was actually at APRICOT in Kyoto, but I know it all blends together after a while :-) At $50, vs the retail price of around $350, it was a loss-leader give-away. I think we'd be happy to get more free stuff like that :-) Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 GSM: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Fri, 24 Mar 2006, Dave Crocker wrote: Harald Alvestrand wrote: One option I do NOT want to consider (and which the 770 stand in the lobby kind of dented a little) is to add a tradeshow to the IETF meeting. Thinking about this further, I am struck by the fact that the 770 booth and the wifi phone booth in Japan were wildly popular with attendees. So the concern you raise is a very real and very serious slippery-slope, but portions of that slope seem to be entirely acceptable to the IETF attendees. Here is a guess at the rule we should impose: A sponsor donating a sufficiently large amount may have a small booth for the sale of a single product that is a) unannounced or has been announced within the last [6] months, and b) appropriate for purchase and use by individuals. d/ -- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Jordi, On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 06:11:06PM -0600, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: We need to calculate the average cost of IETF hosted in all the continents, and that cost is the one that need to be put on the table by any sponsor/host regardless of where the meeting is actually going to be hosted. Why would we go for the average instead of the cheapest ? Overall price of a meeting location is an easier criteria to measure and more fair than all kind of political considerations. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
We need to calculate the average cost of IETF hosted in all the continents, and that cost is the one that need to be put on the table by any sponsor/host regardless of where the meeting is actually going to be hosted. my mind just boggled. or my bogometer just pegged. no, this does not seem at all fair. nor reasonable. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
What I think Jordi is saying is that he wants the US sponsors to subsidize the cost of the overseas meetings. At least that's what it works out to be At 07:27 PM 3/23/2006, Keith Moore wrote: We need to calculate the average cost of IETF hosted in all the continents, and that cost is the one that need to be put on the table by any sponsor/host regardless of where the meeting is actually going to be hosted. my mind just boggled. or my bogometer just pegged. no, this does not seem at all fair. nor reasonable. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
So you mean you think is reasonable and fair going for the cheapest even if every time more and more people can't attend because a government decides not to grant visas ? I'm feeling very embarrassed and concerned hearing that. I guess our concept of fairness is quite different. Precisely following your recommendation we are being politically driven, instead of openly-in-the-IETF-way driven. Regards, Jordi De: David Kessens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 16:24:34 -0800 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions Jordi, On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 06:11:06PM -0600, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: We need to calculate the average cost of IETF hosted in all the continents, and that cost is the one that need to be put on the table by any sponsor/host regardless of where the meeting is actually going to be hosted. Why would we go for the average instead of the cheapest ? Overall price of a meeting location is an easier criteria to measure and more fair than all kind of political considerations. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
What I think Jordi is saying is that he wants the US sponsors to subsidize the cost of the overseas meetings. At least that's what it works out to be Well, that's how I interpreted it also. What I found mind-boggling was the idea that companies that volunteer to host one meeting would somehow be willing to subsidize meetings held elsewhere. Last I knew it was already quite difficult to find sponsors, and somehow this doesn't seem like a good way to express our gratitude to them for their generosity. I have also been of the impression that our hotel bills and meeting fees were paying for most of the cost of our meetings, and that the sponsors were mostly providing local logistical support and paying for incidental costs - terminal room and wireless, t-shirts, subsidizing the social, etc. And since the meeting fees are more-or-less constant and independent of location, to me it seems like the US-only _attendees_ are already partially subsidizing the cost of overseas meetings. Which doesn't seem entirely fair but might be reasonable - unlike the idea to penalize _sponsors_ of US meetings. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
So you mean you think is reasonable and fair going for the cheapest even if every time more and more people can't attend because a government decides not to grant visas ? you're conflating two problems - cost and immigration laws. having fewer meetings in the US is a reasonable response to US immigration law. asking US sponsors to pay for the additional cost of holding those meetings outside of the US is not reasonable. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Except of course that many of the US Sponsors are in fact global companies anyway. Think about the list of recent and future sponsors. Ole Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 GSM: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, Keith Moore wrote: So you mean you think is reasonable and fair going for the cheapest even if every time more and more people can't attend because a government decides not to grant visas ? you're conflating two problems - cost and immigration laws. having fewer meetings in the US is a reasonable response to US immigration law. asking US sponsors to pay for the additional cost of holding those meetings outside of the US is not reasonable. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Keith, On Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 07:46:21PM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: I have also been of the impression that our hotel bills and meeting fees were paying for most of the cost of our meetings, and that the sponsors were mostly providing local logistical support and paying for incidental costs - terminal room and wireless, t-shirts, subsidizing the social, etc. These costs vary a lot as well: telco costs are very differrent in various locale, local staff cost is very different, social cost depends a lot on the location etc. David Kessens --- ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Except of course that many of the US Sponsors are in fact global companies anyway. Think about the list of recent and future sponsors. sure, but the sponsors get some leeway in where meetings are held (since we're more likely to hold a meeting in an area where someone is willing to sponsor it), and one of the factors in a sponsor's decision is probably cost. so if we say to our potential sponsors, sure you can host a meeting in city X, but you're going to have to pay for it as if it were in city Y, somehow that doesn't seem likely to fly. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, Keith Moore wrote: Except of course that many of the US Sponsors are in fact global companies anyway. Think about the list of recent and future sponsors. sure, but the sponsors get some leeway in where meetings are held (since we're more likely to hold a meeting in an area where someone is willing to sponsor it), and one of the factors in a sponsor's decision is probably cost. so if we say to our potential sponsors, sure you can host a meeting in city X, but you're going to have to pay for it as if it were in city Y, somehow that doesn't seem likely to fly. Bear in mind that potential sponsors like to host meetings where they actually have local presence. Having people on the ground for months before a meeting is a way better recipe for success then stagging it somewhere else and installing it on friday before the meeting started. If you liked the network for this meeting bear in mind that the people putting it together have been working on it since like october. joelja ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- -- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Not really. If you look to the recent sponsors, the current one and the next one, they are all European companies, hosting IETF in North America. Actually it can be presented in the other way around, as they host here, 50% of the attendees are getting indirectly subsidized by those sponsors decision to host here because their travel expenses are lower. So the cost for the participants from the rest of the world is higher. When these participants from the rest of the world want to host in their own regions, they have a higher sponsoring cost. On the other way around, most of the sponsors are typically big companies, which despite being from AP, EU or NA, basically try to make it cheaper to keep their cost down. Regards, Jordi De: Michael StJohns [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:34:21 -0500 Para: Keith Moore moore@cs.utk.edu, [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions What I think Jordi is saying is that he wants the US sponsors to subsidize the cost of the overseas meetings. At least that's what it works out to be At 07:27 PM 3/23/2006, Keith Moore wrote: We need to calculate the average cost of IETF hosted in all the continents, and that cost is the one that need to be put on the table by any sponsor/host regardless of where the meeting is actually going to be hosted. my mind just boggled. or my bogometer just pegged. no, this does not seem at all fair. nor reasonable. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
That will be correct if they are really US sponsors, which don't seem to be the case most of the time. Regards, Jordi De: Keith Moore moore@cs.utk.edu Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:49:16 -0500 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions So you mean you think is reasonable and fair going for the cheapest even if every time more and more people can't attend because a government decides not to grant visas ? you're conflating two problems - cost and immigration laws. having fewer meetings in the US is a reasonable response to US immigration law. asking US sponsors to pay for the additional cost of holding those meetings outside of the US is not reasonable. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Making the sponsorship cost in different regions shared among all the meetings will not significantly increase the sponsoring cost of those in US/Canada, but will actually help to host more meetings everywhere, according to the figures that I know. It has not been, at all, my intend to complain about the sponsors, absolutely on the contrary. It is great that companies like Nokia (in the case of this meeting), take the lead to solve the IETF problem of lack of adequate planning in the last couple of years to find venues and hosts. Is the only reason we can meet here this week, because Nokia. I'm convinced that this situation is going to improve with the new administrative structure, actually is already happening. To make it clear: Many thanks to Nokia and all the sponsors ! It is fantastic. I think there is a big misunderstanding from the participants about how much a meeting actually cost (and in different regions). What is clear is that: 1) The hotel bills may contribute a bit to the cost of the event, but not really so much as you believe, and seems to be very dependant on the location. 2) The fees only cover a small portion of the cost. 3) Long time ago the host responsibility was basically to provide the network/connectivity, terminal room and if they wish so, organize the social. This is no longer true and at least since Yokohama (I may be wrong), the host need to contribute with a big amount of money to make it possible. I will say that today we can't talk anymore about host, but sponsor(s). Regards, Jordi De: Keith Moore moore@cs.utk.edu Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 19:46:21 -0500 Para: Michael StJohns [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions What I think Jordi is saying is that he wants the US sponsors to subsidize the cost of the overseas meetings. At least that's what it works out to be Well, that's how I interpreted it also. What I found mind-boggling was the idea that companies that volunteer to host one meeting would somehow be willing to subsidize meetings held elsewhere. Last I knew it was already quite difficult to find sponsors, and somehow this doesn't seem like a good way to express our gratitude to them for their generosity. I have also been of the impression that our hotel bills and meeting fees were paying for most of the cost of our meetings, and that the sponsors were mostly providing local logistical support and paying for incidental costs - terminal room and wireless, t-shirts, subsidizing the social, etc. And since the meeting fees are more-or-less constant and independent of location, to me it seems like the US-only _attendees_ are already partially subsidizing the cost of overseas meetings. Which doesn't seem entirely fair but might be reasonable - unlike the idea to penalize _sponsors_ of US meetings. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Keith, Is difficult to calculate with concrete figures, but it will not be as X and Y, but a point in the middle. It will also be a more open process. Today, in my opinion, having to negotiate with each possible sponsor in secret, is a broken concept, and against our openness. I agree that there should be some degree of flexibility, but in the order of 10% or so, not 100%. Regards, Jordi De: Keith Moore moore@cs.utk.edu Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 20:05:37 -0500 Para: Ole Jacobsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions Except of course that many of the US Sponsors are in fact global companies anyway. Think about the list of recent and future sponsors. sure, but the sponsors get some leeway in where meetings are held (since we're more likely to hold a meeting in an area where someone is willing to sponsor it), and one of the factors in a sponsor's decision is probably cost. so if we say to our potential sponsors, sure you can host a meeting in city X, but you're going to have to pay for it as if it were in city Y, somehow that doesn't seem likely to fly. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
It will also be a more open process. Today, in my opinion, having to negotiate with each possible sponsor in secret, is a broken concept, and against our openness. I'm a lot more concerned about openness in IETF protocol development. some kinds of negotiations really do need to be done in secret. IMHO, having protocol engineers who know next to nothing about meeting logistics try to dictate such terms is a broken concept. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Actually this can be seen as an additional way to bring the sponsor local cost down. There are several factors: 1) We bring the overall cost down by adequate anticipated planning. 2) The potential host prefers to host in the place where they have better local support, is more convenient for them, or whatever. 3) The monetary contribution is the same in all the locations. 4) The local expenses, moving people, etc., get down because the sponsor is choosing the venue of their preference. At the end the venue selection is not biased by the cost difference, because the sponsor want to bring down (3), which actually could mean increase their non-monetary cost (4). The results is also better for all (even participants), because the logistics and local-planning is done more coherently. Regards, Jordi De: Joel Jaeggli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 17:11:13 -0800 (PST) Para: Keith Moore moore@cs.utk.edu CC: Ole Jacobsen [EMAIL PROTECTED], ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, Keith Moore wrote: Except of course that many of the US Sponsors are in fact global companies anyway. Think about the list of recent and future sponsors. sure, but the sponsors get some leeway in where meetings are held (since we're more likely to hold a meeting in an area where someone is willing to sponsor it), and one of the factors in a sponsor's decision is probably cost. so if we say to our potential sponsors, sure you can host a meeting in city X, but you're going to have to pay for it as if it were in city Y, somehow that doesn't seem likely to fly. Bear in mind that potential sponsors like to host meetings where they actually have local presence. Having people on the ground for months before a meeting is a way better recipe for success then stagging it somewhere else and installing it on friday before the meeting started. If you liked the network for this meeting bear in mind that the people putting it together have been working on it since like october. joelja ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf -- -- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2 ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
Re: Making IETF happening in different regions
Let me rephrase it for a better understanding: I agree that some kind of confidentiality in the negotiation is required, but the common starting point for the overall sponsorship cost should be openly well-known. I think this thread has demonstrated the general ignorance about the real costs, which in turn, doesn't help to take a good decision about the right model to follow. The confidentiality is needed mainly because small sponsorship variations due to local specifics. Moreover, is ridiculous to keep the process secret when people who may be involved or informed about the negotiation being part of IETF bodies, and should keep the confidentiality about that, may be spreading rumors before they are facts. I also agree with you, I'm very concerned and noticed this very recently, about the lack of openness in IETF protocol development, which seem to turn into secret negotiations and long-time planned WG guidance. Regards, Jordi PS: I may be wrong, but I think that I know slightly more about meeting logistics and negotiation than probably the average protocol engineer, having organized entirely myself 3 events for up to 800 people, some others for about half that people, and participated in all the details for a 3500+ event, in addition to several international exhibitions. I'm missing an IETF itself though :-(. De: Keith Moore moore@cs.utk.edu Responder a: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fecha: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:48:11 -0500 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: ietf@ietf.org ietf@ietf.org Asunto: Re: Making IETF happening in different regions It will also be a more open process. Today, in my opinion, having to negotiate with each possible sponsor in secret, is a broken concept, and against our openness. I'm a lot more concerned about openness in IETF protocol development. some kinds of negotiations really do need to be done in secret. IMHO, having protocol engineers who know next to nothing about meeting logistics try to dictate such terms is a broken concept. Keith ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf ** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Barcelona 2005 Global IPv6 Summit Slides available at: http://www.ipv6-es.com This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. ___ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
